A Beaverton man who has spent years working to prove red light cameras are setting drivers up for tickets they can’t avoid is in the midst of a federal court case
Pop Fizzy - yes, it’s sad. But often true. WAKE UP USA! Go to college, so you can fight the state of OREGON. By the way, the name OREGON electrical supplier is: So. Calif Edison Co. !!!! Yeah! Go figure.
however...he did get several warnings telling him what he was doing was illegal and thats when they decided to arrest him. Laws are laws, but yeah i think its ridiculous he couldnt collect his own water on his private property...fucking ridiculous...but he was warned several times keep in mind
Christopher Haist Should he NEED a license to “practice engineering,” whatever the fuck that means? Do you need government approval before you’re allowed to think for yourself, and before you’re allowed to critically look at stuff? He wasn’t designing bridges or skyscrapers, he was saying stuff about a traffic light.
@@chaist94 There are only a few types (really just one) of engineers that need to have their PE, primarly it is civil engineers who do road, bridge, or building work. You don't have to have a PE stamp to be an engineer for like 90% of the work out there.
@@chaist94 i've been an engineer for a long time now. I'm not "licensed", i have completed and under graduate and a masters in engineering and worked professionally for 20 years. I took the FE exam, but to do the work I do doesn't require a PE. I understand that those working on public works needs a PE for the final drawings approval, but usually you only have a couple of PEs that sign off, much of the work is done by non PEs. I currently work in a company with probably 200 engineers and not one of those is licensed.
@@spartand001 I seriously doubt that, antifa isn't a uniquely american thing - it's in europe too. Most of them focus on Nazis, fascists, oppression and the like. I doubt an american antifa would ever harass a normal Scandinavian tourist, pretending that they're a fascist. You need to keep in mind, that europe, Japan and the like (you know, the tourists often coming to the US), are more politically balanced than the US (and a hell of a lot less corrupt). I highly doubt most antifa members would go after them.
Oregon has a state law that says only state-licensed engineers can speak publicly about technical matters. Jarlstrom was fined $500 for “unlicensed practice of engineering.” He then filed a federal lawsuit alleging violations of his First Amendment rights. In December 2017,he won his case.The state issued him a check for the $500 he was fined.
Wow, someone here actually knows the facts and isn't spewing their own ignorance? People around these parts don't take to kindly to folks like you with your facts.
@Lonao it's along the lines of calling yourself a lawyer or doctor without a license. I might be bias since I learned about this when I was taking intro engineering classes but it makes sense to me. In this case I think they went at him unfairly but the law has a purpose. If this guy is claiming to be an engineer, that term has l implications that businesses rely on. Even if you study law, unless you pass the bar then telling people your an attorney would be fraud.
@Lonao I think you have a good point about differences in University systems. I don't think we have a very big problem with low quality engineering degrees but since we have so many schools it's harder to make sure they're all up to standard without testing the schools results by testing their students. I think it's good they have a certification process but I think they go to far with trying to own the term. I think the problem is that engineer already has a colloquial meaning. I could understand if they only banned "professional engineer" since that clearly implies something different. Your English is very good BTW, IDK how long you've known it but I couldn't even tell it was a second language.
Licensing is used to help guarantee that there is actual skill rather than any random quack. It's also good to help keep the dentist's skills up to date so that they are known for keeping up. But, the problem is that it's still an organization run by people... and people with agendas can take advantage of that. Therefore a law must be passed to prevent the abuse and misuse of the licensing process because of selfish and frivolous political and economic selfish agendas, thus requires the need to past a law to prevent the licensing people from using the negative side of the licensing law process because all lawyers knows that the law has two sides, a positive side and a negative side. And people with evil agendas will always take advantage of the negative side of the law because of their greed, selfishness, avariciousness, TO ILLEGALLY FORM MONOPOLIES, CARTELS, OLIGOPOLIES (PRICE-FIXING WHICH IS ILLEGAL BY LAW), OVER-PRICING. GOUGING THE PUBLIC AT IT'S ECONOMIC FINANCIAL EXPENSE CAUSING ECONOMIC HARDSHIPS, ETC.
