Today we learn about the last stand of the oldest of the Royal Navy's ships named 'Revenge'. Want to support the channel? - / drachinifel Want to talk about ships? / discord Music - / ncmepicmusic
Who would win the naval war in the Spanish Civil War assuming full willingness to fight on behalf of the various sailors committees that were formed in the aftermath of the July rising, lack of outside intervention and a slightly more aggressive Republican admiralty. Could the Republic win it? Or would the more modern cruisers and better officer class of the Nationalists enable them to pull ahead?
When was the transition from galleon to ship of the line or man of war? Was the change from carrack to galleon to ship of the line more of a name change and change in tactics, or did it represent a change in technology and engineering like we saw in the 1800s and 1900s with the transition from ironclad to early battleships to dreadnoughts to fast battleships? Was it a slow change over time where various types of ships would still serve together (carracks and galleons or galleons and shipsoftheline) and the border between true carracks and true galleons is fuzzy with plenty of intermediate ship designs presented, or is it a fast change like we saw with dreadnought, where it was a more sudden shift that could be attributed to a few notable individuals pushing it out into the world, where its unveiling obsoleted those before it?
How much authority does an admiral have over their flagship as i have read a couple of captains over ruling their admirals orders like the Bismark captain so is it a case that the captain is responsible for the fleet while the captain is responsible for the ship so if a group of battleships are ordered to move in a battle but the captain of the flagship feels his ship can't do it he can over rule the admiral
Those crafty Spaniards.. They sent wave after wave of their ships in front of the Revenges cannons until they ran out of munitions. Clearly the work of a tactical mastermind.
Internetspaceships Actually, this is the same tactic that 20 against 1 use in their efforts to subdue the hero in martial arts movies, attacking in waves of 1, 2, or 3 at a time, allowing each successive wave to be defeated. If all 20 were to attack at once, where would be the sport of battle?
Probably a pistol, a full sized musket ball would shatter the skull. His change in behaviour could be seen as damage to the frontal cortex, which is survivable in most cases. As musket balls tend to flatten on impact it would be more of a energy transfer rather than a penetrating shot. The brain is good at absorbing kinetic energy since it is soft and squishy.
I recall decades ago, at school, the class I was in had a rather antique poem about the action drummed into us, of which all I can now remember are a few lines on Grenville's extreme reluctance to surrender and his preferred alternative "Sink me the ship, Master Gunner. Sink her. Split her in twain! Fall into the hands of God, Not into the hands of Spain" The education of small boys in many English schools in those days was still VERY traditional
I believe that's Tennyson's "The Revenge." Hearing Drach's account made me quite surprised how accurate Tennyson's version was -- very little "poetic license." Maybe none was needed! It's easy to see that this story would appeal to the author of "the Charge of the Light Brigade." I discovered it on my own -- by my time in the US that poem was not taught in school, it was considered politically incorrect. It begins: "At Flores in the Azores Sir Richard Grenville lay And a pinnace, like a fluttered bird, came flying from far away..." (From memory, the book fell apart 20 years ago)
"Unfortunately, even for a man such as Grenville, sheer force of anger could not countermand an arquebus to the head" This sound like something out of Warhamer40k
24:00 -- "... the crewmen of the Revenge ... waited for the Inevitable...." -- Can't help noticing that the English naming scheme for their ships makes me chuckle at the double entendre of HMS Inevitable finally arriving. Who was ever really in command of the Inevitable, amirite?? #LULZ
@Jimmy De'Souza This is what made me laugh, knowing that the concept fits the naming scheme but is entirely inappropriate. Every time the Inevitable arrived, No Help Came.
@@Feiora Indefatigable? Indubitably! I was thinking about writing HMS Inevitable Fan Fiction, all the same. Like the time HMS Inevitable showed up at the Battle of Little Bighorn.
Well I am a man that is interested in WW I and WW II ships/battles/stories Listening to this is like .... Hmmmm, history has more to offer What a story, I want more
It did remind me of something I came across with fighter pilots in the days before missiles about being greatly out numbered. It did not matter how many there were only one could get behind you.
