My mom always told me that my grandpa died watching a boxing match. So I did some research and found that he dies on May 20th 1985. He was watching this fight. He liked Holmes because he was Ali's sparring partner. This fight holds a special place in my heart. R.i.p Lloyd R. Kyle.
I would rather watch Homes much more than Ali!! Why? His technique was always more consistent even though he was not quite as good overall. I think Holmes was better but didn't have as much natural talent. Holmes did have a real jab and not just a backfist. It's so full of conjecture. It's hard to make a decision on who was better. I think Carl won this fight. BTW I was a cornerman for 15 years with three world champions. We had some records also. Ali was much better before he was stripped and suspended. Yet he beat a monster of George Foreman. He then took revenge on Frazier!! They destroyed each other. Such heart Neither was ever the same.
@Jojew Yes, and respected the nation where he earned most of his cash! Don't know if Holmes served (although Norton did), however I believe had he been called, Larry Hohmes whould had serves his nation. Ali never held the title near as long as Homes, before nor after his suspension. How Ali gets the #1 slot in all time greats I'll kever know, because he dodged battle for his nation (that is again, where he made his cash & retired). While it's tough to outright name Holmes #1, a case could be made for it, the same for Foreman & to some degree, Mike Tyson & Lennox Lewis, one of the select few who via rematch, beat every opponent he faced. Including nearly derailing the career of Kitchsko early, the refs shouldn't had stopped the fight & his eye would had been so fucked up to fight again. 60 stiches & plastic surgery needed is not enough to prove who won? All (other than Kitchsko) deserves to be in the Top 5 of modern era boxing. Yes, Holmes best Ali's bitch ass & I love to watch that fight every month. That's Ali, when needed, he got Dundee to throw the towel in, rather than take his ass whipping like a man. There were many men & women also who didn't want to kill the enemy (some also for spitiual reasons), yet tens of thousands serves in that War alone. Ali doesn't deserve a Top 10 spot.
I could be wrong but I believe this was the last time one of the three major networks televised a heavyweight title fight live in prime time. I miss those days.
Yes, after this the Heavyweight Championship moved off free tv which was supported solely by broadcast advertising and the site fee, if there was one. There's more of a story of what happened to bring this about and how it relates to a great deal more.
I saw some guys giving the young Cassius Clay that work but the fighters was so no named that it's hard to fi d the footage, so when they do when 5 or 6 notable fights it make them look really great
That's what hurt boxing . No more recognition with regular non - paying cable customers .Boxing had more familiarization .A lot of boxers now are strangers because of it .
@@michaelclayton3114 Yep, by the mid 1990s it was really bad. The one that I think of most was Vinny Pazienza vs Roberto Duran, that should have been for free on network tv.
Holmes got a gift that night. So he really shouldn't have been mad when he lost to Michael Spinks because he really had gotten away with a couple victories he may not have really deserved
@@djhardcorproductions6132 In my opinion, Holmes was so lucky throughout his career. He really lost against Ken Norton, Tim Witherspoon and Carl Williams. Not to mention the fact that he ducked fighters like Greg page and Pinklon Thomas.
Larry Holmes was a good champion,7 years at the top,underfeated as WBC champion and had one of the best jabs in the heavyweights.He was never given his respect or due,he is one of the top 5 in greatest Heavyweight champions in history.Larry Holmes is my favorite Heavyweight!
Well.. listen to the fans late in his fight with Ray Mercer. Old Larry banged away at that monster that whole fight and by the end the fans began to realize just what a legend he was. Then he took on Holyfield and looked good doing it. I think he got his respect eventually
Holmes is one of my favorite boxers, but on this occasion I'm forced to admit I saw the fight for his opponent. Williams consistently out-jabbed Holmes, negated his attacks, and won the majority of the rounds. Holmes certainly landed the heavier punches but not nearly enough of them. That being said I couldn't argue against anyone who saw it for either fighter - most of these rounds were so close that you could have a wide variety of scores. I might even if I watch this a year from now. Williams 144, Holmes 142.
Larry Holmes was a proud, gifted, and very brave fighter. Unfortunately for him, he didn't become champion until he was almost 30 years old. This makes his accomplishments as champion even more impressive.
