This brings back memories to me, though not for the reason you'd expect. Back in the 1982, when I was just in kindergarten, there was this old department store which we'd regularly walk past when our teacher would take the kindergarteners out for walks. I loved this place, even though it had long since been shuttered, because in the window of it remained an old display. That display being a vintage Lionel train set, large oval of track, and several cars. The display must have been there from before the store closed, and sure the cars were all sun faded... but I loved looking at that static set and dreaming. At some point, maybe two or three years later, the building sold and I was saddened, because it was announced that they were going to clean the building out. My father took a day off from work to head over there and talk to the owner, and purchased that old train set for me. He spent some time making sure everything would run, and then gifted me the train set on my birthday. I still have that thing floating around somewhere, though I don't run it like I once did. Still brings back fond memories to see it.
The movie is set no later than 1940. There's no mention of WW 2, and the decoder ring is the 1940 issue. I realize they used postwar trains but since they are not the focus of the movie some artistic license was used. And most movies have anachronisms of one kind or another. The producers figure only a small portion of the audience are going to notice.
I think you're right. Another clue are The Wizard Of Oz characters in the department store. Oz premiered in August of 1939, and would have been a contemporary subject for kids in the winter of 1939/1940. It was not a commercial hit at the time, so it's unlikely that the characters would have appeared at a later date.
My favorite Christmas movie! May I also point out the fire truck that arrived at the school yard when 'Flick' fell for the triple dog dare, is a 1937 Ford American LaFrance. How do I know? Because my Volunteer Fire Dept still owns an identical fire pumper that was purchased new in 1937 from the (now defunct) American LaFrance Corp. only a few miles away in Elmira, New York! It is a 'one year only grill design by Ford,' and I helped in it's restoration in the late 1990's.
Boy this video sure brings back memories of Christmas as a kid in the middle to late 1950's wishing Santa to place any Marx or Lionel trains or accessories under the tree!! Watching the Christmas display through Bowring's, & Ayres's department store windows just a few doors apart on Water Street when with my mother shopping WAS A REAL THRILL!!. Sadly both stores long gone. These were the days LONG BEFORE shopping malls.
Wow, you are quite the Lionel detective. This was quite an undertaking by you. Yes, it was extremely enjoyable. In conclusion the trains were not all of correct date to support the 1940 decoder ring as one mentioned. The 1937 Oldsmobile 4 door Touring Sedan being 3 years old would support the 1940 ring. Average people would commonly have a 3 or 4 year old used car. I watch Christmas Story with “Little Ralphy” every year along with Chevy Chase’s Christmas movie. Thank you for sharing.
I have always liked this film as a time machine, despite its anachronisms. Although my father was born later, I imagine things were somewhat similar in his childhood, and The Old Man reminds me of what I can recall about my grandfather who passed away when I was very young.
I always thought that the movie was set in the late 1940's. But further research indicates that it is set in 1939-1940. Hence, the Hiawatha passenger train would be accurate for the display but the freight train definitely would not.
I have been watching an unedited first chapter of this film again.. and now believe there may be a 2nd freight train. As the trains first come into view, the Berkshire moves from left to right on the upper level, and enters a tunnel portal just above the red wagon wheel. As we watch the train enter the tunnel, immediately start counting cars... as only the 4th car enters the tunnel, on the level below, a black locomotive appears' to emerge from the tunnel below. I cannot imagine a curve so sharp, and grade so steep, that with so little of the train having entered the tunnel, it would already be exiting below. I now believe it to be yet another train, one that we don't get to see in any other movie view. As has been discussed elsewhere in these comments, there ARE two passenger trains, a 250-E Hiawatha and a 752W M-10,000. It seems far more likely there are 2 loops on 2 levels. with a train on each loop, hence 4 trains. Sadly, if this be the case, we only see a very blurry and very brief bit of the 4th one as it emerges from a tunnel on that lower level.. Two separated levels explains the 2 different passenger trains easily.. and no manual running or automation would be needed to keep them from end to end crashing as would needed on a single large 2 level loop with grades. Display RRs are set up to just run with minimal intervention, also a reason to believe 4 total loops, 2 on each level. There is also a portion of one of the 'reflection' scenes where the train passes very close by some white light bulbs that brightly illuminate it. Again, soft focus, and complex combined direct and reflected image conspire to hide details, but as the train passes, we can make out some colors, helping to confirm red transformer, WP feather car, green REA box and red NKP "banner" cupola caboose.
