Locomotive Liveries: A Brush With Controversy? 

As a heritage railway volunteer, it is shocking how outraged, and sometimes even offensive, some people get if a vehicle is painted the "wrong" color. First: after spending hundreds or thousands of hours of voluntary labour in it, may we please paint it the way we like it? And second: it's only paint, nothing irreversible.

I think It's fun having some of the locos wearing different liveries that they may not have worn in active service. More FUN!

I remember a Polycell wallpaper paste TV ad back in the 60s where they wallpapered a locomotive and ran it in wet weather to show the durability of the product. It has always "stuck with me... s'cuse the pun.😊

You can paint the loco in any colour you like, as long as you like what I like. - Rail Enthusiast Henry Ford (probably).

You own it, you work restoring it, you work keeping it going, you get to decide. You don't own it, you don't work on it, you don't get involved in keeping it going, you don't get to decide or critique livery choice. Nice simple set of rules to keep the peace. The paint limitations didn't extend just to railways, somewhere I remember reading about the admiralty issuing instructions in 1940 that limited the paints for their ships which saw gloss paint no longer used after supplies on hand ran out and varnish for wooden parts like railings replaced with a lick of matt paint. Guess with linseed oil in greater need as a lubricant in industry there just wasn't enough to do the full gloss finish on things anymore. Still not exactly clear on where supplies of certain pigments came into the decision making but sure some day I'll come across a good explination as to why black was so (relatively) abundant

Interesting one, and I love the cooperation with Didcot and Bluebell that really lifted the whole video.

Thank you Jeremy Clarkson II for this new episode of Train Gear

One of the outgoing Class 455's on SWR has been repainted in BR Blue and grey. Very smart!

I love pre-grouping liveries most of all, and I’d take it any day over BR black. The old liveries are so inaccurately documented that it doesn’t matter if the colours are different between surviving examples. Some of my favourites include LBSCR umber, GER ultramarine blue, and LSWR mint and chocolate green.

Not forgetting when the SVR and steam railway painting one side of city of truro in BR lined black for an April fools front cover back in the 1980's

I’m quite laid back on this topic but I love seeing unusual liveries or variations on liveries to add variety especially as so many heritage railways are plastering their fleets unremittingly in BR black or green. As far as whether a certain shade of a colour is accurate then again I’m pretty relaxed - paint fades over time plus without the technology available today batches of paint were mixed by hand so no doubt there’d be some variation between locomotives of the same class in supposedly the same livery. That’s before we consider how well they were being cleaned… or not!

Honestly I think any of the British locomotives look insanely good no matter what livery they happen to be in. But I can understand the preference. Best wishes from America I’m rescend it after watching 9:26, most liveries look good on a British steam engines

I always enjoy these videos, and seeing other’s opinions on liveries. As a one with a museum background, I loathe simply “that’s how XXX remembers it” and locos always being “as retired”. I am of the opinion that each piece should be considered for what it’s period of significance is, contrasted with if that requires significant alteration to historic fabric, although from a later date. OR in a case when one has several locomotives of the same class, an attempt could be considered to show their more of their life. If one has 2 Castles, consider one BR, one GWR, or one early GWR, one late.

The problem in WW2 was there was only one painter for the entire fleet due to war work, he was Mr Black, and his work instructions were "Paint It", Black. Which in chinese whispers got confused

I know someone who owns a loco who once had a huge argument with someone over the colour of the background on the number! His was red, the 'know all' was adamant all that type of loco had green backgrounds. Knowing the history of the loco and the works where it was built he explained his red was correct. The red and green denoated slightly different versions and in the Victorian period many fitters couldn't read or write so written task sheets or instructions were a waste of time. Having different number background colours differentiated the model types so the fitters knew which type they were working on.

It would be nice to see Grouping and pre-grouping engines in their original liveries than just BRs colour scheme.

Nice to the wall paper again. When she came out of Barry, she came to Derby. I was a year 2 apprentice who worked on her.

Heritage railways are part of the entertainment industry. Paint anything whatever colour you like. The vast majority of visitors couldn’t care less what colour it is as long as it’s a “steam train”

LBSCR and SECR liveries look really nice.

The Keighley and Worth Valley Railways Black 5 what a shock that was, used in an advert in the 1960s to advertise the strength of "Solvite" wallpaper paste, I saw it and could not believe my eyes! Wonder if it would suit a class 66???? Lol.😅

Doncaster was the main works for the Great Northern Railway. When the LNER was created the main works of Darlington (NE) and Doncaster (GN) both kept there version of Green. The other works Stratford, Cowlais and Inverurie got there paint from either of the main works so slight variations of Green was common on the LNER.

