if its like a really cool song they are playing my church will sometimes do like some cool light and maybe even fire effects with like huge drum solos. that is really only on special days tho
It's like that at mine too. I'm a Catholic, but during communion we do violin solos and massive drum fills it's amazing, it helps a lot with worship I think
To be fair, there were historically huge debates about how complicated music should be in church. Some churches weren't so hot about the idea of complex polyphony because you couldn't understand the text.
Right, and he was a guy who frequently improvised during services and would write original music for an entire service only to play something completely different the next week. Dude was truly the Buckethead of his time.
@@FacePomagranate True, even the notion of having more than four modes (which could *not* be transposed to different root notes), or of having improvisation or variation to begin with, so many things were once debated heavily... we've come a long way.
My grandma, who would be 101 years (now in 2022), hated the beatles. The music, the attitude, their hairs, the fact that my mom loved them. Well, everything. Then one day, she went to see a presentation of the orchestra I was playing in, and she cried when we played Yesterday. She said it was the most beautiful song she had listened.
painfully, that often seems the case. I am in a lifer in the Worship Industrial Complex as well as Secular Music. I now get to participate in an Evening Jazz Worship service where we get to play straight ahead jazz/fusion/gospel/hymns with my band and really get to MUSICK! It's glorious and sadly rare outside of the Gospel community. I have throughout my career in the church had to engage in what I have always called "sneaking as much music into the music as I can". Adam Neely, thank you for the non derisive towards Christianity itself manner in which you have addressed this topic. It's like you're speaking my brain. Thanks for what you contribute to music and musicking!
Is nobody gonna mention how cute it is that Mozart was so happy when people whooped and cheered his pieces that he went and bought himself an ice cream after the show?
Many Christians like myself hate it too, and not just because of the blandness, but the lyrics. Especially with Hillsong and Bethel, it's almost always milquetoast, meaningless, uninspired, formulaic, inoffensive, man-centered, hyper-emotional, excessively repetitive, and theologically incorrect. Like the joke how all of them have to rhyme "fire" and "desire". But Adam is exactly right about joy and creativity. We worship the God who created creativity and joy, so why on earth does the music have to be so repetitive, bland, and reserved? How many times is it repeated in the Psalms to MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE? Even if music is depressing or even horrifying, like "I Am" by P.O.D, that fits with all the times David wrote worship psalms while in the depths of his spiraling depression, crying out that he feels physically weak and drowning in despair. There is no limits here to what can be done, but CCM just doesn't understand that.
I feel like when it comes to Christian music, Thousand Foot Krutch and P.O.D do an amazing job, its that exact concept that you're talking about. Even as a non religious person, their lyrics are so powerful and can be felt even if you aren't part of the faith, it isn't overbearing or pretentious or virtue signaling but personal, heartfelt, and passionate; exactly what Christian music should be going for in my irrelevant, non religious opinion.
Every once in a while, CCM artists worship together with hymns. I think they recognize the need to get back to the heart of worship, so to speak. A couple years ago there was the Worship Circle project. Kim Walker Smith from Jesus Culture led "Jesus Paid It All": ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-WXOYgN3jI14.html
That's exactly how i feel and I've been playing worship music for 12 years... I just don't let them "leaders" castrate my feeling, expression and joy of actually being there and playing/worshipping...
I just wanted to take a moment to remember all those faithful tortured and slaughtered, for their faith in Christ. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lgX0tghvz4A.html This is your time. (She Said Yes.)
As someone who spent years involved with my church's worship team, I couldn't agree more with this. There was always this pressure and discouragement to not be musical, rather to just play the bare-bones song structures, because "it's not about you." While I still practice my faith, that kind of mentality about worship (among other problems in the church) honestly made me step down from it. I absolutely love music, and being told to not give my all into something that I love, in favor of staying in the congregation's musical "comfort zone," in my opinion, doesn't make me want to "lift a joyful noise." I believe Lincoln Brewster (famous worship leader) said it best when he said: "if I'm not giving my all musically, and I'm not using all of my gifts and talents to glorify God, then I'm not being obedient to what He's called me to do."
I agree with you. And there are so many christian creative who want to worship Him with their all and explore their creativity . There's Montell Fish for example. Can't think of another tone but He's a perfect example
yeah lmao my church refuses to let me play the drumset and forced me to use a perc box which i didnt enjoy playing and ultimately i chose to quit cause of it. its not a common thing im aware but its an annoyance regardless
Ortizsensei a lot of beliefs of how music “should sound” in the church stems from the older generation. Wanting to have dynamic music for worship isn’t wrong and God is far more creative than what many churches have attributed to Him.
Thank you for this thoughtful and sincere take. One word I would add is "risk." There is no risk in the musicking of CCM worship anymore. The proliferation of high quality technology, worship videos, live streaming and multi-tracks (purchasing and playing the literal stems of the original recording to fill out a local church's band) has led to a very emulative approach that isn't even first about worship. It's about "excellence" - meeting the high expectations of people coming to a church service that the church wants to become members/contributors. There are no risks taken to play something inspired or unique because that doesn't serve the consumeristic desires of many churchgoers.
@@HelenGPitts Today I finally received my first over fiver-row bs on RU-vid ever!!! I've been using RU-vid on the web for ten years and I've never cringed so hard... I'm paid nothing, and the most important thing about this experience is that I've learned that even adblock doesn't help, it just reguires two basic brain cells to tell the difference between bs and truth... the best thing is that I luckily still have time to reply to bs with bs. I am able to have quality time with responding to bs and hoax and take care of cringeworthy messages that have nothing to do with the above comment. Don't ignore my reply and be sure to leave this comment section quick. Let me show what the power of almighty QWERTY-keyboard can do.... www.reddit.com
Hey, great to see you here! I recommended some of your videos to some piano students who wanted to learn the basics of music theory. I feel like a lot of it comes down to the fact that some singers such as Don Moen noticed that Christian music was starting to get its own version of "music idols," in a way, and they felt that at worst it was getting too close to actual idolatry, and at best the focus was more on the musician than on God, which is OK for a concert but maybe not for church. So their solution was to try to "get out of the way" entirely in hopes that the people would worship God directly. As a Christian pianist and occasional church musician, I personally found this video very enlightening--to hear the perspective that for some people, more interesting and full-featured music ("showy" music, if you like) would enhance their worship experience rather than redirecting it.
