Laticrete Hydro Ban Cementitious OUTPERFORMS Ardex 8+9 in Glass Box Test 

8+9 says 1to 1 mix unless mixing for filling larger gaps.

Watched the video all the way through! and thought Ardex would for sure outperform Hydroban with the cracking and pin holes. The result was very surprising at the end, great video!

I'm a contractor 30 plus years. When it needs to be said say it, Your awesome! Wish you all the best of success this business can give you. 👍

Concerning the air bubbles. If you mix it with a little slower drill you’ll fight less bubbles. Our mix is +/- 10% water. Once you mix it regularly you can dial it in. Also note, you’re adding water to the mix and it is creating a chemical cure. Interesting video.

Before using the 8+9 I talked to a very knowledgeable rep from Ardex and he gave me detailed instructions for use ... he told me to mix very well at a 1 to 1 ratio and mix with a paddle bit for at least 3 minutes but preferred 5 minutes.... the mix at that point changes consistency and becomes very creamy because all of the polymers begin to emulsify...I used one batch that I didn’t mix well enough and it behaved like a different animal ...all that being said I’ll do a cardboard box test myself because this surprised me ...

It's long but worth the 45-second read -- To all the professionals out there.... go to the manufacturer's website and watch the manufacturer's training and product videos. As great of a guy that this gentleman appears to be, he did almost everything incorrectly. Please stop putting all your faith in RU-vid videos that are not endorsed by manufacturers. Manufacturers have mixing specifications for a reason. Read the entire "printed" technical data sheet (TDS) listed on the manufacturer’s website. It is in your best interest to not only read the pail, jug, or bucket - but also read the complete product TDS. You are not receiving complete product recommendations and you might be missing critical information. He measured his Laticrete but eyed the Ardex and then makes a statement that the Ardex surprisingly did not waterproof as well. He should have done 2 different tests side by side (not 2 products in the same mockup). Waterproofing is very specific. It either works or it does not. You're waterproofed or you are not. And when the product is mixed incorrectly, it often will not perform as advertised/expected. The latex in Ardex 8+9 is critical because it along with the proper powder ratio creates the waterproofing membrane. If you notice it was mixed it up thick with less latex. This was an incorrect ratio. If you are not mixing the "entire unit" and just skimming off small amounts of powder from the top of the bag, you might not have all the critical components/powder as materials separate in transport. Get in the habit of mixing complete kits/units for the best results. Mixing half or partial units only leads to problems. Waste is a job cost. Plan on waste - charge accordingly. If the material was properly dry blended first using a dry drill and clean pail and then some powder was scooped out, it would have been a better approach. Did he properly agitate the Ardex liquid to make sure it was well blended? Solids settle in latex and improper mixing causes failures. Why use Ardex 8+9 over Kerdi? Kerdi is a waterproofing all by itself - redundant. If he is using waterproofing to seam the Kerdi, Schluter would recommend using the Kerdi Band and a non-modified thin-set. All I am saying...if you learn something incorrectly and then follow the incorrect information yourself, who is responsible should a problem occur? Talk to your local product representative, read the manufacturer's printed information, and go to the manufacturer's product training. You will improve your understanding by avoiding any possible misinformation.

I've spent about 48 hours over the past few months watching your videos. I love the build science in your videos! Would love to see you team up with Matt Reisner.

I think the air bubbles are caused by the mixer, and the speed of the drill. The air - that forms the bubble - is already in the mix before you apply the coats. Great video and thanks. You've really helped me with my first shower install.

One other thing about the pinholes and cracking. HB Cementitious can be made thicker with your mix. You can get a better result with a flat trowel application. Thicker isn’t better. 40 mils is the application.

I would love to see a standard Schluter pan without an added waterproofing with tile, grout, and silicone. Do a few day sprinkler test and see if any water gets through it all.

Would be interesting to see how each holds up after the perspex box has been twisted/flexed a little to replicate structural movement/timber shrinkage etc. and see which handles it better or is more prone to cracking.

