Here is another RU-vid from Kirkham Motorsports University. Here we show you how we took a solid, 386 pound block of aluminum and machined it into a 427 FE engine block. www.KirkhamMotorsports.com
I could watch you do this all day long. I'm a retired CNC Machinist living in the Space Coast of Florida. Many of my parts went up in space for satellites and such. I do miss working on them. Ran quite a few Haas and others. I so loved setting them up and getting a first piece off to see what the final product looked like. Great work on those blocks.
Thanks! I love making things! We are working on a crazy part right now. I'll work on getting a video of it up for everyone to see. It is 80 inches long!
As a machinist who has done large complex parts, I can tell you, this stuff ain't easy. The opportunity for mistake, or error is extremely vast. And 1 simple thing, at the end of the entire ordeal can totally screw up everything.
As an ex machinist and tool crib/tool ordering person I can appreciate the work you are doing! You were hanging some of those endmills way out there which tend to snap (Goodbye $3-400 each). Great design and programming!
Thanks for the kind words. I sincerely appreciate them. 30 hours of CNC 30 hours of CAD 50 hours of programming. We spend a lot of time programming because we program in all the deburring passes and champhers to make a nice part.
We sent the block out to be line bored at an engine shop. The cam bearings are all the same size. We took out material to save weight (it is easier than going on a diet :) We are using 6061. It is the best all around alloy for this application (corrosion resistance, strength at temperature, availability, etc).
Great question. Cast iron sleeves have been used for decades in engines. Cast iron holds oil well and wears for a long, long time. There are some exotic sleeves today that are used as well-- such as Nikisil.
@billg69gmc Thanks for the kind words. I sincerely appreciate them. 30 hours of CNC 30 hours of CAD 50 hours of programming. We spend a lot of time programming because we program in all the deburring passes and champhers to make a nice part.
Thanks :) Most people really do want to add to the discussion. I certainly don't know everything and have learned quite a bit listening to other people with more experience that I have. Thanks for the kind words :)
yes i got 4 1600oz steppers for my 2 stroke big block project, i might need 5 axis not sure as i have to run a baffled sealed airtight crankcase for scavenging. most 427 can un dirested oil injection and are popper valved 2 stroks with 2 VRP pumps. Most today can run XD-100 ETEC BRP 2 stroke oil with out problems ans most 572 CID 2 stroks do anyways. I might get bigger 4200 ounch in stepper motors with drives and board for more handleing for the big 2 stroke!
I have always wanted to work in a shop like this. I don't know anything about machining, but I would love to do assembly work in a place like this. I have been a mechanic for several years, and I used to build engines from kits, and rebuild engines for lots of customers. Now I work on motorcycles and ATV's, along with small engines. LOVE being a mechanic.
We have always wanted a horizontal. It certainly would be better for a block. That is a great idea to use the lathe for relieving end mills. We will get an insert and try it. We used the mill this time because we had it handy and were back up and running again in about 15 minutes. Great suggestion :) Thanks!
Great answer. There are other exotic steels that have been used over the years. Cast iron is the best combination of wear, cost, function, ease of manufacture, lots of experience, etc.
lazy! when is someone going to make a decent flat 8? you'll probably have to use a different config for the suspension, but once you get that ironed out, you will have the best cg you've ever had. SOOOO worth it. please do it. the world needs this.
The finished block is an engineering work of art! I'd have that as a centerpiece in my foyer. But I'm sure it would be vetoed in a flash. Oh well, centerpiece in my mancave it is, then! Beautifully done!
@fixerdave, Great question! We rough machine the block and leave lots of material on for a "roughing finish pass." Then we machine the block again and leave about 0.010" for a finish pass. Then we do the final pass. Because the block is free to rotate on the pillow block end of the "A" axis, it twists and stress relieves every time the pillow block brake releases and the block rotates. We connected the pillow block brake to the same air brake that is used on the rotary axis.
I have always wanted to own a Kirkham SC 427 - your cars are freaking beautiful. And then when i heard that you were going to start machining your own 427 aluminum blocks and just thought these guys are serious motor heads. I may not own one, but i appreciate your interpretation of Shelby era of cars!
Very very impressive! I love the fact that you guys' use HAAS's -many people believe that they're just cheap, throw-away machines; when they're easily capable of achieving tolerances within tenths. I can't imagine how long it took to program and plan something like this. Most aerospace parts I've programmed/made don't even touch this. Kudos!
