I can only imagine how embarrassing it was to some British officers when they learned that their supposedly superior engineers were sighting their rifles less accurately than the French were in 1867 with blackpowder guns that had an arc like a howitzer!
@@genericpersonx333 It is exactly what you need on your new rifles. There is no need for everyone to have a telescope. Although you will not see the enemy, who is 3 miles away, fall over after the volley, be assured that they will.
Fun fact. Back in the day, (1980’s) if you bought or mail ordered a lower grade Lee Enfield, (shooter grade or parts gun) you would occasionally get a Lee-Metford in Canada. $90-$150.
A story about Enfield Armoury in WW2. Before my Uncle became a soldier in WW2, he worked at the armoury (parents lived in Enfield). One day during the Blitz, his Mother heard a massive explosion. My Uncle came home with dust all over him and a cigarette in his mouth and he said “Home early Mom, factory got bombed”. Got to love the British spirit 😀
@@mauricestainsby196 According to the internet, it's a unicorn gun, but some examples should exist. Considering this is Forgotten Weapons, seems within the realm of possibility.
I was going to mention this! Unfortunately I think they've been permanently rendered useless as anything but large paperweights. As much as I complain about my life, I'm so very fortunate to be an American.
@@peterclarke7240 that's not the point I'm getting at all, I am a collector. My comment pertains to the actual collector dollar value of the pieces in question. I'm not certain if you have anyone that collects historical firearms in your homeland, but as a historical firearms collector, that is the lense in through which I view these pieces of history. Although one of my great grandfathers was a Highlander in the First World War, I won't pretend to know anything of Scottish laws or of their firearms culture(if any even remains after Culloden and everything else).
I love that little detail about the upper handguard. The most frightening phrase to any military equipment designer must surely be "And then the troops got their hands on it."
As a designer of miltary kit my father would be part of the team sent out to troop trails just to watch what happened so the kit could go back and be "squaddie proofed". There is nothing like a squaddie to find intresting and unthought of (by designers) ways to break stuff.
Trying to decipher the comments and replies gets to be headache inducing. Wish people would take a few moments to read what they've written to see if it needs adjustment. Hard to believe "information" when it is presented with so many mis-written or misplaced words. Yeah yeah yeah, I know. Dyslexia. English not original language.
British Weapons: How you'd think they work: Mark 1- 2 - 3 etc How they actually work Mark 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1* - 2 - Blimey, it's time to adopt a new gun
The earliest rifle covered in detail in that book is the Thorneycroft rifle, which slightly post dates the Lee-Metford, and was designed in response to the lessons of the Boer War.
@@frostedbutts4340 Even the L85A1 when performing at it's absolute worst will get more rounds downrange, with greater accuracy, at a greater range in a minute than the Brown Bess. Admittedly it is a very low bar to improve upon, given the maximum rate of fire for the Brown Bess is between 3 and 6 rounds per minute, and it's effective range against point targets is just over 100 yards, but I imagine the L85A1 could fire at least 6 rounds before jamming.
A lot of those old rifles didn't die! Why waste a brick outhouse of an action? Rebarrel and you have everything from .22 Training rifles, I learnt to shoot on one, to a .410 shotgun though I have seen a 12 bore single barrel version.
Thanks so much IAN .Down here in NZ we had a whole bunch of early models with repeated upgrades to confuse. Sparkbrook models I have seen have square cross hatching/checking ,grip grooves, and recessed cutoff access, a lot of mixed "repairs" An odd claim by reputable old hill men is accurate long-range kills with volly sights, yeah incredible especially with differing .303 propellents!
@@iatsd makes sense. my first thought was how can you go off to war without first sighting in your rifle at the range? would undo any factory errors or theoretical load sightings... but I quess even a "common sense idea" has to start somewhere
@@sh4dowchas3r Metford was black powder rifling, as I remember particullay with Ballisite the first smokless powder used by the British there was also excessive throat wear in the chamber, and pressures blew barreles. A Committe, in best Britsh style, finnised Nobel's patents, and developed CORDITE. Enfeild then developed the rifiling to match. Balliste blanks were still used for greande launching, henc the reinforced barrelas on some Great War SMLE
I see a copy of Johnson's "Rifles and Machine Guns" on the shelf. I have what is most likely a first edition, printed during WWII. My father picked up the book when he was in the Marine Corps during the war. He thought it would come in handy.