I scored the fight 143-142 for Williams, but Holmes once again proved why he is 1 of the 3 greatest heavyweights in boxing history. In his 20th title defense, the way past his prime Holmes demonstrated his incredible versatility and great heart by pounding Williams to the body in the 9th round. After the fight, Eddie Futch stated, "Ali didn't throw 100 body punches in his entire career, but Larry listened to my advice in the corner and like he always seems to do, he finds a way to win." For whatever reason, most young boxing fans place little to no importance on boxing intangibles. They get all excited about Tyson's greatest knockout wins and/or the Lewis' longevity, but give a free pass to both men getting knocked out in their primes by journeyman heavyweights and NEVER winning a fight after being knocked down or behind on points.
You have no idea what a journeyman is if you think Douglas, Rahman or McCall come under that description. Then you come up with some illogical condition as though to justify your position with the "Didn't win a fight after being knocked down or after being behind on points" which makes no sense. That's without the fact that you're wrong with Lewis in fact winning a fight by stoppage after being behind on points against Vitali Klitschko. But to top it off, you look at how Lewis lost those fights against Rahman and McCall with the McCall fight being stopped when it shouldn't have. But you should know all about Don King trying to freeze Lewis out as he wouldn't sign up with him. Then the Rahman fight with Lewis turning up to South Africa far too late to acclimatise to the altitude where he gassed out badly and was seen with his mouth wide open from the start trying to get air into his lungs. You however did get the right winner in this fight as Williams did in fact win but got jobbed.
@@seablock Fine...Douglas/Rahman/McCall were not true journeyman, but unlike Tyson and Lewis (e.g., twice), Holmes NEVER lost in his prime. You can make all the excuses you want about those 3 losses, but the FACT remains that Tyson and Lewis combined for 3 defeats by knockout when they were in their prime. I was surprised that Lewis was behind 56-58 on all 3 scorecards in the last fight of his career. My bad, but it doesn't change the importance of intangibles when judging the resume of a fighter. Time and time again, a prime Larry Holmes found a way to win whereas everyone's favorite highlight reel (e.g., Mike Tyson) was knocked out in his prime by a good, but not great or even very good fighter. The same holds true for Lewis' 2 knockout losses which went a combined 7 rounds. For me, the main example of what made Holmes 1 of the 3 greatest heavyweights in boxing history was his performance against then undefeated Ray Mercer. The 42 year old Holmes dominated Mercer whereas Mercer gave a prime Lewis all he could handle in a 10 round slugfest.
in the late 70s into the mid-80s is when every single weekend on one of the networks there was either a championship fight or two top contenders fighting each other
@@djhardcorproductions6132 You got that right my friend.... EVERY weekend , without fail , on free tv , great championship fights or top contenders going up against each other.....
i don`t think holmes lost to witherspoon i just don`t think witherspoon did enough to beat holmes and i watched that fight over and over again now as for carl the truth williams i think he lost the last three and that`s y holmes won
This was nowhere near as big a robbery I thought it was from the last time I watched it (I watched it live as a kid and 7 years ago). The rounds Williams did well in, were very inconsistent and he took long stretches of time off in these rounds. He seemed to out jab Holmes for like 1 45 to 2 minutes and then spent the last minute standing in front of him not doing anything. His corner should have given him holy hell!
i've watched this fight a dozen times over the years. I've never had Holmes winning. I've either had Williams winning 8-7, 8-6-1, or a 7-7-1 draw. After watching for the 13th time, I scored Williams 8-6-1.
Boxing was so corrupt. Two judges had it 146-139 Holmes. NO FUCKING WAY Holmes won this fight. No fucking way he won by 7 points!!!! This fight is why I stopped supporting and watching boxing. Flagrant in your face corruption
@@petersd314 Exactly. The 'reward' that Williams was given was to be ranked in all 3 organizations and be able to make money fighting other contenders. Meanwhile Holmes used his name to make millions fighting Spinks. Ironically enough, Holmes fought better against Spinks in both of those fights than he did in this one, but lost both decisions. R.I.P Carl. You deserved better.