Is the "yehhh god" thing referring to the Family Guy cutaway of LaToya Jackson saying "rubba dub dub, thanks for the grub, yay God"? 😭 Based upon the fact that's what I got from this comment I must be really tired lol.
...plus, by his own comments, a topic that can so quickly get "complicated". While this video is not unlike conversations I have had with other musicians I play with at church, this kind of thoughtful analysis and dialogue is not likely to be something you hear from the pastor to a congregation. Sadly, the wide age and taste range present in a congregation might well mean that teaching (like this video) from the pulpit and feedback from the pew is the one thing that could bring CCM into a better musicked, more joyful noise.
@@kierenmoore3236 Religion, in and of itself, cannot bash a thing. It's individual people, and people as a collective, that tend to do this. A religious organization can suffer from the hands of any number of leaders or members - the same as any other organization. If you have an issue with religion, know that it's not that religion is "bashing itself". Instead, it's something people are saying, not saying, doing, or not doing while associated with that religion.
Dude, I’m a worship leader who is also studying music in college. This video is seriously awesome. I’ll always advocate for less simplified worship music, if we believe God has given us these great gifts we should use them!
@@SeraphsWitness And that's the whole point. I think when the purpose of something is unknown, abuse is inevitable. I guess mystic music would be even more boring for some, though it's great!!!
@@matthewgarcia7376 Worship isn’t about emotion, though. An emotional response is warranted and natural, but we don’t do worship to feel the “emotions you need.” We worship for the sake of worshiping God.
yea you must be fun at parties! I mean seriously, whenever I here of someone emphasizing strategically and wisely, I'm like *FacePalm* Christian vibes using Pro- verbs and Psalm Palms to bitch slap ya....typical religious garb@@SeraphsWitness
"Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with lute and harp! Praise Him with tambourine and dance; Praise Him with strings and pipe! Praise Him with sounding cymbals; Praise Him with loud crashing cymbals! Let everything that has breath praise the Lord! Praise the Lord!" Psalm 150:3-6 So basically, praise Him with a jazz band.
Dude everything this guy has said in this video so far is so stupid and inaccurate. Nobody for the most part in the worship music world advocates for intentionally not playing well and making the music boring so you don’t distract from God or the lyrics and don’t bring praise to yourself. That’s like the cheesiest dumb as crap I’ve ever heard. Yes some people say that but worship music is a style and it is incredible. It’s probably my favorite style of music to listen to and play. Worship artist like an elevation worship have the best musical taste of vans that I know of. this guy doesn’t even understand the difference between contemporary Christian music and worship. They aren’t even close to the same thing or the same style. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about with anything. He just claimed worship music has the same four chords. Worship music is probably the only style of music I’ve ever played it doesn’t have the same four chords! It blows my mind. You guys should try learning these styles and learning to play it and actually sound good. If you can’t sound like the artist you aren’t good musicians and you can’t play the style well. I know trendy far left progressive who are incredibly pretentious you think music like Elevation Worship album only king forever is the best style of music they’ve ever heard and that’s their favorite to play and incorporate in their writing. Even though he literally just said the genre has nice cord progressions even though it again and he says the same for. This guy is just repeating clichés about music. He hasn’t come to a real conclusion. And he’s comparing it to jazz fusion. They aren’t even similar in style but I act like once objectively better written music for what is trying to accomplish is stupid. There’s plenty of bands that are incredibly complicated with plenty of key changes in time signature changes that play worship music.
I liked it, but one of the things that made the original great was the build up to that melody. That melody doesn't kick in in until close to 4 minutes into the song normally so I kind of feel like jumping right into it sort of cheapens it.
Man, as a worship pastor I actually appreciated this approach a lot. I don’t totally agree with a lot of what Don Moen said either. Outside of worship music I listen to stuff like Allen Stone, Vulfpeck, Muse, John Mayer, and much more, so I understand the oversimplification of the worship style, and I think you’re right in the reasoning behind it. Sometimes I wish we could see a lot more musical variety and skill put into what we do on Sunday mornings. (I usually turn to Gospel or Planet Shakers (that bass!) when I want something a bit more musically rich) I love playing worship music and all that it entails, but I really appreciate this video and your take on it. It was interesting to see you break it down from an outside perspective.
You can look at traditional mass music, you will see true craftmanship of music like gregorian chants or music specialy made for mass - like "mass in B minor" by Bach.
Adam I love that you made this video *and* also literally performed one of the songs in question with your giant band as an experiment. that is so dope
That was my favorite song when I was 10 (I didn’t get out much) and at exactly 4:37 when I heard him start playing, I instantly felt transported back to my 5th grade classroom learning the song and singing along with a recording with my whole class.
I remembering hearing a worship leader explain that when writing, his target audience was “women in their late 20s who don’t like music”. That cleared a lot up.
I mean. I do get that. I get the notion of writing songs for a vast array of people. I thought this video was a bit ridiculous (I mean...he used a Don Moen video...like...why?). I don't love Worship or CCM music. I also pastor a church. The vast array of people in the church requires the easiest method to help all people enter into that worship space. Which translates to easy music (because John the Worship band Bass player learned how to play bass 2 weeks ago) and lyrics that all people can understand and attach themselves to you. Hymns are the same way. It's not necessarily about the musician's ability to play well as it is about ushering in a time and attitude of authentic worship.