I love old stuff and books I'm particular. That book that he's a great insight into the thinking on especially machine guns of the time. I mean how else can we really understand how ppl thought and learn moving forward if not for those old books. Yours has some awesome history and it's really cool your Pop served in WW2. Anyway.
@@brianmoreira7578 He was sent in as a replacement rifleman during the Battle of Okinawa. He saw how bad the fighting would be in the invasion of japan, and always referred to Harry Truman as, "The man who saved my life." No regrets at all over the atomic bombs.
@@williamsullivan9401 Nobody who actually understands what the situation was back then does. As many US Marines as would have died in the invasion, far more Japanese would too, far more than died from the bombs. I have yet to meet anyone who can give a convincing argument as to why they should not have dropped them.
That's a different, general-subject book. What's visible on the shelf is a more recent book, specifically about Melvin Johnson's semiauto rifle and light machine guns.
Great to have you describe this important Lee, Metford. In ww2 New Zealand converted 1200 to light machine guns, each fitted with a Bren 20 shot magazine for home defence. We smile now but remember Britten had two German machine guns to guide their work on the Sten gun.
Excellent, informative video! Useful for some research I'm doing for a story involving these weapons. I only wish we'd seen some working of the bolt and the loading/firing processes.
Thanks Ian first rifle i bought was SMLE south African railway police .last weapon i kept after sold my Mauser action rifle p14 Winchester lovely rifle . Eventually gave to a keen young hunter
"And then there were the changes..." The British Army specification for ALL equipment ( weapons, bikes, tanks, uniforms, whatever) is called "List of changes" or LoC.
My great Grandmother was born in 1888, the year this design was adopted. She died in 1988. Given that some Indian Police units still use the Lee Enfield, the design has out lived a human being by thirty two years. Strange, isn't it?
The word “speed” is certainly appropriate when describing the Lee-Enfield rifle but has reference to the co-developer of the arm rather than speed of operating the bolt. J.J Speed was an employee of Enfield Arsenal in England and developed the cutoff, 2-piece stock,and several other minor features of British Lee -Enfield rifles. The “Lee-Speed” marking appeared on some early long Lee rifles, and especially on copies intended for the commercial market.
The cool thing is I have an 1888 Bayonet that my great-great-grandfather got his hands on in the First World War somehow, he was in the Australian Army a rifleman served on the Western Front 1915-1919. it's still in a good way, the crown still there and was used a lot by my grandfather, as a farmers tool.
"British small arms development is, ... , a total nightmare..." So your saying that the British were being the same with their guns that the Germans were being with their tanks?
Honestly my first thought when he said that was "Ah, like Luftwaffe aircraft." because the Germans loved them some sub-pattern field modifications customisation that all of course had official designations because Germany.
Yesterday I watched the old live action 'the legend of tarzan' and said "that gun seems a bit too high tech for the 1800s" and now this video is made, what a coincidence.
I've always had a fondness for older British weapons. It's a shame that while we here in the US get to own them, shoot them, and generally enjoy having them in our gun racks, the average British citizen might not be so lucky (especially insofar as handguns). For that matter, I can glance over many a foreign military weapon that I own but which the citizens of said nations cannot. I suppose once the heat and bugs die down a bit here on the Gulf Coast, I should take them all out and enjoy them to their fullest in the names of those who cannot. ;) But, politics and pro/anti arguments aside, whenever a nation with as wide an interest and as much field experience as the old British Empire picks a service weapon, I'd say it tends to be a good one. Likewise with small nations surrounded by enemy territory ... but that's another subject.
I still boggle at how the UK adopted the detatchable box magazine and then the Army steadfastly refused to use it as intended for the gun's entire lifetime.
It was used as Britsh Militray intended , up to about 1916 when the SMLE Mk1 No iii* was introduced and the cut of fwent, mainly to ease manufactuer , not change in discipline. If the nomacleture confuses you, you are in the majority. SMLE Mk1 was Rifle No1 the .22 training rifle was Rifle No2 and the P14 eneded up Rifle No3.
