Tuon is a fascinating and frustrating character. I absolutely loved Mat and Tuons courtship it was a joy to read how they both kept subverting each others expectations. But even with confronted with facts that goes directly against her world views she immediately gives a straw-man defense rather than immediately change. That makes her far more human than most characters. I always believed RJ had more story for her and the Seanchan for a sequel series.
Something that stands out to me about Tuon that doesn't get talked about a lot is that late in the series we see something that hasn't happened since the breaking that we know of: a whole congregation of Tuatha'an gathering outside Ebou Dar and *staying*. Why? Because the Seanchan Empire is the only place we see treating them with any kind of fairness. Everywhere else they're shunned/ridiculed/stereotyped/lied about/chased out/attacked/scapegoated without a whole lot of due process being required. Little is ever done about this by Randland's political powers. What does Tuon offer them? Nothing more than she offers everyone else (who isn't a channeler) on this side of the ocean: a relatively straightforward set of rules to follow and the full protection of the Empire for doing so, including the right to live without being assaulted by random villagers. They start going there because equitable treatment is a far better deal than they get in the rest of the world. That reflects on their leadership, which is Tuon. I mean, in general, the Seanchan do some really evil things (the slavery comes to mind). But they're not the Shadow, and Tuon is in a lot of ways a far better ruler than anyone else we see. That the most capable ruler in the series is a Black woman certainly isn't a bad thing. As for Mat... I think there's some pragmatism there. Mat knows he's destined to marry her, and is dealing with someone who is extremely strong and capable, while also being willfully ignorant (like a LOT of people are, because that's a very human trait as you point out). I don't think Mat ever is okay with Damane being a thing, but he's not going to change that overnight, and raging about it risks losing the single strongest military he has with a very low chance of accomplishing anything. He's got plenty of time afterward to try and steer things in a better direction.
Regarding the Tuatha'an, when I read that, it reminded me so much of the story of the Romani people in Euroope... the Romani people often will talk with fondess of communist regimes. Because, while for most people, those regimes were oppressive, for the Romani, they were freedom. They treated the Romani the same as they treated anyone else, they hired them, paid them, gave them places to live. And when the Iron Curtain fell, people went back to treating the Romani as pariahs... nothing in history is every fully black and white. Regarding Mat, my read on it is that he literally just doesn't think about it. He is, in my mind, the guy who will fight for a problem he can easily understand and grasp, but this is beyond him, beyond his experience (as it is for everyone... everyone is utterly confused by the concept of "owning a person" because it is so foreign), and so he doesn't think about it. Except when it actually touches his life directly -- ie: he'll free a damane he knows personally, and ones who can help him escape, but doesn't do anything for the others. He's the "nice white guy" in a movie about racism that does something nice to help his POC friend, but doesn't do anything beyond that, doesn't see the systematic problem. The reason I don't completely hate him for it is because I see this is a part of his immaturity. I see him, later on, being forced to daily deal with the reality of slavery, and eventually he would be spurred onto action.
@@Siansonea Its only briefly mentioned, either when Rand visits before going zen, or sometime after closer to the last battle. But there are a lot of them there, and they tend to stick around. IIRC they are discussing staying permanently as opposed to travelling to find the song. It just really stuck with me as showing something the Seanchan do right that all the nations of Randland do not.
@@LezbiNerdy These are cool thoughts. I think Mat might have also partly categorised Seanchan as a different people and therefore not as much his business. In the same way that an American, for example, might rail against something morally wrong in America but then just go along with that same thing in another country, (maybe Saudi for instance?), Mat might think of everyone on his continent up through the Aeil Waste as his people, but the Seanchan as another people entirely, and it's not his issue. If Seanchan becomes his home as whatever his Prince Consort title is, then that might change. But what Tuon would really need is an alternative structure, not just being told she's wrong. Min might be better at seeing that actually.
I also liked their relationship if you close your eyes to Tuon’s more dictator like qualities. Mat and Tuon were one of the only couples that actually got developed, even thought it’s after they get “married.” That’s why I would have loved a Seanchan novel after the Last Battle. Please make a video detailing your head canon 👀 “The ovaries” LOL
Oh man, my head cannon? I’d have to work it out cause I’m sure if I were to start talking it out with someone it would be FULL of plot holes, lol! It’s just one of those things I’ve bounced around in my head when I can’t sleep or something
Tuon is complicated. She is the only character in the series who feels like a "real" monarch. The rest are all weak or approachable. She feels solid so it's great when she gets rocked, like that scene with egwene or rand. When she tells rand she has a sort of manifest destiny on the continent and he goes that's adorable but I conquered it first without enslaving or killing and you saw how shook she was. I truly think that given time and another power to replace domane she could be convinced to free them. Although part of me would love to see in ten years if she starts to get out of hand rand shows up as a dark Christmas carol version of the future to warn her back to the light. That's my headcanon lol.
I still suspect the conversation between Fortuona and Hawkwing included him explaining to her that he was brainwashed concerning channelers by Ishamael. I was expecting this to be addressed in the sequel where Fortuona and Mat fought to regain control of Seanchan. I think Robert Jordan intentionally left the conversation out of the original story so that some questions would remain to be revealed in the new series.
I also really like Tuon as a character. I find her fascinating. Especially, since I am really interested in how she changes as she gets to know Mat. Not gonna lie, the most interesting relationship in WoT to me has always been Tuon x Mat. Like you, I forgive Mat, because we know RJ had plans for Mat/Tuon that he wasn't able to get to. So I think he purposefully left flaws in them to explore. I might actually be more interested in the Mat/Tuon sequel than the main WoT storyline. Sadly, it'll just have to be head canon.
