As usual, you're spot on the money Sam, I'm an Li-s holder and completely concur with your insightful anaysis which in all things EV's is absolutelly world class if not world leading. I too have been on the journey with a loved one with stage 4 cancer and know what you are going through, my thoughts are with your wife and family
Sam, your channel change my life and my wordview (I bought Tesla shares, and I'm much more happy and optimistic about the future). Thank you! May you and you family find health, peace and love, wherever you are! Cheers from Brazil! 🇧🇷 ♥ 🇦🇺
Sam, I know you don't have an engineering background but there are a couple of things that need to be clarified. A battery pack of 77 kWh stores the same amount of energy whether it's plain NMC Li-ion or Li-S because 77kWh is a measure of the energy stored in the battery. Also, density can be measured per unit mass (/kg) or unit volume (/litre). With regards to EVs it's important that a battery weighs (has a little mass) as little as possible and occupies as little volume as possible. Battery density should be quoted per unit volume and per unit mass but it is not incorrect to quote just one. If the energy density per unit mass is not quoted then I would suspect that it is quite high which may make the battery unusable in an EV.
Yeah I think what he was getting at was that if you had a 77kwh Lfp battery you would only need a 50kw or so Lis battery to get the same range. The point you make about mass is critical, any ideas about the likely unit of mass?
That was my first thought but when I listened again he was talking about a battery pack the same size (i.e. length, width, height) as a conventional 77kWh pack. To be pedantic, density is per unit volume. Specific energy is per unit mass. These terms are mixed up so often, it's not worth worrying about. If someone quotes Wh/L, we all know what they are talking about regardless of the terminology. Same with Wh/kg.
@@briancampbell179 yeah I recall he said same size but increased range, anyhow moving along, I’m interested to know your thoughts on the likely wh/Kg for Lis?
Думаю Сэм оговорился, он имел ввиду, что размер и вес аккумулятора 77кВтч с новыми ячейками= по размеру и весу с аккумулятором 40кВтч нынешнеми ячейками.
If they’re able to commercialize this it’d be a real leap forward. There are enough of these fantabulous advances that I’m thinking at least one is going to be capable of making it through to become a reality for mass manufactured automobiles and other similar transportation applications, including possibly light aircraft. Long-haul commercial passenger flights are still far out of reach but the synth-fuels being produced now can quite possibly fill that need.
And we keep hearing this BS. LOL! There are HUNDREDS of new battery "breakthroughs" and good luck dealing with China. Because China isn`t making them. And now, thanks to the people trying to kill 90% of the population, EVERYTHING IS MADE THERE by slavery.
Some people live in hot climates and have 20 acres to mow and thick brush that needs to be cut. Lithium ion batteries cost FAR MORE than gas over time. And I know because I use a ripoff electric mower and can`t afford to replace the batteries. So guess what? My mower is going to the landfill along with the useless dead batteries and the useless charger because I refuse to pay China 80 bucks each for two batteries that failed after less than a year. Why do all of you lie this way?
@@baneverything5580 I like the small tools and have just spent quite a bit on a pole saw, trimmer and whipper snipper. I also have a very small pruning chainsaw which has been amazing and would have a small battery chainsaw but for anything bigger I would be still using fuel powered. The mowers I have seen are plastic bodied toys and they would last long doing what I do with them.
@@baneverything5580 You are not mowing 20acres with a mower with 2x $80 batteries. Less than a year? That's BS. My cheap 36V Ozito mower has 3yr replacement warranty on the batteries and charger and 5yrs on the whole mower.
Sam, a 40kWh battery pack holds 40kWh of energy regardless of the battery chemistry! Increasing volumetric or gravimetric density allows that quantity of energy to be held in a smaller or lighter physical package. I'm sure you know this but you have made this slip-up before, so I thought I should mention it as it might confuse some people. Otherwise, keep up your great work!
He's talking about the form factor. If you take a 40kWh pack and swap out the cells for a higher density, you get more capacity in the same package. For example, if you go from LFP to Li-S, you can basically double the capacity as a drop-in replacement.