I have scored it 7-6-2 for Holmes with the 5th and 13th round even. Williams fought well, but just not well enough to convincingly earn the heavyweight title. He got in trouble a couple of times in the later rounds and just didn't do enough offensively in those rounds. The Truth himself admitted in the post-fight interview he hadn't beaten Larry ...
the last primetime boxing card televised by the big 3 networks. In the late 70s and early 80s these primetime shows were common place. Those were the days
When an unknown upstart does well against an established and heavily-favored champion, it's easy to overstate his actual level of success in a fight. I always thought that was at play in this fight. Very close, but not a robbery by any standard. The Truth was a beautiful boxer.
I was a friend of the late Carl Williams. I watched this fight back in 1985. I watched it again today, 36 years later. Carl won the fight. How could two of the judges have Holmes win by 7 points. I can tell you that Carl was never the same after this fight. He was a very down to earth person. I miss you Carl!!!
@@paullubin5577 I guess Carl was to Holmes what Norton was to Ali. Just as Norton won the third Ali fight, but was cheated by the judges, Carl certainly won this fight but was robbed as well. All one need do is look at Holmes eye, and it's obvious who who won this bout.
@@jonnydanger7181 Oh pleeeeeze! Williams was robbed here, but no way did Cobb beat Holmes. That fight was a mismatch. I remember how Howard Cosell was so appalled that they didn't end, because Cobb was being beaten so badly, that he stopped working pro boxing matches after that bout.
When the young lions: Witherspoon, Snipes, Williams had Holmes in trouble they never had or knew how to finish the fight, that showed their slight inexperience, like they were googly eyes.
Holmes a VERY close 8-7. He just was more aggressive throughout the bout--And pulled it out in the 15th. (I met one of the judges for this fight years later & he himself told me that he felt that Williams didn't "push" the action, but "coasted" in the latter rounds & thus scored the fight 10-5.)
This fight was 9-6 Holmes or 8-6-1 Holmes. Williams started very well but faded quickly and never really hurt Holmes. He got countered badly and didn't deserve the win, which he admitted in the post-fight interview.
yeah, Holmes was great. way underrated great. At his prime you'd have to say that nobody clearly beats him. He may well have beat both Klitschkos, young ali, young Tyson, a big Lennox Lewis, Foreman, Liston, smoking Joe, Louis. We can argue about any of those fights but we can't argue about his greatness.
i have a theory: tyson was just on the cusp of the 15 round era, by coming in so hard and nasty he often caught these 15 round guys off guard, they fought in a different way at a different pace, like when he fought carl
But it's how he fought everyone so it was up to his opponent to be versatile enough to adjust to his style. Douglass did and later on holyfield, albeit differently, did it too. So it was up to the fighter to recognize the need to make the adjustment and force Tyson to respect it.
Holmes deserved to win by at least a couple of points. Note that he had Williams badly hurt in round 8, end of round 14 and again at the start of 15. But Williams never hurt Holmes. It would have been really unjust if Holmes didn't get the decision.
Larry was probably a little past his best although fought on and off for another 15 years. Carl Williams was one of the best boxers in the division for a few years.
@@TheEwanMC I'd argue that Williams won this fight clearer than Witherspoon. I scored the Holmes/Witherspoon fight a draw, giving the champ the benefit of the doubt. IMHO, Carl won this fight.
First fight I remember watching. Had no idea that it would be the last time a world heavyweight boxing title match would be show live on broadcast TV. It was boring as a kid...but we all thought Williams won. Rewatching it now, it was closer, but he still won in my opinion.
Yeah! I really remember that “young lions” interview! The Truth was a very insightful and articulate. I fully expected him to win a piece of the title after this fight. The Weaver debacle doomed him, and he never got a world title.
Watched this fight again, and still scored it 144-142 Williams. Yes, he did give some rounds away at the end that he shouldn't have. He thought he had a bigger cushion. I can see that tipping the scales toward the one judge that had it 143-142 for Holmes. But 146-139? Those two were paid off.
@@gordonmorris6359 Holmes got a few controversial split decisions until he said disparaging remarks about Marciano and lost a split decision to Spinks. Holmes was robbed.
@@gordonmorris6359 Karl looked so amateurish. Watching this fight for the umpteenth time, Karl just didn't do enough to dispell the reigning champion of his title, as did Spinks in which Holmes was robbed.
I don't know that I would say that his jaw was made of glass but it was certainly suspect. Let's face it. The people that TKO'd him were some pretty hard punchers. (Tyson, Weaver, Morrison) and the others that hurt him (Ferguson, Cooper) had a good punch as well.