The British did the same to a Spanish ship called Glorioso which was carrying treasure from the new world. But the Glorioso defeated the British 3 times and lost the fourth. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_of_the_Glorioso But Gloriosos did still get to deliver it's gold intact.
In 1587, when John White, governor of the Roanoke Colony, returned to England for supplies, he sought the assistance of Richard Grenville. Grenville was preparing a relief expedition when Queen Elizabeth I decided that every available ship was required to meet the Spanish Armada. When White was finally able to return to Roanoke in 1590, the colonists had disappeared without a trace. The mystery of what became of the Lost Colony of Roanoke has never been solved.
The book you credited 'Against The Odds' sounds like an excellent read, (& right down my alley), so I sought it out on Amazon, to no avail, then ebay as that has proven an excellent, (& inexpensive), source in the past. I found 1 used copy...at $126.00, far too rich for this old pensioner. I stand with some of your other followers requesting "storytime" more frequently. Thanking you in advance. Keep up the good work, you are appreciated. Gary in Alaska
Two copies in stock at $5.39 US (We pensioners need to look out for each other) - www.worldofbooks.com/en-us/books/alexander-mckee/against-the-odds/GOR009810681?gclid=Cj0KCQjww7HsBRDkARIsAARsIT5VTvf8eM9HQdf_yp0uRo2U8DW9Ulg826BWC40jtnDNe8AsdePfYEcaAhvpEALw_wcB
American Radio operator: "This is American Allied command. Report, What is your situation? Over." British Field commander: "We're not in the most comfortable position. Over." (Translation: We are taking heavy casualties and need immediate support) American Radio operator: * Hangs up, assuming they have everything under control. *
Somewhere out there, the spirits of the crew of HMS Revenge are sharing drinks with the crews of the USN's famous 'Taffy 3.' I'm pretty certain that "Dammit boys, they're getting away!" would not have seemed at all out-of-place to the British sailors there.
Fantastic my house at school was Grenville, the other houses being Raliegh, Drake and Frobisher as the school was given its original charter by Elizabeth I. This is a story I know well, this was well told.
Incredible story, what an extraordinary bravery and resilience the Revenge's crew displayed. Taken into account all the Spanish ships that were either directly sunk by the Revenge or later due to battle damage sunk by the storm, one could argue that Grenville and the Revenge absolutely won that engagement.
Fifteen spanish ships (in addition to the captured Revenge) appear to have been lost in that storm! A total of seventeen ships sunk for the loss of a single vessel - "Another such victory and..."
Somehow still alive, and while you might expect that being shot by an archebus to the head might... discourage you from further action, it does not seem to have had this effect on Grenville.
Grenville probably understood that all his ships could not get away unless the Spanish fleet was distracted. He would have been caught or killed anyway.
I love the humor you lend to these stories. I mean, some of these circumstances....You can only marvel at the cajones of people who earn the respect of the enemy through sheer fighting tenacity. You have to laugh a little at the absurdity. You describe the visuals well and we can enjoy a show.
Hi! I really like this format and the indepth stories, but do you consider covering similar adventures from the French, Spainiards and Dutch if possible (guess it is a sources issue)? Yes, thanks to the Yanks the internet is an anglophile world, but I'd be really interested in some history about the other naval powers some more. Just like the British the Spaniards did not accidently control a vast colonial empire for the first half of the colonial era because they were bad shipwrights and sailors. Just like the British of the 19th century, they were considered the big guy around the block and arguably for a while it were the Dutch, not the English, that provided them the biggest headaches. In similar terms small Portugal and the Netherlands punched far above their weights as colonial powers by successfully controlling and competing for naval routes against other European navies. I would just be interested in a broader spectrum as imo YT history is very English / American biased in a lot of the stories. There must be similar stories of other plucky heroes.
That's true, and Drach does cover all nations. That said, the age of sail was absolutely dominated by the Royal Navy, so just statistically, most stories of heroic action will involve them. Also the Admiralty keeps records. Few other nations bothered to preserve their history of defeat.
