L-Acoustics L2 Hands-On & Huge Festival PA 

Super cool Anthony and thank you!

Awesome and thank you and yes I hope to meet you as well! Hopefully our paths will cross

Cool cool Steve!

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So cool and thank you!

Watching pups eat is just pure joy!

Thank you Chris! And I am honored and so lucky to be in the position I'm in and to be working with such great people at rat, L acoustics and Goldenvoice as well

2nd`ed

3rd’ed

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Thank you Theodore!

Awesome and thank you!

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Hello and welcome Shaun! Yes, when I did the wired video this system had not been released yet so I couldn't talk about it. Thank you for joining!!!

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Awesome and love that! Let JBL support my L-Acoustics vids!! Screen shot if it happens again, would live to have that

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Awesome and thank you!

Thank you Arthur!!

Awesome and yes, super fun

Hopefully they'll be done in the next few months if all goes well

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Yes, L1 should be interesting. Maybe a few years off but will be good

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His Name is Death Biter 2000, we call him db

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Agreed I'm quite excited about it and feel it will be a very popular system. The one stumbling block challenge is the reduced low frequency energy between 80 and 40 Hz makes subwoofer placement and array design much more complex and critical

Thank you and love to Thailand!

The elves are run down to 60 Hz and using the subs crossed over at 80 or 100 so there's some overlap

They actually have a wifi module in them but it's not active at this point. Initially we will release 100 units near exactly as they were on the last production run with one part upgraded due to being discontinued. We may activate WiFi in the next version(s) That said, dropping an RJ45 cable along with the speaker cables tends not to be overly complex. The big challenge is having an event solution for power. Battery operated has it's issues and POE makes things simple. Sending up lasers with dead battery packs or having batts die while up, a good way to keep batts charged and the preferred charging method(s) are all aspects that need to be considered. We may make make a lower power laser version and possibly a WiFi POE batt pack at some point.

Power like AC power? Cat power is the vendor and they bring in big huge generators, little tiny generators and whatever else is needed.

@@DaveRat yes! I gotcha. Dave I think it’s cool that you still take out time to answer us little guy’s questions and explain things on that huge level. I would love a have a quick conversation one day.

Cool Cool yeah and I trying off for the info I wish was offered to me when I was learning the craft

@@DaveRat thanks!

It really is the way to go

@@DaveRat I bet you don't know the Big Dome that I am referring to, do you? Anyways, How I long to meet you in person, and I am very much looking forward that you, together with L-Acoustics, will help us out with our PA System. Can't wait to experience the magic of your expertise. Cheers!

What's the Big Dome?

@@FOH3663 the KJC Kingdome

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I will ponder doing something like that

@@DaveRat Oh Thank you. I did not anticipate an answer. I ramble a bit - sorry about that.

All good cool cool Matt

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You know I don't know the answer to that I'll ask next time I chat with someone who would know. That said, with a line array since the HF does not overlap between boxes, adding more boxes theoretically should just increase vertical coverage but not increase the volume levels. That said a line array can be set up with 0° angles such that the boxes are adding together, but I feel that using a configuration like that to create the specification would be deceptive. So I'm guessing that the SPL spec is for one box covering an area or four boxes played such that they each cover adjacent vertical areas and for that measurement full frequency response the SPL should theoretically be about the same?

Well, i'd suspect they used a flat array of 4 K2's, since i don't see how it would be possible to create that SPL with just one box (in terms of driver sensitivity & power, like I said). One thing that bothers me about brands like L-Acoustics, D&B etc. is that they are way less transparent about their speaker specs than they used to be. When I look up the spec sheet for the old V-DOSC cabs, they used to give the sensitivity and power ratings for the LF, MF and HF sections respectively, as well as SPL values for one or multiple boxes, flown straight or with maximum curvature. In fact, the V-DOSC specs would be another hint that they used 4 boxes at 0°, since they stated at the K2 introduction in 2013 that the K2 as a replacement for V-DOSC has the same SPL and bandwidth, and in the spec sheet for V-DOSC it says 134db for 1 element and 146db for 4 when flown flat (143db for 15° total curvature, respectively) @@DaveRat

