I have two PMR30’s and a CMR30. No issues with any of them. You do have to be aware of how you load the magazine but that is covered well in the owners manual. I think people who have had problems probably skipped reading the manual. I have always had an affinity for .22 WMR ever since my dad bought me a Savage 63M in 1971. Great video Sootch.
Agreed, very thorough and objective review. A really nice bonus in having the combo PMR/CMR30 is that the same magazines work in both. They each come with two mags, so you can have 120 rounds ready to hand when you buy the pair.
A friend of mine is a Kel-Tec dealer and when the PMR30 came out I shot his and had to have one. Some time later they changed the barrel design and he told me to give them a call and they'll send me the new barrel. After confirming that I had the first generation they shipped me the new barrel without any questions. It's a fun pistol. I've never thought about using it for self defense but 30 rounds they'd definitely be leaking to say the least. 😂👌
This is the best produced video I have ever viewed. Not to mention great content. Right to the point. No wasted time. Thank you. I think I’ll subscribe.
sold my Kel Tec after the first day on the shooting yard. Bullet stucked in magazin, feeding problems every 2 nd shot. So i guess you didnt shoot the gun for 8 years.
OK, "Let's Get Started", and we, as educated, experience Gun People, know that S&W is a Great gun Manufacturer and IMO, this should be a Great Tribute to Kel-Tec, for being a Great Innovative Company! They have pushed the envelope with their PMR30 into the future of Gun Manufacturing, with their Cutting Edge Design! So having said this, it's no wonder that S&W has introduced this "Look Alike Gun" at this time! The PMR30 has Now become a solid performer with their 30 round, 22 Magnum Gun and within the recent past, many other Gun Manufacturers have followed this Trend! I'm quite sure that S&W's Gun will be a very successful 22 magnum gun BUT the Price is twice as much as the PMR30! At this Time, I think I might buy another PMR30 and then I will have Two Great 22 magnum Guns! 😎
Kel-Tec wins for 2 reasons: 1 weight, the pmr30 is much lighter and easier to carry, and 2, price, the rrp on the Kel Tec is half the other. Their performance, when each is properly tuned and maintained, is neck and neck.
I bought a PMR 30 6 years ago. Not bad after significant gun smithing. But out of the box, the failure to feed was one in every mag load. I liked the 22 WMR round, so I bought the Rock Island 22 XTM. I don't know if Sootch00 does not know about this gun, or if dislikes it and decided not to mention it. The 22 XTM is a 1911 style gun and has never failed me. It's also dead-on accurate.
Nope, not the problem. Magazines fell out because of poor magazine and latch tolerances (they did not fully seat). Slide did not run true and would occasionally stick just before lock-up. Double feeding was common. With lots of patience, and many trips to the range, the problems were solved. While I am a machinist and could fix many of the problems, I also had a very good gunsmith at my gun range. With time and patience, we got it to run well on 40 grain bullets. Never able to get 30 or 50 grain bullets to run reliably. Google Keltec PMR 30 Problems and you will get numerous websites and RU-vid tutorials on fixing the problems.
@@hallhall5777 i own one and it runs great and many other people can say the same, it can run any load I've put in it and i have had none of those problems, it just seems like they need to fix some quality control problems. You got a faulty gun from factory.
Kel-Tec is FANTASTIC at looking at the market, saying "Why isn't anyone doing (insert wacky idea here)?" and then making it, usually resulting in other manufacturers making a more refined version some years later.
