Killer pod! What a week so far. Peak Torque and Dylan this morning, Nero and LR in the afternoon. The rest of the week is going to need to up its game! Keep up the good work.
This is the best cycling podcast I've heard for a long time. Totally agree with the suggestion by another commenter that you guys should do this regularly every quarter/6-months to discuss recent racing and industry news.
I think that clip that LR responded to is pretty absurd, even though some of the Huberman content seems okayish. The obvious problem is those sorta videos meant purely for the algorhitm. Click one of them with Zone 2 in the title and your RU-vid will be filled with it for weeks. Attia's video where he shows what his zone 2 pace seems helpful though, and the watts he's doing there are quite a lot higher than your regular joe trying to do some Zone 2 (Def not 130w as what was implied).
Always depends on you’re definition of zone 2, normally you’d say it’s the Fatmax zone or at least many people say that and fatmax is around 1,1-1,5 mmol/l lactat and that isn’t that high
To go beyond 5w/kg FTP means you have some of the top genetics available. It's not linear - you're right off the end of the bell curve. Hunter Allen spoke about that number on the wattage list years ago and said that it needs at least 20 hour weeks with serious dedication just to maintain it. He's never seen anyone who got there on less volume. So, 5.5 would be crazy high and need proper OCD-level dedication to training and recovery. Many of the top guys in the UK hill climb scene get there and go beyond it without loads of training but they only tend to peak for a couple of months after a year-long build up.
I have heard 4 w/kg mentioned as s the genetic potential for an average person (whatever that is). I am not sure, but the source may have been Coggan. @@josipX
With regard to double threshold days, you're right that only really aerobically fit people should do them. If you listen to the Cory Lockwood interviews on the Empirical Cycling podcast (the most deep dive technical training podcast around), he does them, but Cory is also the US 40km TT record holder and has an FTP of 450W. Another way of thinking about it is that they're useful only when your TTE is waaaay beyond an hour (but your FTP is really your FTP). Runners do them because injury risk and recovery requirements are so much higher than cycling.
I think a really cool idea would be for you guys to engage podcasters outside of cycling and do a cross over chat. One thought I have is connecting up with another sport that is not that greatly followed and also in some ways with a 'niche' audience and that's cricket - specifically linking up with The Grade Cricketer. Doing an episode with them and possibly with LR to talk about the two sports in general and laugh about the similarities - this could be great for both sports with audiences from both sides maybe then venturing into some level of interest into the other sport. Jesse was also talking about the Nero show being better, funnier etc - I'm not saying to copy the unique dynamic that TGC has but perhaps it can help open your minds as to the direction you'd like to take the show and mould it to what would be your ideal :)
Your comments on Huberman's insanely complex routines are spot on. My personal tin foil hat theory is that his academic research into fear and anxiety (his day job) has led him to the perfect formula for getting people addicted to his show - make a big deal out of very minor things that only experts like him can explain to you and recommend. Not simple things like 'be more active' or 'ride your bike a lot, work on TTE, eat, sleep' ( the bottom line of basically every episode of the Empirical Cycling podcast)
Love the show! I have two points of feedback as a sw engineer in the automotive industry. 1. Chris, motorcycle brands and auto brands will n general are not vertically integrated. They do make certain components, but most of the time they spec out what they’re looking for and buy a component “off the shelf” that another company makes. 2. AI is a class of algorithms like any other, but its goal is not immediately apparent like some other algorithms. In short, AI is an algorithm that’s designed to find non obvious patterns through “training”, and find those same patterns in new sets of data. Other more traditional algorithms rely on humans finding the patterns and searching for them in some data. (AI might look at some videos of an aero rider and find some nice non intuitive patterns that make a person more aero, traditional video analysis programs would look at a rider for known aero patterns)
45:20 Very generous take on durians views on nutrition😂 The ideal amount of peri-workout carbs has, in recent years, gone up. That’s strictly in relation to peak performance on that specific day. What durian is saying is that you should eat unlimited quantities of sugar and not eating meat somehow makes this allow you to avoid the laws of thermodynamics. It’s not just wrong, it’s dangerously wrong. And there are some people following his advice. You could argue the sorts of people who take nutrition advice from durianrider wouldn’t be doing something else equally insane, but still.
