In this video I explore the difference between native black & white images shot with the Leica Q2 Monochrom with its monochrom sensor versus black & white converted color images coming from the Leica Q2.
Very well explained. But still I think you have to be a very dedicated B&W photographer with extensive night shooting needs to go for the Monochrom. Converting shots from ther Q2 still leaves me the opportunity to apply colour filters in post and denoising with DxO PL4 DeepPrime seems to be working excellently.
You don’t get that tonal separation though. The photographs from monochrom are visibly smoother, as some say have more of this “pop”. But still, totally agree with your statement.
one thing wasn't mentioned also, which was obvious to my eyes, that Monichrom has better gray values. in any ISO, which means better/smoother tonal transition. but useful video thank you very much
Exactly right, for me, better dynamic range is really important, colour sensors lose data because of the Bayer filter hence the brighter and more contrasty image in the converted files,
Wow! Totally blown away from that noise free picture at ISO 25000!! With regards to the converted images looking brighter (to me it seems like they have a higher contrast too), it could be that the “Adobe Monochrome” profile has some slightly different settings from the native Camera monochrome: with my Nikons I generally use the “Camera Flat” profile and if I want to go for Black and White, I slide the saturation to -100. The Adobe Monochrome seems to do more to the image than just removing saturation.
Very interesting test, thank you. I make 99% of my pictures in B&W, so I could easily go with a monochrom camera. But something misses in all the comparisons I've seen, including this (good) one: with a RBV sensor I tweak a lot the B&W with the color mixer, changing the look and contrast of the final image. So how behave these native B&W images when adjusting contrast, highlights and shadows in Capture One or LR? Using a red or a green filter is not always handy, what flexibility for the SOC non-filtered RAW picture? I acknowledge this is more a postprod test, but it is hugely important before going with such a sensor.
yep I agree and that is so much more interesting than just taking two images with ISO 25000. No one in real life will consider doing this on the "normal" camera. People would try to find a way around. Using low ISO but putting in more effort in post. From my POV it is NOT worth the money going for the Mono version.
What I enjoy with my Q2M is you go out to shoot with a whole different mental approach. It makes you look for very different things then if you had a color camera in hand. In a way, it unleashes your creative side to try things much differently than with a color camera.
And I can assure you, you can definitely make the most boring images with the best monochrom camera in the world and you can do the most amazing images with a color camera - but first you need to read „light“ - if you can read light then the monochrom give you images no other camera will give you. On the other hand: you will be disappointed of any camera if you don’t see the light. So if you are getting serious then you should book a good mentor (like the mathphotographer or others ) and get some critic on your images. Cheers
Thanks so much for the comparison. One thing that stands out for me is the capturing experience. When using black and white film the scenes I photograph are different in that I look for textures and shadows. It can be viewed as a limitation, but for me it helps me see beyond color. Sorry if I’m not making sense. I would love to own a Q2 Monochrom.
Probably as expected however the b&w conversion on the q2 color also seemed to increase the contrast , which is maybe also why, as you said, it looked “lighter”. If you increase or decrease the contrast to equalize the two images is the effect quite as dramatic? How much can you compensate for the mono’s superior management of high ISOs at intermediate ISOs e.g 6400, with post processing. Your reviews are excellent, danke.
third time now I watch this video. So convincing the Q2M but will it be enough? could it be better to have the color sliders in a converted color image to work with?
I somehow assumed this would be the outcome but am surprised, seeing the Monochrome creates less noise, Leica has still left both cameras at maximum 2 minutes in low light. The Monochrome should be good for much longer exposures according to your examples. Thanks.
There is a comparison on a French website "les numériques" and the Q2M has a clear advantage over the M10M. But I'll be glad to see a comparison by Math.
I actually looked it up the review you mentioned and used Google translate. The difference between the two cameras on High ISOs are so big, it makes me skeptical of their test methodology. Id love to see what math’s findings are.