I have always loved the aspect of WoT's dealings with good/bad/evil. On the surface it is incredibly binary, Dark One vrs Creator, The Dark vrs The Light, The Forsaken vrs the champions of the light etc, but when you as a reader see the second level you get the Children Of The Light, with great ideals and horrible practices, self justified through their zealotry. You have the Aiel, honourable and honest, but will kill any intruder on their lands and with a deep distrust of all Wetlanders and a deeper hatred of the Cairheinien. Aes Sedai who hold dozens of prejudices and much more. But it is when you dig into the individuals that you really get to the truly grey areas. Rand's constant battle with his personal morals vrs "the greater good", Perrin casting his personal morals aside in desperation to protect the woman he loves. Tuon is another great example of this. Much of her moral ambiguity lies in that she truly believes that it is her responsibility to protect the Seanchan Empire and it peoples. Tuon shares a great deal with Elayne in many ways, she truly cares for the Seanchan people, the major problem being that she wasn't raised to see all humans as people. Is she wrong? Definitely! Is her stance understandable given her environment and circumstances? pretty much, yeah. I think we could all agree Tuon could be doing a lot better, but as an individual how many of us could truly claim, that in her position, raised as she was and with all her responsibilities that we wouldn't act the same in her shoes? And that is fucking great character writing!
One thing I always appreciated was that RJ made the most politically powerful person in the books a black woman. The Empress of the Seanchan wields so much influence that even the Dragon Reborn and the Amyrlin Seat have to negotiate with her. As for Tuon herself, I always thought she was a product of her culture, and we don't know the extent of Semirhage's influence on her, but I always liked how cool and dispassionate and unflappable she was. She was ready to die at any moment, she was never a scared little girl. And her relationship with Mat was such a non-romance on both sides that I didn't mind it. They didn't have feelings for one another, they just found themselves brought together by Destiny™ and decided to just go with it. That's a unique approach. And I do love that Tuon is unredeemed at the end, and that she tarnishes Mat's integrity in the process, because that's messy and realistic. If they had a sudden change of heart and freed all the damane and da'covale, that would have seemed super jarring and cheesy. Damane are the foundation of Seanchan power, and you will pry the leash out of Tuon's cold, dead hands. And of course Mat will just shrug and keep playing dice, not understanding what all the fuss is about.
I totally agree. I will say, though, that I think the main reason for making her (and obviously, by default, her mother) black was more about wrenching us (the readers) away from equating slavery in the books with slavery in America (and Canada, and Brazil, and.... you get the idea). In every other physical description of a main character, he is just not nearly as specific and he defaults to white -- not blaming him or anything for this, I think he just wasn't thinking -- ie: he goes out of his way to say that Tairins are dark skinned (in his notes, "dark as an old root), and then makes a point to note that the Tairin we know best has blue eyes. So, you know, white. But... a side effect of this was that yes, the most politically powerful person in the world is a black woman, and that's cool. And I do like how "likeable" she is (maybe that's just me, but I actually like her personality", because it makes her lack of redemption, he refusal to accept the truth of who she is and what that means about the damane, it makes it way more powerful. And... way more true.
I disagree with the assertion that RJ made Tuon black to try to distance the reader from associating Seanchan slavery with American slavery since we’re introduced to Seanchan slavery in book 2 and don’t meet Tuon until book 9 I think. I think we’re supposed to associate Seanchan with the US or at least the Americas as it’s history seems to be influenced by European expansionism and it’s present reflects American expansionism. What I take away from what we see of the Seanchan area of control is an excellent critique of utilitarianism; the majority of citizens are shown to be happier and safer since the seanchan took over; but it comes at the cost of some atrocities most of their subjects are obliged to ignore. RJ may have ditched the racial tension we’re used to, but he certainly replaces it with an allegorical race in channelers and the Seanchsn treat them in a similar manor to the slaves in the American slave trade. More to the point of the video, I agree with your assessment of Tuon; I like her the same way I like Hannibal Lector.
@@LezbiNerdy Way old response, but feel a need to comment on one point you make. The blue eyed Tairin. I always saw WoT as what a world of mixed races would become after 7000 odd years of mixing things up. So while it's rare nowadays for a dark skinned person to have blue eyes (although it isn't impossible) in WoT I always assumed it was just more common. The races we knew today had long since intermingled and created their own new races. For a long time I did always picture Lan as Asian, and tall with blue eyes. Not exactly common in reality, but fit my head cannon of a world truly mixed.
@@melaniev9446 While it is true that Asians, black, and brown people can have blue eyes -- they are vanishingly rare - like, I live in South Korea and I've never once seen Korean with blue eyes, and I've lived here for 8 years. I once saw a dark skinned black woman with blue eyes, and was amazed, and found out later they were contacts. It is very rare, but it is true that it could be a possibility in the future. I will say, though, that even if that were Robert Jordan's intention, I would still be.... frustrated by it. The idea that POCs can be present if they have traits generally associated with white people, traits that virtually no POC fans could aspire to.