Wait, what… RU-vid doesn’t allow for 30 round magazines? 🤪 I somehow missed that… So, they arbitrarily put the count at 25? The silliness is just from beyond…. I’ve watched dozens of rifle reviews and haven’t heard of that. These people are utterly ridiculous. 😆
@@sootch00 😁 I’ve been watching you for some time… once upon a time, umm, a friend of mine… rode up to Phoenix to pick up an AK lot from an AF MP… and, I had watched a video on Tapco AK mags. If that tells you how long (…I don’t even wanna know Sootch 😆). I eventually subscribed maybe 6,7 years ago. Point being, I saw the “Golden Age” of YT gun channels, and the dark times started a few years ago… I guess we’re now in the stupid times…. 🤣
Some genius at YT is probably thinking ha ha they wont be able to shoot guns that take 30rd mags. Or they wont go to the trouble of fixing them so they can’t load 30 or bother to get smaller mags. 😂
@@CJ4S147 Or that guns that shoot 30 rounds only take 30 round mags… one of the congresswomen, I remember she was under the impression that mags were like disposable cartridges, like duracell batteries or something… and she’s up there arguing, “We desperately need this ban, so that they use up the available stock and can’t buy anymore- and then we will be rid of these high capacity bullets forever.” Everyone is all confused, it slowly starts to dawn on people what she means, and her colleagues are like, 🤦🏼♀️ oh god, noooo… 🤣🤣 and one of them leans over and tells her, “Um, they’re reusable.” And she’s like, wow this worse than I thought, well we need to ban those, too…. 🤣
Something a lot of people who review these guns don't mention is the amount of power you LOSE when going from a full length rifle to a short barreled pistol. .22wmr is a rifle cartridge with slow burning rifle powder that achieves it's maximum potential pressure in barrels of around 20-25 inches, and when you only have 3-4 inches of barrel to burn that powder you lose a LOT of power. It's why you always hear about how .22wmr handguns spit out huge fireballs, those fireballs are all the unburnt propellant being wasted because the bullet left the barrel too soon to utilize it all. The advertised velocities you see on the box are high ball estimates achieved with extra long barrels. CCI Maxi Mag ammo from a pistol the size of a PMR-30 will only get you around ~1200-1300 feet/second, which is hardly more powerful than 22lr CCI Mini Mags from a full length rifle. Now don't get me wrong, 30 rounds of .22 cal traveling at 1300fps towards a bad guy is a lot of firepower, but suddenly it's not 30 rounds of .22 cal traveling at 2000fps, and certainly isn't "Twice as powerful as the 22lr" even when you consider the lost velocity from shooting 22lr out of a handgun. I've heard people describe carrying the PMR-30 and similar pistols as "Having an ar-15 in my pocket" where it's really much more analogous to "Having a 10/22 in my pocket".
Man I just realized S&W are playing checkers not chess. They're basically making their own versions of what keltec did 10-13 years ago, a folding carbine, a bullpup shotgun and this.
Lmfaoooo not even close your attention skills are lax bro...have the kel the wmp and the mp (had the amt and the grendel) by farrrrrr the mp wins the 22mag race...the only thing the mp has in common with the pmr 30 is that it's in 22wmr and it holds 30 rounds. .thats it !! Lol...the mp is gas operated pistol just like their 5.7 but in this format its delayed blowback the barrel inside the sleeve doubles as your gas piston that has its gas checks built in...the pmr is poor mans blowback ...the mp requires zero buffer inserts unlike the pmr 30 and wmp because due to that gas system there'd no need for said buffers on the mp ...the mp has a stainless barrel(way better durability ) the pmr 30 ? Carbon ...the mp has a western mag release ..the pmr 30 European on the bottom...the mp optic ready no plates needed , the pmr30 ? A joke to even use a red dot on em by the time u add all the bs...the mp ? 1 piece frame ... the pmr30 cheap ass screw together frame ..mp integrated metal feedramp ...mp plastic trash feed ramp that needs mcarbo 2nd gen feed ramp to kake it run like it should have outta the gate (have 2 pmrs that took multiple trips to kel and then finally macrbo and me using lapping compound to get it reliable with 30 rd mag dumps) ..mp mag dump outta the gate and 4k rds in and shoots legit every 22wmr I can find ..keltec hornady 45 csd hornady 30, federal 50, federal punch only Remington 33gr only it absolutes hates cci ...mp shoots em all, even that junk armscor ammo ....thats like saying because Ford brought out the model A the porsche 911 copied them when the onky commonality is the 4 tires.... Sub2000 and smith ain't even a comparison either the kel they never improved their design top folding effing up your optic when smith got it right outta the gate n made it fold sideways so your optic could say in place when folded unlike the sub2000 Have 2 ksgs kept 1 got the smith , again no comparison... They're all so differently designed theres not a fraction of a chance of patent infringement coming into play ...by your insight every striker fired polymer designed pistol is by sig hk fn canik Springfield smith are all copying glock 😂😂😂😂 when again they're all different ..lack of education on a subject breeds ignorance .