@@esava44 I agree with the notion of making worship approachable, but as a church musician myself, I feel like there is never any musical growth. Any of us would assume attending church would help propagate spiritual growth. In fact, its expected. Yet, musical growth has been discouraged in church for the past 20 years. If you're attending a church weekly, singing for a half hour, if things go naturally you're going to grow as a musician without much effort. I still believe I will give my best to the Lord in music.
Wow, that is both an atrocity and the greatest tragedy I've ever heard. Lord have mercy on His church. We need some songs that are inspired by God and by the sound of heaven! None of this "catering to the congregation" crap. If your congregation can't enter into worship because of "this" or "that" then the pastor / leadership hasn't done a very good job establishing the right attitude and culture in the church. And I say that as both a youth pastor and a musician. We need a worship revolution in our churches!!
As someone who also self-identifies as a Christian, but who also finds a lot of CCM eye-rolling, I really appreciated the thoughtfulness of this. There is absolutely a huge difference that the musicking makes - at times, it's the difference of it feeling incredibly profound and moving in person, to "how quickly can I find the skip button" when hearing it on the radio. Having CCM on "in the background" almost can feel *wrong*, like having the nation anthem or "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" on in the background - those are musical experiences that feel disembodied when detached from their intended "musicking" context.
The "no fun while playing allowed" thing is weird - it _should_ be "don't get a big head" but ofc you can enjoy yourself while playing and worshiping. You shouldn't hold back for the sake of holding back - hold back _when_ you notice you're feeding into your pride, when you notice you're doing it so other people hear and like you more, stuff like that. We Christians can become too extreme and miss the original point sometimes. It happens a lot.
As someone raised Catholic (and has witnessed other Christian ways), those restrictions are what made going to churches feel like a chore to me. Shouldn't one be allowed to feel alive whilst inside?
TBH this was the meaning I took from the Don Moen video (which I'd seen before Adam's video). His point was that the musicians should be playing appropriate parts, listening to each other, and not showing off at the expense of the song. Pretty much everything Adam says in his video is valid, but I think he misunderstood Don Moen.
That's the way my church band has always been. I get pretty into it when I play with them, but I've never been discouraged from doing it. Maybe people think it's irreverent.
I personally haven’t experienced the whole “don’t overplay” with contemporary Christian music. I know it’s out there, but at my church, the band loves what they play and they have fun. The congregation participates and claps and dances. I do believe that during this everyone’s mind is still on God though, I think they are actively worshipping through this. I personally find it strange that people out there believe worship should be non-expressive.
My church does the same. I think this might touch on the context of the "musicking" that Adam is talking about. It's tough to hear that some churches aren't breaking out with real joy, isn't it?
As a trained Christian musician, at some point during that training I reached a point, and I've heard many fellow musicians say the same thing, where music and praise "split" from each other. I can't really play music for God anymore like I used to, because the experience is exactly the same as playing non-Christian music. I feel like wherever I play in congregational worship, the same thing happens where the skill level of the musicians is being mistaken for "inspired playing" by the congregation. Most people in congregation don't seem to have a clear boundary between good praise and good music, and I'm struggling with the idea whether you could consider feelings from music also feelings from God (after all, he is the creator of music and our experience of it). Some churches, to come back to your point, seem to recognise this idea and follow the thought that "good" or "free" music might distract from God because people experience emotions through music rather than God's presence, mistaking them for experiencing God. It's in fact what the Matt Redman song "heart of worship" is about: the musicians in his band got so distracted by music that they forgot how to worship
I used to go to this Christian overnight camp called Mason Dixon and they would hold a music session every night. It was really fun because they WOULD overplay.
Watching this as someone who is heavily involved in the CCM world, I think this is an incredibly well presented and well argued video. One argument I would have for the deliberate simplicity is that the church is a place full of diverse musical ability; people who want to play in church aren’t often top class musicians who can instantly play complicated scores put in front of them. The songs are sometimes written with this in mind, that it’s accessible for most musicians to play so it doesn’t exclude some people who couldn’t play it. The church is about community and it seems counter-intuitive to leave people out because they can’t play a song. But all in all, a great video and you brought up some really insightful points.
You may be clutching at straws there. I've heard of gospel players being on semi-constant rotation attempting to keep their spot otherwise they'd be replaced if they weren't up to scratch. I think if you want to inspire a sense of wonder and awe about god, playing to people without heart or soul is not the way to go. Furthermore to cater to people who are unable to deal with the music at hand means potentially boring a crowd and as a result losing congregation. If people don't have what it takes they should be encouraged to do better and lifted to higher standards. The alternative is for a church band to diminish the stature of its pretty important purpose to the lowest common denominator.
Also being involved in CCM-- I have long wondered, if people find Hillsong or Chris Tomlin songs difficult, then frankly, they probably aren't very good musicians. Why are we having them play in church then, in front of other people, for the glory of God? I mean, I'm not a very good facility manager. That's why no church has ever asked me to be their facilities manager. Not a trained and qualified preacher either, which is why I am not asked to preach. Why do we have incompetent musicians playing our music, forcing us to use some of the worst music and arrangements on earth just to play down to the lowest common denominator? People call it humility-- I don't. I call it devaluing God: as in, "God isn't worth the time and effort it would take to have really good music played by really good musicians." To me, you haven't justified the simplicity of the music, you've articulated the problem.