I recall when I was a young child in the early to late sixties seeing nice displays in variety and other stores that were Lionel electric trains at Christmas time.
I've seen this movie easily hundreds of times, and this display still never fails to evoke the magic, wonder, and exuberance of childhood and Christmastime. This info makes it just a little more magical. Incredible sleuthing work, and astounding knowledge of your hobby and craft - thanks for this, and a Merry Christmas to you and yours
I love the opening of that movie too. Get to see it all day tomorrow! Oh, did I see a Lionel Lines 752W Locomotive Union Pacific with passenger cars 753/754 (mustard yellow brown roofs)? WOOHOO!
I really enjoyed your fantastic detective work. Gotta say, though, that it's probably impossible to pinpoint the era the movie was supposed to be set in, based on the trains, because of the great chance the continuity editors of the movie cared very little about the trains. They probably went to a Lionel collector one of them knew and asked him or her to provide trains that would look plausible for the 1940 to 1955 era. Now for all the memories you have stirred in me! I lived in suburban Chicago from 1955 until 1965, and vividly remember displays like the ones in the movie, set up every year at Marshall Field's store in downtown Chicago. In those days, Mom would leave me at the trains while she and Grandma went shopping. They would return in about an hour, and I would still be enthralled by the snow white, multi-level train display. I also remember steam driven commuter trains on the Chicago and Northwestern Railway. My dad rode them every work day, and I loved watching them pull into the station and pull away, often having to use their sand domes during the icy winter months. C&NW went diesel in 1956, which broke my heart. I will NOT run diesel on my O gauge toy layout! Thanks again for this super fun to watch video, another in the long chain of excellent videos you have produced!
Great detailed analysis! I've always cherished this movie. I noticed long ago that the trains were postwar or later despite the movie taking place in 1940, but that opening scene really establishes the magic of a Christmas toy display. One could also argue that there was nobody there to wind up the clockwork tank that drives by in one scene. I also noticed that the Hiawatha loco had fake smoke in its stack that later disappeared.
JD, Thank you for describing the Lionel Trains in "Christmas Story" !!! I have always recognized some of the engines and cars of this movie! It has always thrilled me to catch this at the beginning of this!!! Thanks again, Lenny 👍😉❤️🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃
This video is totally awesome i always thought that was a 736 now i know thanks for sharing this info again a super awesome info video,,,,,thank you Ken and merry xmas to you and family.
This is one of my favorite Christmas movies and I love they had Lionel trains in that brief scene. However the aquarium car wasn’t around in the 40s. Some of the other trains weren’t around in the 40s either.
A guy who serviced my '88 Hiawatha told me that he knew the man who provided all the trains for the film. He said he got to meet the cast, and had breakfast with them. He said there was two guys the production crew asked to come help out - himself, and another man who had all the retro toys. Both were Cleveland-based collectors.
This layout at Higbee’s was put together by TCA members. It may have been featured in TCA Quarterly. I have some digital stills stashed away somewhere that show some stages of construction with Darren McGavin looking on.
My train shop had an M10 000. It was all painted in red and I was going to repaint it in Orange I thought it was so cool to have such an old Lionel engine that worked great and I didn't have to worry about repainting it. The train shop owner had a heart attack and while he was recuperating he stripped the red paint off the m1000 and painted it with the New York Central lightning strike scheme with hand done lettering at no charge is doctor told him he needed to do something to keep him occupied and so that's what he did and it was such a beautiful job he did on that engine I could not break his heart to repaint it orange to match my train cars so I use it in my pen Central o' gauge layout instead the Union Pacific was so stupid to scrap that whole train simply because the locomotive engine needed to be rebuilt they should have rebuilt it or replaced it with a brand new 567 diesel. Love the videos Merry Christmas Happy New Year and all that good stuff
A fun video! And it's hard to believe "A Christmas Story " is almost 40 years old! Wow! Where do the years go? Now on to the trains. We had quite a discussion of the trains in the store window on the "Classic Toy Trains" magazine on-line Forum several years ago. If nothing else the couplers on the freight train identify it as a post-war product. Just about everyone on the Forum picked up on that (and other things) but we all had a "Aw, so what?" attitude, just the sheer nostalgia for everyone who remembers a time when just about all retailers in downtown areas had trains in the display windows at Christmastime. One very good attention to detail is the trains being run are appropriate for the area. Jean Shepherd's semi-autobiographical novel "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash!" takes place in the fictitious town of Hohman Indiana, just over the Indiana-Illinois border and not far from Chicago, so the Midwestern trains like the Hiawatha and the UP's M-10000 are spot-on for the locale. The film-makers DO play a little "fast n' loose" with the time frame. In the novel the story's being told by an adult Ralphie who's a WW2 veteran, so the age of young Ralphie in the film isn't quite right. But if Jean Shepherd didn't mind why should we? "In God We Trust..." is a VERY good read by the way, very funny at times and bittersweet at others, and I can recommend it highly! Again, a fun video! Thanks for posting!