A Professional Engineers (licensed engineers) is a needed tool in our states tool box. Not every engineer needs or wants to be licensed. I agree the State of Oregon is out of control with its monopolies and union run gangs that chose who they allow to work. But none of this eliminates the need for a state to recognize and authorize engineers by licensing them. This gives Industry a recognizable standard of education has been met. I’m not 100% sure but they might also have to be bonded before the license is issued too, again I’m not sure. I’ve never wanted to be licensed and never seen the need.
@@wainbanfield6775 No, Portland, Salem, and Eugene are Democrat. The rest of the state is not. It's a similar problem to California, who we mindlessly copy in everything.
That's something different, though. Only the name is similar so it creates confusion. An actual professional engineer is one of the "big three" white-collar professions and is akin to being a doctor or a lawyer with its own licensing standards (just like the bar exam). All 50 states generally go along with these self-policed standards so they can then collect licensing fees, but reciprocity between states is practically a rubber stamp because of the common procedure. It's only other professional engineers, NOT any state, who determine who makes the cut (via the FE and PE examinations and a four-year apprenticeship under three professional engineer mentors who must sign recommendations). And it's even other engineers who make up all the state boards of licensure. I can't speak for every state, but every single one I know of is manned with only professional engineers in the decision-making or policy-makingroles.
@@wtk6069 Agree. The same way you can be an accountant doing bookkeeping at a company, but you need a license to be a certified accountant that can sign audit opinions, etc.
Besides having a Constitutional right to critique the government, his (Järlström's) logic is plainly correct. The Board's position seems to be indefensible both logically and legally.
Certainly. Anyone who has an MD degree can refer to themselves as 'Doctor'. That doesn't mean they can practice medicine in any particular state. And he wasn't practicing engineering in Oregon, just commenting on a poorly designed red light camera system.
anyone who gets a Ph.D is fully entitled to call themselves doctor, they are not allowed to practice medicine without the license big difference, also the state can't stop you from claiming to be a lawyer, that is not illegal, practicing law without the license is, what he did is not engineering in any sense other than using applied logic, most forms of engineering do not impact the public and therefore don't need to be regulated by the state
yes but the proper title is doctor, just like the proper title for a masters of divinity is father, regardless if they are a priest or if they have taking vows
point of clarification: The 6th A right is " to be confronted with the witnesses against him" Confronting your accuser is an urban legend. Unfortunately this right does not apply to infractions, fines by government agencies and for lessor misdemeanors in many jurisdictions.
Ok, moron, the camera is not your accuser it is an evidence collection device, the state's attorney after reviewing the evidence the States Attorney accuses you not the camera, also if you cross the safe stop line after the light turns red you ran the red light.
Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World is far superior to the work of Mr. Orwell. Wilbur from Charlotte’s Web wouldn’t waste his time on the “ham” that makes Animal Farm so very smelly.
Me: "I have to plow my field..." Government: "Have a license for that?" U.S. Supreme Court: "Licenses and Permits for anything, is Unconstitutional... Just like unvoted for laws or prohibitions/bans."
most of them are either licensed lawyers or real estate brokers/investors who make extra money from the laws and regulations they inflict on the populace
You'll need a license to make a pile of muck if you put it against a wall. They'll claim you made an embankment if it's over 3ft High or 2/3 the height of the supported structure.
All Civil engineers must be licensed by the state that they are doing work in. All 50 states and U.S. territories have a board of technical registration that regulates civil engineers, architects, geologists, surveyors, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, naval engineers, nuclear engineers, structural engineers, hydraulic engineers, traffic/transportation engineers. In order to submit plans for public or private clients you must be a licensed engineer. You will never be able to be in responsible charge of any project and you will only be able to work under the direct supervision of a licensed professional engineer. To become licensed here are the 4 steps: 1) 4 year degree transcripts. 2) upon graduation, take & pass the rigorous 8 hour closed book FE/EIT exam that covers all of the engineering sciences. (mathematics, chemistry, physics, probability and statistics, thermodynamics, statics, dynamics, hydraulics, strength of materials, optics, magnetism, surveying, electrical circuits, engineering economy,...etc). 3) you must have 4 years of verifiable experience after passing the FE/EIT exam before you are allowed to take the professional exam. 4) take and pass the rigorous 8 hour P.E. exam. Then you can legally call yourself an engineer. So I find it odd that a civil engineer is trying to stay away from a state that has a state board because all states and even Europe, Canada, Australia, India and Japan have similar boards. Best regards, Temo Gracia, P.E.