Hi guys--coming to this episode late so not sure if you're still paying attention. But I work with AI technologies so your questions about what is AI vs not is something I may be able to illuminate. First--great observation that it is difficult to ascertain what is our is not AI based on advertisements. Software platforms for years have been claiming they are AI when really they are just doing predictive analytics (like the linear regression the LR gentleman mentioned). While the dividing line is sometimes blurry, typically predictive analytics isn't considered AI. What typically is considered AI unambiguously would be software systems that perceived the world using human-like senses. So a model that can take in sound and parse it into language, or look at an image and figure out whether a bicycle is in the frame would be "hearing" and "seeing", so both of those would be AI. You could then combine the interpretations of these forms of data with, for example, linear regression, to them make a decision about what to do based on what was "seen" or "heard". The whole system would generally be considered AI as well. In a broader sense, AI as a label is being applied to anything that also looks at the data using techniques that can analyze data and then use that analytical output as part of a second (or nth-- these models can be dozens of layers deep) analysis. So if the model that was "listening" above heard a word and thought it was "they're" but then heard a second word, "house" and then "realized" that it was "their" and not "they're" it heard. That would be a system that was applying the output of the first analysis and then combining it to the second input and "changing its mind". This is an example of a convoluted neural network approach like what was described by the LR gentleman talking about the software he bought. What he specifically was talking about is an example of a learning system using this kind of algorithm, where the model at the first level says "not aero" and a human in the loop is correcting the machine, and the machine then applies that input into future, different examples it sees. Hopefully this helps. And apologies for any mispellings--doing this on the phone....
Not sure I would agree with the Norwegian method not being something new. Maybe similar training was done in the cycling but definitely not in athletics especially not in the middle distances they are running. For example if you look at the Hicham El Guerrouj training (most middle distance runners are still training like this) which is still the WR holder for 1500m. The volumes of his are 2-3x lower than what Ingebritsen's are doing and that's because a lot of training El Guerrouj was done at race pace or above and what Ingebritsen's are doing is training at much lower intensity and thus be able to take on so much volume. Like doing 2 quality sessions in one day was unheard of in running (double threshold) before them. Especially makes sense when you take in to account that running is an impact sport and thus you are even more prone to injuries and not just overtraining.
Would like to add to the conversation about lactate testing as its something I've found to be really useful. I go to a top UK sports University every couple of years for a cycling test where they do a sub-maximal and maximal assessment while taking lactate samples. What I get from this is a really useful data set: Accurate power and HR zones Values for LT1 and LT2 Fat / carb utilisation and fat max power point Training advice on which point of my physiology requires the most work and example workouts that will improve my fitness. comparisons to previous test results I'm just a regular guy who enjoys cycling and works hard so its been invaluable to me to know that any training I do is being directed in the right places. The lactate samples really enable accurate zoning and I feel take away some of the guess work that comes with doing a 20min test / ramp test and then determining zones from that. The cost of this is around £200. I think if an accurate lactate meter came to market it would be overkill for someone like myself during everyday riding, but I would certainly think it would improve my ability to do more regular testing.
On comparing the bike industry to automotive industry. In the Auto industry it's rare that care companies own the entire production too. Cars and motorbikes, are the result of a huge amount of system integration, 3rd parties, OEM makers, and so on. So it's not that different from the bike industry. What the auto industry does benefit from is strategic partnerships, integration. Automakers share engines across brands, companies co-develop chassis, drive trains and so on. and they reuse those components over and over in various machines perfecting them as they go. The issue with prices in the bike industry is its need to update bikes SO GODDAM often. and the margins they're charging. and the quantities they're producing in. and the fact, there seems to be plenty of people out there ok paying the prices.
The PTO are trying to make broadcasting way more interesting in triathlon, they have a world tour series and they will show heart rate and power from the athletes, at least thats what they tested last season already. I think this would also be something to look into in pro cycling. As was mention in a podcast already, F1 is a real rolemodel live data wise.