I agree with you about both fights. Those who were caught up in all the Pro-Duran hysteria in Montreal weren't able to see what was really happening, which was Sugar Ray out-slugging Duran in the majority of the exchanges.' This fight here, I don't know of the judges were distracted by.
Is this a holmes fight or a rocky documentary.. Ever hear that rocky fights was fixed.. Definition of great white hype .. Joe louis was 157 years old when rocky won...
I had the fight a draw. Williams got off to a good start, using his legs, getting off first, out jabbing Holmes and landing the bigger punches but after 6 rounds his work rate dropped off and Holmes being the crafty old champion picked it up attacking the body and coming back into it. The later rounds were difficult to score as both fighters tired, you could make a case for either guy to have won by a couple of rounds but for me no way was it an out and out robbery.
Ernie Shavers was someone. He had the highest KO percentage in heavyweight history and Holmes beat him twice. Ken Norton was someone. He was the champion in 1978 and many believe he beat Muhammad Ali twice. Jerry Cooney was someone. He knocked out Ken Norton & Ron Lyle. He was also 25-0 with 21 KO's going into the Holmes fight. Who knows how many more champs there would have been if Holmes wasn't knocking them off one by one? He also handled Ali and Joe Frazier in sparring before he turned pro.
@I DON'T CARE I DON'T CARE Yes it was a condom with water and only used because the corner didn't want to look like they weren't prepared.. My only question for them would be.. who thought to bring a condom and why.
I new Carl, he would come by my house to run .around Hempstead lake. I new back then. watching.Carl Sparing. That he would. Be a good freighter. ...TO THE CARL. WILLIAMS FAMILY. IM SORRY FOR YOUR. LOST...UNTIL WE MEET AGAIN CARL ...MAY YOU REST IN PEACE. GOD BLESS. ...
When did Carl the truth Williams died a lot of these cut boxers died that I don't even know about their a lot of good Fighters have died like Greg Page Ron Lyle Michael dokes when a good Champion dies heavyweight champion especially they should be honored don't too many people when the heavyweight champion that's not an easy task
Larry Holmes had a 47-0 record, and was champ for 7 years when he met Carl "The Truth" Williams, so NBC chose to make their pre-fight programming an in-depth bio of Rocky Marciano! That story should've been used if and when Larry could tie Rocky with a 49th victory, Even their interview with Holmes steers him toward discussing Marciano. PS, Dick Enberg is wearing a bizarre tux with over-sized velvet lapels, a loud jazzbow and freaky ruffled shirt. Jose Feliciano performs the National Anthem with the enthusiasm he put into any song.
And that's why I gave you a list of skills that Larry Holmes had in his prime. Other than maybe Joe Louis, I don't know another heavyweight that was more technically sound than Holmes was but even at that being said, Holmes could change his style. He even figured out the "rope a dope" strategy later in his career that helped him beat Mercer. That takes skill. Tyson couldn't do that, Louis couldn't do that and only one other heavyweight champion could change styles like that. Muhammad Ali.
Jerry Roth was the only judge who got his right, with Holmes barely winning by a 143-142 count. The other 2 judges called it 146-139, or 11 rounds for Holmes and 4 rounds for Williams........those cards were absurd.
The fact that two judges gave Larry ELEVEN rounds is shameful. I've seen a lot of boxing matches and that one was scored as outrageously as any of them. Criminal.
And see when I was younger I did t understand but goi g back watch those fights some people they never ever mentioned gave our heroes so e tough times but got robbed because of the business of it
IT'S NOT BECAUSE THEY LIKE CARL THE TRUTH THAT THEY WANTED HIM TO WIN THE FIGHT SO BAD.THE TRUTH IS THEY WERE SCARED THAT HOLMES BEATS THE MACINO RECORD OF 49 FIGHTS. I WAS SO HAPPY THAT HE WAN THAT FIGHT HE IS A REAL CHAMPION.
This was barely a fight. One man just abusing an old warhorse who lacked the same talent, and couldn't do anything with his experience. Easy fight for Williams. This was the worst possible style of fighter for Holmes, or any boxer. Too much reach, and too strong of a jab. Two assets Holmes always had, but never to the same extent. I gave it to Williams 10-5. A one-sided beatdown.