@@missbaorestarauntcocktailb9615 Well, the Q2 sensor is more recent so it would make sens, and it shows what the M11 Monochrome capabilities could be 😂
Bei der m10 mono hast du behauptet, die Auflösung sei wie bei einem 120mp Bayer Sensor. Hier sagst du, die Auflösung der beiden Sensoren sei sehr nahe beieinander. Die beiden Aussagen passen nicht zusammen. Ich denke, die erste Behauptung war masslos übertrieben. Was meinst du?
I think the reason is this: 1. The Monochrom Sensor without Beyer Filter delivers a full greyscale from black to white for each pixel. e.g. the furniture is brown, zoom in until you see a 4x4 pixel pattern, they will share the same greyscale, means they all look the same 2. The Beyer Filter of the color version creates a Pattern of 2x green, 1x blue, 1x red. These four pixel must deliver a brown color combined to one new color pixel in the same example at the furniture. Lets jump into a basic color pattern were each of the 4 beyer pixels have full green, blue, red tones. Convert it to monochrome and the 2 green pixels become 100% white, and the red and blue pixels convert to 50% grey. So the green pixels always tend to white (at the lowest green value the convert to 50% grey as the lowest b/w value I think ...sorry not sure about it. Thats why the conversion overall looks brighter but when you go for a perfect 50% grey area like the whine bottle these look similar. Thats also why you have more noise, because green is now white or 50%+ grey. Thats also why you think the resolution of the noise or grain or pixels look 4times higher on the monochom version while they both have 40MP ...or 48 here I dont know the resolution of the Q sensors. ...it is all because the green. Overall lessons learned: shot with a color version and do plain mono conversion you are fine ...adjust from hell and you will fail. PS: Micro Contrast is the same game
The more I use my M10 mono the more I think that a film (and a good developing process) is still the way to go for B/W. These are technicalities which have little to do with photography. Anyway interesting,thank you.
Very interesting comment, thanks Alexander. I have a Leica M4 film camera which I use with B&W films and the "atmosphere" you create with B&W film is very special, I agree. I should say that in general I am a digital shooter, grew up with tech from childhood on. Likely you are better positioned to judge about film vs digital sensor since my "film roll" experience is not as broad as my digital shooting experience.
When you shoot at the same ISO, the Q2 color look more overexposed so you should adjust the exposure to be the same when you compare. Because when you take the exposure more up like you do, there will also be more noise. Im considering the Q2 as my daily camera. But I also got the Hasselblad X1DII and that is also an amazing camera. The problem is, that the Hasselblad is much more sharper in low light and the dynamic range is also much better in the shadows. So I really dont know if its a good idea to spend all those money on a Q2.. because I really think that thew images are more "grainy" from the Q2.. even at low iso when I bring up the shadows... And then there is the monochrome deal.. I also shoot film with my Leica MP. And im just saying that you only get real monochrome shooting film. THAT is magic. And comparing film to digital (Leica Monochrome), your highlights are much more beautiful on film. I compared the M10 monochrome to the new Fuji Across II film, and that film got much more details in the highlights that the M10 mono. You should try that one day 🙂 Best regards from Ryming
You miss the point! The monochrom sensor is not meant for shooting furniture etc! It REALLY comes into it’s own in street photography particularly at night. It’s imagery in these environments is vastly superior to converted colour .DNG files. High ISO performance,no filters before sensor make monochrom cameras the go to for the best B/W photography.
Great explanation of dedicated monochrome vs colour sensor. The Q2 Mono is definitely superior in terms of noise and grain - but the Q2 still holds up well in less than extreme conditions.
Very interesting . Although it wouldn’t change the noise , I would now love to see the tone differences if one use the saturation slider on the Q2 dng instead of the bnw profile , and then maybe a xrite color checker profile monochrome profile and see the tones can come closer to the Q2M ..
What accounts for the Q2 being brighter than the Q2M? Is this camera software or Lightroom software? Lightroom is doing a calculation for perceived luminosity when you convert it to black and white which is not as true to life as the Q2M captured it.