I never felt like Mat didn't care, but what could he do? I feel like together Min and Mat could be influential with Tuon. She would dig in her heels if they showed outright opposition to the damane and just slavery in general, but some subtle Aes Sedai level manipulation might work. And it would be kind of hilarious since Min and Mat are some characters who very explicitly do not like Aes Sedai maneuvering, so it would interesting (and probably humorous) to watch them go against their own nature for the greater good.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who likes Tuon (though I'm also often liking questionable problematic characters!) , I think for me it's the fact that we see what Seanchan are like and I'm instantly thinking, how messed up would I be if I grew up in this society? because we might be fooling ourselves if we say we'd totally be champions of freedom in her place! I'm not by any means excusing her actions, just that I feel calling her evil for being brainwashed by her society isn't my thing, furthermore, I am a little more charitable when considering her motivations, I think she isn't holding on to power for her own sake, but rather for the sake of the empire, after she becomes empress in all her POV chapters we see her internal struggle between what she wants and what she thinks she should do to protect the empire, We can also see some of that same struggle with Egeanin, who is older and less sheltered than Tuon, yet she still was conflicted about how to best protect Seanchan, keeping the secret of the Suldam and taking forever to let go of their customs, So maybe, it doesn't even matter if Tuon has a change of heart, because she'll just suppress it and do what's best for the empire in her mind, and what needs to be done is convincing her the empire would survive total emancipation. I also do take into consideration what Avi's future vision said about her, how she was reaching an agreement to free the damane, sure it seems it took her few years but it does show there is hope in the future, that she does see value in gradually changing the system,. So yeah, I''m well aware of how bad her actions are, but like Mat, I'm just like she'll come around eventually so I like her for now, I will not apologize for it!
The thing about Tuon that a lot of people seem to miss, but you nail here, is that she makes sense as a character. Her attitudes, motivations, and actions are all aligned with what we're told about her. This is one of Jordan's great strengths as a writer. He writes these despicable, complex characters that remain - somehow - entirely human ... and at times even likable. I think of Elaida, who I think most readers would agree is unlikable, who is nothing more than a petty tyrant. She's a short-sighted egotist that allows her personal biases to govern her every decision, even unto betraying the Tower ultimately. But she's 100% internally consistent and understandable. Ditto for Tuon. I also like her, even though she often does things that are unequivocally reprehensible.
Yes! Internal consistency is so important -- it is why Elaida is a incredibly unpleasant person, but she doesn't annoy me or bother me to read. She is real and human and her flaws make sense. Gawyn, on the other hand... ugh...
Good people Gawyn follows the authurian knight to it end. We are so past Shakespeare’s hamlet we dont understand Le Morte authur references. If you want to know which authurian legends he mimics I can provide references.
Oh Tuon.... I definitely see your point about their relationship. It has better setup than most relationships, but at the same time.... Tuon... has views that I don't agree with. And I like that RJ realistically showed how people cling to their dogmas, but also really wanted to see her come around. Oh well. Maybe someday we'll get some post WoT content where she finally sees the error of her empire's ways. Maybe.
Completely agree, she is a great character and I hope she will be a great 'love to hate' villain in the TV series. It has been a few years since I read the series through but one thing I really wish had happened to her, was that she felt what it was like to be caught in an a'dam. Only that would have brought her some perspective.
To start with I'll reiterate that I think she's evil. She's fascinating, and entertaining, and honorable in her own culture's standards. But those standards are evil, so she's evil. She's on the side of the light at the Last Battle because she's not stupid enough to feed her entire Empire to Trollocs, but that's kinda a low bar. Tuon is why I love fantasy. She's got such a different world in her head that you have to leave the suburbs to figure out her motivations. She's rational, she's human, and yet she still decides to do a lot of things I'd consider evil. There's a certain other series, which is supposedly set in the Middle Ages, yet is dominated by one family who seem to think they're the children of an honorably retired US Army Sergeant, and one of their main antagonists is a guy whose worse than Renaissance-era-Henry VIII. One of the things I like about her relationship with Mat is they seem like they're made for each-other. Mat spends multiple books flitting from flower to flower with no desire to settle down, soot's pretty clear the woman who marries him is going to have to be extremely unusual. A woman who is smart enough to beat him at games consistently, and unpredictable enough that he can't even figure out the rules half the time (the "Toy" thing? she was trying not to say his name. He didn't realize this until he'd said her name and therefore lost)? That works. It's one of the reasons for my theory that he intended all his characters to be married-up by TG, with a person whose strengths compensate for their weaknesses.
Tuon as a character is a tough nut to crack, but I think this was a pretty excellent analysis of her. I sorely wish RJ had left a draft or something for a Mat and Tuon book because I have no Earthly idea how that relationship fares once it's across the sea lol. I'm surprised you didn't mention the Empress' use of the Crystal Throne Ter Angreal to help keep her authority. I'm sure that it was a crucial tool in shaping the Seanchan culture into one of obedience and loyalty.
Jordan was planning and outrigger novel about Tuon and Mat post Tarmon Gaidon. It could very well be that dismantling the systemic injustice in Seanchan was intended.
Big rant coming: I feel like many people who ride the Tuon hate train don't seem to acknowledge that changing something as deeply ingrained in a culture as slavery/damane cannot be changed overnight. I do believe her attitude has changed due to Mat's influence. We even get a bit of proof that her values and attitude change: in one of the future scenes Avi sees in Rhuidean, we get a " *that* empress was different and better" kind of quote (sorry I can't remember the exact words) so for me that proves that she is definitely on the path of becoming that first push for the wheel of change. As for Mat being "ok" with his wife and her damane, for me it's consistent with his "choosing my battles" attitude. He knows her well enough at that point to know it would take time and effort that they don't have at that point in the story, but he is also aware that she has humanity in her and things can be changed. I hope I'm getting this point across, but anyway, rant over Great video as always!