You’re absolutely right about the instructions. Been retired for quite a few years but I cannot remember how many times I would yell at guys read the instructions so many workers think they’re above reading instructions. They all think they’re too cool for school

Been using laticrete products back in the 80s. They been around a long time . They were pricey back then,and still now. But it is a proven company. And still using there product. Great demo as always.👍 you still need to work on you short game lol.

The air bubbles are probably due to using the drill, maybe a lower speed would be better. Or hand mixing unless you are having a big area. Good job on your videos. Been doing tile work for over 30 years and I have seen everything!

I appreciate you doing these tests and sharing them! I always try to test my materials as much as possible but it's hard for me to test every product as thoroughly as I would like so it's always been important for me to have a network of professionals to consult with and get feed back from. You're extending that network in a helpful and impactful way! One of the things I love about tile is how long lasting it can be but it's only long lasting if it's done right. In testing materials I find an important step in the process is pushing the material to the point of failure because no product is good for everything and you have to understand the attributes of the materials you're working with to be able to know what's going to perform well in the range of situations you're going to encounter. This video illustrates that point very well!

you provide so much knowledge and experience,you are a very valuable resource

For floor applications, polyurethane probably is a better option than cementitious coatings because they are more rigid and subject to crack. Cementitious coatings from where I live do have different flexibility options, the more flexible ones are for floor applications. For wall applications, we use more rigid cementitious coatings because the flexible ones may risk sagging once tiles are laid. Also , regardless of what coatings you use, the industry best practice stipulates that transition from vertical wall to floor be smoothed out or be made a 45 degree angle before applying coating to minimize cracking. But it's seldomly followed by residential contractors, some of them just use fibre mesh for reinforcement instead.

Great video. I use Durock with Redguard. Been doing it for 15 years or so. No issues that. However, I just use the mesh tape for the durock, so Redguard is completely exposed to the air. I love that you test products. I have used kirdy, schluter membrane and schluter panels. I have found that Durock and Redguard when installed correctly is the best bang for the buck. Thanks for your videos. Casey K.

Great content. I think the rapid set mortar wasn’t cured long enough and caused the air bubbles and somewhat invalidated the test as the membranes were compromised before they could cure as a solid membrane. The test illustrated the better tolerance of the one product to a surface that wasn’t ready for waterproofing. You are much more knowledgeable in the trade than I am and you continue to educate me on tile and shower pans. I appreciate your videos. I am no expert, just an engineer. Thanks. I just used 8+9 two days ago and feel that I was actually looking for a product like laticrete and thought the Ardex 8+9 was more of a cement. Ultimately I am glad I used the Ardex and am pleased with the flexibility of the Ardex.

I think it's good to let the hydroban slake 5 to 10 minutes then re mix before you apply it. That should help with the bubbles. I always like to low speed my mixes also as it doesn't whip as much air into it. Great demonstration... I have always liked the laticrete products!

This process is great for a test. I just recently came across your channel. Great stuff!! I would like to see you do this test again but using the 8+9 proper manufacturer mixing recommendation. I think you'll find it will perform better than it did. As you said in the video, when first applying the 8+9, it was too thick. The thicker the material, the less chance for air bubbles to escape from the porous thinset. To many air bubbles captured in the material provide a path for water to penetrate.

Been using red guard since I was 13 and I’m 27 now. Never had a leak! Just be good at hanging you backer board and making a pan the tighter the joint the less worry

Love these type of content cause I learn from them regardless that I'm not in your trade. Great job.

myself i like to use hard rubber float,it seams to take away the bubbles,or any other mix related issue,but I use whatever ,depending what is available at hand,but I like videos,I watch them all,thank you

I'm a little late to the party to comment but what I've learned from being in aviation when dealing with sealants especially in areas that can't have moisture is not to use a fuzzy roller or cotton to apply a protection seal. The material will come off in the wet applied seal and become embedded when hardend and will eventually exorb enough moisture to compromise the seal. But you did use the roller on both sides so idk.