Just saw this. What a great video, thanks. I was about 4 when my dad and grandad got Santa to bring "me" a 2026 and the 3 green passenger cars. They and I loved it and I have been a fan ever since, occasionally collecting and running lionel for the kids and grandkids and admittedly mostly me.
I seem to recall a small (1 page) write up in an old issue of Classic Toy Trains describing how a local club provided the trains for the film. I believe they said they even recreated a display within the department store, but it didn't make it into the movie.
Really enjoyed your in-depth analysis, right down to the reflections in the window! By mixing some earlier production rolling stock along with 40's era pieces, including possibly some kit-bashed models, gave that freight train a unique personality. My love for trains all started with my first Lionel engine...that Berkshire, complete with a whistling tender and smoke pellets. Good Memories!!!
Great video. I always figured the steamer was a 726 give the outline and size of the tender seems to be a 2426W. Could be a 736 just as easily. Well done
A little research reveals that the decoder ring in the movie was the 1940 version. Little Orphan Annie went off the air in April 1942 and Ovaltine was not a sponsor past 1940. Hmm. I always thought the time period was the late 1940's. The Wizard of Oz came out in August 1939.
There are lots of anachronisms. The White Sox player mentioned was with Chicago until 1946. The "Monsters of the Midway" monicker for the Bears began in late 1940, but it's unlikely the Old Man would call them "Chipmunks" when they were winning their first of 2 consecutive championships that year. The model of Red Ryder gun described never existed at all until the movie.
I actually have 3464 nyc operating boxcar, the plunger doesn’t really work well and the man sometimes keeps popping out but it still works quite well, cool to see a car I own in this movie
Good to know I'm not the only person to have freeze-framed old films and tv shows to study the Lionel trains in them. I have done this for virtually every appearance - from The Day the Earth Stood Still, to Holiday Affair, Four's a Crowd, The World, the Flesh and the Devil, Night of the Meek (Twilight Zone), The Electric Train (Ozzie & Harriet), Beaver's Trains (Leave it to Beaver), and numerous Addam's Family episodes. Even Dennis the Menace had an episode with trains. By far my favorite is The Electric Train from season three of Ozzie & Harriet. Never before or since had Lionel trains been featured so prominently in a theatrical production. This, due to Ozzie Nelson's actual love and fascination for Lionel trains and accessories. He insisted the west coast reps from Lionel build a dealer display layout exclusively for this episode, and made sure it had all of Ozzie's favorite operating accessories on it. Nelson had his crew build a replica of a hobby shop true to the period (1954) and the best parts of this episode take place here. No mere glimpses or blurry background shots - we see the best that Lionel had to offer in beautiful closeups and full operation. The story itself is pretty good too, with a plot we can all relate to, and fine performances by all involved. For these reasons, The Electric Train is unquestionably the finest example of Lionel promotion, demonstration, and sheer fun that has ever been filmed. We owe it all to Ozzie Nelson.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Worthy of note, for those of us old enough to remember RADIO programs, Ozzie & Harriet began as a radio series before the dawn of television. The Electric Train was first produced as a radio episode, with most, but not all, of the same actors. The hobby shop owner was voiced by Frank Cady (Mr.Drucker on Petticoat Junction) whereas for television, that role was acted beautifully by Dan Tobin.