Lots of variables there. It's similar to amplifier power ratings, where the discussion between using RMS power or peak power and the duration of peak power versus usable and achievable volume levels versus the sound quality at those volume levels. Looking at the SPL output of a loud speaker without looking at the total area covered at that SPL is of minimal value. If one speaker covers 20° vertical and 120° horizontal and another covers 5° vertical and 60° horizontal, what SPL levels would you want to see in order to have them be equivalent? One speaker has eight times the coverage area of the other so theoretically it would need to be 24 dB louder to be the same. But also the frequency response trails off in the various speakers at different rates. And that SPL level is measured on axis yet the wide dispersion speaker is 6DB down at its off access extremes not only in volume levels but in variations of different frequencies. I think taking the SPL levels much beyond a reference point for comparing products from the same manufacturer is of little value and what really matters are things like actual usable coverage, sound quality at the coverage extremes, and how well multiple boxes can be arrayed together to increase coverage and volume levels. I know for L acoustics, they try and design enclosures in 3DB increments and design such that things like 3 K2 boxes is approximately equivalent to 2 K1 boxes. Then you can easily do the math on the vertical hang height and hang weight of how many K2 versus K1 would be needed. Same with k3, where 3 K 3 boxes is equivalent to 2 K2 boxes. It's not an exact science but it gives you a rule of thumb to figure out about how many boxes you need of various types if you have a good idea of how many boxes of a different type would work for you. Personally what I would do as well is look at the box format and cone area of the low frequency drivers and number and size of the HF drivers to get a good idea of its maximum capabilities. So for 12-in base systems you can compare the JBL to the D&B to the L acoustics. And being familiar with the brands know that L acoustics is probably going to sound better and more hi-fi, D&B will tend to get a little louder and have more punch and JBL will be more cost effective as those seem to be the trends of the various manufacturers.

Yeah okay, getting a bit over the top here. My initial comment was just a little nitpicking about the spl values l-acoustics gives for their boxes without giving further details (other than pink noise used for measurement and peak values for 1m distance), and i found it interesting to point that out. Of course the same discussion could be made for power ratings of amps, where there are also differences in how different brands give more or less information about the claimed values (like test signals with different crest factors or sine bursts of different lenghts). I didn't want to start a discussion about the practical usage of these informations. It should have been solely theoretical, like my calculation in the first comment was. I know that those values are of little importance in real-world situations, but it's still a parameter they promote their boxes with, and that could be a little misleading, as I said. Usually, when working with Soundvision or Array Calc, I don't care about max spl for a single box either, i'll focus on getting even coverage of a given audience area with a target spl (while also leaving some headroom) and choosing the right type and amount of speakers for that purpose. I think we can agree on that. It just seems more credible for a manufacturer if they are transparent about how their stated values were measured, that was the whole point of my comment, since they used to do that in the past. Maybe it has to do with the "system approach" all these mentioned companies use nowadays, why they prefer to keep most of the parameters secret like crossovers and filters for their presets and also power ratings for the speakers since you're supposed to only use their speakers on their dsp amps with the appropriate limiters etc. already implemented in the presets.@@DaveRat

I agree they are giving less specific information and I also understand why as well. Defining an SPL level or a crossover point or power handling as a single simple number will be misleading no matter what you do. Crossover points, SPL levels and power handling are not simple numbers but rather variable entities that change depending on things like mechanical horn dispersion settings or low frequency cut off points selected. When I worked with e a w they were very adamant about being precise and offering lots of info yet it put them at a disadvantage when other manufacturers specified much higher ratings and less info and there did not seem to be a public backlash against the limited info. Yet to be accurate with modern systems that automatically recalibrate depending on configurations, simplifying it down to single numbers would not do justice either.