Smith & Wesson didn't copy the designs but they definitely hopped in on the market interest that was shown for certain KelTecs. Nothing wrong with that. They can do it better, and there's more demand than Keltec can supply...
Shot S&W for the first time today….what a blast! All the guys I went with had a ball shooting it, this thing is a tad driver! We were grouping 3” circles at 20 yards with no effort…there is really no recoil. My new favorite fun Gun!
If S&W makes a folding version I would buy one as it stands KelTec makes the CMR carbine which uses the same mags as the PMR. S&W could have 2 winners if they made folding versions of 22WMR and 5.7
Good to see more semi auto’s in 22 magnum… I’ve always been fascinated with this round but only have it in a single action revolver and in a bolt action rifle but I think it’s an underrated round… especially from a rifle! I really do want one of these semi auto’s in 22 mag though especially with that kind of capacity
Yes 22 wmr is so underrated. I love my pmr, it's one of my favorite handguns (right behind my 22 tcm). The pmr 30 is insanely light. After apx 500 rounds I had 2 malfunctions that I chalk up to lack of lubrication. 30 rounds of 22 wmr will get the job done.
@@brandonjohnson2493 22 Magnum In a rifle is good for small game, I've seen people take coyotes and hogs with the 22 Magnum. The pistol is good for practicing and self-defense. For those that say 22 Magnum is not good for self-defense I lay this challenge out for them- Get 10 yards away and let's see what happens first, you get to me before I empty my mag.
@@michaelhennessey8927 nice! I came really close to buying a nice used PMR at my local gun store a few years ago but ended up buying something else… every time I see a review for one I always wish I’d gotten it
Good job, as always. I have both and you've reached a fair conclusion. Doing M*CARBO upgrades on Kel-Tec's got me into working on guns. The S&W with optics cut got me into red dots. This is how we evolve...
Have all 3 the wmp the pmr 30 and the mp 22wmr ..by leaps n bounds the smith mp and mind u i have over 6k thru the pmr 20 bit that took alot of parts to get it to run those 6k and 3 trips to keltec...the mp is already halfway there at 3.3k and 0 issues through 30 33 40 45 50 gr all in same magazine without a hiccup ...of i could only buy one of the 3 itd be the smith mp22wmr hands down if that helps .@@Johnz0rrr
The weight also plays a factor in mitigating recoil as well since the PMR-30s empty weight is 14 oz. vs the Smith and Wesson at 20. 6 ounces is a big difference on any handgun.
Owned my Kel Tec since 2019. Instruction manual says to use 40gr bullets. Have used 50gr with no problem. 36gr and under will turn it into a single shot. To make loading really easy buy a mag loader. I really like rhe fact that it and the carbine take the same mags. All in all a fun gun. A optical sight is easy to mount. I mounted a Burris Fast Fire 4. 22mag ammo is dirtier that reg 22 , so I field strip and clean after every shooting session.. no matter how many rounds I fire thru it that day.
Two things. 1: They're both delayed blowback. The barrel on the KelTec floats back just as much as the S&W. It's not as fancy, but it still keeps everything sealed up for just a bit longer. 2: You demonstrated loading the PMR by sliding the round all the way from the front to the back. There's slight cut outs halfway down the feed lips. That's where you should be starting. Makes things so much easier. I can only assume this is the mistake people make when they complain about loading the PMR-30.
Superb review of both competitors, but gotta put more scrutiny on ammo and the mags. I love the Kel Tec but the ones I have fired all had major problems with anything lower than 40 grain. The two S&Ws I fired had no problems with any grain weight from 30 to 50gr. The PMR30 magazine is very sensitive if accidentally dropped when loaded, as the ammo may shift and cause malfunctions. The S&W mag is much more durable and reliable in that regard.
Huuuge Kel-Tec fan. Never had a problem with the 5 I have, some people hate on them but those guys often can't even drive a stick shift car. That said, I bought the S&W. Very happy so far. If Kel-Tec had a metal one I would have bought. Now this is my 30 rd dragonslayer and my main carry with S&W 351c as a backup. Love my CMR30 and would love a Smith Wesson clone of that!!