Have you ever noticed that when Gomez blows up the trains on the "Addams Family" layout he NEVER blows up the steam engines? Just the diesels. Not on the TV show anyway.
The movie 1941 had a quick shot of a Lionel coming at the camera and it looks appropriately prewar. A Christmas Story takes place in December 1940 according to Wikipedia.
The calendar in the kitchen says 1943. The White Sox trade The Old Man talks about was in 1946. There are many things that point to various years. Since the original book is a collection of short stories based on various memories of the author's childhood, it's not surprising that it is vague on its historical accuracy.
Noticed the Lionel trains the first viewing I had of the movie in 1986..... Watched it the movie again here three days ago this weekend. Also noticing the Hiawatha !!!!! Years portrayed are not completely clear however not the point of this great Classic film.... !!!!!!
Not sure if it’s been pointed out yet, but I can guarantee that this layout is two levels of two separate loops. They just used a similar locomotive on the inside bottom loop. There’s no way that same upper level steam freight went down some kind of crazy steep spiral. Thank you for making this video! I was also interested to know which trains they used. I could just watch a looped video of this display!
I think the million dollar question regarding these trains now is where they are nowadays Like I find it crazy to think that there's probably some prop warehouse in Hollywood that has these ultra-rare prewar and postwar lionel trains in storage and the studios that own said warehouse have no idea how much they're worth.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks That makes sense. Parts of the film were shot in the Cleveland area, in fact the "Christmas Story" house where some of the exteriors were filmed is a bit of a local attraction. The department store in the movie is (if I remember right) is the Cleveland Higbee's department store, THE place to go in the old days.
@@williammeszaros1671 I spent a lifetime in Cleveland, between Thanksgiving of 1968 to October 1, 1969. I was stationed at the 3rd Battalion, 65th Artillery on Richmond Road, Warrensville, Ohio (now the site of the Eaton Corporation Building). The sun didn't shine all winter except for the one day when I had KP and had to peel potatoes outside!!. This was the headquarters site, with other launch sites near Burke Lakefront Airport and A Battery in Painesville, Ohio! I later got sent to Selfridge AFB with the 28th Artillery Group from October 1969 until I left the Army late September, 1970. Didn't get to spend much time in downtown Cleveland, except for changing trains in Terminal tower. One train came in from Shaker heights, and then I switched to another train to Cleveland-Hopkins Airport. Remember seeing the "backside" of Jones-and-Laughlin Steel...gruesome!!
The film makes no mention of the Great Depression. Also, there is no reference to World War 2. Arguably, if the film were set before about 1938 or in December 1941 or after, there would have been some mention of these events. While there are few explicit references to the date, there is one unmistakable detail: Ralphie’s decoder ring, which he received in the mail and, conceivably, current at the time, was marked “1940”.
The decoder ring points to 1940, but a wall calendar says 1939. The sports events mentioned occurred as late as 1946. The Bing Crosby/Andrews Sisters music was recorded in 1945. When looking at the lamp from outside, the neighbor is wearing a Miami Dolphins hat! Then there's Scut Farkus and his Davey Crockett hat. The teeth in Miss Shield's drawer were invented in 1950. At the department store we see a woman in a post-Pearl Harbor Army uniform. The director stated in several interviews that his goal was to create a "foggy memory" of a time rather than to nail a specific year.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Seeing the soldiers in Army uniform kinda-sorta made me think it was Christmas in 1940. A peacetime draft was established in 1940 as a deterrant to possible German agression and as a way to establish a military baseline "Just in case." Wise move considering the "just in case" DID happen.
I think you could also argue 1938 or post 1942. The arguments for prewar: Money is tight (cannot afford new tires), no mention of WW2 (invasion of Poland in 1939, Lend-lease, the draft in 1940, etc). For during or postwar: The Old Man is significant older than Mom - fewer eligible young men - rubber is difficult to obtain, desegregated school indicating migration of southern Blacks to Chicago for wartime factories. If you look at it as the "foggy memories" of Ralphie looking back, you can see how childhood memories would focus on the happy events rather than the war, and how some events would be "misremembered" chronologically.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Another reason I picked 1940 was in one scene in the Christmas festivities you can spot some people dressed as characters from "The Wizard Of Oz," such as the Tin Man, the Scarecrow, the Cowardly Lion and I think Dorothy as well, and "Wizard" was a 1939 movie. By the way, 1939's been called "The Watershed Year For American Film," more classic movies were made in 1939 than any year before or since. 1942 or later? Well, Lionel wasn't making trains having switched the factory to war production work, in fact most toy production was suspended for everyone unless the toys were being made of non-strategic materials like wood or paper. But really it doesn't matter. Over-analyzing the film just ruins the fun when you come right down to it and "foggy memories" of Ralphie is a good way of looking at it.