I would like to add to this video in regards to the Ardex 8+9. I still believe ARDEX is easier to use due to that you don’t have to carry a scale to measure by weight. One more thing is that Ardex recommends using a 3/8 paint roller to apply their 8+9. I still believe that Ardex will outperform any liquid roll on waterproof membrane. Also I saw another text you did of the 8+9 with the seem tape saying that it leaked through their tape, their mesh tape needs to applied with 8+9 underneath it and then have the two coat application over their mesh.

Thanks Isaac for you're helpful videos! I've learned a lot from you as I've been building my diy walk-in shower.

good video. Very informative. Thanks. Really appreciate the guy who makes these.

i love how more and more people in the trades on the internet mention, that it would be easier with the metric system...

I like the fact that both products seem compatible.

Very interesting. Thanks for all this info Isaac! I build about 2 custom bathrooms every year or so. Have been a Laticrete fanboy since going to their Connecticut training in 2017. Love seeing real world scenarios tested. Keep up the good work!

Great work Isaac! God bless.

Hi isaac I’m a German tile layer, the water proofing in Germany is really strickt and it all depends on what the waterproofing is put together with. Maybe you can check out the German DIN 18534 it’s splittet in 6 parts and tells you everything about waterproofing and you’ll probably lern something different

Awesome videos Isaac, following your progress closely. 👍

you should make separate boxes for each product to have more reliable results.

For what it's worth I tested some Redgard and no cracks even on a quarter inch thick blob. And it cured all the way thru. It was a warm dry day in case that matters.

I'd like to see you peel up the sample you made for this video... I think those water spot are not really water spots but material that really didn't mix well so it didn't cure fully. Just a thought.

Awesome individual and thank you for all that you do to make us all perform at our highest level.

Not using metrics is a*s backwards. We use a metric tape all the time for precision work. Great test, thx.

Hi Isaac, I really enjoy your videos, the testing especially. I personally have been in the tile game for 30+ years, 3rd gen master tile mechanic.. my preferred method of waterproofing is redgard , One thing I've noticed so far in all my experience, none of theses systems are actually 100% water proof. They get pretty close.. but none are. If you have time, could you look into epoxy materials for a possible option for waterproofing? My method for showers are : preslope, 40mil pan liner, 1/2 inch durock, 2 inch mud bed, tape and thinset all joints and seams, skim coat all surfaces with modified thinset, and then roll and brush all with redgard 2-3 thin coats.. This system has proven to perform well for me.. but it is time consuming and labor intensive.

Good job, just starting my walk in shower. Will be using Ardex 8 plus 9. Thanks 🇨🇦

Not at all what I expected,thanks for the test,have a great weekend bud.👊🏼

Own a tile store in Pa. I asked my schluter rep about 8+9 and he flipped. Can’t wait to hear his response when I ask him about Kerdi Coll

Amazing video. I got from the video that your a little partial to Ardex 8+9. Probably because it’s “tried and true” but for your purpose, the hydroband cementitious would be better in my opinion Since you still adhere the Kerdi membranes with thinset and not 8+9; 8+9’s quality of being able to dry in the absence of air does not really benefit you. Hydroband cementitious Waterproofing being that it provides less water penetration and coupled with the fact that you only use in a topical application and not to adhere anything, why not just go with the one that provides better protection even if it’s not the one that dries in a vacuum better. Since there is not much use for the specific quality in the way you use it. Or is there a benefit to having that quality of the 8+9 ( complete dry in a vacuum) that I’m not picking up on for the specific method in which you use it. If you have the time, I’d appreciate your thoughts. Thank you for what you do. God Speed.

I now see why you're left with so much liquid with the 8+9. I feel that you need to do this test over and use the correct amount and mixtures to get the right results.