My head cannon was that as news of both parties being able to channel, the power dynamics in seanchen would change over time to a more equal society i.e feudal esq. Note not 100% sure what a major improvement that would be, given how feudal society worked for peasants.
Mat and Tuon's courting of each other is due to each of their beliefs in prophecy will dictate who they will marry. For Mat, the Finns (to the snakes) tell him he will marry the daughter of the nine moons. He would never had courted Tuon if she were not the daughter of the nine moons. If Selucia's title was she was the daughter of the nine moons (meaning that the title was given to a servant), Mat would have courted Selucia even if Tuon were with Selucia and was Selucia's master. Likewise, Tuon only became interested in Mat because of the foretelling the damane on the ship revealed to Tuon. She saw that Mat's ring met the first part of it. The prophecy is why she was willing to stay near Mat and put up with his courting. Had Tuon first saw the ring on Tylin's son's finger (cannot remember his name), Tuon would have pursued him and not Mat.
I liked their relationship a lot. Probably my favorite if not the favorite in the book. I would say that as a quick aside I got the impression that Mat didn't like the slavery, but by the time he was in a position of power to do something about it, that whole Last Battle thing was bearing down. We really needed a Seanchan reclaiming Seandar side sequel book. Anyway, Tuon herself...she was iciness incarnate I suppose, being bought up in an environment where siblings killing one another was commonplace. Trying to undo that amount of damage to even begin to feel something for Mat in such a short time was remarkable. I was glad she didn't jump to feeling for the damane just like that. Its one thing to feel something personal in your life after such treatment, it is another to feeling for those that you have been indoctrinated to see as animals for a long time. I have faith in Mat though being able to slowly reassert her humanity here. He will need all the luck of the Last Battle though to reclaim Seandar and then fix the Seanchan empire along with Tuon. Would be interested in your head canon though for after the book. I am trying to write a crossover between Wheel of Time and Mass Effect (favorite book series mixed with one of my favorite video game series), and I have been muddling through a few ideas of how to include the timeline of the Seanchan fixing themselves and how radical that should be. I also have a rough idea for the Land of Madmen now that the taint has been cleansed too.
I always loved Tuon, tbh, and so felt the disappointment when she couldn't change at the end. But her not changing was right for the story. Just like the monarchs in RandLand are going to continue to fight; people with enormous power are going to want to keep that power. An "omg how could we have been so wrong" moment would have been entirely too neat and not matched the world RJ built. Also, like you said, Mat, Tuon, and Min seem to be the unfinished story. Why send Min who would NEVER stand for the Seanchan society to be Tuon's magical, untouchable advisor if there wouldn't be change later. Like Perrin seems destined to have more story as a founder of a new kingdom, Mat seems to have more to his story than being a great general. I think this is why there are more taveren than the Dragon, because the story continues after The Last Battle when the Dragon is no more. Finally, I'm not sure that Tuon doesn't realise her system is wrong, but she might honestly believe that her kingdom would fall into decades of chaos with such a sudden change. The damane are the key power of an entire continent. She has been brought up in a place where people are trying to kill her every day her entire life, and she's got it in her head to the core that power is necessary for a stable life, for her, and she projects for her people. Or maybe I just tell myself all this because I want to believe in her potential still. However, as a southerner by birth, it might be that a person who could be decent just never will bend, and others will have to rise against her one day for greater justice. :(
Ahhh! Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that, cause people keep asking... I am fairly certain that if I sat down and thought about it in detail, it would be riddled with plot holes, cause it's just something I play around with when I'm... I dunno, trying to fall asleep or something.
Don’t 2nd guess yourself. We are already in love with your creativity. And your showwomanship. I think in this you will have to bow down before the demands of your fans. But take your time. And don’t worry about plot holes.
I love how kind you are, you have to reiterate that when you say you "love something" within a story you have to clarify that you dont love it in person lol, i love really creepy, paranormal horror elements, and even intense gore in stories, doesnt mean i wanna meet a creepy ghost IRL, and in real life i get anxious around real blood and gore lol
As a character Tuon is one of my favourites of those who were introduced in the later parts of the series. She's smart, capable, strongwilled and funny - for a dictator. But you have to separate her character from the Seanchan system. The Seanchan have the most "advanced" system in Randland. They have far more social mobility than anyone else and the empire is run far more efficiently and fairly. There are checks and balances for anyone aside from the empress and they have the fewest percentage of people without rights. However, that advantage is build on a brutal oppression of a small minority and a draconian and inhumane code of law. One thing you have to consider however is that RJ and later BS put a magnifying glass on the downsides of the Seanchan system which they didn't put on all the other societies. We just didn't get to see in so much detail say how many people starve in Tear unnecessarily because they live in abject poverty due to the High Lords or how messed up the Aiel actually are with their constant tribal warfare, because they were glorified so much. And just like you, in my head canon Mat manages to change the Seanchan system in those outrigger novels which were never written. And that's probably a big reason why the entire slavery and systematic abuse part isn't a deal breaker for me on Tuon. The reason why she subverted expectations and didn't get her redemption in the series is probably because it was intended to happen in the outriggers. Here's to hoping that the TV show becomes so popular someone decides to give them another go. That said back to Tuon. With her a big part is that we only get to see her true self in rare glimpses. She almost never let's down her guard, because she has been in a struggle for survival since she was a little girl from what we can see. It seems in the imperial family you either die or you become empress/emperor and I'd say she came out as good as she possibly could have. As for her romance, it is hands down the best written romance in WOT for me. Mat a notoriously unreliable narrator going up against a woman whose survival has been based upon deceptions and machinations. They match very well. Intellectually and personality wise. She gives him limits and he helps her break out of the mold she has been cast into.