Carbon rim brakes were awful on the wet with taste exception. One of those exceptions were campag. The bora one's i still have along with the red pads i lifted the rear wheel off the ground whilst seated doing an emergency stop at 40mph in the wet approaching a junction i didn't realize was there. I bought those wheels and rims second hand and still have the rims several years on. I swear other pads wear out at least twice as fast. Anyway, disc brakes rock. Mostly.
Have not watched a race since Dec 19th. Missed all of TDU. I am now consuming a lot more non-UCI racing - i.e. gravel. I have no idea how I can watch any races in Singapore (legally).
The TDF is to cycling as Olympics are to all the sports we don't watch the other three years. The main issue is there's so many events that don't have a clear and concise participant base, it's hard to keep track. Teams have events where their star players don't show up. The tour is the event where everyone shows up. Pretty obvious to me that we naturally want to see the stars doing their best... Instead of just a team of unknown names racing it out and some far away land. This is my American perspective.
When I watch a race, I want the commentary to have an option to throw an AI overlay over the screen and have it show me w/kg for riders on screen, I want it to even determine projected time, I want it to know if there’s a water bottle on the bike and guess if there are savings to be had, I really want a total analysis to be available. Sorta like chat bubbles, a display all, or the comm can mouse over a rider and show the data. Comparisons. All of it. The data is there it just needs to be aggregated and quickly presentable in real time. The “oh he’s drilling it” isn’t holding up long term over a talk, data gives you talking points.
Let's start " The people's league " we'll do a huge gofundme, buy all the streaming rights and give the sponsors what they pay for. Exposure! Seriously the sponsors should be demanding better they and the riders are at the short end of the stick . If you want the big brands to come in and spend big money you need to do big things. The whole cycling business model is failing all. Riders, teams, fans, sponsors, locations , event the organizers stand to benefit. I don't understand the reluctance to be better
Jesse and LR don't understand the training principles around lactate, The way LR is saying oh "this guy is doing the power but his lactate levels are high he is still getting signed..." Yes he is, but the point is that lactate is an excellent predictor of mitochondrial function so it can be used in youth development to find the next pogacar or for this junior turning into a neo pro in question to discover where the low hanging fruit is for him in terms of training. Lactate is just a window into metabolic flexibility and it's this metabolic flexibility that everyone is obsessed with now.
Car/moto manufacturers dont own the process either. All your lights and belts and airbags and windhsield wipers come from OEM manufacturers like bosch etc. cop out answer
That was my thinking too. Also aren't all these cycle brands now doing their own wheels and bars these days. So literally a seat and groupset is from an external manufacturer. And how can frames cost USD $5000-$6000n when then made in Taiwan for a fraction of the price 😮
Warner Bros Discovery royally screwed over cycling fans in USA when they shut down GCN+. They now expect us to pay for Max streaming and a sports package add on. No thanks.
Good one boys. Great collab with Patrick. Durianrider, also has street cred because he has a hot girlfriend and bodies don't lie relative to how people train and what food they consume. Aside from Durianrider being correct about the cycling industry losing their mind aka greed to fleece dumb people, have to admit, him taking anabolics to bulk up is great comedy as an adjunct to all the sugar he espouses. Somehow protein gets lost in the discussion. Keep up the good work sorting through lies aka voodoo that many believe as gospel.
At least Huberman and Attia are trying to bring new people into the sport, whichever it is. You glorify the "pros" and often shit on the people that know less than you. This is becoming the cycling elitist's podcast.
I really enjoyed this one. The three of you work well together. LR Benni and Nero is where I go for for cycling content so I knew it would be good. It would be great if you collaborated in long form after key periods in tbe racing season. 3-4 times a year. Keep up the good work. ❤Nat Xx
Goddamn if they'd let LR stream races and commentate live on RU-vid it would be amazing! DR v HUBERMAN, I'm taking DR all day lol carbs and water and sleep.
Have to agree. The DR approach is a really simple way to get all of the basics dialled in from the get go. Once you’re on the road you can start adding in Huberman hacks if you want, totally down to the individual imo
the cape epic should be a great example of how to do coverage. they get mad footage and definitely don’t portray it as 1980’s tv and it’s an MTB stage race. the road coverage peeps could learn a thing or 2
I love seeing Goodnight Moon behind Jesse. Symbolic of the priorities most of us are juggling with cycling. And also symbolic of how this show is one of my weekly bedtime routines. 😂
I think the main reason you guys are so good is because you're not like the other journalists. You don't just rudely interrupt for sound bites. I respect that you guys don't want to bother the riders! I wish your approach would reward even more.