Another thing you're wrong about is that he was an Ali clone. Of course he picked up some aspects of his game from Ali but they were two totally different fighters. Holmes had a better jab, he went to the body more whereas Ali was a head hunter, he circled his man and stayed off the ropes while his mentor would back peddle right into them and he was a superior infighter. Holmes had great movement but he could also go toe to toe with the best of them. That wasn't the case with Ali.
This is the first time I've really watched this entire fight since I was probably 13 or 14 y.o. I used to feel sorry for Larry getting the RUNAROUND against Spinks both times but after witnessing this fight AINTNAMORE. Larry should've went into the first Spinks fight 47-1 So karma came thru in the end.
The boxing world wanted Holmes to be undefeated at 49-0 that way it would be more of a money draw, think about it how is it that he lost to Spinks and by doing so Marcianos record stays in tack. Then Spinks fights Tyson both undefeated but Spinks gets knocked out, and never ask for a rematch, but ends up retiring after his only lost.😒IJS
When master boxer meets master boxer it becomes chess match spunks can slip punches better because he was smaller man remember spinks came from light heavy
In those days if you're the champion the 13th 14th 15th round were the Championship rounds. Larry Holmes won those 3 rounds that's how he retained his title in my book.
This was the last of the good ole days of watching championship boxing fro free on network TV. I remember this fight. It was Larry's last victory before he finally lost to Spinks. A lot of people thought he lost this fight. I know he was wore out at the end. I was 2 months shy of 16 when I saw this fight.
Me too; I remember Williams got famous for awhile, telling people he was the 'uncrowned king.' But then we started to hear about this knockout artist from Brooklyn, who was trained by Cus D'Amato.
there was two ways to beat Holmes. Outjab him like Weatherspoon & Williams did, or time Holmes jab with a counter crushing right hand the way Tyson did
@@sihlembabe6585 he never lost the fight vs witherspoon, no way. You probably have in mind the 9th round and some body shots. Boxing is not based on one strong round. Yeah it was a close fight in every round, but how many rouds Tim has really won against Larry, honestly ? PS: i just rewatched the fight the other, with and then without the sound ( to not hear Dundee scream for everthing witherspoon did lol ). And So i repeat, Holmes won that fight vs witherspoon, there's no controversy.
Holmes was such a badass, that even after his prime year's he lasted longer than most fighters in their prime when he fought Tyson. I think if I saw the fight right, his arm got tangle on the ropes and that's when he got caught and knocked out.
Then you need to figure out what having technical ability means because Holmes had it all in his prime. The greatest jab in heavyweight history, an excellent right hand and a powerful uppercut. He was a good combination puncher, he went to the body and he had fantastic foot work. He could fight at range, toe to toe or close in. His hand speed and reflexes were also top notch. His only weakness was supposed to be his punching power but 48-0 with 34 KO's is good & he was a great technical fighter
For sure, but Rocky beat every top guy in his era and retired undefeated - a feat no heavyweight champion has yet equaled. That's his greatness. As for Larry Holmes, he was the best talent and most professional and consistent champion ever. He belongs in everybody's top 5 greatest heavyweights of all time - no doubt!
Rocky, had he fought in the 80s, would have been a 220 Pound Heavyweight. Had Holmes or Williams fought in the 50s, they would have been 195 0ound Heavyweights
"Winning by decision is like a beauty contest "by Larry Holmes. I like the blatant racism by the medid.Larry Holmes fought mostly young boxers & beat them.Rita Marchino fought 30 no hopers & 19 old boxers.He run away from the hard punchers of his divison.He was kd by an old light heavyweight at his last fight. He was a made up hero & proteced by the Italian mafia. Larry Holmes is 1 of the greatiest hw champion of all time.He beat mostly young boxers.
Larry Holmes was a great Champion but your tirade against Marciano is silly. Marciano retired undefeated and KO’d Archie Moore in the 9th round of a scheduled 15 round fight. The heavyweights of the 1960 and’70s were the best because it was much more lucrative than football or basketball.
@Joepie De poepie I agree, there's no need for racism here. There's great boxers of many nationalities & colors. This is the year 2020, not 1920. We all live in the same World, peace is always preferred over racism.