So glad I stumbled across this channel. Thanks Sam; it was really informative. I am a small shareholder in Li-S, but recognise it's a long term proposition. I have also been very sceptical of the claims re EV's and the planet, but what you're saying makes a lot of sense. Very well done.
Terminology: energy density = energy per litre, specific energy = energy per kilo. Of course, you can use 'volumetric density' or 'gravimetric density' instead. Energy for batteries is typically given in 'Wh' = 'Watt-Hours' (NOT 'Watt'). 'Watt' is the unit of power, not energy.
He gets told this in practically every battery video, he knows full well that using 'watt' is incorrect but he does not care. Save your breath, it's pointless !
Thanks Sam, good news, but we will need to wait and see. High capacity lithium batteries have been around for a while, but the issue is safety and longevity. If they can nail these together with high capacity they could well be on to something.
Great volumetric and mass energy density, but what about POWER density? Most important, CYCLE LIFE?? It can be a bit more expensive, if the capacity and cycle life can compensate for the purchase cost, giving a superior, or at least competitive, LCOS. (Levelized Cost Of Storage) How many volts nominal per cell?
400 Wh/kg is good, and the fact that they are using sulfur is great, thanks for this info. But Sam, please use the "watt-hour" (Wh) term when discussing energy density (e.g. 540 Wh/l or 400 Wh/kg). Watts (W) refer to instantaneous power (like the HP or KW figures for an ICE motor), while watt-hours (or Amp-hours for lead-acid car batteries) refer to the energy contained in a battery (like the energy in a gas tank for ICE car, which we describe by volume not energy, further confusing us... 1 liter of gas has about 8.9 kWh or 8,900 Wh of energy). So in the Li-S case you mentioned a one liter battery has 540 Wh of energy, so if this energy was discharged over time to a 60 W light bulb, it would run for 9 hours (60Wx9h=540Wh), or for a 90 watt lcd screen it would run for 6 hours (90Wx6h=540Wh). It is quite confusing for people who aren't engineering types to understand this difference as in common parlance "power" and "energy" terms are commonly interchanged. You are right though, Wh/kg is more commonly used as an energy density term for EVs. For most (not all) personal transportation modes weight is more important than volume, but not always. Think of bicycles, motorcycles, cars, planes, ships, trains, etc. Weight is a much more important factor for motorcycles or airplanes than ships or trains. Hope this helps.
I like your channel and visit it every day, but please atop saying watts instead of watt-hours as an energy measure. Watts-hours are energy measures. Watts are time rates of energy delivery. For comparison, LFP volumetric energy density is around 325 watt-hours per litre.
I think he has been corrected literally hundreds of times in the comments section of these videos over the years, and yet he doesn't care or doesn't understand what he is saying.
It's still in the lab though. There are 1000s of battery prototypes sitting in labs all over the world like this. Mass manufacturing at scale and at an affordable price is a completely different proposition altogether.
He casually threw away the most expensive problematic portion... Boron NANOTUBES... as if this isn't even to be mentioned as THE key to everything. Anything Nanotubes = horrifically expensive.
1:10 Energy density is measured in *kW/L,* it is the energy per volume. So they are correct to call it energy density and measure it in *litres.* *kW/kg* is specific energy also know as gravimetric energy *density.* The alternative name is probably what causes a lot of people to confuse the two different properties.
There's always a catch, isn't there. It is not uncommon for new battery technologies to be announced that massively improve one characteristic but comes at a great cost to others. Unfortunately, you need to tick a lot of boxes to have a viable product. For example, I recall hearing many years ago about a battery technology that was compact and had an extraordinarily fast recharge time but was stuffed after 3 recharges.
Exactly. Batteries for mobile use (like cars and trucks) need density, reasonable cost, reasonable recharge time, decent discharge rates, safety, reasonable charge cycle life, and calendar life. Many batteries do many of those things well, but getting them ALL in one package is difficult. I still think we're a decade away from a true "game changer" tech that will replace lithium phosphate cells in cars.