@@temogracia3182 If you spent your adulthood working as a doctor, then you are a doctor even if you don't have a state license. However in this guy's case I don't think anyone gets the real point. I think they were trying to discredit him. He did win in the end.
@@temogracia3182 by the way, the comment doesn't state that he wants to be an engineer in Oregon. , he no doubt knows about licensing. If he goes there on holiday, and someone asks him what he does for a living, what should he say? I think that is what he may be getting at.
The reason the majority of engineers don't have professional licenses is because the professional license exam is redundant after a bachelors in engineering. So why would we waste our time and money getting a certification that doesn't truly mean anything? The only reason engineers ever bother to get licensed is if there's a law specifically requiring them to. Also it sucks because the licenses are usually per-state, so they don't carry from Oregon to Washington.
Name a branch of Engineering that covers ALL topics on the PE Exam. There is none, so it is not redundant after bachelor's degree, as any degree covers at most forty percent of the topics on the exam.
This is a case where the colloquial term of 'Engineer' can mean many things to the general public. Usually the 'Professional Engineer' title is used for State regulatory reasons only. Every state has slightly different requirements. Most require you to work in Engineering under another Professional Engineer before you can take the regulatory test. Similar to Certified Public Accountants, Lawyers, or Medical Doctors. Achieving a level of study, a BS, MS, PhD, or DrE in Engineering does not make you a 'Professional Engineer' Engineers should always point out that they are not 'Professional' Engineers when asked to make a statement professionally. If you comment on some technical aspect as an Engineer and the person needs that information for safety and regulation compliance, they should always get the information in writing and marked with the state-approved Professional Engineers seal (Like a notary seal). This is a case where the colloquial term of 'Engineer' can mean many things to the general public.
We have Systems Designers. They design the stuff an engineer works on. An engineer is typically a mechanic. Sounds like lefty Oregon knows it has a problem and is fighting back the old fashion way, with obfuscation, deflection and obscuration techniques so common to Law.
But not a licensed professional engineer. You can be an engineer providing any work that you do and that is considered to be professional engineering is checked and signed off by a PE.
As an engineer without a Professional Engineering license, most engineering work doesn't require a license. It's usually only finalizing a formal engineering plan or the like that needs it. As an American, this is a blatantly unconstitutional violation of the Freedom of Speech.
@@jnichols3 it's far from a great movie, but to be fair it has a lot of great moments. While watching it once in an... emotionally fragile state (I have mental health issues), the scene after the warp reactor gets fixed by Kirk, and Spock's entire reaction, did bring me to tears. Kirk and Spock may be one of the greatest platonic love stories ever told. It's just a bit of a shambles in its assembly... and sometimes also execution. It's still a bunch of mostly talented actors (not a fan of Alice Eve though) mostly doing their best with an unpolished script, that just couldn't quite mesh its bunch of neat concepts together cohesively. Another plus side, it really does look great in 3D!
The title "engineer" isn't a bought title, it's an earned title. Since when do you have to have a license for a title earned by education and experience?
@D. W. You're a doctor and a lawyer right after you graduate. Trucker isn't really a title, it's a job and if that "trucker" does something other than driving a truck they won't be a trucker any more whereas a doctor and a lawyer will continue to have that earned title even after they retire. They might have to have a license to practice (which basically says you've met the current minimal requirements to that date) but that doesn't take their title away when they don't renew the license.
@D. W. He has a degree in electrical engineering, which is also his job. The government were saying he cannot call himself as such as he doesn't have a specific low tier licence. He won the case.
@D. W. Wow, you must be a trucker. Your assessment on my attitude toward truckers is way off, that said, I stand by what I said. You can either agree or disagree that is your choice. It's my opinion and only that. Your's obviously is different and I'm okay with that.