Is the issue that most sports people don't want to be 'hassled' by media. The truth is they need to do it and 'journos/channels' need to engage and create a connection. That's what makes great interviewers great. The ability to get the story, get the person, and create a vibe that allows them to open up and want to engage. I'd argue these guys have to man up and skipp up and actually get out of 'podcast' land and into the real world of media where you don't just google or rip videos to get the info and content you need. Journalism is a skill. The back end of organising riders / bikes/ interviews is part of it all. Sure it'd be great if it was all spoonfed to anyone that wanted to do a podcast...but that's not the riders, team or media reps jobs. Their jobs is to assist, but not to do the job for journos.
As a Norwegian who knows Gustavs father and first trainer I can tell that polarized training is the most newbie friendly training regime. You go zone 1-2 all days except 1 day with intervals. And it’s a short and hard session. Then you’re building base. We had several talks from professional trainers and athletes and they all say the most common amateurs training error is going half hard all the time. Polarized is the easiest regime to follow if you have the discipline to go slow and long enough on easy days. Doing thresholds and other advanced exercises is for more advanced. It’s also the same if you want to build muscles. Do the six basic exercises for 1-2 years then you can do the Arnold program.
@@andrewwoffinden8671 not really no, thats the thing everyone thinks, but studies showed with 5h+ you ll get a better stimulus than just riding tempo everyday but at the end everyone should be happy with their hobbies, so you do you and i‘ll do me
@@andrewwoffinden8671 considering many ppl work 40 plus hours and sleep 50 to 60 hours a week, certainly it's very much in the realm of reasonably possible to train fifteen hours a week. Of course it's much easier to make excuses, literally create excuses like buying unnecessary things car payments, having kids or high maintenance partners, it's your life to live it's your choice. Instead of working full time making 60 to 80k salary, work less and make 40 to 50k a year, to bad your car isn't as nice or house isn't as big. No one cares.
Haha, Chis you’re killing me. “Haven’t heard Durian Rider talk about it so it’s not relevant to me”. 😅 Great podcast guys. LR is right on the event organisers really not fulfilling their contract obligations by not ensuring all regions have access to the televised programming in each region. Two large issues I think is that cause naming the Iggy change the team name is never constant and changing to some sponsors no one knows what they make, so people are not connected to the teams but instead follow riders or personalities, and second the organising body needs to ensure media access in all regions. What LR suggested sounds great.
You can't expect sponsors to throw bucket loads of cash at you when you're just two random guys talking trash about cycling. What are the sponsors getting for their money? Until you level up to GCN type production, it's not going to be appealing.
Yeah. People sometimes go on about it, but how useful is 1hr steady power even useful in road cycling? Basically never. I think since indoor cycling took off 0.95 20min is pretty much the standard. 20min power is a very useful and practical number.
On Valtteri Bottas, He's been racing a lot of gravel. Even mid formula-1 season. I think he's won Unbound in US in some category. So he isn't totally outside the sport, he's amateur cyclist who is leveraging his influence to get to organize races and promote cycling (or gravel, rather). So i don't agree that he's just some outsider coming in. And while i'm Finn i don't care for Formula-One. For longest time i took him as German with distant Finnish cousin whenever national media wrote about him.
@LanternRouge, I am a data scientist/engineer and I'm afraid your idea for an AI application is a bit misguided... it sounds like you're essentially trying to convince yourself that you need AI to solve a simple geometry problem (i.e. compute the distance from head to handlebar or spine to top tube or whatever, then compare that to the fastest pose in wind tunnel). I suppose It's a little more complicated than that cause you need a image processing layer to figure out the scaling/orientation - you could use the homography of the know wheel size in the video. I found it funny that you and Jesse both then went on to point out how everything is AI these days when it doesn't need to be - I would say your joke example on linear regression is almost closer to real AI than your TT position AI 🤣. Hope that isn't too harsh, I'm a big fan of your cycling analysis even if your machine learning chops leave something to be desired
I had to watch a stream with no commentary in total silence... But was better than not seeing it at all... Kind of crazy in 2024... Even the Tour of Thailand had a Facebook live stream with commentary.
hate to say it but I thought the tour down under broadcast was pretty bad. We need some more excitement and hype from the commentators on the broadcast.