Since you're dealing with this age of naval history as well, may I suggest doing a video on the battle of Køge Bay, from the Scanian War between Denmark and Sweden? It was a decisive battle where a larger Swedish force under Admiral Horn was all crushed by a smaller Danish fleet under Admiral Juel. Furthermore, some reports say that the Danish admiral, Niels Juel, ordered his ships to break through the Swedish line, shooting down the length of the ships with concentrated broadsides, over a century before Nelson used the same tactics at Trafalgar. That, however, I have been unable to fully confirm ... but perhaps your research could dig something up? Just a suggestion, anyway ... but considering that this wasn't a minor skirmish but a full blown battle with around eighty ships involved, I would think it might be of interest.
Let me just say, I love love love love the fact the title say's a "Five Minute Guide" but every episode is 40 min to an hour long. It is delightful to sit down to one of these episodes, eat dinner, and enjoy the history.
hey Drachs! This was a very amazing story that, quite honestly, I’ve never heard of before but so glad I heard it here ^_^ Hope your throat is doing better btw >_
At flories in the Azores, Sir Richard Grenville lay, When a pinnace like a fluttered bird, Came flying from far away, “Spanish ships of war at sea, We have sited 53.” Then spake sir Thomas Howard “Before God I am no coward And I’ve never turned my back upon don nor Devil yet, But I’ve 90 men and more who are lying sick ashore.”
Even low the man was bit slow to get under way, He did a lot of damage to the enemy to make them think twice next time they tackled an english ship, sunk 2 in the battle damage a number of others so they sank on the way home. thats good going
7:36 -- This is sideways to what you're discussing with this video -- but hey, let's have a look at why the Azores is so terribly important, strategically. Could you please show a map which includes a plot of the distances between the following locations: Portugal, Ireland, the Azores, Iceland, and Newfoundland. I think we'll find that there are some legs that are pretty close to equidistant.
^^ ALSO, this is an interesting topic for discussion, because there is reason to believe this is also a very very old ocean-going route, via the Azores. Like, possibly Bronze Age old. Portugal to Ireland, that's not "possible", that's Understood to be the case.
@@jamespfp The insistence that ancient societies could not navagate the deep sea is pervasive. And yet there are indications of trade between New Zealand and the various Pacific isles dating back to the relatively ancient times not too long after she was first colonized by the Maori. There are signs of trade routes to the British Isles in the ancient Mediterranean. And folks always mutter tales of signs of similar trade in the Americas. I'm not confident that any ship in the era could survive long enough to cross the Atlantic without being blown there by a storm. There certainly is no trace of long term trade into those regions. The trade to the British isles shows signs of being fairly frequent but short lived. And the trade in the Pacific isles? Seems fairly likely to have been devastated by a Tsunami event from who knows where. Whatever the truth there are no cultural traditions or tales speaking of the ancient trade routes in Maori tales today. The signs on Easter Island suggest regular trade between the Pacific and South America. Yet the South American signs are never seen in the Pacific Isles, suggesting the trade between both sides never crossed over in the middle. Presumably trade was two way in both cases but maybe the paths to get there and back were lost in generations in between? The general body of evidence is that regular trade along these routes was not a common event: and if it did happen it was not sustained for long periods of time. Perhaps the sailors who discovered these far flung locations to trade with kept the exact bay they were visiting secret, perhaps they were destroyed by rivals seeking their secrets. Perhaps the novelty of the goods obtained wore off and the voyages became unprofitable. Maybe these traders all did good work but were ultimately done in by natures fury, with serious storms destroying their vessels. Definitely in the Pacific there are signs that serious disasters and starvation due to over-population (logging every tree useful for boats in some cases) causing catastrophic damage to those societies living there. Ancient Sailors probably used skill, training and wisdom to navigate. It's not like mathematics were unknown to the ancients, they just lacked the easy tools to replicate results. And in a world where most people cannot write: it is extremely difficult to pass down tricks like watching for the north star, or what constellation is on the horizon just before dawn to help tell you where you are, a single lost verbal tradition can set back a society by hundreds of years.
Any estimate of number of Spanish ships lost ? Damage caused by Revenge contributaning ? Did delay keeping fleet together towing the prize cause prolonged exposure to the storm ?
I'm no naval historian, but from what I can find 2 ships were sunk by the Revenge and 2 others were sunk in the battle due to a collision, with a total loss of around 100 men. The storm sank the Revenge and 15 Spanish ships, but I've not found any casualty totals. I think all these should be credited to the Revenge, which has to be one of, if not the highest battle records of any one ship for a single action. Of course most wouldn't give her the credit for the ships lost in the storm.