What's nice you can do a full laticrete shower, using your waterproofing method of sheet membrane + cementitious hydroban. If a person cares about having a manufacturer warranty

I am putting a shower on the second floor of my son and daughter-in-law’s house. I am using Kerdi board 5/8 inch sheet with a schluter shower pan with a curb. I am going to use the kerdi band. I was looking at your videos and thinking about coating all the seams with Ardex 8 +9. Now I have ruled that out after seeing this video. I am now leaning towards the hydro ban, but am very hesitant to do that as well. I am now thinking that the best way to waterproof all the seams is going to get a ten gallon tub and mix Ardex 8+9, Hydro Ban, Red Gaurd, Fiberglass strands, Resin, G flex epoxy, and super glue. I think that it is going to be the best way to get a total water proof job. You might think I am joking but I am totally serious. I have looked into the chemical properties of each compound and have calculated the exact amount to mix in based on the International Society of Waterproofing standardization guidelines to allow for equilibrium stabilization to occur. I will apply the mix using a Ryobi paint sprayer in thin coats to reach a maximum thickness of 90 mils. Immediately after I will hit it very lightly with a blow torch to remove any air bubbles. I will be making a video of this process and I will post it at the end of the job.

Yeah, there is water in the air that would react with the hydroban. Your videos are good stuff. I’m no expert, but I do have a chemistry degree if you want further explanation.

Thanks for your effort Issac, very helpful!

Ohh i just had another thought. If one protectant is slightly thicker than the other it would make it easier for the roller/ brush fibers to be pulled from the tool and into the wet seal.

Those cementitious membranes require tape over the seams and change of plane.....Awesome video 👍

It looked like the whole back of the hydroban side is darker, meaning its ALL completely slightly damp, which would make sense as it's cementitious. The ardex has just pin hole water spots, not damp everywhere. Also, the Ardex was made both times with WAY too much 9 and not enough 8, from my experience. I wonder if this compromised it? Anyways, I think you have it down right using it as a secondary waterproofing and not the main. Great video! Love the testing.

Dont switch on us coach!! 8+9 is the shhhhhh

Do you think it would be worthwhile to test 8+9 at several different mixing ratios and see how different mixing ratios perform. Maybe over different type of surface, like large gap, corner and flat, etc.? Perhaps different mixing ratios fair better over different surfaces, or there is a golden ratio that works best on all.

I use 2 coats of redguard over kerdi but use shluter all mortar mix for kerdi band in shower corners and 3 coats of redguard over kerdi on bottom 6" and pan itself. Never had any problems yet. I kind of like the hydroban cementicous just because it has a longer shelf life and it looks like it wirk better then the 8+9. I wouldn't use it's to apply kerdi band though, just over it. Just because I like applying an extra layer of water proofing on shower floors.

So this is just me guessing. But if that first layer of 8+9 was a little more loose, it probably would of soaked in better and released the air bubbles which then would have prevented the pin hole leaks. Am I wrong on that?

thanks for this video. I have a couple of unproven but likely theories for the leaks and cracks. Any form of cement will tend to crack if its too thin or contains too much much water. My theory for why laticrete cracked is too much water. I looked at the data sheet for your proper mix ratio. I guess it was on the bag. My biggest local laticrete distributor doesn't sell this laticrete product. I'm not sure what is the best mix ratio. Seemed like it was too thin. I'd like to see the same test ardex vs regular hydroban (white bucket green lid). Or, try applying a drier version of the cementitious product to a heated and slightly damp surface. I'll bet the bond would have been free of cracks and bubbles. Air bubbles are likely caused by heat. As a membranes are applied, they immediately experience an exothermic curing reaction. In other words, curing liquid membranes give off heat. Thinset on the glass started at room temp. As the membrane cured, got hotter than room temp, and increased the cured thinset temp, any air in the thinset got pushed out and up. This is a common issue with two part glues like epoxy and polyester resins. The secret is to heat up the substrate before applying the next coat. For fiberglass boat repair, we like to warm up the patch area with a heat gun, or do the work as the sun goes down so the hull is cooling when applying epoxy resin. Same with paint and drywall compound. We get much better results when a properly prepared surface is cooling.

Great job coach!