Same thing for me with the Matt post-books head canon dismantling the Seanchan slavery system. Leaving that issue largely unresolved at the end is still my biggest complaint about the series. And yet, yes, I do still enjoy the Matt-Tuon courtship arc.
Love your content, this is my first time coming across your work, first of many I hope. Just want to say that I am of the opinion that Mat's involvement with the Seanchan slavery fiasco is more complex than the face value would lead one to believe. First of all, we have to understand Mat as a character. One of the frequently echoed tenets of Matrim Cauthon is that he does not like responsibility, he hates it. But, if he acquiesces to shoulder a burden, he will honour that burden to the very best of his ability, regardless of how dangerous such a burden is. It's one of the reasons he is so popular I believe. Another core tenet is that Mat will not try to solve a problem that is beyond him, if he can address an issue he will, even to the point of sacrificing a body part as evidenced with his brief time in the tower of Ghenjei. He will not, however, throw his life away for a fruitless cause, regardless of how noble such a cause may seem. This was proved in when he watched a man sink into the ground, and when he was happy to abandon a cursed town to its curse. He does not see himself as a hero, and I do not see him shedding that mindset any time soon. With all these being established, the Seanchan slavery culture is a problem generations in the making, we're talking about a framework millennia in the making. I don't think it would be within Mat's character to tackle such a gargantuan problem, especially when you consider the fact that his only real link to the Seanchan people is his wife, Fortuona, who is a fundamental symbol of said problem. He, for the most part, does not care what the Seanchan do. They are people literally from another half of the world, Mat would be the last if not one of the last to tell them how to live. While it is undoubtedly and unarguably true that slavery to the point of mentally and emotionally shackling people for something that cannot choose is disgusting, I do not see Mat as a candidate to address it. He is a gambler, a warlord, a retired womanizer, and many more. But he is not a hero, at least not when he can avoid it. Plus, let's say he chose to step into the Martin Luther spotlight and fight the system. What would he do, he is an outsider looking in and if not for the merit of his posititon, every Seanchan noble would be more than happy to remind him of that. Galgan respects him because of his brilliance in war, but if Mat were to presume to alter one of the key foundations of the empire, he would be assassinated before dinner time. And he knows that. Dying for a cause that will most likely never shed light, at least not for another ten generations, that does not sound like Mat.
I was constantly disturbed by Tuan when I would relate her to real life. The things I find most reprehensible in real life are reflected in Tuon. Fascism, propaganda, power, and slavery all are evils that, all too often, are embraced by people in real life who justify them or ignore their effects. Jordan did a good job of using elements of the real world to make his villains like the White Cloaks and the Seanchan portray real evil. He didn't even need to have the forsaken or the Dark One.
Ok, I´m late to the party. I just found your chanel as this video showed up as some random sugestion and I just had to watch it as Tuon is one of my favourite characters (a love/hate thing for obvious reasons) of the wheel of time (not sure if she is in the top 5 for me, but if not she is pretty close). And I was pleasantly surprised to find a video about her that is so close to my own thoughts about her. There isn´t a single thing in your video that I disagree with, and that is very rare when it comes to WoT. And I will definitely look through more of your videos when I have the time. One thing I really love how it was written was the dynamic when Min gets involved, and the banter and culture clashes between Tuon, Mat, and Min.
I believe that in the future, the Seanchan will uncollar all the Damane. There was talk that Mat would return to the tower of Ghenji to "right a wrong". What was the "wrong" that needs to be corrected? Well, the a'dam was made in the Towers of Midnight, and it was rumored that Tuon was going to go with Mat to the Tower. Now why would Tuon even think to go with Mat? Remember the ending to 'Memory of Light"? Could it be that Hawkwing (when he saw all the collared damane) was in shock when he saw what the Seanchan turned into? The biggest sign for me was when Mat instructed Bethamin and Seta to learn all they could about channeling from the White Tower. He told them to literally become Aes Sedai and return to Seanchan and teach everyone how channeling actually works. I really wish Sanderson would just wrote the book already!
You actually found one of the reasons this "relationship" doesn't work for me, it's very out of character for Mat from what was established from the get go helping Rand unload the cart when he didn't actually have to he could've walked away, how he saved the kid drowning, rescuing Aludra from Tammuz and company, saving the ladies Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne from the stone etc. It does not make sense for Mat to not only overlook that Tuon is a sadistic slaver but also that she's arrogant nobility who is convinced of her own inherent superiority, Mat the same Mat who felt it was right to take people with their noses in the air such as Elayne down a peg or two that Mat wants to be with not just a noblewoman with one of the wort cases of better than thou that I've ever seen but a malicious, cruel, sadistic slaver at that. For me there is an issue with suspension of disbelief regarding this "relationship" since it just does not make sense to me.
i finished wot yesterday and felt unsatisfied about the end with mat and tuon, i thought her arc would be about realizing what she has been doing her whole life is wrong, and it just ended abruptly (i didnt wont damane to finished overnight because it would be unrealistic, but maybe show that tuon had a change of heart, and hinnt that changes will happen. i actully thougt when i finished the book that theres going to be another about seanchan (why else wouldnt they show the talk between hawkwing and tuon, also i dont think mat would like to have many children that will be trying to assasinate eacg other like tuon had
I always look forward to Tuon chapters. Her and Mat's relationship was always the most believable to me, if not believable at least the most well written. She's also funny.