I’m going to be THAT railway enthusiast and point out William Stroudley of the LBSCR (of the yellow ‘Improved Engine Green’) had died before Harry Wainwright became SECR CME so his livery wasn’t in competition with the SECR, it was the other way round.

Very interesting overview. Germany and some other countries settled on black paint with red wheels and chassis for their steam locomotives from the 1920s. Black was unexpensive, didn't fade and didn't look dirty when sooty. Black paint was even used for some early diesel locomotives. Wheels were painted red to see defects more easily on visual inspection. The red paint on wheels and underframes/bogies was even extended to electric locomotives (with green bodies) by post-war Deutsche Reichsbahn in east Germany. Other railways seemed to do quite well with black wheels though, and today the standard is black or dark gray for chassis/underframes/bogies/wheels because that's not as easily disfigured by brake dust and other dirt. It is interesting how widespread the standard of black steam locomotives, green passenger trains and brown freight trains used to be, not just in Europe but in many countries much farther away such as China. I assume these are durable and unexpensive colours hiding the dirt when the trains aren't cleaned as often. A disadvantage is (besides the rather dull appearance) that they aren't as visible which might be considered a risk when you want to prevent accidents (for this consideration British trains for some decades universally had yellow front end paint). At least since the Shinkansen another standard emerged with mostly white or light grey high speed trains (including the German ICE), this might partially be inspired by the white paint that's most common on civilian aircraft (there primarily for technical/economical reasons as well).

Interesting stuff! Hopefully one day soon, we will be having discussions about what colour to paint..... something 😉🚂

I think lner green 2006 was the livery that fit Scotsman the most. But I do prefer br green over lner green.

I don't think GWR ever painted steam locomotives in Brunswick green, that was a BR colour for some steam locomotives, GWR used Deep Bronze Green.

Thanks for this! The series is always fantastic but this was particularly useful for helping justify paint schemes for the 5" gauge locos too!

I seem to just remember the BR blue at Doncaster sometime before April 1950. We used to travel from Blackpool to Middlesbrough & when we joined LNER track my dad always looked out for express locos to show me.

Eastleigh substituted Malachite green with LSWR pea green, leftover from the T3s post war repaint when they sent 02 W34 Newport to the Isle Of Wight. When BR came into being, the cabsides and tanks were painted malachite but the boiler was left in pea green. How many IOWSR fans would curse and spit if Calbourne was painted like this? Or unlined olive green like she wore during the early part of WW2?

Great video. Presentation gets better and better.

For the LNER there was a difference between Darlington and Doncaster Green as original were different companies. Darlington Green was called Apple Green but Doncaster Green was called Grass Green. There was more White in the Darlington version. So if a loco was built or repaired by either works then the locomotives came out in the respective livery.

I'd quite like to see a streamlined Bullied pacific painted in 1970s BR blue, with double arrow symbol and bright yellow ends. I'm sure nobody would complain. 🙃

Great video Will. I don't mind what if liveries in preservation on locos for a few years I think it's fun I always say I am filming/,photographing what we have achieved now not the past and unfortunately wasn't around in BR steam days. Example would like to eventually see a class 158/159 preserved and think BR green would really suit one. A 24 looks surprisingly cool in Load Haul I think if you look on the net. My fave liveries are GWR green, BR blue as that was my childhood. Intercity Swallow, RF General sector but like most really. Gloss over a few things 🙄

Thank you for a most entertaining and informative presentation - keep up the good work!

9:25 there was also that bright yellow & red Daily Mirror Midland Compound

An excellent look at liveries. Well done Will & co!

Locomotive Liveries: A Brush With Controversy LOVE LOUIS SHIRLEY

In the final days of BR operation steam locos did not have a liverie, they were all covered in grey muck

Well done Will very informative stuff mate.

i don't think people who complain about liveries have a leg to stand on considering it's not theirs and they can go somewhere else that has that loco in the colours they like. also almost any thing can be authentic i've seen photos of a midland compound in bright yellow paint ( if your interested look up the daily mirror andy capp blackpool special ).

And of course all of that was before any paint standards were introduced so everyone even fights over the interpretation of the exact tint of green and so on. Compared to the UK Germany was a lot easier after 1930: everything black with red frame and wheels. There were a few exceptions to that, like the red streamliners and one locomotive that was painted in SVT purple but those quickly ended up black on red as well. The Br52 was often painted grey as these were primarily assigned to army duties.

As much as I'd love to see Scotsman in LNER Apple green, I'm not the chairman and I don't make the decisions. I _do_ however wish it was possible for them to rotate liveries on a full if not half year basis so people can see the engine in all varying sorts of colours such as the Royal blue or Black Scotsman also wore, although I understand all too well how much a nightmare that'd be in costs.