Using schluter sheet membrane and over top of that ardex 8+9, aren't you creating a moisture sandwich given the pin hole test results with the 8+9? Water penetrated through the 8+9 and sat in the bottom of the glass! With that said, will it not do the same in a shower causing a moisture sandwich and eventually that would lead to seperation of 8+9 and kerdi fabric? I'm always sceptical about using topical, or sheet membrane in my jobs and with a ton of research and using all products through the years my go to product for waterproofing is now Wedi. With Wedi I find that it's far less parts and steps to install and common sense tells me that less parts and steps equals to a lesser chance of failure! Just my professional opinion, not knocking your work at all, love your videos and will continue watching!!

Good video, but you should focus on controls more when performing these tests. Mix ardex exactly as instructed and follow the drying times exactly. If you're not following manufacturers recommendations exactly there's potential for skewed results. Good video and appreciate the time put in. Just making some suggestions, not knocking it at all.

Hey I don't need to test and talk to the manufacturer that is what I watch and listen to you for. You are supposed to help make us better as whole there Isaac ostrum. But I do think I watched just about all your videos to see the different products in action.

Hydroban waterproof membrane comes already mixed just like redgard but it requires no fabric in the field or in seams under 1/8th inch. It is used for swimming pools no liners needed. Hard to find a better waterproof membrane than Hydroban. 2 Coats is all you need

Thank you! I've been watching a lot of your videos and I'm halfway through installing a complete Schluter shower using Kerdi board, Schluter ST shower tray, Kerdi membrane/band etc.. I'm paranoid that it might leak! I would like an extra layer of waterproof protection. Do you recommend using the Laticrete Hyrdo Ban over the Schulter membrane and band? I'm installing very expensive marble and if I have to pull it out at a later date because of failure I will be extremely upset. Thanks in advance!

You should try to use fiber glass resin with that fleece, I would bet that it would work great.

I wonder how much the glass substrate is a factor. I’m curious about the performance on separate boxes of plywood, concrete backer board, or other common, in-the-field substrates. My concern is the glass is already impactful factor negating the findings.

Have you tried laticrete 9235? A solid installer I know uses that for all his pans. I appreciate the content.

Great video !

Isaac lookin like red from That 70s Show 😂

i use 254p to stick the membrane and my kerdi the seams over dens sheild, then hydroban tank it, although dens Sheildis is not on the recommended install substrate i like it all my tests never leaked and sticks like crazy. My tile shop is ordering me some cementitious this week.

I wonder if the Hydro Ban is absorbing any water that might want to migrate through it therefore nothing visible on the glass box test. The 8+9 cures hard faster so any water that wants to migrate cannot be absorbed and shows up in the glass box test. Just my thoughts, thanks for the great videos.

Thank you so much I learned a lot from you .

Hi . Looks like you take time to do it right ,I try my best when I do something also . Question . I have seen you remove granite slabs from shower , because of leak . Im planning to put granite slabs on my shower walls . In your experience , what is the best way to attach it to walls ? should I use durock or something else ? Im installing countertops for 15+ years , but no experience in shower area . Thank you .

It's a shame you don't have Kerakoll in the states. Kerakoll is Italian like Mapei but with little more finesse and easier installation in their products. Thei Nanoflex 1K polimer cement membrane is the the best in Europe right now as their Fugalite & Fugabella grout but especially the Biogel adhesive

Excellent and informative video. Thanks again. You beat me too the punch with the last part of the test where you adhered two membranes. I have a question though. Will unmodified thinset not behave the same as Hydroban when used to set banding and corners? I’ve pulled it apart the next day and have also seen that same crumbly texture with unmodified. Since Hydroban is cementitious it likely could use more time to cure between membranes, but then it could possibly behave more like modified and take forever. It would be interesting to see a direct comparison of Kerdi banding and corners set with unmodified and Hydroban.

Why not red-guard over the schleuter seams of unmodified thin-set. The mortar will wick water so cover the mortar at the membrane seams with a liquid membrane

Great video and information!! Thanks!

I wish you were here in So Cal, would hire you guys for my bathrooms.