Think it was the genius of Robert Jordan to create Tuon and make her very true to life as a person of wealth and entitlement. He did a masterful job. Don't forget, her family seems to be full of intrigue and she has survived assassin attempts. All the more for clinging to what to she knows. BTW, you mentioned another book which describes Mat's attempt to tear down the Seanchin brainwashing. Is it in print? What is the name please? I'd love to read it.
How can you despise her? She's been raised from birth to be like this and to see the world like this. Her character grows and changes as she begins to experience the real world. I do love the way she puts Mat ( my fav character) in his place so often.
Its almost as though RJ was pointing out that no one is immune to the environment in which they were raised. If you were raised in a society like the Seanchan, you'd be one. The fact that many of their practices make your skin crawl is due to the society in which you were raised, not an innate sense that "that is wrong". It is only wrong to you, because that is what has been instilled in you and shown to you as "what is right". Its the same reason why people of so many different religions can see all the others, including people that have none, see all the negatives of everything and still go "nope mine is right". We all would love to say that if we grew up in the "evil empire" we'd rebel against their horribleness..... but the vast majority of us likely would not. Its an important concept to think about because it makes you question how many things in the society you find yourself that you excuse because "well we're the right kind of evil".
I do agree that some of this is cultural relativism... some things are just morally wrong. There is no justification for the enslavement of human beings and debasing people. You're right that if I had been a white person in the Southern States during slavery, I probably wouldn't have seen anything wrong with it, but I would have been wrong because well, it is wrong. I'm sure there are things in my culture that are objectively evil (I could even name a few) and some that are only evil by subjective standards, but I just think as humans there are some things we all should agree on. Slavery should be one of those.
@@LezbiNerdy We enslave millions of people in this country and use them for forced labor. It is called prison. We justify why they deserve to be enslaved, and to a very large portion of our society, it is accepted and ignored. "They deserve it" "They are animals that should be treated like that".... I could be talking about Damane, slaves in the 1800s, or prisoners today. The reasoning as to why its accepted is societal. For profit prisons put the lie to "oh well they deserve it". Ask any Indian person about untouchables. They may say its wrong if they live in a western country, but take them back to India and tell them to be friends with one..... good luck. As far as slavery goes, I do think its wrong, but that concept has only existed for the blink of an eye in the timeline of our existence. It has really only been anything more than a debated political thought that its wrong to enslave people for the past 200 years. Prior to that, it was totally accepted in nearly every corner of the planet. It is still accepted in much of Africa, Asia, and South America. More westernized countries tend to spice up the names for it, but it still exists here too, even if we tout it as socially unacceptable. Saying that everyone should agree on it being wrong is a noble goal, but if you removed all the parts of your life that had slave labor somewhere in their chain of custody, you'd be shocked at how much of the world still is run on the backs of people that are not given a choice. Generally speaking, thinking something like slavery is wrong has been a view of only the most privileged people in the entire world. Often ones (like the North in the 1800s), who benefit and profit off the work of slaves even if they don't realize it directly.
@@Gumblethebear I agree with you on prisons and slave labor. These are moral wrongs that I abhor. And I agree that we (all of us) are in many ways complicit. But I'm not going to make a video trying to justify slavery among the Seanchan because things are complicated in our world. Slavery is wrong in reality and slavery (in the world of WoT) is also wrong. I don't care their justification. I'm really not sure what it is you are saying I should do... try and see things from Tuon's perspective so I don't think she is a bad person for being a slaver? I'm not going to do that. Because I don't care about her perspective. It's a moral wrong. It's a moral wrong when we do it and it's a moral wrong when she does it. Her justifications for it make her an interesting character. I can see why she believes it (because it benefits her), but I'm not going to excuse it because "she was brought up that way".
mat dose care about his wives slaves but has enough brains to know how to win a battle if you cant win head on you win by attacking the sides and from behind. if mat cant get tuon to change her mind up front he will cause trouble behind the seances to make her se its wrong. that is my head cannon
He said nothing when she insisted on keeping her slaves in order to fight to literally save the world. He didn't even look askance. Now, my headcannon is that he just doesn't think, he isn't a bad person, but he's the person who would like, do something if a person was say, racist to a friend of his, but doesn't get that that racist action might actually be a symptom of a larger problem. He freed damane he knew personally, and ones he thought could help him escape. My thought is that having to live every day with damane and non-channeling slaves would force him to think about it, and that's when he would take a stance. Cause like, he literally had no reaction... not even a "huh, really? even knowing that if we lose this battle, existence will end, you refuse to give up slavery... wow..."
I wish we could se how her plotline truly ended, because I don't think it did in AMoL. Not only hers, but also Leilwin's, Alivia's... And I've heard there were plans for a sequel about the Seanchan, where I am sure we would eventually either see the end of damane, or some kind of major shift in the Seanchan society. Fortuona could eventually end slavery herself, or essentially become a villain, which would lead Mat to really think about the problem. I too find it sad that he doesn't seem to care about slavery very much. Yeah, she just feels kind of unfininshed to me as for the end of AMoL. A really well-written character, nonetheless: I know it makes sense for her to resist change when she is the one in power. But I still hate her for it; it's not a good excuse. I believe than even if someone is raised for years to believe that a group of people is sub-human, not changing their views for the better makes them, to an extent, evil.