I honestly don't think it would be quicker to reload by swapping the magazine, as opposed to chargers (stripper clips). I say this based on my No4Mk2, the magazine is a pig to get out, and then a pig to get back in again. The design is not optimized for quick reloads
*giggles in Australian. The ANZAC had a legendary rate of fire reportedly due the widespread scrounging of additional magazines and a fire order that occasionally used one man to fire and one man to reload. The Imperial Germans thought Oz rifle battalions were machine regiments...
It’s remarkable how close they already had it to the versions that took the field as the best bolt-action service rifles ever made. The trigger, the bolt placement, the front locking lugs. Probably some rimlock issues with that single-feed magazine that were sorted out in the SMLE. Thanks for the video on this beauty.
They a beautifully made rifle and smooth operating. I have a 1903 Mk1* that I picked up a few years ago and I feel lucky to have it. It is almost impossible to find an unaltered Mk1 like the one in the video.
With Alex Zedra, Tony Sentmanat, and Tu Lam being added to COD MW operator rosters for being prominent members of the gun community I say they should ad Ian as well. I mean who better to make a K98 Mg38 loadout for. Just a thought
One of my favourite War Picture Library comics during the 1970's was of a British soldier during WWII who loved his Lee Metford, and after being knocked out during a battle, loses his rifle. He then proceeds to escape from captivity and hunt down his Lee Metford, causing mayhem and chaos as he does so. At one stage he even has to steal it back during a formal regimental dinner where the old rifle is presented to a British general as a souvenir... In the end he has his beloved Lee Metford, and all is well in his little world.
By 1883 "German" Mauser was Model 1871. Officers compared rifle from same generation as Martini-Henry. Germans did not adopt Mauser in 1888 too. Those officers met other Mausers soon.
I hope the future video discusses the reasons for ditching metford rifling. Polygonal rifling is sold (in part) today on the idea that it prolongs barrel life, but they had the opposite effect on the Lee-Metford. I'd love to know why
@@jonathanferguson1211 You'd be in the position to know, thanks! Interesting that it doesn't "scale" with metal "quality". Obviously theres a variety of factors that goes into barrel wear - hardness, toughness, temperature effects, etc and not every factor scales linearly, but I wonder what it is in this case. Throat erosion due to the inferior hot hardness maybe?
@Wisty Boy modern polygonal rifling is also shallow so that doesnt answer the question. What the specific difference in material properties causes it is the question.
@@DSlyde it's a simple answer. The difference is the way the steel used in the two barrels are produced. Gun manufacturers and steel manufacturers didn't have the modern technology to adjust alloys for production. Old iron and steel deteriorated much faster. On top of that significant improvements in the heat treatment and hardening techniques in the modern era. Hence why old guns couldn't put anywhere near the amount of rounds down range. Think of the difference between the MG 34 barrels and the M60 barrels. Different production methods of the m60 increased barrel life significantly. Despite the m60 being design off the MG 34 and MG 42. Same principle applies to the Lee Metford and the Lee Enfield.
If you're just going to chain the magazine to the rifle and never change magazines, what is even the point of designing it to use detachable magazines? Why not just use a fixed internal magazine and save on manufacturing costs?
Originaly two magazines per rifle were to be issued. Then the Charger /stripper clip was perfected, and it was cheaper. The detachable bit does make cleaning easier and the cost of changing production for no real gain, it stayed.
@@samcoupland Not to mention it would still have to stick proud of the woodwork, and they were worried about damage to the mag, so having readily replaceable mags made more sense than having a fixed, yet extended, mag.
You've got to also remember that original design intent and end user intent don't always line up. So deciding the gun functioned admirably but not wanting your soldiers to lose the magazine wasn't enough to re-engineer everything. Simple solution to a potential problem.
Fun fact: New Zealand SAS patrols still hook up their magazines to the trigger guard with a paracord (last saw it on a photo about 5 years ago), I think the reason was to be able to drop your magazine without losing it in case you need to do the "mag dump and run away" thing (I forgot what it's called too lol)
i have a 1917 lee enfield and the safety is missing always wondered if that was a field modification or if it was broken/lost later in life..looks like it's been gone a long time
Curious about the bore size .303. Did enfield armory just pull this out of the air or is it that they chose 7.7 mm for the bore and converted it to imperial to make it appear British.