Excellent. Guess what I'm going to start using.

Did you use Ardex P51 primer before applying 8+9 it's needed when used over sandy substrate like thinset, self leveller etc. Also quite weird if that Laticrete product is really cementitious it should harden due contact of water and even cure under water like cement does

great video!!!

great vid. i really wanna see megalite from custom building products.

So my old man just became a Wedi certified installer and he asked the guy about your videos, unfortunately the teacher told him he hated you and that you just made videos like that on purpose to get people to go to your channel... I explained to him that I really didn’t believe that was the case, I just thought it was unfortunate to hear that a supposed “professional installer” is telling clients that everyone at Wedi hates you and calling you a liar.

It's odd that you got those results with the 8+9. When we first started using 8+9 5-6 years ago we waterproofed a cardboard box with it and it held overnight. Might have to try again.

I use metric system, MAPEI bags always give metric numbers, and the tile, mostly designed outside US, is natively measured in mm. It makes no sense to use imperial system for tile work.

Another good video Isaac. I do have a question though. Kerdi membranes call for using unmodified thin set for laying tile on in. Since you are applying waterproofing over the kerdi membrane, do you have to then use a modified polymer based thinset, which many of the waterproofing compounds recommend??

I REALLy appreciate your videos? Have you done a video flood test with Ardex 8+9 over Kerdi?

I am a tad confused. It seems like you prefered the the cementitious over the 8 +9, but then you talked about the membrane not being cured and waterproofed with use of the cementitious product...

I am not a tiler but a stucco guy. Imo, your application for both products was not good. First, you introduced a lot of air in the mixes with your mixing method. First coat application is way too thick and you had no control over the product with a roller and brush. Way too much way too runny, no wonder why hydro ban cracked. These products should be troweled. You can really make the product lay nicely on the substrate. I think this was not a good demonstration.

First timer here, and I have cement board on my floor in bathroom (installed by previous owner I guess) and want to add a layer of waterproofing down before I lay down tile (since water is why we had to rip everything out in the first place). Do I just lay this down over cement board then lay tile as usual? If no, what should I do? If yes, what is best thinset to use on top of this for tile install? I have half a bag of schulter all set but don't want to use the wrong thing. Thanks!

The 2nd coat of Ardex should be put on perpendicular to the first coat. Maybe this had something to do with results

Could the reason be that a thinner mixture actually penetrates better into the porous cement surface? Yeah, 8+9 is super thick, but if it's that thick, can it actually penetrate the surface, or just sit on top of it? Especially since it's brushed on, it's not really being keyed in under trowel force like thinset would be. It's the same idea too with Redgard and the primer coats, one thin coat to help it fully absorb into the porous surface, then your next coats thicker at full strength.

Like Vandex Super. Love that stuff.

I suspect that flexing or expansion /contraction or movement from deflection could cause these to tear. Have you tested using a waterproof fabric (such as you apply over a previous crack or joint in the substrate) to see how it would reinforce the product?

ardex has a chemical dry whereas the laticrete product has an air dry. seems like laticrete could use a primer or total reformulation in general.

You cant roll the 8+9 without the fabric from pan to wall and all seams...I love the 8+9 and have never had a failure....great for curbless showers...

Have you received any feedback from Schluter on using the Ardex 8 + 9 over their Kerdi? Do they agree with it? Will it void their warranty? I watched one of your videos where you investigated a shower pan failure and was intrigued by the way you recommended using the Ardex over the Kerdi.

In the technical spec sheet it only lists hard, concrete based products as acceptable substrates. It seems to be susceptible to any movement whatsoever. No schluter (foam) was listed. Thoughts?

If you are just top coating the seems wouldn't the air curing not be an issue since it's not between the layers of kerdi? Seems the hydroban was a better result.

Have you ever tested TEC HydraFlex as a waterproofing? It claims to be more flexible than RedGard and designed for crack filling but is also an air dry product

Ever instal Kerdi normally(thinset between layers) but use redguard on top? Don’t think that would stay liquid