I'm glad you were able to give her a redemption arc in your Head Canon..... I could not however, my finishing of the "turning" was not really kind to her & the Seanchan......... great video......
You are one of the greatest Channels about WoT on RU-vid. Fact. The first time reading you are doing with The Everyday Negroes is great. I relate. You have a Channel talking about WoT so in my mind you are a Channeler Touching The Source. As a White Man I envision The Black Tower and The Temple of Hip Hop as very similar. I might die for this but I imagine Hip Hop like Ice Cube and More Recently 50 Cent to be False Dragons or men going mad at The Black Tower. Peace.
I think it’s important for people to know that your head cannon was probably what RJ intended. We know that he intended to write book(s) post Last Battle about Matt/Tuon returning to Seanchan to put her on the throne as Empress. Hard to see how they win if the other side has Damane and they don’t. Possibly it could be Damane vs Freed Damane but that’s such a difficult transition that I think it more likely that freeing or beginning to free the Damane is an early act of a Tuon reign once actually on the Crystal throne, which is an important coda to the E5 in general and Matt in particular being willing to ally with the Seanchan despite their slavery.
I always saw Tuon as being directly inspired by Emperor Hirohito/Showa of Imperial Japan 🇯🇵, the only Axis leader to remain in power for 64 years without facing the war crimes he committed in WW2. I'm pretty sure Robert Jordan was thinking of UNIT 731 when writing scenes with the Damane and the scene were Rand contemplated destroying the entire Seanchan empire with Balefire is a reference to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Just like with Tuon people are very split on Hirohito; some calling him a war criminal who had the power to stop what was happening while others say the Japanese socialist party (like Semirhage) just used his divine image as a ploy and that he had no true position of power, because he wasn’t allowed to be scene in public in order to maintain the allusion of him being a divine descendant of the Sun Goddess (similar to how Tuon is called Daughter of the Nine Moons).
The Seanchan actually raise the standard of living for everyone who isn't a channeler. I can see parallels with America. People flock to America for a better life, many people start to flock to Seanchan held lands for a better life. As long as you aren't part of that minority, channeler or being very pretty/handsome you have a good chance at a better life. In America, especially before the end of slavery, Blacks, and to a lesser extent Irish, did not have that chance.
@@LezbiNerdy I think you explained your feelings very well. If folks still have problems with it and engender controversy, they were just looking to find fault. I wholeheartedly echo your feelings on the loss of agency. That's the truest definition of human evil, to steel the agency of others, thru either manipulation, coercion, intimidation, or brute force.
Yes! People in power and privilege do not readily give that up. So true! That’s super realistic unfortunately. My head canon is that Mat really does care about the Seanchan slaves and he picks his battles (ha, literally) at that point. I guess I don’t believe he would ever give up on that. He’s playing the long game. Maybe because I would have to not like Mat also if he stopped caring about slavery because he fell in love with Tuon.
My headcanon, quite honestly, is that he never cared... he cared when it was people he knew, but never thought beyond them... in my mind, he’s just immature and doesn’t think about things. But having to be daily confronted with it (in the post-books time) he would come to understand the horror of it.
@@LezbiNerdy he certainly has the immature tendencies. The part about him having to confront it all the time makes sense. Maybe he hasn’t internalized it yet, but given who he is at his core I don’t think he would be actually indifferent to people being treated like animals. Either way the lack of that planned outrigger is a real loss.
I love Tuon. I was surprised that the first thing she did was ask for a punishment because she was harsh with a Damane over a Reading. Growing up as she did, I would have thought she would have thought she was beyond that. However, that she needed the punishment to regain her internal balance, to me, shows her humanity. How frightening would it have been to grow up knowing your brothers and sisters were trying to kill you, agents of the Raven Tower wanted to torture and hang you, and your mother was watching to see what would happen? Of course, I also loved that her nursemaid was an assassin that later became her bodyguard. Especially the part about the amount of gold Selucia is paid when Tuon becomes an adult.
It was realistic. People notice her reaction to the information about suldam, she was shaken. But she hid it and tried to come up with a new angle to justify it. But paradigm shifts don't happen quickly. They take generations. That's why the seanchen couldn't just abolish it in the story. But Mat could be a trigger, along with information about suldam leaking over the borders and exposure to westlqnder culture, which EVENTUALLY leads to reformation and abolition.
Thank you! The animation is just a memoji from my iphone... nothing too technical, I'm afraid! I'm hoping to one day get the software and equipment to, say, have a torso, but for now, I'm working with the bare minimum, lol!
I think those 2 were just resigning to the fact that they were going to get married. If Mat had a choice he probably would have not married Tuon. Mat is definitely not ok with Tuon owning Domani. The main reason that he didn’t go with her in book 11 was due to her treatment of women who can channel.
I don't think Tuon's refusal to change her mind about the Damane was solely about maintaining her own personal power and privilege, but about maintaining the power of the Empire, which I think she wholly believes in as a good and necessary thing. As you said, the beliefs of the Empire are deeply ingrained in Tuon, including the belief of the Empire as essential for peace and prosperity... and she is not entirely wrong. The slavery of damane may be despicable, but the Empire does bring peace and prosperity to the nations in Rand Land that they take over, something that Rand himself often failed to do. But I think, looking into the future of the Wheel of Time, the enslavement of the damane will have to fail as the information about Sul'dam being able to channel spreads, combined with the established power of the White Tower on the continent.