Did you know the trains that they used in the Twilight Zone episode with Art Carney we're also the ones that they used in The Addams Family? I like the original layout that The Addams Family had on the TV show as opposed to the hyperextended layout that the movie had it was so exaggerated the original one was so much better.
my grandfather always used to run his Lionel trains for me as a child and i always enthralled by them and still have some of his trains today and still run them every Christmas. I have the Number 3464 New York central operating boxcar which is my favorite.
A few years ago, I was looking at this freight train in the movie (since they showed it all day on December 25th on TBS) and noticed many postwar cars. I then Googled what timeframe it was supposed to be set, and it said right before WWII. There was also a Toronto PCC car seen with small upper windows in other shots in the movie, and PCC cars were not built with upper windows until after WWII. These really ruin the illusion of the timeframe the movie is supposed to depict. I do like the theory that the freight train might've been a custom run or from a different manufacturer in that universe. I also noticed at 4:52 the passenger train on the lower level is an M10000, running on the same loop as the Hiawatha.
If you look at the Rado Flyer wagon in the window, you will see that wasnt even close to period correct. That was a brand new wagon. I guess they couldnt find a restored one from that era.
Thanks I always wondered about the type of rolling stock, now it makes alittle more sense. But the trains should have been all period correct 😮 to date
We'll, very little else in the film was accurate, so... In the scene where they are "admiring" the lamp from the street, the neighbor is wearing a Miami Dolphins cap!!
Whenever I watch this movie, I always think how sad neither Ralph or Randy wanted trains. And when they went to the toy store, they looked at the trains and I always hoped they would get trains but alas no. At least the trains wouldn't have poked your eye out.
EDIT: Locomotive is either a 726 or 736, but the tender is absolutely a 2426W. A clean print stop frame shows the wheels clearly outlined, and the shape of the rear deck behind the bunker, very clear and very unique. END EDIT EDIT: A better print now reveals the first boxcar to be a Pennsylvania 6454. ( I now agree with you, first boxcar is not an Erie 6454.) Though out of focus, the 'blobs' of lighter lettering match the Pennsylvania. END EDIT The tank cars are frustrating, as they show lightness near the dome, but I suspect that is 'snow' added by the prop department, just like we see on the caboose. If that is the case, then they are likely 2855 or 6025. Later in the train, the 'gray' boxcar is the correct color for 6044 Airex in blue-grey. The light pattern on the other unknown dark red boxcar could be another X6454 in Pennsy, or a 6454 Erie
I'm not sure on the "Erie" ID. It looks to me like the top line of white data is much longer, like "Pennsylvania". Here's the Erie car for comparison: photos.app.goo.gl/xysoVkaBXTEQMUbM9
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Some good sleuthing there... Having to try identification from such poor source material is a challenge. All we have are these small color and light/dark blobs going by, and everything out of focus. Thanks SO much for continuing to work on likely identity of the cars.
Not Lionel, but one vintage film with a memorable model train in it, at least for me, was Donovan's Reef with John Wayne and Lee Marvin. At the tail end of the movie, "Guns" Donovan (Wayne) gives his comedic foil/feuding partner and old navy shipmate "Boats" Gillhooley a Marx train set as a Christmas present. Gillhooley goes and sets it up on the long bar of the eponymous Donovan's Reef (Guns owns the place) and is quite enthralled with it even as his girlfriend is talking tying the knot with him. "Sure, baby, sure........Whoo-Whoo!" In the next scene, he's still happily playing with it with a big stogie clenched in his teeth on the front porch of the local church, which is finally getting its leaky roof fixed (something Gilhooley promised to do a long time ago) since Guns slammed him into the bar's busted slot machine during their final punch-up a few scenes back, naturally knocking loose the jackpot so Gillhooley finally got the dough to pay for the work. Even as the workmen are hammering away, they keep stealing glances down at the train too, happily racing around the track with the whistle hooting the whole time. Always makes me smile, those scenes. Just a big kid playing trains, ain't we all?