Yeah younger boxers with less experience also.the older not old boxers were mostly hall of famers.rocky didn't fight all east fighters.both of them are two of the best ever n no one really knows how a fight between them would have went but wouldn't be easy for either one that's the truth
Rocky Marciano was either fighting older or overthehill boxers .....and yes, he was very much protected by the mafia. Holmes will always be a true champion , and what a great fighter Williams turned out to be also.
Bruce Lee is a made Up Hero n Holly Wood but Did get the word out to Mix Martial Arts But He has No Fights .Rocky that's selling Him Short and the Mafia Short .Usally When its all the Mafia they Don't let U Retire Undefeated Champion with 6 Title Defenses 49-0 at 32 Years old and yes Mafia Was involved .Think They were Involved N the 64 and 65 Ali Fights Sunny Liston Now There out The sport as Far Fury Kicked Wilders Ass No Mafia n These Big Fights and Most of Them r Jail.
It wasn't exhibition fights that Marciano supposedly fought that were counted as professional. It was amateur fights, especially one against Coley Wallace.
I remember watching this fight live and feeling that Williams got robbed. In retrospect watching again today 27 years later it was a much closer fight than I had remembered. I still thought that Williams won but stylistically it made for a fight with a lot of close rounds so I could see some judges giving it to the champion by a close margin. The ridiculous part is that two of the judges had it 146-139 (11 rounds to 4 for Holmes!?) No way in hell you can tell me that Williams only won 4 rounds.
What I remember most was when they interviewed Williams after the fight and they asked him if he thought he won, he said "No"..That was sure unexpected!
Holmes made a career of struggling with novice heavyweights, getting bad decisions against them, and never giving them a return fight (Weaver, Snipes, Williams, Witherspoon). The only thing Holmes was great at was thumbing.
They all get away with a low blow, thumb, whatever now & then. Boxing is a contact sport, unlike golf, sometimes when throwing a punch, it'll land the wrong way. That's the way boxing goes, have seen far more low blows versus Holmes thumbing in my lifetime. Even Foreman got away with hitting with his hand open, other got away with arm punching, wo will give a pass on Holmes for the occasional thumb. At least he had the guts to remain in his nation & fight, over 7 years as World Champion. Few has held the title that long & I know Ali never did, Holmes kicked his dead ass before Dundee threw in the towel, as always ducking a war. I seen the fight live, even a prime Ali couldn't beat Holmes.
Punch count doesn't equal connect rate. Holmes was very good defensive fighter. Closer than the decision but not an outrageous outcome. Williams spent to much time on his 'bicycle" for no apparent reason. Ali danced a lot, but when he did engage, his connect rate was extremely high. Zora Folley could attest to that.
ROBBERY...the judge who had it 46-39 or whatever Holmes... OMGosh!! Williams displayed the crispiest, most sublime jab in the history of boxing.. Very underrated CLASSIC. And, did ya'll notice the look on Holmes when it was over? For sure, he thought he lost that fight.
I agree. Williams should've got the decision. However, he brought it on himself by coasting through the later rounds by doing hardly any work. Just flicking out the jab, staying out of range and throwing the odd arm punch, against an aging, flat footed and out of shape Lary Holmes, who was there for taking. I suspect, the judges awarded Homles the inactive rounds because he was the one forcing the action. I'm old school; to win a world title from the champion, you should go out there and make a statement. Rip the belt from his waist. Prove to everyone you are the clear winner. Williams did great things in the earlier rounds with his footwork, extra reach, crisp jab and fast combos, but he didn't maintain it throughout the fight.
I watched it on TV "live" Thought Williams won. Watching it again I see Wiliams give away about 4 rounds and had it 143-142 Holmes. With 4 swing rounds that I felt Carl was "The False" by giving them away.
He did give rounds away, and he should've known better. That being said, I still scored it 8-6-1 Williams. His sister says he was haunted by this fight for the rest of his career. He thought he'd won, but he knows he took some rounds off. Although 146-139 was ridiculous. 11-4? Come on.
Larry Holmes won a lot of fights. Larry Holmes is an all-time great. Larry Holmes earned his spot in he HOF. Larry Holmes did not win this fight. Carl Wiliams did. Carl deserved to have gotten the belt after this.
Larry Holmes beat Rocky Marciano's record at this point because Marciano fought his brother 4 times in order to boost up his record and was suspended for it. Not many people know this.