The difference between the two is not worth limiting yourself with a mono camera only. Nobody is going to pixel peep like that. i have been posting converted photos to mono facebook groups for years and nobody knows I am not telling the truth. You simply can't tell.
The best reason to shot color and convert to B&W is the ability to apply black and white color filters in post processing rather than having to carry multiple filters in the field.
I respect you, however, if you have not actually printed your results, you are wrong.The Monochrome far exceeds when printed. That is the reality. No one prints any longer.
Really informative comparison, It may be interesting to compare the Q2 mono with the black and white capabilities of the new SL2-S. I realize the sensors have different megapixel sizes but with the added iso range of the SL2-S it may still be comparable to an extent.
VERY WELL DONE!!! excellently showing the difference between the processors - finally coming to a conclusion that in order to better shoot B&W - need a monoLeica =)
As with so many high-end modern products, the question isn’t whether the two cameras perform differently but whether they help the USER to perform differently.
Weird question. With a b/w camera the light doesn‘t have to travel through a bayer array filter, and thus it‘s higher res and of higher quality. And that‘s it
Great comparison, thanks a lot! I wonder if any other manufacturer will follow the idea of monochrome sensor in their APS-C or FF mirrorless system. I can imagine many people in wedding industry going for it - as many of them already convert to BW
@@GiancarloBenzina Thanks, that’s not often experience with Foveon is found. I have read a lot about Foveon,s fantastic BW photo and even color. Yes it depends on what photographer you are, me as a fine-art taking one picture at a time photographer could maybe live with a Sigma camera. I read somewhere else that printing pictures from Foveon I fantastic. I am in process to buy a new monitor (Benq) and printer soon.
Most of the time I am out of house to shoot :) see many videos on the channel. When I stay inside/studio, I typically have a reason, for instance I do not want light changes in testing or therelike ...
Thank you for this very informative and objective comparison, the well structured video and speech and the effort to stress the essential points for any decision making, if any. Regarding the progressive reduction of exposure time with increasing ISO, it might be needed to maintain the signal-to-noise ratio above an acceptable level. Does the chip of the M10_mono have a lower noise level than the present Q2M one?
Thanks for your positive feedback. Regarding exposure time constraints in dependence on ISO your thoughts are spot on. But, other camera manufacturers don't have such constraints and images are nevertheless good so I wonder for a long time why Leica restricts us here so significantly.
Just my thoughts but is this not adobes interpretation of the raw data from the cameras? Adobe do a great job on the whole but it’s not a fix all solution, does Leica make its own software that has the science of the Leica sensor only built in? This test I’ve done with Fuji files in different software and the results vary quite a lot so although I don’t own a Leica surely this will be the same. Wow though the noise control or lack of needing it since has no colour noise to deal with on the Q2 mono
Thanks for your thoughts, Karl. Leica does not make their own post-processing software but bundle their cameras with Lightroom from Adobe. Typically in their camera boxes you find a voucher for Lightroom. They collaborate with Adobe to get best possible compatibility. To make an example, if you want to use automatic perspective control on a Leica M11, you NEED to use Lightroom to get it to work. So Lightroom is THE software for Leica cameras and Leica and Adobe have a long-year cooperation.
definitely more film-like with the basic b&w conversion and noise/grain effect, rather than monochrom only image. I'd say a much better buy, an ordinary M and convert to b&w. I believe Peter Turney currently shoots M10 (non-monochrom), and Peter gets beautiful b&w images.
Holy crap. I always thought monos are so stupid, but now I'm thinking of getting one! Even at iso 100, the mono had much better color depth, with much natural look.
Question - What if you want to have a natural film grain look, like from a TMX-3200 film. Would it be better to start with the Q2M and add post processes grain? If so, is that just adding noise and it becomes more like the color Q2? Noise has a digital feel. Silver grain is more organic. Sure, I could use a film camera, but let's just say I want that look and the choice is between a Monochrom sensor vs a color sensor. Thanks!