I believe we have clamps for JBL, Meyer and D&B. I will find out exactly which versions and models we have

A system that employs a single box wide, whether it is a point source or line array will be impacted in similar ways by lateral wind as the sound from one source is blown away, the sound from another source can often be blown in to replace it for certain listening positions. Putting 2 or more sound sources side by side will improve wind tolerance at the expense of increases in hotizontal phase and clarity issues when wind is not a factor. The best way to mitigate wind related sound issues is to decrease the distances between the sound sources and listeners by implementing things like delay clusters

Hey hey Gary very cool. Yes I've expanded quite a bit on that. The videos I'm doing on the stormtrooper speaker or real sounding speaker, are based on this concept. Also I did a video responding to Reddit comments, in the fourth video I did on that I do a demo of decorrelation. I also expanded the subject to cover running different signals to the subs on the left and the subs on the right to reduce cancellation. And also that concept relates to putting subs on an aux send so you don't have the same exact signal going to the subs and the mains

@@DaveRat Awesome! I run my subs on aux all the time. Best IMO as well. I will be checking out your other videos as well . Thanks for replying Dave... I feel like a rock star! HA!!! You are "That Guy" bro. Keep being great! I know you understand what sound or shall I say vibration truly is, in this universe we are blessed to be apart of. I feel Like I have a new friend!

Thank you Gary and keep rocking it up and keep me updated!

I am but they'll probably be mostly on the member side of my channel like they were last year. Coachella festival is pretty tight about releasing public info so I keep it on the member side

We have dedicated fiber run to all our delay clusters and throughout the festival. Rat sound has drive racks that allow just about any signal to be run down fiber or network cable or analog and received by any of the above as well that we drop wherever we need them

@@DaveRat was that over conventional single mode fibre?

We just converted everything to dual mode in the past year or so

Fiber optic through trenches and tunnels to all the delay clusters and from front of house to stage

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Either sell the vintage gear make some money and buy ultra light easy to set up better sounding new gear or hang on to the old gear because it's cool for posterity sake and a showpiece like art. But working gigs with the old gear is two cumbersome it's like trying to run a business with a landline telephone and a really long wire

@@DaveRat 😂 your absolutely right Dave keep my old gear and buy new gear for my grand daughter and tell my wife everyone here said you can never have enough gear or listen to it loud and clear … even if it’s just in the barn .. good sound makes better wine Yakima valley ❤️

And fun too!

Very cool and yeah definitely not as much low end coming off the mains. I will work on differing sub setups to help compensate. The low end in the middle is fine but off to the sides you really got to make sure your subs have good horizontal coverage

@@DaveRat - Hi Dave. Have you heard any Daley big PA? I've been fascinated for a number of years with Danley Sound Labs' masses of L-MH drivers in one big box physically time/phase aligned loaded into one massive horn, synergy horn, encompassing the whole face of a very large box. Their boxes have up to 64 L-M-H drivers with on single about 6-7' x 3-4' box. I've seen demos on RU-vid where they but 1 box per side stereo up against numerous manufacturers many box per side line arrays.

Danley has been to the Rat Sound shop with demo rigs a few times over the years. Interesting gear. Never been too interested in actually owning or deploying due the the lack of scalability and flexibility. For what we do as a rental company, having boxes that can be arrayed and systems size scaled for the various venue sizes and coverage areas is critical. Having a single box with a fixed coverage patterns requires the box to be designed to be opitmal for the specific venue and audience area rather than combining multiple boxes to optimize for a wide variety of venues and coverages.

@@DaveRat Cool. Thx.