Yes, all material moves and stress relieves as you machine it. We roughed everything out and left substantial material all over so it could stress relieve. We then did 2 finishing passes.
I grew up in small town with 65 HEMI Belvadere; 63 & half 427 Med.Riser 2x4barrel & my 69 Z-28.After FIVE motors I could stay up with 427.LOL.Friend has "California Flash" 68 Dart " Race HEMI " in his collection.Butch Leal came to see his old car.Welded at Restoration shop with high school friend ,Painter & meta-man.English Wheel hard to master!! Love all 60s Hot Rods.
@xevious2501 Thanks. Yes, all the chips are recycled. It takes much less energy to remelt chips than to make aluminum from oxide. I don't know of anyone who machines at extreme temperatures. I am not sure how you would keep the part at any extreme temperature for any meaningful length of time as the machining process is quite long. We take thermal expansion into consideration when machining tolerances. I am excited to look into any info you might have on Ferrari's process.
Yep, sometimes you have to use things on hand to get the job done. I've relieved endmills now and again using a harig on a surface grinder. This looks like a cool shop to work at.
With billet you can make what ever you want and you are not stuck with a casting. With a casting you can cast hollow areas with cores. Castings are generally weaker--especially at working temperature. Billet lets you be really creative. We have lots of Haas equipment. We just bought a huge GR-712 and we love it.
That truly is a work of art, the stuff of dreams, and job well done! I can only imagine what it took to get to this stage of manufacturing and the time and start up costs must have been steep, but as the old saying goes, fortune favors the bold. Simply amazing and great video!
Thats a way to make a BB 2 stroke. i got a few 1600 oz spepper and might need bigger but the 1600oz in stepper should handle a big block od aluminum for a BB 2 stroke ove about 600 CID. it needs bafled crankcases and mor bore spacing, this 427 is a poppet valved 2 stroke with direct oil injection though that is show here.
Thank you for your kind words. The block indeed DOES distort all over the place as the aluminum stress relieves. We have to rough it with about 0.065" of material all over, then do a pre-finish pass and leave 0.010" before we final finish machine the block. I think the entire process was 25-30 hours.
Good questions! We bored the camshaft 1/2 way from both ends with the same size bores. Many variables are taken into account when making a block--yield, stiffness, etc. The strength of 7075 falls off quickly at the operating temperature of the block. The block dyno'd at 630 hp. It has 4000 miles on it and two track days where it ran for almost 6 hours straight each time. No one was kind to the motor on the track. Thanks for asking. Happy to answer any questions :)
@irainco, Great question. Billet aluminum is very strong and resistant to softening at the temperatures encountered in a running engine. Also, with a block of aluminum, we don't have to make a foundry pattern and wait for a foundry to cast the block--only to have to machine it later anyway. We can test the design and make changes quite easily and we are not locked into a casting pattern. This works very well for short runs of parts.
@dethmetalderique GREAT question! 7075 is a great alloy for high strength--at certain temperatures. However, 7075 has poor strength at the higher temperatures encountered in an engine. 6061 is actually stronger at engine temperatures. 7075 also exhibits very poor corrosion resistance. 7075 is also very susceptible to stress corrosion cracking. 6061 has far higher resistance to corrosion.
There are advantages to castings and advantages to forgings. Forgings are stronger and have much better strength at operating temperature. Castings let you make hollow parts (water jackets, etc). We solved the water jacket problem by using wet sleeves. Castings also have serious porosity, core-shift, and inclusion problems.
Awesome! Working on engines like that must be exciting! plus nerve recking for both programmer and set-up guy! LOL!! You definitely have some talent in your shop! Good luck on all your projects! Thank you for sharing this video!
@522design We can do a block every couple of days if we wanted to. However, we just got the first block back from the dyno and we are now about to test it in a car. We'll keep you updated.
Thanks for some great comments. The block dyno'd at something like 630 horse power. It has run several track days going all out--all day--with no problems. Many blocks have water between the sleeves (F1 blocks are made like this). Like most things, there are advantages and disadvantages to blocks with siamesed bores and blocks with water around the bores. We chose to have wet sleeves to improve the cooling (a problem in FE motors). Thanks!
Nice engine block. I like these Haas machines. I would recommend using diamond wheels for relieving endmills instead of CBN. The diamond wheels last a lot longer and cut faster and easier.