I've owned about the same number of Kel-Tecs, shot many rounds through each and never had a problem with any of them either. I'm just not sure what being able to drive a manual has to do with having a valid opinion. Speaking of opinions, I think the hate toward Kel-Tec over the years has been largely undeserved. To fix it, they should remove the Kel-Tec wording from the gun and put Sig Sauer on it instead. This way the user will think "wow, a new Sig that's actually reliable!" 😁
@@TheLostGrid I'd be more inclined to say "can't change their own oil." I'm also a huge Kel-tec fan. Got my PMR and Su-16b the same day, and love 'em both. The SU-16 was amusing as Knight's Armament had just announced their lightest AR-15 yet when I bought the SU-16. The KA was ~$2600, and I got the SU-16 for $450. . . and the SU-16 was half a lb lighter than the KA to boot.
Its a great fun gun. Love mine, I see some upgrades that might make the gun slightly more reliable. But for $250.00 I will pick up a Taurus TX22 and love it as well.
I have the PMR30 Gen 2 and the M&P 5.7. The annoying problem with the M&P 5.7 and 22mag is the gap between the frame and the slide at the muzzle end. It doesn’t affect operation just freaking ugly!!
I have had mine many years. Have done some great mods on it and it’s super accurate and fun to shoot. Not to mention cheap to shoot. That said It used to malfunction at times. Rounds would hang on feed ramp etc. The red dot on the slide may be the culprit. I polished my feed ramp and that seemed to fix it. MCarbo makes a red dot mount also that doesn’t sit on slide. That weight can be a problem in these guns as .22 mag doesn’t have huge amount of blow back power apparently.
One advantage that the PMR 30 has over the S&W is that it has a big brother, the CMR 30. It uses the same ammo and the same magazine wrapped up in a collapsible semi-auto rifle able to fit in a backpack. Pay close attention to the ammo you though, You must have at least 40gr. ammo and preferably 45gr. to 50gr. for it to be really effective and eject properly. There is also a great little loader available which helps to keep magazine mistakes to a minimum. Over all, and for the money, I love my PMR and CMR weapons. Dirty Harry, they are not, but you don't want to get in front of something which can put at least 25 holes in you very quickly. Each shot may not be much, but the aggregate total can be devastating...
I own both. I have the Smith, a stock PMR,p and 2 PMRs with the full MCarbo upgrades kit. Hands down the upgraded PMRs are the best of them all. The smith is second only because the mags are so easy to load, followed in third by the stock PMR, again because of the mags. With the MCarbo kit the PMR will shoot ANY ammo without a hitch... even the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel. The Smith's TEMPO barrel is a neat idea but I don't feel it reducing the recoil much, especially with the mild 22WMR. What the TEMPO system does do is dirty the gun up really fast. So dirty that after 300ish rounds you'll start having feeding issues. Which ever way you go buy lots and lots of ammo because they are both extremely fun to shoot and they shoot fast. 30 rd mags empty in no time so you will go through the ammo like crazy.
You trying to convince a 2 piece plastic pistol that is FAMOUS for jamming saying it's better then the S&W Tempo Barrel System is laughable!!! Enjoy your cheap pistol, I know your a lying fool because if you had a S&W .22 mag you wouldn't be spitting diareah
I run both the PMR and S&W. I spent alot of time and money with MCARBO mods on the PMR and have experimented with different ammunition. Though it has gotten more reliable with the feed issues after these mods it still is not 100%. I admit they are easy to clear, a simple pull back of the slide and the round will chamber but rarely am I able to run a full magazine without at least one FTF. I was excited to get the M&P. Hoping for 100% reliable operation. First few magazines had some FTF issue also. Not real happy. I decided to take some of what I learned with the KelTec and MCARBO and did one simple thing. Polished the feed ramp. Since that time 100% reliable operation. Easily have fired closing in on 5000 rounds no FTF issue what-so-ever. The puppy sings at the range. I am still tinkering with the PMR and hope someday to get it to keep up the the M&P but hands down I would suggest the M&P over the PMR from the start. It maybe a bit more but with all the money I have spent on PMR/MCARBO mods the PMR's cost has exceeded the base price of the M&P.