The color sensor has a 2x2 Bayer matrix. Does the monochrome bin 2x2 to keep the “effective” pixels size the same? So 2x2 binning reduces noise, as seen, but the resolution is actually the same?
Coming a bit later to this video but the question is, if you actually need ISO 6400 plus, can you actually do the "work" just in black and white? I mean you probably can but you also would document the event with a colour capable camera. Unless you want to shoot i.e. a concert just in B&W, which I don't think any client will want
I would love to see a comparison of final (edited) pictures of both cameras. Noise reduction (with dxo or topaz NOT lightroom!), contrast and sharpening applied. Or to summarize: Try to squeeze the maximum out of both versions and compare them.
Very good. So it means because of colour rays on sensor pixels on colour sensor cameras, produce this kind of images vs monochrome sensor camera. Even by Fujifilm film simulation feature, we are only simulating b&w image and not real film-b&w image! Right?
Would you have had different results if you had used Capture 1? The noise on the Q2 color reminds me of the wormy effects Lightroom has on Fuji X files.
what you see brighter from the color sensor is the decrease in dynamic range! the image is not differently exposed, the shadows are exactly the same. bur highlights in the monochrome sensor are softer even at base iso
Hi Math thx for this very practical video. The mono is really unbeatable at high iso (the explanation for bayer filter in one of the comments gives some explanation to it). On my side even if I do love b&w I am not sure I can pay more for this - sorry in advance for this rude word - « limited » Camera. If one day I can invest more than 5k euros in one of them it will be the Q color and even if with the conversion the noise appears four times quicker , this noise isn’t too bad for me and reminds me HP5 plus or Tri-x developed for high speed… which is finally not a so bad memory :)
The images were interesting but, we tend to meter for tonality in monochrome so the same metering is not appropriate to both sensors. The mono sensor had better smoother tonal gradation than the colour one and better plasticity as a result.
The game of thrones and the handle show more difference than some of the other comparisons in the first example (1/4 second ISO100), enough that it could be slight focus variation. I'm only not even halfway through the video, but I'm surprised how well the color conversion is holding up, and it seems to have a touch more contrast. Interesting. Edit: High ISO - Wow! That's where a monochrome sensor shines.
Sehr gutes Video, interessant wäre jetzt noch der Vergleich mit einer auf 850nm umgebauten Infrarotkamera. Aber vermutlich kann mit dem Original von Leica nichts mithalten.
The Q2 Monochrom Summilux lens is limiting the sensor, it could be much sharper. Also you missed the higher dynamic range, all you said was just a little darker.
Thanks for your comment and yes on dynamic range, I could have spend more time on it. On the Q2 Summilux lens I am not sure that it really "limits" the sensor except that Summilux lenses are typically a bit less sharp and crisp than Summicron lenses. If you refer to this, then I agree: a Leica Apo-Summicron lens would get even more out of the sensor :)
Great video with a clear result,very entertaining.Am wondering if the reverse could be just as compelling.Using the monochrom Q2 with colour filters to produce a colour shot and comparing the result to the colour sensor of the normal Q2.....Many thanks for all your efforts.
The outcome I would like to see IS: Leica Monochrome images side by side with B&W Conversion of a color camera, where the color layer of the sensor (or whatever) is REMOVED ala Daniel Morrison B&W conversions of a Sony A7Rii which can be done including camera for say $1800. There is no doubt (without even looking) that Leica Monochrome produces better B&W than color camera, with sublime grays that just don’t happen with the regular sensor set up. It’s obvious Leica wouldn’t bother to make monochromes if a converted color image was as good. My question is do I have to spend $5000 up to get those grays? (Bearing in mind, I could self process 8X10 film view camera images and do all kinds of exotic printing that will blow away anything done in digital format)
As said in the video, the B&W conversion yields good outcomes in most of the cases. If you want to push the envelope on B&W, then the monchom sensor is an excellent choice.