@@lostpony4885 I think to be honest we just drag crap weather everywhere with us, I go on holiday and we get storms, visited the sahara once... IT FUCKING RAINED!
I think I saw an old movie about this battle and the "Revenge" of the crew on the Spanish ships years latter. It was one of those 1950-60s movies that stretched history a bit but do not remember its name.
They did, but their cannons were land cannons, and their crews much less well trained. These two factors, mainly the first one lead to the Spanish cannonfire being GLACIALLY slow, which is why the Spanish ships took turns firing salvos, because it was faster than sitting still in one ship and reloading the guns. So yes, they did have main battery guns, but they were markedly inferior.
This story is fascinating & interesting, I wish that I was aware of it over half a century ago when I attended primary school. There were 4 school houses, Drake was yellow, Frobisher was red, Grenville was blue & Hawkins was green, I was happy to be in Grenville because its colour was blue however knowing more about the Revenge would have made it so much cooler.
How insane is it that 50 years later you randomly listen to a 39 min long story detailing the final stand of the Revenge whose badass angry captain was the namesake of your house at your Alma Mater. Life is pretty cool sometimes.
To my inexperienced American eye, the pic of Drake reminds me of Black Adder, Lord Percy, and that Lord Flashheart(?) guy. The Black Adder time period where Percy invents "pure green". Did lords, commanders, captains, etc. really dress that way while on board ship? Or was that just formal wear worn for court and pictures? I would imagine that huge codpieces and puffy clothes would get in the way of working on a ship.
Very Interesting and epic story thanks Have not read all comments so may be repeating, but no such ship as HMS Revenge (at this point). British or rather English warships did not have this designation of "HMS" till much later on. How about the profiling the Russian WW1 armoured cruiser Rurik, said by some to be the finest armoured cruiser ever built. Thanks
The main spanish problem was the useless king. The uncle of this admiral in the vid was admiral Álvaro de Bazán, who won the battle of Punta Delgada in 1582 outnumbered by european privateers, the first time in history only using artillery to defeat the enemy, which gave Britain the example how to organize the home-fleet in the future. Staying in Lisbon, when Drake attacked Cadiz in 1587, Álvaro de Bazán was not supported by the spanish king and died early, it is written. He would have been a more difficult task to crash him in the channel in 1588 for the lucky Brits. In Grenville's last battle the Spaniards had still not understand the inventions of their former brillant admiral. Grenville's raid to the Azores was badly organized. They knew that they had to wait for the spanish silver-transports, and did not managed a frequent supply-support from Portsmouth. As Drachinifel mentioned most historians are wrong, judging the 1588 spanish defeat in the channel as the major point of lost spanish sea-superiourity. This assumption is false. The Spaniards lost their domination in 1639 at the battle of the Downs when the dutch admiral Tromp defeated the Spaniards heavily and blockaded the neutral english fleet, which was present in english waters.
I have heard of getting your retaliation in first but this was a case of getting you Revenge in first. And considering all of the damage she caused and those ships she sank or left in too bad a condition to survive the storm I think any victory the Spanish claimed over the Revenge was somewhat pyrrhic.
On the subject of general history of WW2, would you care to take a turn at the campaigns in the Indian Ocean. There are lots and lots of content about the Pacific and the Atlantic campaigns but I have not read much about the Indian Ocean conflict. Thanks for your wit and approach to your videos. I hope that you find comfort in your new digs!
Q/A: What were the biggest shortcoming of the Japanese AAA aboard the ships in WW2? The shortrange guns were terrible, but what about artillery (75mm and above) and their firecontrol?