Exxon has inked a deal with a chemicals producer for the development of lithium resources in Arkansas as it ventures further into the battery metal, Reuters has reported. The news follows last month’s report by the Wall Street Journal that Exxon had acquired the rights to a lithium deposit in Arkansas, for which it paid $100 million. The report quoted unnamed sources as saying the supermajor could begin drilling at the deposit in the next few months. According to the previous owner of the assets, they may contain up to 4 million tons of lithium carbonate equivalent, which the WSJ said was enough for 50 million EV batteries.
Really? If they are setting their minds at destroying white culture and heritage, and simultaneously destroying our economies, well yeah, they are close to achieving that!!
Well, obviously, that's all tantalizing and promising. However, the number that concerns me most is 20 - as in twenty layers to the battery internal electrolyte structure. That sounds like an enormous challenge in terms of any version of mass production, even just for supercars and airplanes
The most important feature in my view is ability to recharge and discharge quickly without having a short lifetime. LTO cells are the ones today that do this, they just have too much weight compared to all the other chemistries. If they can produce LTO performance with even less weight than the existing car batteries, they will have a winner. As usual, battery breakthrough press releases mean nothing until they can show it working in the real world and competitive cost vs lab results.
I like your series and subscribed. Please periodically evaluate different battery categories and their updated capabilities. Li, Li-Sulfer, sodium ion, solid-state, hybrid solid-state, etc. The progress is moving quickly, and it's difficult to keep track of the progress of all of them.
Sam, you are used to hearing energy density in terms of gravimetric density, but volumetric density is the second half of energy density. In reality there are 4 important metrics for batteries: gravimetric and volumetric ENERGY density, and gravimetric and volumetric POWER density. Energy density refers to the total battery storage capacity in kW hours (75kWhrs, 80kWhrs, 100kWhrs, etc), while the power density is how many kWatts the battery can deliver at any moment (250kW, 400kW, 700kW, 900kW, etc).
Charge discharge speed, cycle life, temperature capabilities, kwh pr. Kg, shelf life, manufacture price, real live test and big scale manufacturing before I am going to be a believer.
Sam, if two battery packs of different densities both have 77 kW•h of capacity, they would have approximately the same range. The advantage of the higher density pack would be that it's physically smaller and probably lighter - therefore generating less tire friction, and could be installed in a small car.
it sounds like a nice improvement, but i'll wait to hear the cost of it. second, man, i keep hearing about different battery chemistrys. really need a big chart to look up all the different info on them. and going forward, it would be nice if i/we could buy different battery cell types and be able to swap them out. instead of just, "being stuck with whatever my brand has". like buying a ryobi electric lawnmower system, and then that's the only battery you buy and can insert into it. really lame.
Having cars driven by an electric motor and reduction gearbox makes good sense. I’ll definitely buy one myself when charging stations are as abundant as normal service stations and a full charge takes the same time as filling up a normal car with petrol or diesel. But what do we do with scores of millions of 500kg toxic batteries when they eventually expire. The things I’m reading about recycling don’t sound very positive. Very expensive, labour intensive and significant energy required. I think we need to get the recycling process properly established. Perhaps a legislated mandatory requirement for each car company to take their battery back when it expires and take ownership of the recycling process. Ideas anyone…?
The problem of Li S batteries is that the sulfur gets depleted very quickly. In practice they only support 100 charging cycles. Cars need at least 1500 to be commercially viable. I think that's why they are talking about aviation instead. Hope they keep improving the technology...
Great breakthrough I hope we have a great breakthrough with politicians, & some forward thinking to upgrade the electricity grid to handle the numerous electric vehicles in the near future.