I agree that Tuon's not a character who's... ambiguous in the facts about her, shall we say. She is who she is... the interpretation and the discussion comes from how we relate to who and what she is. Indeed, I think she's so 'definite' in this regard precisely to create that kind of character, one who doesn't provoke controversy over what she is, but what that means to us. So she is still controversial, but not because, as with your Nynaeve example, some people see one thing in her and others another. She's controversial because we reconcile her positive and negative qualities in different ways. I think I land in a similar place to you on this overall... I'd hate Tuon irl, no question about it, and if you ask me whether she's a good person or not, obviously I've got say, no way José. But I adore her as a character; I don't know that I'd describe her as a favourite, necessarily, because I don't cheer and root for her as I do with, well, Mat for instance, but as you say, she's certainly one of the most fascinating in the series. I have several more thoughts, but I'll give those to you on Discord (plug, plug, suggestive eyebrows at everyone who hasn't joined yet...).
With your last statement about tuon being the face of a different kind of evil it actually makes me think of an other evil Mat is tied to. Shadar Logoth.
I'm so curious how show watchers are going to respond to her. I think it might be harder to find her likeable in a visual medium, where you can actually see the results of who she is and what she and her culture do. In particular, people are not going to forget Renna. I think that brings up the question even of what the show itself will do with her, or with her and Mat. The "twist" with her rationalizing away the cognitive dissonance of being a sul'dam does ring true. Specifically, her recasting it as a moral choice -- that's she's still good and valid because she will never choose to channel -- reminds me of how homophobes (including gay ones) cast LGBT-ness as being all about the choice not to "do gay actions" rather than about identity. Her own identity is as a good and moral person, and channelers are not good and moral people, so it's the definition of channeler that has to change, not her understanding of herself or her culture. Mat just kind of depresses me by the end. As much as I like his character, I don't think he's been shown to have what it would take to change Seanchan culture as a total outsider to it. I'm not sure he would even try beyond pushing a bit at the brick wall that is Tuon, and failing. Maybe he would just leave, eventually.
Tuon not having a redemption arc makes complete sense since she's irredeemably awful and has not only done the unforgivable but drew joy and pleasure from it which means she's a sadist. I prefer Tyrant story arcs ending with their comeuppance usually a truly brutal murder (the tyrant traitor of Rome Julius Caesar got a taste of this) although sometimes it's just a riches to rags arc which also has an appeal, for example Tuon being made Damane would fit into that latter category.
I think this is the video I most agree with so far Except for the part that you started disliking Mat here during his travels with Tuon, I already found his arc boring in Ebou Dar
So you said Tuon grew up in a fascist society and I am actually curious if this is true? Sure the society she grew up in was toxic but fascist is a pretty strong claim. Umberto Eco's 14 Points of Fascism X 1)The cult of tradition 2)The rejection of modernism - “The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.” 3)The cult of action for action’s sake - “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation… The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.” 4)Rejection of analytical criticism - “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.” X 5)Rejection of diversity - “Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.” 6)Appeal to individual or social frustration- “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old ‘proletarians’ are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.” X 7)Obsession with a plot - “To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism… the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies… The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside” 8)Self-humiliation - “The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies… However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” X 9)Life is lived for struggle - “pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. X 10)Popular elitism - “Every citizen belongs to the best people of the world, the members of the party are the best among the citizens… But there cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader… knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses… every subordinate leader despises his own underlings, and each of them despises his inferiors.” X 11)Encouragement of individual action / heroism - “In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm.” 12)Disdain for women and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits X 13)Selective populism via the concept of “the People” - “the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction… Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.” 14)Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak - “we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take [an] apparently innocent form.” I think you could make an argument for 1,5,7,9,10,11, and 13. You could make a strong argument for 1,5,7, 10, and 13. The weaker arguments I would say are 9 and 11. I don't think calling her society is either an accurate description or productive. If you want to make the argument that the sanchen are a fascist or proto-fascist society then I would genuinely be interested in that argument and actually think it might make an interesting video. But please for the love of the left do not throw around the term fascist. That term has a specific socio-political meaning and it does actual harm to water it down.
It's not fascist, it's far more authoritarian than even a fascist state. It's an absolute monarchy, where all power is derived from proximity to the throne and the single family that sits on it. It's also a slave society where a large percentage of the population are literally property. Real world parallels would be imperial China or the ancient Persian empire.
@@davidjones272 Thank you for your reply. That was actually the point I was making. The argument could be made that it is proton-fascism but we need to make sure that when we are using the term fascist we are actually identifying the thing correctly. Watering down the term by misapplying it only helps the fascists hide. I am against helping them hide.
I made a whole video about her, but yeah, I think she is overcompensating because when she was Wisdom, everyone thought she was too young and wouldn't listen to her unless she barreled over them...
in much the same way that my conservative, fundamentalist parents have been personally supportive of my transition, voted for trump twice, and always manage to be shocked when their party comes through on their rhetoric to pass legislation that strips my rights as a human subject to legit harm
Yeah, Tuon is a character that evokes multiple emotions. She is fascinating, but she is also abhorrent. Her society is show as both positive and negative. Her society is twisted and horrible in many ways with the slavery and the attitudes that some people have more value than others. And for the fact that forsaken influence has perverted her society in horrible ways. Tuon is still interesting and I love the segments of her and Matt's story...one of my all-time favorite archs. But she is extremely myopic, refusing to see the truth. In other words she is totally true to human nature. Self-delusion is a staple of our race.