Everything? :P Nah, not really actually. By Pearl Harbor the IJN AA was no worse than USN. That changed very quickly. Think about that. ;) The IJN just lacked numbers of weapons and picked the wrong weapon during the interwar years, like pretty much every navy. Only the Royal Netherlands navy made the right call by going for the Bofors and pairing it with a proper fire control system. That system got copied by the RN, and the concept by the USN. Unlike other navies, the IJN didn't have the industrial capacity to correct their mistake. They tried with there own Bofors copy but failed to produce it. To sum it up. -The 25mm AA was not as terrible as people often think it was. On land an 25mm AA gun would be quite useful because it can deter an enemy plane or cause it to miss, thus achieving the goal of protection. In case of ships this deterrence comes to late. Torpedo bombers will generally have dropped there torpedoes before coming into effective range of a 20-25mm class AA gun and dive bombers are very hard to hit when they commence their dive. They need to be taken out before that, and you again lack the range to do it. An Oerlikon for example is hardly better than an 25mm AA and the Oerlikon never gets picked on as being terrible. The problem was that you need power traverse and elevation to effectively track targets, especially dive bombers. The IJN 25mm AA mounts didn't have that, 40mm Bofors on USN ships did. Combine that with a better effective range and the 25mm AA fails on warships like just about every other contemporary gun of its class. -The heavy guns where a bigger problem. The 75 degree AA mounts on some Japanese DD's where useless because the gun uses bag charges. Basically you needed to depress the gun after every salvo to reload. That means you will get one, maybe two salvo's off before the planes are dropping there ordnance. You are not hitting anything like this. In general the Japanese 12,7cm type 3 guns where just bad because of this, even in surface engagements. They have no hope of matching pretty much any contemporary DD gun in terms of RoF. Then main AA gun the IJN initially adopted was the 12cm type 12. That one got replaced on a lot of ships by the arguably worse 12,7cm Type 89. For a heavy AA gun muzzle velocity matters. Thus the Japanese introduced a new weapon with a lower muzzle velocity. I have no idea why they thought this was a good idea... The USN also had a fairly low muzzle velocity AA gun in the 5"/38, but at least they had a system around this otherwise mediocre gun to make it preform much better. -Finally the fire control computer the IJN had for heavy AA was actually not bad at all. The main problem was the lack of automatisation. Basically you had to manually enter the data provided while a US system was all automatic. In the USN system the guns where laid on target by remote control. That helps a lot because you only need to load the gun and fire. There are no errors to be made when you manually convert a firing solution into bearing elevation for the heavy AA. Neither are you wasting time with a firing solution that gets outdated in a second...
Whoever named the ship "The Revenge" clearly had some foresight! Not really sure why they wanted revenge but it would seem to me that vengeance had been achieved.
So the English lost a single ship while the Spanish lost as many as fifteen. That's a damn good trade given the wholly inadequate levels of planning that went into the English expedition in the first place.
While Greenvilles recklessness and pride did cost his men their lives, being shot in the chest and then head and still fighting is pretty respectable. I feel like the captain mimicked the revenge. Also his strategy makes me think of Leroy Jenkins.
This action was the subject of a poem that was later set to music by Sir Charles Villiers Stanford. Available on Chandos label, in ‘Songs of the Fleet’. Worth a listen!
Please cover on more age of sail! I would love a video about the rating system in the Royal Navy vs the rating system of the French Marine Royale or Spanish Navy! Or perhaps a simple one on Elizabethean ships? Regardless, keep up the good work!
If you like this you will love the story of the Spanish ship Glorioso defeating multiple British ships while all alone and carrying treasure from the new world.
One of the very few ships that can be mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Warspite, Victory and USS Enterprise, and be considered at least a peer.
I know it’s extra work, but I wonder if it’d be more fitting to intro these episodes about sailing ships, the soundtrack and footage represented the age of sail
@@Drachinifel There was a song, popular in the Royal Navy in Nelson's time, although the name escapes me at the moment, I've been up all night and it's ten am here. You could always use the 1812 overture, the cannon fire fits in nicely! I'm all for more Story of the age of sail!
Oh goodee! I exclaimed to myself while painting...McKee is a superb writer. In 1962 I read his account of the loss of the Royal Charter 1859 in -'The Golden Wreck' and can still quote from it. In the late seventies I discovered his account of the Spanish Armada: just as enthralling in style.
Wow!.....Just WOW! Why isn't there a movie about this? Hollywood could make it an American ship captained by Tom Cruise (who survives), fighting to show his unrequited love for a Spanish princess is honourable, just like him.