🎨🖌 Wish I was wealthy enough to buy a British steam locomotive and have it painted in an American livery from one of the several colorful streamlined steam locos we had. The Lackawanna, and the Lehigh Valley, come to mind as top inspirations ...

A bloke at the Lakeside railway painted his a silly colour as he was fed up with the 'bright guys' telling him what it 'should be'!

You own it so you get to decide .... sadly the trend at the moment is for boring BR black. Pity, we don't see some of the more colourful older liveries. Prime example the new Beachy Head atlantic.

Don't forget Will that the SVR also painted City of Truro in BR mixed traffic black albeit only on one side and there was a storm of protest about that too. As you said it's up to the owner not the enthusiast fraternity to decide what livery their loco will carry. It may be a BR livery or even pink with purple poker dots, its their loco their choice. Mind you I'd love to see a steam loco painted in BR corporate blue and yellow with a large arrows of indecision logo on it's tender. Why not have a bit of fun with liveries and upset the enthusiast fraternity to jog them out of the complacency.

These Mid Hants Railway videos are brilliant. 👏👏👏👏👏

This isn't a new topic as far as I can tell. One of the two surviving Fairburn tank engines wore the Caledonian Railways blue livery in preservation in the 1970's-80's. I can only imagine the amount of head explosions it caused back when it was done, and how much worse it would be if the Internet were around! The other preserved Fairburn wore LNWR lined black at the same time, which was less controversial because it was still a mostly-plain black livery. The class only ever wore LMS black and BR black when in service.

Well done Will and team a very well presented video. I learnt a bit about liveries which I really didn't know, thank you. I must say Fenchurch looks outstanding. I always remember one of the class being on a plinth outside the Hayling Billy pub, I think it was Newington. All the best

Well in an ideal world i would like to see locos have the livery of their original operator,but then you would also need the running stock to go with it and place it on the same stretch of line it operated,but that combination of ideal factors would be pretty rare. Lets take as an example the LD & ECR running from Chesterfield to Lincoln from 1897 to 1907. Part of that track still exists, there is one carraige in preservation and there may be examples of loco museum pieces that later became owned by the Great Central and LNER but the original company only operated 10 years, any loco inherited would have spent their life split between GCR & LNER before bieng hauled for scrap in the early years of British Railways, but whoever puts money into the preservation should surely have the right to say what the final livery is.

0:35Yes, but that was truly horrid. The plain back she was then repainted in looked great, though.

An excellent and interesting history lesson which I'm sure will promote much discussion. Also enjoyed the tongue tied section at the end. Well done.

WILL your a star buddy👍👍👍

Think it's bad in the UK try here in Australia so in South Australia we have same ish colours with Black the main one with a few dark greens etc. So a loco here was green for a long time and the railway decided to make it black. So half were for it long time others weren't and now it's flipped people saying it should go back green. So know your point very well Will

Love this. Spoke at gcr...😎

Authentic liveries are best. Genuine liveries next, ‘oddball’ liveries last. BUT if an owner has invested cash and effort in restoration painting is his prerogative.

Paint it whatever colour you like if you own it. 🙂👍

Anything goes, so long as Hawi Rainwight would have approved. Will, I feel your pain!

🎉🎉🎉

If a heritage railway wants to paint stock I ask they use a livery that was used in actual service. It keeps it historical. I only remember British Rail Blue. Then Intercity colours then Network SouthEast. After privatisation there are many liveries. I wish modern stock 2024 was painted one colour like London red buses with a simple operator logo. Saves millions on rebranding.

Wait till the livery mafia find out some locomotives are running on tracks that they never ran on in service....

Going to be fun telling people Fenchurch is green 😂

I think that the best livery for engines are the ones it is most known for like fenchurch is known for the lbscr umber the gwr 6000 is known for gwr green

Rule One should also apply to hertiage railways. It's your loco and coaches paint them any way you want. Bill from California

Surely " it's my loco, so i choose the colour" applies? As long as it looks great, it doesn't really matter. Although I have to say that while I lliked the SVRs commemorating QE 2's jubilee, IMO, the actual shade of purple could have been a little darker. ( We had a family trip to the SVR on the day of the renaming ceremony)

history is inescapable. history does not end. all liveries that an engine wears at any point in time are thus automatically historical liveries. for instance, the 1970s preservation era is just as much history as anything before it. talyllyn's current GER blue will be regarded as fond memory years down the line. our history is ongoing, and it matters not what the LNER did with their locos but what we do with them now. this is the goal of preservation: keep steam alive. living things change. in seven years time, every cell in your body is replaced. but you are still you, because "history" is abstract, and the present is real.

Cheers, Will, and the film crew for yet another informative video. But why spoil it with alleged repeated bloopers.