The British admired the 7.5mm Rubin bullet but wanted something heavier. Rather than mess with the aerodynamics, they kept the proportions of the bullet the same, while increasing the overall size. Resulting in an increase in calibre to 7.7mm.
Nice. Great condition. The archetype of the dynasty, one might say. Upon seeing the bayonet, my first thought is that it looked modern for its day. Not excessively long in an era when sword bayonets were common. It is about the same length as the early Garand bayonets (the early '03 Springield bayonets were longer- 16" blades i think- we hadn't wised up yet). The Brits do get a little confusing with the marks and stars, but at least they weren't reluctant to make improvements. I have a No. 4 Mk1, and i can see wgere it made a fine battle rifle- robust, reliable, simple and effective sights, smooth fast bolt action, and 10 round capacity. With surplus ammo of unknown pedigree, i was getting center hits on the 100 yard gong the first occasion i fired it. Great rifle. Nice to see the great grandpa in such good, unaltered condition. Great video as always. Thank you
Outstanding As anyone who might of read any of my comments will know, I consider the Lees to be the best Bolt action Battle rifles. The vast majority of problems were the results of English gentlemen making bad decisions. ie Sticking to the rim, after there was smokeless rounds. (Although there were reasonably good reasons when it was using black powder) The choice to not issue the extra magazines when they had the capability to make them was another, that is not the fault of the design. I know someone will comment that the mauser has a stronger action, and it does but for a Battle rifle using a very good round (.303) it didn't need to be stronger. The only reason the P-13 used a mauser type action was that it was designed for a ludicrously over powered round. lol okay don't with my early morning rant. Ian thank you for a great rifle and show, well done as usual. Who was responsible for the modifications to the magazine? I think I have asked before, were the made by James Paris Lee or Mr. Speed, or was there someone else? Maybe I should change from the CZ ( I love Chezce designed guns) to JacksonLee?
HEY IAN! I have a 1918 Lee Enfield SMLE mk3* my grandfather collected sometime after he served in WW2. Interestingly, where the brass circle that is normally in the stock was replaced with an American quarter minted in 1956. I was wondering if anyone knows of anything similar.
I've always liked the darker stain the European rifles had from this era. I'm not sure if it's the age of the wood that turns it that color but it's so aesthetically pleasing to me.
A couple of comments. A shame that .43 Spanish ammo is so rare/expensive, there are a lot of Rolling Block rifles chambered for it. I have a .22 trainer that has the volley sight but is missing the front bead pointer, I realize that it is pointless on the trainer but I'd like to have that anyway.
Thanks Ian used to be very much into weapons.owned various. 303 over years and Mausers .Hunted with both .Had a 1906 Bambata long 303. Best 303 was P14 Remington.Boer weapon was his own and besides the 303 bolt and falling block used byZAR boers there must of been a number among Botha Natal boers and Smuts Cape rebels being British colonies
I wonder just how effective the notch on the front sight is. I would love to see a rifle with these type of sights on the 9 Hole Reviews practical accuracy course.
Those book shelves look conspicuously empty. Better get Headstamp working overtime to fill them up again.... While on the subject of books, what happened to your weekly book reviews Ian?
Those interested in the development of British army repeating rifles may want to check out this British TV programme from the 1970s which features what I think is the Owen Jones Martini-Henry conversion and also some superb tweed and muttonchop whiskers ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-tK3k1qeZjv4.html
not saying you skipped a step, however where do the 303 martini metford and the 303 martini enfield rifles fit into this? I own 1 eah. The metford barreled martini rifles tend to have very worn throats due to modern hotter burning powders. I have an excellent specimen and only load as close to possible black powder 303 rounds.
If you want to see Lee-Metfords in a well made movie look up the film Breaker Morant directed by Bruce Beresford made in 1979. Pretty sure you can find the whole movie here on RU-vid. Great film. And here it is: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-7GS7uwvy57k.html
A dark foreground, a dark rifle, a dark speaker, a dark background and poor lighting. Great combination and ideal for understanding the subject - I don't think!
Interesting Fact about the ammo the lee metford fired it fired black powder 303 that was shaped into a compressed cylinder with hole in the center and was loaded into the brass before the neck was formed. The velocity was 2100 feet per second so almost the same as early smokeless.