I personally know a few licensed engineers that I think there greatest accomplishment was just becoming an engineer..leave it to the deep pockets of government to retaliate when there revenue game is threatened.
My father was a state-certified Professional Engineer and was justifiably proud of that. I resent your remark. When he needed a wheelchair ramp, he started figuring out IN HIS HEAD what the maximum slope could be that would allow him to power himself up said ramp. You figure out what all that entails.
I think Politicians ought to be licensed!! ..Full testing, ethics, duties, etc..and swear an oath under penalty of prison time for "breeching" the oath!!!
Im a 40 yr industrial machine repairman. 75% of "engineers" were given that title from their employer. And the 25% with actual degrees have no training and experience in the field they are working in. I train them. So they can lock the operator manuals up and be the plant "expert"
Proper response from Oregon; wow, thanks for notifying us of this terrible error that our own “licensed engineers” missed Their decision to go after him only makes it obvious they knew all along.
You can practice engineering all day long, you just can’t sell or implement , construct , manufacture, etc. most state dot engineers are not licensed because it’s not required by law , provided that a P.E (meaning licensed in the state as Professional Engineer in their field of expertise, civil,structural,electrical and so on. The liabilities and cost of insurance is the biggest factors that most graduates of engineering ( so I don’t get fined) don’t get a stamp or P.E. I know this fist hand in Wa. St Dot or WADOT covers very small pay increase and minimal of expenses . Along with the feds don’t up date the design books that most of the engineering are cut and paste anyway. Don’t worry it still has to be engineered for specific conditions and I’m sure there’s a few licensed pocket protectors in Olympia that do fine review work . I wonder how many lawyers on staff are licensed ?
most traffic intersection cameras generate 12 million dollars (or more) per year per intersection. you see why governments go to great lengths to keep them.
"Most engineers don't need them" Translation: "Most states actually look at your university degree and body of work when deciding if you are an engineer but here in Oregon we make you take a state test so only those who agree with the decisions of the government can call themselves experts."
No, You need to be a state licensed Engineer in every state to sign off on construction and design documents for Bridges, Buildings, Power lines, ETC. But most Engineers don't need to be State Certified/licensed, because there work doesn't require it, for example if you work on Electronics, satelites, rockets, any NASA contracts, State Certification is not required. The problem is some states don't consider you an Engineer if you don't have state Certification, regardless of what work you do.
Maybe we should make the bureaucrats prove that they are qualified to fill their positions in government. Especially the elected officials, who are often the least qualified in the particular areas that they want to assume to control or regulate. I mean, who checks their qualifications?
@@azkor91 You're missing my point. I don't have a problem with states requiring certain credentials in order to have you work on state projects, including having a state license to work as an engineer for the state. My problem is when any government oversteps its bounds and starts to become dictatorial. Oregon does not have a monopoly on the use of the word engineer, but they have a law on the books that allows them to fine people for describing themselves as such. So who is allowed to call themselves an engineer, why only those approved by we the state of course. And because we the state control who gets to call themselves an engineer and is therefore considered to be an expert, we no longer have to worry about experts disagreeing with us, because hey if they do, you can just pull their license and BAM they're no longer an engineer. It's not an issue about expertise, or qualifications, or experience, or safety. It's about control. I somehow doubt that of all the many engineers who have worked on this camera system throughout the years, none of them noticed this issue before. But did the government want this defect in the system fixed, a defect that was probably bringing in millions of dollars a year for them. Of course not. But how do you prevent people from finding out about this problem? Put a monopoly on the ability to call yourself an expert and then only give out that title to people who agree that the defect is not a problem and use fear of fines or loosing your ability to work to silence those who disagree.
@@dougoverhoff7568 well, if you think elected officials are the least qualified, maybe we should consider a dictatorship? At least dictators have more say in making an informed who they should delegate matters to rather than the ignorant masses.
@@alexanderchristopher6237 Ya, OK. You go ahead and move to one of those countries with a dictator in charge. Let me know how that works out for you. Meanwhile, the people in this Country who do the voting, what we call the electorate, should do their civic duty and inform themselves on who it is that they are actually voting into office, into those positions of power and authority over theirs and everyone else's lives. How's that sound?