@@76JStucki Whilst I agree that the purpose of worship is to bring glory to God, the vast majority of churches won't have the resources to focus on the technicalities of the worship music to do that. For example, in our church, we have a congregation of about 250 with a group of 15 of us who do the worship on a rota. Everyone of us volunteers to do it, and the only practice time that we can get before a service is one evening in the week before the Sunday. Because of this, the focus of the worship group is to create the environment for people to connect with God
as soon as you started playing oceans at 4:32 I recognized it -- I don't know if that was the track you found the most promising for recontextualization or if it was just a random pick, but as someone who grew up in the "christian church featuring a white dude with an acoustic guitar" scene and also dislikes CCM, oceans is the exception for me. I found that song by accident when I was a teenager, and never told anyone about how much I liked it. I think that I don't ever want to hear it performed live, because the way I imagine it "musicked" is probably a lot messier and emotive than what I'd see in some CCM cover band. great video, thank you!
Man, i alway get kinda sad when they play like they are dead inside. Like, don't overplay, but always do your best at the music you are playing. If you're not doing the best, then why be there?
Skillfully and out of control are two different things. You wouldn’t solo Over an entire song in any genre. Unless that’s what the song requires. Skill and amount of notes you play are not the same.
As a Christian musician and someone who likes some of the CCM, I want to thank you for how you delivered your message. Your insight was informative, arguments were well supported and your points were cogent and you artfully avoided alienating and mocking those of us who try to live in the faith. You've also sparked an interest in learning more about "musicking." I have felt that before, but didn't have a name for it. Thanks for this very intelligent perspective.
Right on. I'm an Episcopalian, so I have plenty of company in hating CCM. But I grew up charismatic, so all of my oldest friends don't understand my objection to CCM.
I think that CCM faces an obstacle that is unique to the genre: it needs to appeal to everyone at the same time. You play Jazz Fusion. If someone doesn't like it, cool. You don't expect them to come to your shows. They don't care to hear what you play, they don't attend your show, all is well and good because you never expected them to come to your show. CCM, which is primarily performed in a church service setting, on the other hand has not just an audience, but an (hopefully) actively participating congregation of a widely-varying musical background. You (again, hopefully) have everyone from the angst-ridden Emo teen, to his Lynyrd-Skynyrd or Metallica loving father and great-grandmother who was raised on Chopin or Joan Baez or Bill Monroe. CCM, as performed in a church setting, has to appeal enough to people with such diverse musical backgrounds in such a way as to encourage the congregation to join in and sing along. I'm not saying that this is ideal. As a musician, I can honestly say that, at times, it very much isn't. Often, it's not satisfying to play the same IV, I, V, VI for an hour straight, calling the same progression four different songs. It IS however, satisfying when the band can engage the congregation enough to have most of them singing. And then, there's the anonymous comment cards. In one service, I've seen everything from "The music was beautiful," "the music was slow and boring," AND "the music was too fast and loud." EVERYONE and their grandmother has an opinion and it's their moral obligation to tell you how to do it right.
This comment is just on point. And your last passage indicates another problem: Almost everybody in church is highly emotional about music. Music is a heart issue (Christians are used to handling heart issues) but you can hardly approach it with categories like right and wrong (Christians are not used to that). How does a musical genre evolve and flourish when the musicians focus on the lowest common denominator and serve a community that is not even formed around the music but around the common faith & confession?
Man...my experience has been, more often than not, that the music in church ends up not really appealing to anyone. In a congregation of 500 people, I'll see 1 or 2 people who are really excited about the music, a slightly larger handful that hate it, and about 490 people who don't really care, and just sing along because that's what you do when you're in church. My position, for some time now, has been to treat music the same way we treat the preaching of the gospel. You give the congregation something good. Whether they "like it" or not is immaterial. It isn't about them anyway. You create a desire for good music by giving people a steady diet of good music and simply refusing to give them less. Currently, people in church have an appetite for bad music because that's what we've been giving them now for at least 2 decades. And a wider variety of styles should be heard. IN EVERY SERVICE. Don't have a specific service for a specific style, or else the only people who show up will be people who like that style. Play the best music we can from as many different styles as possible. (I don't mean 12 different styles in every service--worship sets aren't usually long enough for that. But why pigeonhole ourselves into one style all the time? Why? Because it's what people want? Is the music for people or for God? If it's for God, then why are we worried about what people want?)
I’ve been a Christian for basically all my life, I grew up in church, still go to church and I’ve at least visited quite a few churches of different theologies... I have never liked CCM and I am the target audience.. it seems fake to me and as though the band are trying to stir up emotion using the music. I much prefer worship that is fun or properly impactful. Emotional music is self serving whereas worship should be about God. A whole room of people singing about how emotional they are is a room of people focussing on themselves. How about actually having fun? When we have fun, we’re better able to think outside of ourselves aren’t we?
Grew up playing it, and only a few songs ever appealed to me, mainly from New Zealand songwriters in "Parachute Band". Thats because NZ has a base of highly musical people, who can sing harmony and find ways to make even the most basic progression interesting. The big name CCM was always bland, slightly "whining" and "begging" in tone, and forgettable. Which is pretty much like most people are. Complaining, begging, peasantry. I was like this, and still am to some extent. When one's church is basically begging people through emotional manipulation to participate and most importantly put money into it, then thats what the music will reflect. Begging and whining.
oh, that cover of Oceans is *beautiful*. any way we're getting a full recorded version of it? either with just the bass or with bass and band, both are amazing.
As a worship leader I walked into this very reserved but I really appreciate and respect the way you approached this subject. You’ve given me much to think about and bring into my leading. Thank you for being willing to do a video like this.
hold my crucifix? Classic rock, The Rez band. Glam metal Striper, thrash metal Living Sacrifice. need to chill come to the quiet by Fra John michael Talbot a monk who used to sit in with the eagles on guitar, with great pipes and a real gift of classical guitar that the Catholic church wanted to shut up by making him take a vow of silence. finishes the record as a instrumental that wins a grammy.