When first used with smokless, Nobel's Ballisite the chambers melted and Metford rifleing tore out. The British Comitte for the Modifiaction of Ballasite. and some legal jiggery pokkery over patents, led to CORDITE. Enfeild developed a new rifiling pattern, the rest you know. Balliste blanks were kept for grenade launching, hence you see additional strapping on some SMLE barrels.
@@51WCDodge the strapping is to stop the stock from cracking as the grenade is fired with the butt on the ground. it's nothing to do with the barrel. Wrapping wire round the stock would do nothing to strengthen a barrel.
This rifle by design was better than the French 1886 Lebel with a tubular magazine and magazine cut off. This rifle had was even better, it had a box magazine which was easy to load and a magazine cut off for command fire by an Officer or NCO. The only draw back was it could not be reloaded as fast as a Mauser rifle. The British were smarter taking note from the Mauser for faster reloading in combat and marksmanship from their enemy the South African Boers. The French were clueless about firepower and marksmanship before WWI even though they were an active colonial power. The clip loaded Berthier with 3 rounds was no match for the Lee Metford or the Mauser. By the time when the British adopted the SMLE proper in 1907. The British Army even though it was very small compared to the Continental French and German Armies. The SMLE and better marksmanship training surpassed both armies as superior along with colonial combat experience. The British Army's Expeditionary Force was no match for the modern industrialized German Army with more guns and soldiers armed with M1898 Mausers. Their first battle with the Germans was the death of the British Professional Army. It died with the gallantry renowned of the many of their finest regiments in combat. The German Army was a killing machine with steel spine Prussian discipline. Even with combined British and French effort it is a formidable army to confront. Honestly I think if the British on a whole didn't adopt the SMLE as an infantry rifle. They were not still out gunned reason is both the French and British still used the magazine cut off for volley fires even in trenches. Soldiers entrenched in cover has the advantage of defending as riflemen. When assaulting, infantrymen are rushing forward and rarely have time to fire on both sides. In infantry combat it is to close with the enemy, that is why they also are armed with bayonets for such tactics. Infantry on infantry combat made no difference other than training and luck in combat. The best killers were machinegun and artillery. Thus artillery is named the "King of Battles" in the US Army because artillery was the prime producers of casualties of enemy troops. The "Queen of Battles" is the Infantry as so named in the US and German armies as second to artillery. The newest weapon on the modern battlefield was the machinegun. The British Army well described it as "The Devil's Paint Brush". It was first used by the British in their colonial wars and was an asset for using less soldiers. All sides used machineguns to their advantage. The Germans along with the British used the same Hiram Maxim design, but the Germans came up with tactics in the defense which made them deadly. The British and French copied the Germans resulting in stalemate. When all sides are trained to the same tactics this will result. It becomes a war of attrition. You have leaders who see no solution to victory other than their past glories fighting colonial wars and just put more men into the lines. The beginning of 20th Century combat was bloody and atrocious. It would lead to WWII which combat will see a combination of both stalemate and movement. Later and improvement in rifles which a soldier has better firepower and tactics. Combat will never end as long as human beings have a hatred for one another. It's simple as you might have an asshole neighbor. That's how it will start on the local manner. Sorry folks. Drinking too much and my mind keeps rolling.
Dear god Ian is amazing at explaining history. I HATE the gun porn super tactical asshats online but love mechanics and history= Forgotten weapons is Only gun info i take in. I hate how fetishized guns are in culture today
I have a British Enfield called the "Jungle Carbine." The barrel is shorter for jungle warfare. I got this Enfield in 1959 for 19 dollars. It came in box full of oil and stuff. What job to clean. It is a very fast bolt action rifle for sure. The main thing you must watch out for is loading the ammo. The rimes of the ammo have to be placed right or you cannot load the next round. Keep one rime ahead of the other to make sure you do not jam.
Sometimes I think about the age of these weapons and that they're still fully functional after so many years. I would have no qualms about taking my 1873/4 Colt New 22 out and shooting it. They made stuff to last back in the day.
I think the SMLE was so ugly it was cool, kind of like my old English Ford Escort 2 door wagon. The Lee Metford however, has some really attractive lines. It is a pity they didn't make the hammerless Peabody action with a hopper though, that would have been interesting.