At 5ft 6in tall and 155 lbs and small hands … I bought a kel-tec .22 mag for my personal carry … I spent some time putting lots of different ammo through it …. I found that federal ammo 50 grn was the best … it was just plain awesome…. I found that 20 rounds in the mag was the way to go ….it’s So good it’s all I use in my .22 mag rifle by savage …. Extremely effective and accurate… the handgun is so light you don’t know you have one with you … I do not have any jamming issues .. but I buy top federal ammo ….. I’ve shot some living creatures with this gun … head shots lives the creatures dead with the federal 50 grn going straight through their skulls 😁👍👍🏆
I own the kel tec pmr and cmr and had nothing but ftf issues. Disassembled you can see how cheaply it is manufactured. Never dry fire these guns!!!! I now own the Walther and it is a very high quality product compared to the kel tec. I’m planning to buy the smith and Wesson soon.
I have a PMR and it’s a blast, but it jams pretty regularly. I would never use it as my carry. I also spent $200 upgrading the internals on the PMR which helped dramatically, but now I’m $500 in and it still jams. I’d love to pick up the S&W
Had a PMR 30 for a while, it was fun til it blew up on me one day. Shattered part of the polymer rail and blew some light shrapnel back at me. They fixed it then I sold it. No thanks.
You said it. You can see all the way through the S&W. It's not a problem with function, but it bugs me too. If you look closely, the gap gets bigger towards the end of the barrel. Probably has something to do with the polymer casting.
LOL people fixate on a gun's looks but can't hit the broad side of a planet....at least their gun looks pretty while their excuses get increasingly creative.
One other noteworthy difference between the two is the weird grip angle of the PMR30, which is more straight up-and-down, sort of like an old-school Tokarev TT-33 or Norinco 213, whereas the M&P has, well, a typical M&P sort of grip angle (more 1911-ish, not a more pronounced angle like a Glock). The PMR30 is SUPER finicky about what ammo it likes, how the mags get loaded, and just whatever direction the wind is blowing that day; my Walther WMP, however, just plain WORKS, regardless of what ammo I feed it. (Most of the folks complaining about the WMP's reliability also have an red dot optic mounted, which changes things and makes it less reliable with lighter-weight bullets.) If the M&P is anything like the WMP in terms of reliability, I might hafta get one.
Have the wmp with vortex venom no issues ..have the pmr n ur rt outta the 43 in my armory it's by far the finickiest pistol...the smith been flawless thru 650 rds so far n great practice gun for the 5.7 by em..
I had the firing pin on my PMR30 break. I really wasn't impressed with the type of steel they use. Hard, but very brittle steel. I felt like they could have stepped down on the hardness a bit, especially given the shape of the firing pin. Makes me reluctant to want to rely on it. I'm considering the M&P .22mag. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it functions more reliably and the parts are probably more robust.
Does KelTec still use a flat piece of steel for the firing pin? What does S&W use for the firing pin? Had a PMR 30 that broke several pins, consequently was not very reliable. Just wondering if they upgraded on the newer models.
I had the same problem on my first PLM 30 they were round firing pins and we’re prone to breaking. I do have a bout five extras somewhere but I upgraded to the new PMR 30 and love it. No problem so far.
I'm rather skeptical that those rounds are going anywhere close to the advertised velocity out of a sub-5" BBL. BBTI suggests they're probably going closer to 1300fps, same as a 22LR out of a rifle
We like .22wmr, have a couple revolvers that can handle the caliber, but even today I just have doubts about that long, skinny case loading/ejecting on a 100% basis, and the rare dud kinda leaves us cold...if we buy another .22wmr it will be a long gun, where the round really shines...all that said, I can understand the enjoyment either of these guns can deliver, as the caliber has a nice little 'thump' that .22lr doesn't have...
S&W has really been copying everyone's homework. The reason why I accept that is because all they've been copying are concepts that I like and want to see more of in the market, making the five-seven affordable and three of Kel-Tec's more reliable, using better materials and addressing some opinions on choices like the sub-2000 folding vertically for a premium. In the end I'd still go with Kel-Tec because of affordability for a plinking and hiking gun, but now even the snobs will be looking forward to more guns in .22 mag
I own 2 PMR-30s. Both are fitted with M-Carbo kits. They are very reliable as long as you use a quality magazine loader and keep them cleaned and lubed. I plan on buying the S&W as well.