You don't have to rationally believe in something in order to feel believing in it. When you see a Hitchcock movie you may feel quite tensed even though you rationally know that it is only a fiction. It is a beauty that a good movie, story or music, if done correctly can cheat our sub-conscious mind into believing things, even if we know that it is a fiction. You may feel free to enjoy religious music and feel its holiness without feeling the need to rationalize your feeling.
CCM Leader: Man, I want to praise my immortal, all encompassing ethereal being that spans the cosmos... CCM Musician:...so we should play only three to four chords and play extremely deconstructed pop music? CCM Leader: Yes.
I wish you could record the instrumentals for those CCM's I really love the originals but I also like hearing your guitar soloing the tune after the chorus of instruments
This video really nails a lot of things well. Personally I’ve heard many CCM songs on the radio and thought “blech” and then heard a friend lead it in worship on Sunday, or maybe around a campfire, and have a totally different experience of a song. Part of that is I prefer a more stripped down acoustic style, and part is that the “musicking” experience just feels a lot more authentic.
It’s also interesting, because vocalists are rewarded for being showy, whereas the other instrumentalists aren’t. It shows you the priority of the genre, I guess.
I disagree. It's all about placement. Vocalists are not rewarded for being showy out of place any more than musicians are. They too are told to hold back when what they want to do isn't necessary. That's with music in general. Ccm or otherwise. The priority is to have good sounding, well balanced music. I think people just wanna take shots at ccm because it's easy when most musicians and most genres carry similar principles when executing in a show etc nobody ever congratulates overdoing things or putting things out of place ever.. So the whole argument is kinda bogus if you ask me
Elias Point, Koyaanisqatsi: Life Out of Balance, is a 1982 American experimental film with music composed by Philip Glass. Worth checking out, very cool, if not somewhat sobering imagery but, apparently, some people aren't too keen on Mr Glass' compositions. Usually only the cool kids like it because it's a little different.
@@EliasPoint It's actually a Trilogy of films: Koyaanisqatsi: Life Out of Balance (1982) Powaqqatsi: Life in Transformation (1988) Naqoyqatsi: Life as War (2002)
OK… I made it to the end and I have to say that I was pleased and also surprised at your choice inclusion of Hillsong ocean. The very first time I ever heard that song was five minutes before playing it leading worship I had a church in Colorado years ago… Let’s just say it gave me chills then because of the way we musiked it as it did just now watching your recontexualization just now. We were told to never do it like that again You are so absolutely right when you talk about the interaction between performer and audience… That has actually been one of the driving factors removing me from worship bands… It’s not real… It’s without any soul. You mentioned a while back some thing about a Q&A section where somebody had asked you about why white people can’t swing or something like that, and I really feel like there is a deep connection between the “not swinging” and the overly constrained Experience of “dialing it back“ during a worship service. I never could’ve articulated it until now but wow… I do thank you
I completely agree with this! I have been a sincere Christian for most of my life, and I have always found this CCM genre difficult to enjoy. There was never anything in the Bible that said to worship with a specific genre of music or played in a certain way, also music and speech are not the only methods to worship God with. Sorry if this is a bothersome comment. It was intended just to inform.
@@NedJeffery I'll pray the demons of that song will leave you. Dude, I had songs I HATED because we had to overplay them. I totally understand why the Beatles came up with such amazing stuff because they played it ad nauseum.
Speaking as somebody who's been playing in CCM groups since the mid '90s: I get it. A lot of CCM is frankly vapid and boring. It tends to come from churches that focus heavily on maximizing attendance, so the music and lyrics are made to be as broadly appealing, inoffensive, and easily digested as possible. That's why most of it ends up sounding like pop music. It's rare for CCM to be challenging to the listener in the ways that other genres like jazz, prog, or metal can be. That's where the whole "don't overplay" thing comes in. IMHO, there are multiple aspects to this. One is that when playing CCM in a worship service, you have to be aware of the song's dynamics in the context of the service; for example, you don't necessarily want to have a loud, triumphant sounding song as the sending song for a Lenten service. Another is that church bands are often constantly rotating casts of volunteers with wildly varying experience levels who only rehearse the songs once or twice before playing them in front of others; because of that, "don't overplay" is often a defensive posture by band leaders to a) keep young or inexperienced players from showboating or embarrassing themselves and/or b) keep the music palatable/unchallenging for as broad an audience as possible. However, I think making "don't overplay" the default position is wrongheaded, because as I said before, context is key. Honestly, the most fun I've had playing CCM has tended to be around campus ministries. College age audiences are much more accepting of stylistic experimentation than "grown up" churches. As a result, things like taking hymns or folk-y church camp songs and rocking them up can work really well there. (Probably the craziest thing we ever did in that regard was playing the traditional Lutheran hymn "Built On A Rock" more or less like a Korn song, complete with 7-string guitar...)
The modern church needs to stop playing at church and drop 'showtime at the Apollo'! Worship does not and cannot replace the gospel which is the POWER of God for salvation (supernatural transformation from the inside out). It's not about you, it's about Jesus. "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4;23-24
Very informative stuff Troy, the context stuff makes sense, and that's interesting to see how that correlates with the college kids being more into embellishing the songs.
Or that some people do seem to praise worship to uplift our own musical talents by centering ourselves so...that doesn't help either. Seems like all musicians who find CCM bland are Christians should rise up to make better music.
Holobrine Nonamerican here. Does CCM mean “white” Christian music? Contemporary gospel music, which Is often marketed as contemporary Christian (or labelled that way on the streaming platforms) is also meant for worship but is often extremely musically sophisticated/interesting to say the least.
@@volemrienfoutre Yes, I feel this. I find it extremely sad that in white churches in America, gospel music is seldom played. I am incapable of playing gospel music well (not enough talent), but I enjoy it quite a bit.