Yes, it's a cool Marx set. I read once that they wanted Lionel but they couldn't find any where they were filming in Hawaii. They contacted Louis Marx and he had a complete set flown out!
That first car behind the Berkshire, I'm thinking it is a 3854 Automatic Merchandise Car. It is longer than the 6454 boxcars, compared to the trucks, the body seems a tad large for a 6464 type. The 3854 used prewar 'scale' style bodies, which visually seem about right, especially compared to the New York Central gondola behind it.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks I watched my copy, which is a bit sharper, and it appears the doors are the same color as the car on that first boxcar, so the 3854 is out, as those had black doors. To be honest I find mysteries like this, and solving them, to be a lot of fun.
The caboose is most likely a Marx tin eight wheel caboose for the Nickel Plate Road - with the 'High Speed Service" banner. It appears in one of the 'window' reflection shots.
I agree that it is a Nickel Plate caboose, but I disagree about the Marx. 1) The Marx is a 3/16" scale model, which would make it SMALLER than the Lionel boxcars it is coupled to. Instead, it appears to be LARGER and thus a true 1/48" O scale model. 2) The Marx model features tin lithography, whereas the model in the movie clearly shows raised roofwalks and other details. The cupola on the movie model is centered and has window openings, while the Marx is more off-center and has closed windows and a red roof instead of black.
There were a number of 1/4" scale kits offered in the 1970s of NKP banner scheme NE-6 cabooses. Bev-Bel was one of them. I have 2 of these in my collection. After the movie was made both Atlas O and MTH made plastic factory painted versions.
So I don’t know anything about trains but I have a good eye and relentless detective skills. Key things to notice on the caboose: 1. Black roof with red sides/front on the cupola. 2. The white “Nickel Plate Road” banner just under the roof. 3. Black ladders 4. A single side window on the cupola. 5. 4 side windows on the train. The closest typical model that matches most of these specs is the MTH Premier 20-91732 or 91733. The only issue is that these have 2 side windows on the cupola. There is one caboose that seems to match everything but it is almost a ghost on the internet but is an Overland NKP Rolling Stock Nickel Plate Road WOOD caboose with markings on the side showing the number “1207” or “1059”. Again knowing nothing about trains, but it almost seems like this might be a custom kit? Maybe someone with more knowledge can extrapolate on what I found.
I have a question with the freight train. Would it be possible for a locomotive to pull that train if all the cars had " lead sled " trucks? I had thought the cars were reproductions with Delrin self-lubricating plastic trucks and fast angle wheelsets. I recall seeing in a Classic Toy Trains article in the 1990s about someone who offered a service of installing ball bearings in metal trucks. That magazine also had an article about a Scout steam locomotive with a plastic body that could barely pull the tender, boxcar, gondola, and caboose it was packaged with. It seems the large steamers of that time pulled six cat freight trains or four car passenger trains.
When properly lubricated, the Postwar metal trucks run fine. Between the weight of the boiler and (possibly) Magnatraction, a Lionel Berkshire would have no problem with a 15 car train. And, yes, the original plastic boiler Scout could not pull 4 cars on level track. That locomotive was quickly replaced with a diecast version. Mine can pull 6-7 cars.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks - That is interesting - that a Berkshire could pull that many cars! I once took a Marx wind-up steam locomotive and coupled it to a post war car - it wouldn't budge. I then coupled the steamer to a MPC tender, flat car, hopper, & caboose. The Marx wind-up engine rapidly pulled them along the track!
I thought the story was set in the late forties not long after ww2 had ended. Maybe I was wrong about that. The Godfather movie had a scene with a Lionel train in it also.
The book is set in 1939-40. The movie is more ambiguous. Think of middle -aged Ralphie thinking back to his childhood - some historical details are going to be wrong.
At the time of the film, the best explanations for the caboose would be a scale brass model converted to 3 rail or a scratch build. Since then, I know MTH and Lionel have made similar scale models.