I just love the fact how they compare such fine firearms, i got a pmr and a cmr and it couldn't be a better duo for something light that packs a punch, 10/10 for keltec making these copycats make different versions but all in all nice firearms
REALLY wish the S&W had fiber optic tubes in the rear sight. That’s the ONLY thing the Kel Tec does better other than price….BUT, by the time you buy the MCARBO kit to make the Kel Tec run reliably, you’ll spend WAY MORE for what is essentially a plastic almost Snap-Together gun! Glad the S&W came out….that’ll be my purchase for sure now!
The AMT 22 auto mag is a great gun. I have one. I like it better because it’s all steel. The drawback it doesn’t hold 30 rounds. But it is still the best of the three.
just look at all that unburned powder pouring out of the barrel, yes, the .22 magnum is twice the .22 LR. but it requires a rifle length barrel to achieve that velocity, I knew that back in 1982 from a champion marksman at our range in Texas, you need rifle powder and pressures to make a real magnum handgun, not just throwing a rifle cartridge in a handgun using slow burning flake powder!
Call it what it is people instead of polymer. It’s plastic. But they don’t call it plastic because it makes a gun sound cheap. Polymer makes the gun sound more sophisticated.
again, make the S&W in .30 carbine with a roller lock delay like the H&K system and a compensator and I'll buy one. the 5.7 is a semi middle ground idea but when you need real world power, slow burning flake powder VS. rifle powder means you need a real rifle type round like the .30 carbine to make REAL magnum power. so, S&W make a modern version of one of the best handguns ever made, the AMT .30 carbine AUTOMAG!
i have a gen 1 sub2k and love it and have purchased some items from mcarbo for it. my wife and i had the pf9 and p11, both of which would cause a hot spot on my trigger finger with that big curve, i have large hands/fingers. would like to try the pmr30 to see how the trigger feels on my finger, i like kel-tec's innovative style.
Personally, I lean towards the Kel-Tec PMR-30. The higher capacity magazine and lightweight design make it stand out for me, especially considering the .22 Magnum caliber. It seems like a versatile option for both self-defense and recreational shooting
Fired the PMR. CC a V2 Shield 9mm. I can see how the half-slide design leads to more recoil. OTOH, I can't trust a firearm I can see through. Perhaps it's just the gun in your test, Sootch.
Nice review. I have both and at this point im not sure which I like better.....I'm not sure one is better than the other, they are just different. I was just about to get a WMP when the Smith came out. I still probably will because I like 22 mag.
I’d love to have either one, I’ve become fascinated with the 22 magnum round. I keep hearing they aren’t enough for self defense but I’m not buying that. Out of a rifle especially it definitely punches above it’s weight class.
I've owned the pmr30 for 3 years now. It has jammed every time i have shot it. I have the Mcarbo upgrades installed. Armalaser, thredded barrel, muzzle break and Talon grips. So it is a sexy paper weight. Every type of ammo has been through it. All jam. I also own the p17. It has NEVER had a misfire ever, so go figure
I’ve had my PMR30 for 2 years now and absolutely love it. It’s my backpacking gun . It feels like a toy pistol in the hand it’s so light. I feel the fiber optic rear sight is a definite plus over the S&W. I’m not crazy though about the rubber buffer, or having to replace one every so often. If Keltec went under ( God forbid), you’d own a paperweight
@@TheGoodguy68 I was thinking long term, like decades down the road. But the more I think about about it, that could be any part off any gun. That was the only negative thing I could say about the PMR30.
I have access to a pmr 30. Love it, my favorite gun to shoot, $16.50 a box makes it relatively cheap to shoot, the accuracy is very good..Ear protection is definitely recommended....😅😅
I Love S&W but that barrel tube system made up my mind . Kel-Tek would b my choice . I've seen other reviews n the Kel-Tek will run thousands of rounds without issue ! Thank you for the video . Hello fellow Patriots ! Love and blessings to all .