It's an incremental adventure. We get the main PA up fairly quickly and then we have the 18 delay clusters spread across the field and all the networking for that that happens. Once we have this new setup dialed in it should only take a day to get the mains in and up but this one took a couple days

60 or 80 Hz. Though overlapping rather than crossing over is quite common. So having the main boxes go down to 40 Hertz and the subs go up to 80 is not unusual

I have some experience with the MLA and quite a bit of experience with the EAW Anya. Both are interesting and very powerful systems with loads of control. No neither system has really gained traction at the upper end of the touring and artist demand realm. Things like weight cost and dependability our challenges. Ultimately pointing speakers in the right direction physically seems to have and continues to win out over trying to electronically steer sound which is less efficient and tends to diminish sound quality That said there are specific applications where being able to control sound to such a high degree makes those types of systems the right tool for the job

@@DaveRat thank you for your detailed response! They seem to have traction over here in the UK, particularly for their ability to cut off the sound outside the arena, increasing dB levels in situations where off site monitoring has forced levels to be turned down - Glastonbury festival most notably. Or at least, that's what their PR says! I find it extraordinary at modern large gigs how you don't hear a snare a second later from one of the other repeaters any more, which used to be unavoidable 20 odd years ago. The mathematics that must make this possible boggles the mind. Your videos are great and full of fascinating information, even for the enthusiastic gig goer like myself as well as the professionals.

Awesome and thank you. Yeah, Martin was gaing gigs for a while and then got sold to Mackie I believe and then re sold to another venture capital group. That kind of pulled the rug out from them. Systems from d&b and now L-acoustics that are controllable but not as complex to deploy and sound better in my opinion are gaining. Very cool and thank you

@@DaveRat I've heard good things about d&b in particular. I'll keep an ear out for both systems this summer.

I did not mix any bands this year. I try not to as if I mix a band surely something will need my attention on the other side of the festival at that exact time

Thank you and very cool I'll work on that. I've been pretty pressed for time so I've been using AI to summarize the videos and then I go back and clean up the chapters and such when I got some more time

Four box maximum

If I need more power I have to use k1's?@@DaveRat

Each of these boxes is approximately equivalent to 4 K2. So the maximum hang is equivalent to about 16 K2 The next level up would be to use K2 which can hang 24 deep and then beyond that to use K1 which can also hang 24 deep. But 2 K1 is approximately equal to 3 K2, so a fully hung array of K1 is equivalent to about 36 K2

Thank you for helping@@DaveRat

The advantage is a reduction in weight because the added structure needed for individual cabinets can be reduced. Reduced setup time as less boxes need to be rigged and less cables connected, lower cost has less external cabling is needed and less rigging individual parts. Reduced size has the savings of the additional wood panels and structure for individual boxes means internal volume can be maintained with a slightly smaller external size. Reduce distance between horns as having them all mounted in the same box versus having separating panels between them can improve sound quality as well. The downside is a reduction in coverage versatility that can be somewhat compensated for with electronic adjustments. Ultimately having smaller lighter faster to set up boxes can be extremely beneficial in reduced trucking costs and faster setup times which can reduce labor call costs as well while improving sight lines and reducing rigging weight.

@@DaveRat GREAT summary there. So, basically mostly practical advantages rather than sonic ones. If you're basically squeezing 3 arrays into one box, then I'm wondering if it's possible to adjust the box angles or do they have to be hung in a fixed formation to avoid gaps/overlaps in coverage between each box? You mentioned electronic adjustments, but I'm wondering if the cones/horns can be physically angled/rotated inside each box?

There are sonic advantages as well. Instead of having four separate horns it's got one big horn with four drivers on it, therefore eliminating three transitions. Those transitions are little glitches in the coverage and by eliminating them it improves the quality of the line array makes it smoother and more coherent. As far as electronic adjustments, by altering the delay time, level and/or frequency response of the various drivers attached to that one unified horn, The coverage can be trimmed either on the top or on the bottom to some degree reducing energy from being propagated above and below the desired coverage pattern. For example, if you were to set up the array such that the top of the coverage aligns with the farthest, highest altitude point you want to cover and the bottom of the coverage now bleeds on the stage somewhat, you can electronically trim out the bottom of the coverage to stop at the barricade rather than go beyond it towards the stage.

@@DaveRat Interesting. It seems like things are going back a bit more towards point source designs but with some line array functionality and a lot more sophistication. Do you see all products going in this direction, even the bigger size systems? Or would those boxes be too big and heavy to combine? They're already pretty beefy as it is.