I understand the mass confusion over energy density (watt-hours/liter) vs. Specific Energy Density or Gravimetric Energy Density (watt-hours/kilogram) vs. Power Density (watts/liter) and Specific or Gravimetric Power Density (watts/kilogram), basically because it is fed by misstatements of the uninformed general media that really doesn't care enough to appreciate the profound differences in these key battery performance metrics. Along with Sam, we all can and need to do better at communicating the important differences. The most important differences in these metrics is that battery weight and volume are both important bases for comparing a battery type's energy and/or power characteristics. The reason volume is often more important than weight is because a mobile application like a car or truck is constrained in the amount of space available for fitting the battery into the vehicle. Battery weight is likewise important primarily because the heavier the battery is, the greater is the amount of power needed to accelerate the vehicle, with this needed power increasing almost proportionately, increasing vehicle cost, particularly the size and cost of the propulsion motor and its associated power electronics. Energy consumption also increases somewhat with battery weight, though not as much as one might expect, due to energy recovery with regenerative braking. So, when you see an Energy Density number of 540 watt-hours/liter (wh/l), one needs to compare it to the equivalent metric for other batteries, such as Tesla's 4680. The usable energy in Tesla's 4680 cell has been estimated at 96 to 99 watt-hours. The cylindrical volume that this 4680 cell occupies is computed simply as pi x radius-squared x height = 3.14159 x (46/2) x (46/2) mm-squared x 80 mm = 132,952 mm-cubed = 0.132952 liters. So, dividing 96 watt-hours of energy by 0.132952 liters of volume gives us 722 watt-hours per liter. Therefore, the Energy Density of the current Tesla 4680 Li-ion cell is at least 722 watt-hours/liter and thus clearly exceeds the 540 wh/liter Energy Density of the Australian Lithium-Sulfur cell being highlighted in this video by Sam. Hopefully, Sam and the rest of us can begin to at least attempt to compare the alternative battery chemistries on something approaching an apples-4-apples basis.
Volumetric energy density is not all that important as compared to Gravimetric energy density. Mass is all important. Your car is mostly an empty box full of air. The area in the frunk, and under the seats can also be used for more cells if needed. There is more than enough space for the battery already. But, lighter cells are the holygrail.
@@nordic5490 The reason your car, van or truck are primarily air is to leave room for passengers and cargo. Preserving this internal space is a top priority for all vehicle designers. Lighter batteries are preferred within the same available space, of course, but the primary constraint for mobility applications is actually space rather than weight. That's why the wh/l metric is actually more important than the wh/kg metric, for packaging the battery within the vehicle. The frunk and the sub-trunk of the Model Y are both examples of the importance of preserving space. You can stick a spare tire in either one if you want, but the value of preserving this space for cargo for most people is greater than filling either of these spaces with a spare tire or more batteries.
Love these stories, knowing some might not get up, but the future looks good.Only think is why would you buy an electric car now(if you don't really need a new car)?. Just wait till the tech matures in the next decade..Can you imagine what electric cars could do in 2035.
This could reasonably allow someone to drive all day, then recharge in the evening. I think this "road trip" capability is the finish line for batteries. The aviation possibility is mind blowing.
I'm all for Aussie innovation, however LiS technology has been around for decades - it suffers from polysulphide shuttle which results in rapid capacity reduction due to anode degradation. If Li-S Energy have been able to mitigate this with BNNT and Li nano mesh, lets see battery performance data in the public domain. Until then I suspect the Li-S Energy share price will continue to languish at $0.28 AUD, down from $2.40 AUD in October 2021.
The theme parks are actually on the Gold Coast - that's a different city to Brisbane, about 70kms south. Brisbane is better known as the capital city of Queensland. I lived in Brisbane for 7 years but now live on the Gold Coast - a much nicer place for lifestyle - better beaches, less traffic, but yes Brisbane is our neighbour and there isn't much countryside between the 2 cities as suburban sprawl has made the edges of the cities overlap.
There are several other crucial factors besides wh/l and all of those lab made batteries fail in one or in many. Those factors are internal resistance, charge and discharge rates, expansion rates, longevity etc..
Volumetric energy density is not all that important as compared to Gravimetric energy density. Mass is all important. Your car is mostly an empty box full of air. The area in the frunk, and under the seats can also be used for more cells if needed. There is more than enough space for the battery already. But, lighter cells are the holygrail.