Thank you for making this, Adam - this was well done. As a caveat - I LOVE Christian music. Another caveat - we who are deep in the genre make a pretty big distinction between modern praise and worship music and what has been categorized as 'CCM'. In this video you focussed almost solely on modern praise and worship. But that's a topic for another day :). One thing about these songs is that they are written to be played by hundreds (or, literally hundreds of thousands) of cover bands - churches. And in the vast majority of these churches, the musicians playing these songs are novice - or just straight up beginners - that struggle to play the 1-4-5-6 progressions that live in all these songs. I've never been in a writing session in a large group like Hillsong - but I would suspect that this factor is taken into account when writing songs. It's kind of sad when you think about it - music being simplified for the sake of those who will be asked to play it - but it's a reality. It's why our channel exists - to help equip the musicians that play these songs in churches. But when you were talking about Don Moen's video about overplaying. That part hit home. The idea that we should squelch the joy that we have when playing. It happens, and I believe it saddens our Creator (who we believe created all art as a testament to His greatness). For most of recorded history, the church created the most beautiful art that existed in the world (or at least the church commissioned it). In modern history, the church mostly makes an imitation of the greatest art. It's a shame - something that my friends and I talk about often. Before this comment turns into a novel, one more point. There are many inside church/Christian circles who would say that any showmanship or skill being put on display during worship is some kind of sin. An attempt to draw the attention off of God/Christ and on to us. They accuse churches and musicians of being 'performance based' or selfish, and they use it as fuel to accuse churches and ministries like Hillsong, Bethel, etc as heretical. It's a shame, but it's honestly a huge issue that churches and worship musicians face. It's also just another facet of Christianity that makes causes the rest of the world to look at us and see how hypocritical and petty (and just flat out stupid and wrong) we can be. I'm not sure honestly how to fight against it, but I think the church creating beautiful art - in this case music - is a good way to start. Anyway - again - this video said a lot of thing that many of us who create, play, listen, and worship to this genre of music think and feel. Thanks for making it. Finally - you used 'Oceans' as an example of something good in this video. And I agree with you. Also - for the record - I really have a lot of respect for Don Moen :). I think what he was trying to communicate in that video was something a bit different than how it came across, but your point was still well made.
Thank you Worship Tutorials!! This was well said! I’m a worship leader that follows your channel and it has helped me grow as a leader and musician tremendously! I hope Adam Neely will read this and start this discussion!
I cannot agree with this awesome comment more. Improvisation SHOULD be welcomed and encouraged in worship. I have said this since the day I became a Christian (I am Jewish originally). I am a professional jazz musician and audio engineer and play bass and quite often Fender Rhodes in my Church, and I'm always finding ways to sneak improvisations into the songs. Heck, I have even slapped my bass a few times and not been to go on a Don Moen-style time out...... YET. Maybe when I start slipping in some tritonal subs.......
I also appreciated that it never felt like I was being shamed as a musician for liking Worship Music. I sometimes feel embarrassed to show people my most listened on Spotify because Elevation is my most listened artist by a long shot, and I don't want to deal with the "oh its just repeating the same thing over and over" type comments. I think it's good for people who aren't into the genre to acknowledge it's strengths.
"we who are deep in the genre make a pretty big distinction between modern praise and worship music and what has been categorized as 'CCM'" Also agree, I actually really dislike the radio-ready (ahem K-Love) genre of super poppy CCM, partially cause it has less musical diversity than P&W despite not having the "must be playable by the 3rd string guitarist" type limitations.
I got inspired to write a concert band arrangement of Oceans because of this video. I’ve always loved that song, ever since I heard it a few years ago, so I figured I’d give it a shot. Thanks Adam for the inspiration!
@@griffindrucker5712 frick me too, I went to a christian camp a while back and I couldn't get enough of that song even if I was really uncomfortable with the environment, my heart still melts and i still sing the words but it's not god or jesus im worshipping, its the music
@@xymaryai8283 I get you bro, I'm just like you, Hillsong does know how to make some good music, You should probably try and listen to "Whole Heart", I don't go to church anymore, but this song is so good!
Yeah. I feel like more people (like my agnostic ass) would go to church more often if the ambience they're trying to implement is not the feeling of it being a chore.
but how do we really measure the greatness of a song? does a more complex chord progression means "better" and therefore worthy of praising God? because I think the real purpose of a worship song is to make more people worship Him
I would think Christian music would want to act like a catalyst for religious zeal. I'm not at all religious, but the most elated I've been at the beauty of existance has been when listening to music.
Agreed! As a person who has been in her share of worship bands, I can totally relate to that “fake feel” one can get from the P&W section of a church service. There is something lost there when you have to follow the formula. I would love a service that is *just* worship and you go where “the spirit leads”, to use a church-y turn of phrase. Bethel does this pretty well, if you have a chance to watch their webcasts.
Jesse Hartfield how do you explain the hate that is coming out of the Christian community? The intolerance. Of gay people, and trying to make others live by your beliefs?
Agreed. Oh look ... another worship album with a white chorus in the background on every verse and it's all in G and it repeats itself over and over and over ...
@@johnyyaussi1339 There's no explaining that away. It's abhorrent. That said, there is a growing contingent of Christians who don't buy that intolerance is actually Christ-like in any way and are working to present a more just vision of Christianity.
The only CCM group I've ever heard that I can really stand to hear is the group Out Of The Grey. I actually use it for a reference sometimes when mastering similar music styles. Give them a listen...
Hey Adam thanks for the video. Still recovering from pains and trauma from when I was younger and this really helped me identify how much of those I relate to CCM. Your rendition of Ocean felt cathartic.
CCM takes no risks. When artists come up in the genre that want to talk about hard, difficult, or complex topics, they get shut down fast. Gospel music is 10/10.
Quikostdreggs I’m glad he mentioned Gungor and Kings Kaleidoscope, they both go into complex topics and don’t get enough love by the Christian community at large.