A recently published article interviews one of the people that loaned trains to this scene production. He had poor overall memory of specifics but was absolutely certain that one of the guys brought a Hudson. Given we have absolutely identified the loco we see the 'most' as a 726 or 736 Berkshire, this more or less confirms my theory of there being 2 freight trains, one on each level. We see the front of s steamer emerging from a lower level tunnel just after the Berkshire enters a tunnel on the upper level. This is not the nose of the Berk emerging below after turning an impossibly tight corkscrew, it MUST be the Hudson reported to have been there by one of the participants. The last big mystery to me is the load in the second gondola, which after examination of every frame in which it appears, seems to not match the load in the cop/hobo 3444 gondola car, nor the 3562 barrel load gondola. There is wood colored structure carried in the gondola, likely with an irregular upper shape, perhaps modeling several crates. I now believe that to not be a Lionel load, but likely a home made load. I am seeking further comments on this car's load. The caboose is likely an O scale kit produced by Ambroid/Gloor Craft/Quality craft for many many years. It is an NE-6 class with 4 windows per side and a cupula. Much later than the era of movie production, both MTH and Atlas produced this caboose in 3 rail. I have acquired the MTH built caboose to take up the tail in my recreation of the freight train, rather than dedicate construction of the one unbuilt Quality Craft kit in my collection. I have 2 more built up, ( in 2 rail ) one with the banner scheme, and the other in the earlier darker red non banner scheme.
So here’s my take on the caboose: So I don’t know anything about trains but I have a good eye and relentless detective skills. Key things to notice on the caboose: 1. Black roof with red sides/front on the cupola. 2. The white “Nickel Plate Road” banner just under the roof. 3. Black ladders 4. A single side window on the cupola. 5. 4 side windows on the train. The closest typical model that matches most of these specs is the MTH Premier 20-91732 or 91733. The only issue is that these have 2 side windows on the cupola. There is one caboose that seems to match everything but it is almost a ghost on the internet but is an Overland NKP Rolling Stock Nickel Plate Road WOOD caboose with markings on the side showing the number “1207” or “1059”. Again knowing nothing about trains, but it almost seems like this might be a custom kit? Maybe someone with more knowledge can extrapolate on what I found.
I DO know something about O scale being on my 70s and having been in the scale since I was 9 years old. At the time of filming, there had been in production for many years, a craftsman style kit, as mentioned in my post. I own 3 of them, 2 built up as 2 rail models, one in NKP banner, the other in NKP text only. The third example in my collection is unbuilt kit. Decades after the filming, MTH and Atlas-O have produced plastic versions of the prototype, both in 1/48, not the slightly smaller size typically seen in older period Lionel. I purchased the MTH caboose, having found one as new-old-stock and offered at original MSRP, which was lower price than several others found pre-owned from both Atlas and MTH. As I mentioned before, I do not wish to build up my unbuilt kit for this train recreation, even though it would be the exact match for what appears in the movie. The later production plastic cars are of the same prototype, are scale models, and hence have the same appearance.
I have a question, at time stamp 4:44, that is not the same Hiawatha Passenger train from the earlier segments. That looks more like the Lionel City of Portland. It makes me wonder if they would risk running two passenger trains on the same line, or if the bottom loops may not be connected to the top loops. Thoughts?
We do know what year it was. December 1941 because the man talks about a football game that happened that fall. circa 1941. Just because there are pre-war trains and talk of Wizard of Oz and little orphan Annie ring was from 1940, it would make sense, people talk about things of the past, People still talk about Star Wars, that doesn't mean it came out in 2022. The time is December '41
You guys are slightly OCD with a fixation on trains of yore 😂. There are actually some TCA guys who did all this stuff. You may consult the TCA Toy Train Mailing List archives to find a discussion from several years ago. There are even some still shots of when they set this display up.
The guy who said to layout was Free World War II was absolutely wrong because they didn't have the Berkshires pre World War II it was a post war engine. I remember a hardware store that used to have a TT gauge layout in the winter time and when I walked to school I would always stop and look at it and he would let it run all day and night because even when the store was closed you could stand in the snow and look at the trains go by. Imagine a Christmas where everything under the Christmas tree is All American made including the wrapping paper and everything under the tree. What happened to that America? We know what happened to that America it got killed. How many of us would love to live in that America?