The next-level of developing better batteries is: 1. the use of layers 2. the use of Sulpher- compounds (Toyota's secret battery is also using Sulpher/ improves E-density and charging speed). The Austrialian company has patented a compound in their battery: I do not think that there are no better alternatives. SO, I ADVICE THEM TO SELL THE PATENT QUICKLY TO CATL...... otherwise you will end empty handed in the long term.
the battery cells from LG Chem in the VW ID cars have 650Wh/l. btw the unit Watts per liter does not exist because Watts is power and not energy. the right unit for energy per volume is WATT HOURS PER LITER NOT WATTS PER LITER !!!!!!!!!
The lifetime of these cells has not been mentioned, I expect a problem here, the next challenge will be to solve the volume change when charging and discharging sulphur based cells, unfortunately large scale production and use in vehicles is still a long way off.
At 1:12 using liters or kg are in fact two different and both valid measurements. I always have to look them up, volumetric energy density is based on volume, so liters, specific energy... Gravimetric is based on weight... Wait, at 3:30 you do mention the two... Anyway.. sigh.
Sam, you keep confusing Watts (W) and Watt-Hours (WHr). Watts are a measure of Power and Watt-Hours are a measure of Energy. When talking about the energy storage of an EV battery we usually are interested in Watt-Hours per unit weight, not unit volume. Therefore, you should be talking about Watt-Hrs/Kilogram.
If these batteries are superior when set on fire, being easier to put out and generating less toxic smoke then perhaps would be willing to buy them for the privilege of using them where lithium-ion batteries are flat out prohibited. Considering the recent fire on that ship carrying electric vehicles legislation in this area may just be one disaster away.
Confusing energy density and capacity? A battery of increased energy density but the same capacity won't give greater range, it just means the battery can be physically smaller, either in size or weight, to give the same range.
In terms of energy density, you keep confusing Watts/litre and Watt-hours/litre. Watts/litre is meaningless in terms of energy density. Watts is a unit of power, not energy. Watt-hours is a unit of energy, therefore Watt-hours per litre or per kilogram is the proper term to use when talking about energy density.
In high performance applications, power density is a very significant value. That's what determines maximum charge rate, as well as available horsepower. It's all about acceleration!
@@HygienistDentist So did I. It was still wrong, and I've seen him make the same mistake in other posts. Don't get me wrong. I like The Viking and I enjoy his channel. I was just trying to point out an error of which he may not have been aware.
CATL's newly commercialised condensed battery tech have 500kw per KG, unless they can commercialise this soon and is competitive, it will be difficult for it to move too far forward.
i just keep thinking about teslas turbine. he said it was his most important invention. he invented it to solve the weight problem associated with powered flight. what am i missing? i've seen the things rotate like greased lightning. so why not use them? is it a matter of compressed air? do they need compressed air? on another subject are these new batteries you talk about not subject to the icy cold? it gets plenty icy cold way up high.
You can't just convert it easily, because Wh/L compared to Wh/kg can vary a lot based on the materials it's made of. But he does mention later in the video that they are saying it's 400 wh/kg. Which he should have lead with, because that's more impressive than 540 wh/L, as there's already easily available Li-on batteries in the 630 wh/L range.
@@patrickbeck4062 no, you can not convert whr/L to whr/kg. Volumetric energy density is not all that important as compared to Gravimetric energy density. Mass is all important. Your car is mostly an empty box full of air. The area in the frunk, and under the seats can also be used for more cells if needed. There is more than enough space for the battery already. But, lighter cells are the holygrail.
Yeah that's not gonna happen any time soon . I like to believe they got all the incredibly dfficult tasks of making LI-S battery . But unfortunatley , I don't . Reasons : if they do small cells fo drones and all types of small applications . means to me that the Thermal expansion is still an issue . Traditional EV batteries has thoes problems . LI-S If i remember correctly it expands 3 times its volume during the charge/dischage cycle . so yeah just by that it means its gonna take some time .... not to mention its sabilty under very high loads . Id personaly consider Quite an achievement if they managed to make the sulfur more conductive . Like this is one of those "to good to be true " things . They just need to back up their claims with some consitant data .