Gospel music is struggling though. The legends are no more and there are no clear successors, just lot of noise. Lacks depth. You can only make so many songs referring to all types of weather events...
@@bige689 Adam without glasses is already very intelligent, so this makes the glasses-wearing super intelligent marine Adam extremely intimidating to me.
I get this is a popular quote attributed to Christian rock, but there's secular rock that people believe makes rock worse too. There are a lot of great rock groups like August Burns Red and Extol that do great work. By the way, I'm an Atheist.
@@Rando-Igno Rock shouldn't have any place in Christian music. Bringing the whole obnoxious hippie, drug, and sex culture into Christianity is sacrilegious. The term "Christian Rock" is as ridiculous as saying you're going to attend a Christian orgy, or smoke some Christian pot, or engage in some Christian fornication or adultery. It's the trashing of something sacred with the profane that's the problem. It's also about the constant preaching to the choir. How many songs do there need to be stating the same damn thing over and over again. It's as if they don't keep reinforcing their beliefs, they're going to shrivel up and die. It's the dumbing of things down to attract the lowest common denominator. There are all kinds of problems with the concept.
As an active member of a worship band, who hates CCM, I rewatch this video on a usual basis , to reevaluate myself, my approach and learning to adapt ideas that ccm tries to convey into something enjoyable and into something that fits my perception of God. So thank you mister Neely, you help me keep myself true to my calling.
@@1SSJA playing fun music is very different than playing music with fun people. But I get what you’re saying. Just tired of seeing excited, talented, driven musicians get sucked into the worship music complex only to be chewed up and spit out in a short amount of time only to never play music again. I personally have know dozens of these people, I was one of these people, and I did the chewing and the spitting and the being chewed. It was not fun, even though some of the people were. I have a much better time now playing fun music, I also still play with fun people, so win win. It’s still so sad to have see so many others put down their instruments for good (or at least until today, hopefully they’ll pick them back up in the future)
"Pursue a creativity that is undistracting, a creativity that unites the church around gospel-centered truth rather than dividing the church over musical innovation." Bob Kauflin, 2013. Link here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-u2VtvPtnu5U.html
It really is. It also makes me emotional every time I hear it. I don't know what it is about the composition and melodies, but it's a beautiful song. And this is coming from someone who doesn't like the majority of CCM.
I love the melody, my thing is the repetitive nature of harping on a few phrases. I believe with worship and praising you should put forth stronger song writing. The musicianship is pretty good. But can be better
The part where you talk about the … reservedness of modern classical musicking … it’s as if you’re talking about my father. He hates attending most live classical performances because they are so stuffy and uncomfortable. He wants to be up and dancing, cheering and clapping, during a performance. He really likes the vibe of Andrew Rieu productions. As cheesy as they might be, they unabashedly have fun … they emote in an unbridled way - and that really resonates with him (and me). Thanks for the awesome video.
Marcus Bevzyuk I know of (not particularly djent) christian metalcore bands such as Fit For A King and Architrcts. They refer to god in their songs, not necessarily in an act of worship, but more of a cry, an acknowledgement. Which is really what christians do when they worship god.
Watched this video right now.. and I just wanna say, Thank You! Thank you for bringing a whole new perspective to CCM. I being a christian and a part of my Church's worship team, have always heard CCM the same way and never really thought of the musicality of it. And now that I've watched your video, I also noticed the same. I hope someone, someday can make a difference and bring the joy of music and praise to CCM.. Thank you once again!
That solo bass arrangement of "Oceans" you did there was really nice. That melody is lovely P.S. I totally understand and in almost every point agree with you
Omg omg omg omg i love your drumming in the early UNITED albums. I think you’re the best drummer they ever had and i really like the way you play. Can’t believe i will see you lurking here ❤️
Aren't there numerous drummers and ensembles that play Hillsong music?? I mean, there is no one "band" for Hillsong, each song has a completely different lineup, and each church has its own band. So.....you're "the" drummer??
The band leader sitting there bluntly saying things like "it's my job to make sure the musicians don't play with any personality or emotion" sounds like something out of a hamfisted satire
Except that wasn't his point, and it was a technical video aimed at people already in the Christian Worship culture, rather than someone who is unfamiliar with the problem he is addressing. Because of that, he didn't fully express his understanding of the issue, instead jumping directly to the solution. His over all point was "Play to the song". Do not let your playing be a distraction to the rest of the music. That's what he was saying. There are songs where your goal is to engender a more contemplative attitude. In those cases overplaying should be discouraged. On the other hand, there are songs that are more expressive and exultant. In those cases, be expressive, so long as you do not distract from the overall worship, and underplaying is discouraged. His "guilt to the Lord thing" is focusing on the attitude of the artist. On a more atmospheric song, like Moen uses as an example, is your "overplaying" an attitude of showing your all, or is it an expression of your desire to give it your all? These seem similar, but they are quite different. In the former, you have an attitude of showing off, pointing the attention at yourself, in the latter, you're expressing worship, ineptly attempting to point to God. The former should be corrected (up to, as Moen advised, possibly asking the artist to step away from the worship team for a while), while the latter should be tempered and refined.
@@MrSJPowell I agree with your last bit.... not letting the playing become a distraction. Yeah, showboating gets in the way... Unfortunately, in some cases, there are those that lead who want to control the experience. In other cases, there are those who don't want competition for the "lead" instrument, usually the keyboard. It removes the fun.... it can remove the life, heart and soul, out of playing. It can interfere with leading the people present into worship. THAT undermines its intent and purpose.
@@willbarnz6960 The best attitude I've seen is that the leader picks the music, and gives direction on how they expect it to go, but for the actual worship set, let the group collectively follow the lead of where God's taking the service.