There are applications and/or inventory needs where smaller or more modular enclosures are opyimal and situations where largest combined enclosures have advantages. Think of speakers as vehicles used to perform a Tesla So we only me limo's or race dates or tractors? Or for the car rental market, sedans or compact cars or town cars or 15 pase get vans? New tech is helping optimize for various applicants cations but that does not diminish the need for variety. As far as point source, these are line source because they have multiple drivers in a line reproducing the same signal. If a box claims to be point spurs and has multiple drivers side by side and /or stacked that are reproduce the same signal, then they are not being honest. True point sources and anything involving an array are exclusive entity groups

Yes unless interaction from ground reflection as it bounces upwards more

What's a glow stick?

We prefer passive versus active for many reasons. One reason is we have a large inventory and various boxes get used at different times having the amps permanently attached to the box is less flexible and more expensive as we don't need to own an amp for every single box always Additionally in the event of amplifier failure we're able to switch to a spare amp even when the amplifiers are flown much easier than if the amps were inside the boxes. it's much easier to move a cable then to drop the cluster or to unscrew and replace an amp in the back of a box Also, Yes the overall weight and cost is reduced because it is more efficient to have many amps all powered off a single power supply then have a separate power supply for every amplifier in every box The new two rack space 16 channel lacoustics la7.16 will power four x 120 pound K2 boxes each with two 12", 4 x 5" and 2x 2". By not putting the amplifier in the box and reducing the box weight, the rigging weight for the boxes can be reduced as well further decreasing overall hang weights and increasing maximum array lengths. Remember that each box has the rigging to hold the entire maximum array length, so increasing the weight of a box that has a max array length of 24 boxes by 40 pounds means the rigging on every single box needs the rigging strength increased by a thousand pounds. Which then increases the weight of the box which then increases the need for stronger rigging further increasing the load on every box and on the building. Box weight is a huge factor

@@DaveRat One more point from my own experience: An active box puts the amplifier where the speaker needs to be, which could be in direct sunlight. I've had active boxes shut down because the amp plate got ripping hot in the sun. With a passive box, you can put the amps in the shade.

Great point. Yeah, that would be a calamity for delay clusters at Coachella. Oh, and also we have had issues where delay clusters required trenches cables and trenching speaker cables are fine but putting ac voltages in the trenches was an issue.

@@DaveRat is there a loss though magnetic grounding

Not sure what you mean by magnetic grounding?

Yes it stops the cart from tearing up the side of the truck ramps and the road cases. I too love the attention to detail and it goes on and on as you dig into the L-acoustics gear

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Yes a lot of companies out there have varying technologies and a lot of this stuff isn't exactly new but it is the clustering of all the best ideas into lightweight deployable predictable enclosures that sound great that makes them the best

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Yeah, I said it in a confusing way. But yeah, I think a 12 box K2 is about 350 pounds heavier than a 3 box L2 but would need to look it up to be sure. Plus there are cabling and flybar differences the shift things a bit

@@DaveRat lol. maybe in 2050. We’ll have 30 pound boxes

Whenever PK sound is set up though it seems to be going just as loud and heavy as I remember back in 2015 and 2008

It's very tough to generalize as there are drastic differences between various shows and festivals. Modern systems have the capability of presenting better sound than older systems mainly due to the fact that older systems had no good way of combining multiple speakers and anything other than a mess. That said, The probability of running into City or county imposed noise restrictions was almost non-existent a few decades ago whereas now it's quite common. But if you look back at the old days like the us festival, cal jam, Woodstock, The sound was crap. I mix done festivals throughout the world from 1990 to 2017 and the sound quality has gone from varying piles of mass and junk to consistently quite good to amazing in my experience

Modern bigtime live sound can be extraordinary.

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That's actually quite light for a cart of 4 boxes. Most of the carts weigh 200 to 250 kg. It's the individual 80 kg boxes where someone pushes one box at a time that makes production cry when you load in 60 or more boxes that makes production cry