Could you confirm whether the Railways had records of how the paint was mixed ie 10 gallons of Green, 5 gallons of Bronze etc. There is ongoing debate both in the preserved scene and in the model railway world about whethèr a livery is correct? Unless I am incorrect there did not seem to be a BS std number for their colours. I won't go into the debate about Green from a certain railway company and what was is its correct name.

Flying Scotsman should be BR green as they very little of LNER locomotive remains

If the heritage railway piant thier locomitive a different colour than it orginal livery it give the people visting the sense they have new locomitive in their fleet and keeps them wanting to vist after all if the vistors do come then no railway at the end of the day

Should people not just be happy that these machines are still running?

What's that chaps name Will?????🤔🤔 Great vid till you mentioned a Black 5 in Apple Green🤢🤢😂😂 I thought Sir Nige & Taw looked great in black though. Lets be thankful these locos are running at all.

Russia Iron and polished brass. There is no substitute.

They should repaint Flying Scotsman in BR large-logo blue...

Bright pink black 5 please

I spy Earl Bathurst. Hellfire

What does it say on the V5 document as the original colour 😂😂😂

Timecode 9:23 that was an advert in the 70s for " Super Fresco " wallpaper by Graham and Crown to prove that steamy conditions wouldn't make the paper fall off. My mind is FULL of this useless rubbish.

I am of the side to paint the loco's as they last ran in service ,as there can't be many people alive who remember pre-Nat loco's running , obviously loco's which never carried BR livery fine ,but just look at Blue Peter , amazing restoration ,but BR Express blue ? it never carried it hmmm ,

My favourite livery of all time (independent of the company) is the Wainwright livery for the SE&CR. As you said, companies changed their liveries over time so there is not one definitive livery. The worst comment that may be made about painting the loco purple in commemoration of the Queen's jubilee is that it was a waste of money. May I assume that the livery was changed after a suitable period?

Or Don't paint them 😁

As long as it never appears in a BR livery except the lined black like a Black 5 which is really LNWR lined Black I’m good. Don’t need to ever see a BR livery myself nor any memories of BR

This is obviously a very emotive subject but why restore these locomotives to their former grandeur and not paint them in a livery which was used in service. Seems a little strange to me. You wouldn't restore an oil painting using different colours would you? I remember seeing a class 50 painted in Load Haul livery it looked very nice but not correct. 🚂🚂🚂

Paint them how they were during the period after nationalisation - from 1948 till the end of steam in 1968. This is because a huge proportion of the potential passengers for heritage railways were trainspotters during this period. They remember, and miss steam specifically from this era. Even younger enthusiasts are far more interested in photographs of engines from the post war period. Back in 1968, however, things were very different. At that time most enthusiasts had never seen locos running in older liveries, such as WR locos with the number on the buffer beam as they were in GWR days. They marvelled at finally seeing A4 locos like 60007 Nigel Gresley in blue instead of green with the LNER number 4498. But now the precise opposite is true. That novelty is long over. They yearn to see and re-experiene steam as they remember it in the final years. I am convinced that heritage railway passenger numbers would be much higher if they catered for this. I, for one am unlikely to re-visit Didcot steam shed which caters almost exclusively for GWR locos in GWR colours. If they repainted at least half of their stock in BR colours, so that it was reminiscent of Old Oak Common in 1964, it would draw in far more enthusiasts and their families.

Well, talk about opening a proverbial "can of worms". And the keyboard warriors go MAD!!!! Not me. Don't OWN one, don't have a say. PERIOD. Case closed!!

Same with the 'big railway' people more focused on what crap livery loco's are painted(WR Western anyone?) then the broken,not fit for purpose privattised mess we are stuck with

The important lesson here: (1) Don't paint heritage engines in war colours, they're boring, ugly, and not representative of their service. They were black out of necessity, not choice. (2) Don't paint heritage engines in flashy colours that aren't even loosely reminiscent of what they wore in service. (3) Exception to the above: BR Black is as bad as wartime black and should be purged from railway history as an affront to liveries.

Any colour is fine ...but please dont paint them rainbow ! 😀

499 should be BR black. That’s the livery which suits it’s end of service condition. End of discussion. I shall cease to visit the railway if it comes out in green. No I won’t actually… I will visit but I will peer over the fence and enjoy it without paying.

I wonder what this is leading to? Are we paving the way for a more woke colour?

Nobody in the real world even cares....

I like all liveries, but slightly favour pre-nationalisation. I visit heritage railways every week, and the vibe I get from Joe Public is they think all engines are the same, since they all got painted BR black or green, A4’s being the exception. This means they don’t distinguish the regions or pre grouping era. To them, everything is just a kettle, or a Mallard. This could explain why the T3 had poor visitor numbers. Whereas 30 years ago, it would have had football crowds, despite no internet for publicity.

Should be in the colours it was In. B.R. thats how most of us remember them