@@pierrenavaille4748 Guess that makes me one of the 80% that are unlicensed. If it is anything like being a state licensed mechanic, it isn't a high bar to reach, simply a money making scam by the government.
I was once caught by a red-light camera in a protected & marked right-turn lane, and with no other traffic at the intersection. The light changed and I earned a ticket for being **0.4 seconds** in error! Yep, 0.4 seconds! Fortunately, the money-grab cameras are no longer permitted in that area. It has little to do with safety, only money.
Same here. I was probably in error for that much too......at around 3 am. No kidding, there was NO one in the rear view mirror (no headlights), and no one visibly in front of me......approximately 300-400 yards. But, yeah, safety and all that.
Imagine you save a guy from choking, and the government fines you for practicing medicine without a license. Imagine you pull a baby from a fire and you get fined because you are not a firefighter. Imagine reporting drug dealers but you get fines because you are not trained as a detective.
Observation and speaking about what you saw is not 'practicing' anything. In that case when I tell someone how they performed my procedure in the hospital I just practiced medicine based on observing and telling someone what I saw!
This is why you do what the UK(and most of the EU because we standardised this shit) does. Have a term called "chartered engineer" it's a person endorsed by a group with a royal charter to do engineering. Anybody else can call them self an engineer if they want, it's an unprotected term because it literally means "design and builds" as a verb and anybody who designs and builds things is thus entitled to call themself an engineer "Doctor" is an example of a protected term as doctor literally means "PERSON WHO IS QUALIFIED to treat people who are ill" or "a person who holds the highest university degree." It's a word directly tied to a qualification, unlike engineer which is not tied to a specific level of qualification. This is like requiring somebody to have a license to call themselves a "farmer" You can seek accreditation from the engineering council if you want to(In which case you pay a nominal tax dedicatble membership fee, and they go thru your qualifications and give you an charter or incorporated engineer status you also have to do a write up every year how you improved or something) The only time it's really actually needed is if you want to go into civil because of regulations. As usual the US is backwards.
Wrong. It is negotiable though. Treasonous speech, for example, would make you go to jail in the United States of America. That's not covered under the First Amendment. Personally, I believe that every action should have its consequences, including speech. Good speech should have you rewarded, while evil speech should land you in trouble. Speaking and spreading lies, promoting disunity and conflict amongst members of society, hateful speech against individuals or groups, slander, unlawful uses of private ownerships of intellectual properties, etc. shouldn't be rewarded or even tolerated. All of this at just going to keep feeding the perpetual cycle of hate, ignorance, misunderstandings, inequality, and violence. Laws to restrain the evil behaviors listed above would only beneficial to the peace and order of society. And if you think that's a dystopia, well, a dystopia is only a dystopia to those who don't get along with the program. An AA meeting would be hell for an alcoholic who wished not to be rehabilitated. A person who loves cleanliness would not enjoy a public bathroom. A demon would find heaven intolerable as much as a saint finds hell intolerable. A bigot, for example, would not enjoy a place where everyone is treated equal regardless of physical differences and should take his/her bigotry elsewhere, not insisting upon their right to be a jerk. That's called entitlement.
@@alexanderchristopher6237 Clearly treasonous speech almost never makes you go to jail in the USA, because first amendment. "Hate speech" laws fail when challenged in court, because first amendment. Of course it is not absolute, but it's not really negotiable either, there are very few exceptions and the example of this case clearly doesn't rise to the level worthy of an exclusion of free speech.
There's a term, "professional engineer", that requires licensing. This issue came up back when Microsoft started calling people who passed their certifications "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer". As long as you are not selling yourself as a "professional engineer", there should not be a problem resolving the issue. Engineering is a verb, making someone who engages in the act of engineering and engineer. Professional standards are there for our safety. You don't want somebody waking up one morning, deciding to call themselves a professional engineer, and working on the design of a bridge, or a building. As with most things, context is essential.
To be an Engineer, you have to PAY a yearly "membership" due. It's like being a "Realtor" you can be a licensed Real Estate Broker or agent, but you can't call yourself a "Realtor" if you don't pay QUARTERLY membership dues. In America, trade title is a lucrative business and high expense.