Game changer game changer pyrotechnic explosion party favors drop from ceiling as siren blade……. Gudday mate jus when some people find out wtf lfp is (announcers voice) “ Aaaannnnd in this corner th new battery champion of the world MP3 “
I truly hope these new Li-S batteries are CHEAPER for EV's sake. I like the idea of an ev, but I''m holding off for the next generation of battery that cannot explode, is eco-friendly, has this kind of energy density (~490 wh/k), charges extremely fast and is very recyclable.
At this point EVs are far less likely than ICE vehicles to catch fire, and only ICE vehicles with petrol/gasoline tanks "explode." At this point lithium battery recycling is very profitable. Lithium battery recyclers currently make over $700 per tonne in profit selling the metals and black mass from recycled lithium batteries. While batteries do require materials, they are far less impactful than the oil mining industry not counting the CO2 produced when burning oil, and once all vehicles are electric, it is expected that the majority of battery materials for autos will come from recycled batteries. I have never been able to recycle a single gallon of gasoline burned in any vehicle I have owned, or the other 8 gallons of oil used to deliver that gallon of energy to my wheels.
Even the worse lithium batteries installed in cars were less likely to catch fire (they don't explode) than any gas car - ten times less likely at least. If that's your concern, get rid of your gas cars now. The latest gen batteries may be 100X less likely to catch fire than a gas car.
Your selling every one just hope only here, all EV are a very long way of being perfect, can be years or decades before there excepted as the norm. lets look more in what we can get best Now !.Or your make every one Crazy as on this roundabout.😵💫
When it comes to battery technology I am very sceptic. These new `groundbreaking` batteries come up at least once a month since more than a decade now and none of them has ever seen any widespread use yet. A little sus, eh?
Just Wrap this Game changer up.and put a Bow on it and stack it near all the other Game.changers around the 🎄 🎁 and.on Christmas I'll have something to Open.
They are very different commentators - SMR is more focused on Tesla and is more aggressive in his style. Sam is more of a broad-based electric car enthusiast. Also, I don't think Viking is into collabs. I did see one video where SMR was on one of the American EV channels, but Viking pretty much does his own thing.
yeah it's definitely not 540 wh/kg I guess he is reading the company press release. In the video, he does mention the difference. 540 wh/kg would be a major breakthrough
@@jonathanfields4ever Isn't high end Lithium batteries for EVs around 250 Wh/kg, so 400 Wh/kg would be an improvement. I would expect about 63% lighter. 60kWh battery roughly drop 90kg in weight (whole model 3 could go from 1700kg to 1610 kg) .
Love the channel, but I have to call bullshit on your claim "Electric lawnmowers are twice as powerful than ICE lawnmowers". Even the low-end ICE lawnmowers have 3,5 hp engines. Show me an electric push lawnmower with more than 7 hp (>5000 W) of power!
If you are stuffing the battery into something small size matters. Would you like your cordless drill to last twice as long between battery changes? The battery cannot be too big or too heavy or people will just use smaller lighter ones and put up with more changes to avoid ridiculously heavy our weirdly chunky tools.
Yeah I understand that, but as a general guide I thought wh/kg would have been adequate, but understand that volume ( wh/litre ) plays a part, as battery technologies differ in their internal structure. But for the average Joe viewer out there, I think wh/kg seems adequate in most cases. Anyway it's neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things. Anything around 400 wh/kg is seen as a significant breakthrough.
Lawn mower comments tell half the story of electric lawnmowers. Power is only 1 metric, and it’s not the most important one. I have a John Deere gas mower and an EGO electric mower. The JD is a far better mower. It’s all about blade tip speed. The EGO has far slower tip speed to help extend battery run time. Problem is the slower tip speed generates FAR LESS suction. So if you use your mower in the fall to ‘vacuum up’ leaves and twigs and damp or wet grass, the EGO is an incapable choice. But under perfect mowing conditions the EGO works great. I rarely have perfect mowing conditions!