If you are not exclusively shooting B&W, go for the Q2 Reporter. If you exclusively shoot B&W and don't care about color at all, the Q2 Mono is the better choice.
Thank you my friend an excellent presentation your video has help me decide on a camera!..also your budget video on the M narrowed my pick to the M over the Q2 mono. Great job!!
Great review. I really appreciate it. A couple of points, the first one is minor, but I think info from Leica and other reviews that I've seen of the Q2C is that the base ISO is 50. I don't know for sure and its a small point. The other thing is while the comparison of sharpness and grain is worthwhile, I thought that the major differences between a native monochrome sensor and post B&W conversion has more to do with luminance and tonality. I can look for differences in your sample images, but could you comment on whether there is any difference in these respects? You may need different subjects with different ranges from black to white. This leads to another question, is the monochrome worth $1,000 US more??? I'd appreciate your comments. Thanks. Geoff
BTW, I’m really curious about whether conversions from the new SL2-S will do better given the improvement in ISO performance. Any thoughts or testing from your side would be highly appreciated!
Excellent analysis! The monochrome sensor is clearly superior in low light situations. It just limits the functionality of the camera a great deal… I see it more like a second camera.
Impressive comparison. Congrats for this video. I have the feeling that at 25.000 ISO the Q2Mono is like if you apply a huge noise reduction on the Q2 converted image. The screw for instance has lost a lot of detail, which is expectable at this level of ISO but what if you reduce noise on the Q2 color converted image?
Thanks for the video. I don't have access to your DNGs, obviously, but I would argue that the increased brightness of the converted Q2 photo may be due not to metering, or sensor gain or sensitivity issues but to the color to b&w conversion process itself. It looks like it has a mild yellow filter applied to it. Which brings up the issue of color filters. What you lose with the Q2 or M10 Monochrom is post-capture control over the color to b&w conversion process. You can get that control back in-camera, but at the (economic, convenience, and time) expense of screwing a filter onto the lens. Filters cost you anywhere from one (for yellow) to two and a half (for red) stops of exposure. So an apples-to-apples IQ comparison would take into account the light loss due to whatever filters a shooter would typically find his or herself using. I am a b&w film (as well as color digital) photographer, and the two media call for different approaches. Film, whether it's b&w or slide or negative, typically requires more thinking and preparation than digital. What I like about the Leica Monochrom cameras is, yeah, sure, the images, but more so a more film-like approach to shooting. What would be really interesting is a Leica M-10D Monochrom.
Yeah exactly. Just clicking the B&W button isn't a realistic comparison because anyone who knows what they are doing is going to do other processing, at the very least adjust the contrast and adjust the B&W conversion color sliders. By shooting on a B&W camera you give up those sliders and loose a HUGE amount of creative control. Even filters at capture do not have the latitude of adjustment the sliders do. And is more expensive, and time consuming, and eats your light, and is more stuff you gotta lug around. A monochrome digital camera+filters is just worse in pretty much every way if you think about it objectively. Unless you enjoy a more hands on analogue process and prefer using the filters and are willing to accept less creative control over the look of the final image to get it. But in that case I say just shoot B&W film if you want to use a film like workflow. Especially if you're also going to the trouble and expense of using B&W M10-D/converted to simulate a film camera as much as possible. I feel like just let the film cameras be film cameras and let the digital cameras be digital cameras.
@@josh885 You gain an enormous amount of light sensitivity, there is no Bayer and low pass filter in front of the sensor. The four RGB pixels are now used for just registering light intensity, he clearly demonstrated that less noise as a result. This is giving you enormous creative opportunities, shooting in low light with fast shutter speeds. You keep playing with your sliders, these Monochrom camera's are the real deal. It is a niche market, not a gimmick.
@@josh885 Not true at all. I shoot a Q and a Q2M. I can assure you that I have full creative control of the Q2M files, including use of the sliders in Lightroom. I lack the use of many presets, but using them is giving creative control to Adobe's software engineers. And, I shoot street t night quite often where the Q2M is king.