Yeah as someone who’s played in worship bands for almost 20 years, I’d have to disagree with that band leader’s approach to overplaying, and what he even calls overplaying. It don’t think it fairly represents what we do on Sundays. I think the main reason worship leaders have to talk about overplaying is because we often have very inexperienced musicians in our bands, and if they haven’t learned how to pick their parts in a way that works with everything else that’s going on musically you get a lot of competing stuff going on and it just doesn’t sound good.
Yes, please! As some one who has played this music for the past 4 years and having this song roll around every 3 - 4 months, a 'recontextualized' version would be great to hear. I usually try to give it a big Tony Bank's Afterglow treatment. Seems like a song referencing walking on water deserves a big lush sound, at least for me.
I think Neely’s main point is the stifling of the musicians from truly making a joyful noise, which, as a Christian, is one of the points of music. The Bible talks about making a joyful noise. It also talks about singing “one’s own song” and “singing a new song unto the Lord”- I think these verses or phrases from the Bible point to the “Musiking” Neely was referring to - making a personal, heartfelt, spontaneous connection with music. I guess there are various eras/zeitgeist/epochs of music to have spurred the kind of music Don Moen produced. Heck, I worshiped to Don Moen in the 90s. But I believe we as humans should not be putting a lid on how estatic we could feel about worship. Heck, Gospel music, which Neely acknowledges, does estatic, joyful, non-stifling expressions of joy pretty well and both musicians and the congregation end the session both blessed. I think that’s Musiking. Also, whether a CCM song is “Musicking” could depend on the time and experiences in a listeners life. Our hearts are dynamic. This is an edited version of a comment I left here- ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RV2j3nW3aSI.html
Hahaha yep. Presbyterian, not RC, but I definitely kinda cringed at his comment there. Though I totally understand his point. KISS is good sometimes, but there is beauty in the complex.
Actually up until the XIX century you could hear the Gregorian music being harmonized with improvisation, even doing crazy thing like singing a Gregorian chant with really long notes, and improvising cannons and counter point on the spot...
Adam, I want to thank you so much for this video. My wife loves CCM and I tolerate it, just barely. Your explanation of what you found that you did not like really made me realize that I felt the same way and did not know how to express it. There are plenty of older pieces of Christian music that are musically excellent and they are being ignored in church worship in favor of the songs that people hear on their local CCM radio stations. I hope that this is a fad that will eventually fall by the wayside. I want to hear worship music that is musically excellent in addition to the message it is trying to bring.
Delighted to see one of my videos show up in a Neely production, absolutely cracking up over the fact it's THAT video. As always, nice work- and thank you for the shoutout!
Adam your perspective is very true. We should make a joyful noise unto the Lord, and use our ALL to glorify God, we should not hold back. I am a Christian songwriter and I try to do exactly that in my music. God gives me the lyrics, and then I go wild with the theory, using things like negative harmony and odd time. Thanks for making this video, it was such a blessing to hear someone else’s thoughts and perspective on this topic.
When Adam mentioned Twoset I smiled. I really enjoy seeing other music RU-vidrs on each other's channels, it's like a they're a big ole family of music bois
the funny thing is CCM really does have standards. Sounds like it's time to turn some CCM standards into Jazz standards. Get ready for my 30 minute avant garde rendition of Hosanna
Of course then it is no longer the music you hate. You didn't repair it. You made an imperfect clone. But that, too, is like an autobiographical performance art. You are telling a story about hate and transformation.
"God blessed our happy cubicle Keep it safe and sanitized Homogenized and pasteurized There's no place like numb..." Which is exactly the opposite of the Gospel tradition of ecstasy! Lyrics are from The Hive, by Jimmy Webb, recorded by Richard Harris in the early seventies Here's the entire song: See her walking whitely As though she really was a virgin With her tiny feet precisely on the line She thinks her whitely thoughts About the whitely things she bought And the alter crouches silently Waiting for the virgin to arrive You can almost hear the buzzing of the hive They played the whitely music As though it was really music In the parking-lot they're lettering a sign The preacher says the proper things And then the rusty alto sings And now they'll all get roaring drunk Pretending they're essentially alive While the proud procession leads her to the hive God blessed our happy cubicle Keep it safe and sanitized Homogenized and pasteurized Theres no place like numb Behold a formal female Disappearing through the doorway She has dreamed of this since she was only nine She's never really fought it And now by God she's got it And the alter crouches silently Waiting for the virgin to arrive You can almost hear her screaming In the hive
As a christian who loves rock, I'm getting tired of the CCM. It's like we have a factory of songs with generic stuffs put together found off the shelf.
Indeed. It's like New Country, only worse. And as far as all of these child performers that they use, I am very wary of the situation, what with the reputation of the Church and all... It's like the Disney Club on steroids, and I really do worry for those children.
@@IOxyrinchus Manipulation and deception are not exactly new concepts with Christianity, or religion in general. As a really silly example, Catholics constantly say you must do this or that under threat of going to hell, yet in their very own holy-book, it says that Jesus died "for our sins", or in other words, he died so that nobody would ever have to go to hell again. Contradiction much?
this seems to be a modern manifestation of protestant austerity, very strange that the performance is meant to be stripped back given the wealth of orchestral music that attempts to be ornate as a way of glorifying God.
Theres something about the 'whiteness' of CCM and its proximity to historical and current institutional/political power that affects how lots of us experience it which doesn't bog you down in the same way when you listen to Gospel.
You articulated exactly what I was thinking but couldn't find the right words to say. It's not so much about the blandness or repetition (which are present in spades) of CCM but its "conform or be cast out" vibe. It is exactly what you said: music that represents current institutional and political power. I grew up in the mainstream Lutheran church but have spent plenty of time in the years since in worship settings that heavily incorporate CCM. It has always made me uncomfortable in a way I could never quite put my finger on. Thanks for helping my figure out why.