I felt the same, but then again, it wasn't that exciting, most of the race 😂 I think 3 commentators makes everyone more tentative to avoid talking over the top of each other and have less banter. The director was also sloppy - switching back to the studio every time sounded like amateur hour...
Fully agree, he doesn't even know that elbows bend on the hoods is faster than being in the drops. When del toro won he kept rambling on about how he wasn't even in the drops lol
Corima do propose Tubular and Tubeless wheels. Just a check on the website to see that the Tubeless are hookless and 26mn internal width, they have 32mn and 47mn version. The MCC version with the 12 carbon spokes looks nice (and expensive), but I don't know how aero they are ... Just to give them a bit of justice ;)
@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed I think the last I heard he just got busy with life. His video were some of the first videos I ever watched when I got into cycling some 9 years ago. Loved them!
@@brianbolton5566 after they went to the tour de France and said we're going to destroy the media they came back and it was over. He started to mention about shutting down the channel. I'm pretty sure what I said is the reason why he disappeared
Just a perspective when LR is talking about being hesitant about interviewing riders before a race. I think there should be a mutual respect between media and athletes. First of all, the sport doesn't make ANY money without an audience. Sports are entertainment at the end of the day, and media knowing the personalities/stories behind the riders is a big part of what makes for an entertaining product. Second of all, athletes should also be motivated to build their internal brands. How else will they get exposure? Cycling for performance is just a flash in the pan with respect to their entire life. They need to branch out with interviews and such
FWIW, the free Ironman RU-vid livestreams tend to be a dumpster fire. The cameras are limited, the signal is frequently lost, the commentators are mostly awful and the same (usually extremely annoying) sponsor ad is repeated every few minutes interrupting the action and flow of the broadcast. It borders on unwatchable.
I love this show but the only bad bit is how much you talk about how the show could be better. Just keep deep-diving stuff and chatting bikes. Especially when you go outside the mainstream like with China Cycling.
HBO Max will have cycling coverage for the US starting February. It just sucks it’s behind another paywall and no one is sure the extent of races they will cover. GCN was fairly cheap and every race was available via VPN.
These two coming off as old codgers griping about gravel this, gravel that. Take a breath boys and a look around. Road is on the way down, gravel on the way up. If you're interested in staying relevant, better get on board
Time to start some crowdfunding for the boys to do some trips like eurobike!! If all of us chip in the equivalent of an over priced coffee, we all get to enjoy it 10 fold. Our boys get on a trip, we get to see the stuff we want to see and then blap on about it for weeks after. What a win win!! Make the budget and let us know, happy support that !!!
I very much enjoy your podcasts, they make Z2 on the turbo something to look forward to. Ref the lactate testing I think there is a good reason to do it every so often for the committed amateur - specifically in a lab with gas exhaled also examined plus an expert to explain the results. This all helps demonstrate what is meant to happen from a physiological perspective at low mid and high intensity. And also to show where the individual’s max endurance pace (LT1 ) lies . Also for me it confirmed what I kind of knew from my attempts to ride my 20min FTP for 45-60mins - ie my 20min FTP was consistently too high vs my actual VT2 and 2nd lactate turning point. I understand from the experts that for all but highly trained athletes, the 20min test (let alone the ramp test) tends to overstate Anaerobic Threshold / FTP. Keep up the excellent work
There’s some imposter syndrome going on with LR and Chris as a media access journalist. Have confidence in yourselves and believe you should be there. You both do, so believe in your credibility.
Cycling coverage has gone back to the dark ages. It's insane. 2024 and the sport doesn't have a dedicated live streaming global app/channel. It's without doubt the single largest issue the sport has. It needs immediate solving. If your fans can't even watch your sport, how on Earth will it last? The UCI or possibly this One Cycling project need to solve this. Every cycling podcast needs to continue to berate everyone involved until it's solved. Call these organisations out.