Hey there, Mike! I've been trying to reply to your comments on my videos (very, very kind of you and so appreciated)! For some reason, it won't let me reply to your comments, so I am posting here, hope you get the notification because I want you to know how grateful I am that you took the time to look up "The Child" and that you have fond memories of our great times at NTC Orlando. It certainly was my favorite gig, you guys were THE GREATEST and although we were unaware of the stresses that nuke school was creating, we surely do remember that y'all were just the GREATEST bunch of guys and always a pleasure to perform there. Somewhere I do have a digitized recording of "Got To Move" (gee, can't believe you remember that)! When I locate it, I will let you know and e-mail you a copy. I should be more organized with my stuff, LOL, I have so many darn external hard drives and it would take years to organize the contents of them all. Bless you and if you know why RU-vid will not let me reply to your comments, help me out! You're subscribed to me, I am subscribed to you, so there is some glitch, or I may just be "Google-Member-Challenged," ha ha!
Hi JoAnn. I sent you a message but just to make sure I'm going to post here too. I found my settings were not how I thought they were so I changed them so anyone can comment on any post I make. At least that's what I think I did. Let me know.
@Rylander88 Yes, the block is set up to take all original FE parts. We make many of the other parts for the FE. We are thinking about making heads and a billet intake right now, but we have too many other cool projects on the burners right now.
Yes, tools wear out. We regularly inspect and replace them. We really don't adjust tool paths to compensate for tool wear. (However, there is slight adjustment in a lathe for tool wear when making parts with high tolerances).
@PixMan107, Indeed those drill bits are very fast...but extremely expensive. We have "through the tool coolant" on the mill (you can see it when we do the deep milling on the mains side). That said, "speed" isn't always paramount in a machining operation. When a part runs all night long on a mill it really doesn't matter if it finishes at 3:00 am or 4:00 am.
How many end mills do you go through in one block? This is pretty impressive and it is good to see this type of manufacturing right here in the US. I am a mold toolmaker for a company and it kills me to see foreign tools come in. More people need to be aware of what we can do as machinist. It is also good to see you using an American Made machine! its so easy to get others in this world. GREAT VIDEO!
that's amazing, I've alway's been a fan of the 302 ford, and always wanted to mill a forged aluminum block and somehow mill a 4 valve head based off a Honda crf unicam design...but now ford has the coyote... Its amazing that japan and other countries used overhead cam multiple valves per cylinder to boost reliability and performance to different applications over the years and now the us automakers are utilizing it.
Not sure off the top of my head if that machine is capable of running through spindle coolant, but if it is, you could save a lot of time and money when drilling the oil and water journals if you used a through spindle carbide drill. Guhring makes some very nice ones. Pricey, but they drill fast with no pecking, and they last quite awhile.
wet sleeves, the block doesn't have a traditional water jacket, rather the sleeves are relieved to allow room for a water jacket once the sleeves are pressed in. hence the reason for the o-rings that were mentioned.
@rajgd009, We don't know how much power it will produce yet. Our cars generally have 600-700 horsepower. They really don't "need" any more than that. We haven't done anything to reduce the internal stresses except for careful machining practices. We can't wait to see it on the dyno.
@SpecRLegend, We are just in the prototype phase right now. We hope to have the block up an running on a dyno in 30 days or so. The sleeves are made from ductile iron.
Indeed the original 427 FE block was cast from iron (although there was a 390 block that was cast in aluminum for CSX3002 back in the day). Currently, Shelby uses 6 bolts in their cross bolt mains (two more than original) and Pond uses the original two bolts in their cross bolt mains. We decided to use a girdle (like F1 engines) for our block. All four of these aluminum blocks use sleeves. We have thought about using nikasil, however :)
We haven't made billet heads yet. We are seriously considering it, however. We determined the seal relief by looking at Parker Hannifin's O-ring charts and looking at other sleeved motors. I don't have a video of the motor running...I should get one. We have just been too tied up around here with other cool projects :)
I run the same machine. However, your parts are considerably more complex. Excellent machine work. Thanks for posting video. A day and a half cycle time?
Yes, I posted we could make a car in Stainless--but for some reason I can't find it right now. There are problems with posting comments now that youtube and google and google+ are connected. They just started. Hopefully they will have it solved quickly. And...thank you very much for the kind words :)
@KirkhamMotorsports1 Very cool! I'm a metal fabricator myself, so I know what a job that must have been. Even if you had them stamped they would have required massive amounts of metal finishing to get it that smooth!
@fuertekid The time for each operation varies. Some take many hours and others are just a few minutes. The coolant you see is water based and it is recovered in a tank and reused over and over again.