In most jurisdictions there are specific exemptions for locomotive engineers and military engineers, so that they can use the term 'engineer' without being licensed by state boards. Many jurisdictions have changed the rules so that you can't call yourself a 'Professional/Licensed Engineer' without being licensed by the state board.
This is correct and applies in other states and all Canadian provinces. Professional Engineering is a protected profession. It is exists to protect the public and not the Engineers themselves, except as a secondary benefit because Professional Engineers have gone through a long process of academic and practical training, have engineering degrees, and have passed examinations in engineering ethics as well as those relating to their particular discipline. As a Professional Electrical Engineer I wouldn't be allowed to design a bridge, for instance. The state doesn't "own" the word "engineer" any more than it owns "doctor", " bus driver", police officer", or any other profession that requires suitable qualifications for that activity. Therefore the state regulates such activities for the public good, partly by prosecuting fraudulent representation by someone purporting to be qualified. I think most Professional Engineer prosecutions are instigated by the state engineering licensing authorities. This includes prosecutions against licenced engineers for incompetence, malpractice and even bringing the profession into disrepute. The Professional Engineer board is financed by engineers paying annual license fees, this being above and beyond compulsory third party insurance. Just like medical doctors. The licensing authority is not a trades union. It doesn't bargain or negotiate employment contracts. It actively encourages young people to enter the profession. It also ensures that anyone coming to the state from another country to practice engineering is properly qualified and registered. Afterthought: Althoug many engineers are not licenced they can be involved in professional practice as long as they are under the supervision of a licensed engineer or checked by one. All their design documents, drawings, and designs would have to be checked and signed by a Professional Engineer, who stamps paper documents with a stamp with his/her name and licence number on it. The PE then takes full legal responsibility for the design.
"State employees". Thats all I needed to hear. I can't tell you how many times I have PROVEN so called "Engineers" working for the City or the State absolutely wrong mathematically or literally by written Building Code. Yet, because they are the duly authorized authority, they win. I've even had some agree I am anbsolutely correct, but their way is the way it WILL be done ... even if incorrect, inadequate, completely and absolutely absurd or outright corrupt. So, we continue to go along to get along and the public wonders why Government can't perform Jack Schitt as compared to private industry.
Where are their journalism licenses? Do they also carry news anchor licenses? I'm shocked how few are actually licensed. There's your example of how ridiculous it is.
I litterly FIX most engineers design mistakes for a living. Engineers are the most clueless brow beating know it all babies you will meet in professional work environments.
@ In my work experience, that qualifies you to be an engineer since none I've worked with could spell and apparently didn't know how to use a spell checker.
The term “Professional Engineer” is a protected term in most if not all states. There are state-officiated exam(s) to take and other requirements to fulfill before being licensed as a professional engineer in that state, much like a medical license. Some states extend the protection to “engineer” as well. In order for a building permit to be approved, a licensed professional engineer must use their official stamp to certify that the design meets regulations and is ethical. This practice ensures accountability in the interest of preventing accidents/disasters.
There are many "uncertified" engineers in a place like Intel. To punish a specific person just for criticizing a state policy is strictly infringing on their 1st amendment rights. The state might require certification on whom they hire for their various projects. However, they do not have exclusive rights to the word "engineer", math, logic, and established practices for signal lights. There has often been corruption found in companies setting up intersection camera system while sharing in a percentage of citation fees. This is a clear conflict of interest and must not be tolerated.
Soon Oregon will realize they only receive 20% of all camera tickets fines. The company that owns the cameras gets 80% of the fines. Arizona removed them.
I love the battle over the use of the term "Engineer". By profession I am a computer systems engineer, and I've always worked for the engineering departments. How ever because I did not get a piece of cut pipe on my finger and study for 15 years in school, I cannot call myself an Engineer. This is bull shit, I have been in this industry for over 20 years and I deserve that title.
I was an engineer, without a degree until my company opened an office in Oregon. They gave me a nice raise to go with a new job title, but nobody knows what a technical professional is. They stop caring when you solve their problems. Now engineers work for me.
