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How about general environment? All other factors being equal, I’d be far more inclined to buy a 7500 hr 172 that has spent it’s entire life hangared in Arizona than a low-time 172 that has been tied down outside in Florida!
I've thought about flying for many years and am now in a position to get serious about and your channel is fueling the fire. Subscribed and binge watching. Thanks for all the help and ideas so far.
Nice presentation. The double edged sword of the internet is that you have access to aircraft across the country, but the reality of purchasing an aircraft outside your area is a challenge. There is no substitute for seeing an airplane in-person and trying to travel to see the aircraft, supervise a pre-buy (shops backed up), and ferry the airplane can be daunting. If there is a local airplane available that maybe isn't your perfect match, it may be better than going after the golden ring out of town.
I had a chance to buy a 30-some year old V tail Beech at a ridiculously low price of $25K. It was owned by an A&P whose A&P father bought it new. It was always hangared. Perfect factory shipped shape. And that last thing was the problem: it still had the original coffee grinder radios that were being outlawed. It would have needed a whole new panel.
I’d include airworthiness directives for a given aircraft. Things like spar inspections can essentially result in repairs far exceeding the ac value. Another thing is insurability, does your piloting experience allow you to insure the ac at an affordable rate? Lastly, I’d consider average annual maintenance costs.
starting my flying journey on thursday, i did not know i could do this at 20 years old. i thought i needed to be rich until i found your videos. thank you
Another thing I look at is how often was it flown since the engine was overhaul. It could have only 100 hours since overhaul but that was in the last 10 years. That engine will probably not make it to TBO or could have internal corrosion. Also, where was it based and was it hangared or tie down. If it was based in a salt air environment that could be a red flag for corrosion.
Shoulder harnesses might be another column to add. And some panel and radio upgrades are mandatory for a lot of airspaces, like ADS-B out and mode C transponder.
Great postings Charlie! Found you on You Tube a few months ago. My son and I are going through the process of trying to find the perfect 182. For first time buyers your information is tailored for us, just perfect. Keep it up, your service is greatly appreciated.
Thanks Linda! So glad you've found it helpful. You will LOVE the 182. If you didn't see last week's video, I did a whole bit on how much I love that airplane. I'm working on more airplane buying and ownership content including a course of the buying process from A-Z. I wish there was more out there on this so I'm working on it. Anyways, good luck in the search! You've picked a wonderful airplane to look for :)
VFR - visual follows roads. I tend to do that flying to my parents, lot s of desert and s few mountains. Dont really want to land in those places if something went stupid with the engine could be 50 miles to a highway or worse medical attention ( hope not).
Always great videos and information. I just completed a two year build on a 210 and I don’t recommend it. Factoring in how much down time to do upgrades is a huge expense. From experience double the time you are told to complete the job and add 50% to the price. You will get what you want if you are willing to wait for it though.
Lenders also have requirements. Max airfame time, Engine TBO, Engine TIME SINCE LAST overhaul etc. These can be arbitrary or changed at the whim of the lender. Read the fine print.
Great vedio,on purchase and picking the right flight instructor,I was very fortunate to have a dad,that we could nit see eye to eye,on some things, are should I say I could not be perfect enough for him.but was rated in multi engine ATP helicopter, and the best help.was competed in aerobatics at the highest level of competitive in his career, I have etched in my brain how to recover from a spin.reduce,throttle, nuetrilize,controls,opposite rudder,come right out of spin
I'm going through this exact process a the moment as a beginner. This information and all your other videos have excellent content and information. Put that together with the additional information in the comments make this a great channel. Thank you.
Something I added to my spreadsheet was a cost-per-hour column for those who will utilize the "pay myself to fly" method. Factor in SMOH for engine and prop (for complex) and I also added a reserve for upgrading those things you mentioned that could bring the price down, like paint, avionics, etc. So 0 points for paint requires $50 reserve to get the job done sooner, and a 3-point plane needs $10. A plane with 500SMOH needs $27 per hour reserve while one with 1500SMOH needs $80. The values are mostly arbitrary, but I find that a plane with a higher purchase price costs less "per hour" to operate. You can also see the theoretical cost between planes, like between one model with 1500TBO and one with 2000TBO, or simple vs complex, etc. I've never owned a plane, so I don't know if these numbers will ever be more than theoretical, but they make sense to me.
Biggie!- is it in current annual??? If not, it may have sat abandoned for many years and need significant maintenance just to get it airworthy. Routine maintenance is one thing, but finding unresolved ADs, or finding corrosion can make it a parts plane. That is where a thorough pre-buy inspection with a mechanic knowledgeable in the type is a smart investment.
Engin would probably depend on the number of hours you plan to put on it based on your rental usage and free time, also there is time put on the plane the last 5 years. I have seen online people buying or looking at planes that has sat over 5 years because the former owner got too old to fly but never got around to selling the plane. The digital instruments that fit into steam gauge holes have gotten quite cheap, I think some have Bluetooth connectivity to your iPad flight program, there are also dash top Bluetooth connections.
Brother, you have found a niche in the aviation environment. You present practical, sound, and reliable information that will be of use to the buyer. Excellent information as I'm looking to buy my first plane. Thank you.👍👍👍👍👍
Noob here just to let you know. When you get serious about a plane how could you see how much time it spent in a hangar vs outside. Would it be in the log book? Isn't spending time outside the cause for corrosion? (as well as being near salt coasts) If you are looking at planes for years would you consider putting the tail number in the spreadsheet for future reference?
Great video. I have noticed those things. I saw a great listing on a Commancie. Everything looked great till I got to the part about the wheels up landing.
Thank you for your valuable info. Quick questions: Generally speaking is Total Time between 2000 - 6000 good ? Overhaul is usually around 2000 hours ? What is a good time for prop?
This is different for ever plane, engine, and usecase. An hour of trainer flight is harder on an airframe than an hour of charter, for example. And some planes are better able to take a beating than others. Engines are complex mechanical beasts that are different model to model, so you'll need to see what model engine is in the plane then lookup the manual for that engine to see what the overhaul time is. Some engines have a TBO of 200 hours, some 2000. There's wide variability, although the big name brands tend to have ~1500 hour TBO. Also look at how many hours have been put onto the engine since the last overhaul. An engine that only has 1 hour on it over 10 years is probably going to need a lot of maintenance just to get it running safely again. You have a similar issue with propellers which have model-specific TBO and overall calendar time issues. But, the major brands have a similar ~1500 TBO. Seems like the big parts of the plane have similar TBOs to make maintenance easier?
Great data Charlie This is exactly what I’m doing to research a Cessna cardinal. I built a spreadsheet capturing engine time, airframe time, prop time, avionics, paint age, etc This helped compare different planes My emphasis was on engine time Thanks for helping me confirm my approach to shopping for my plane
Thanks Rick, that's great! Sounds like you're on top of it. I have never flown a cardinal but I know the ownership community is really loyal to them. Seems like a great plane!
I'm a student pilot and plan of purchasing a Rockwell Commander 112a in the future. So, your videos will diffently assist with this purchase. I have a fixed and viable cost spreadsheet that I have to ensure compliance with all budget requirements for me. My monthly budget is $1790. Thats with a 10 year payoff.
My plane's engine was 1300 hours SMOH (OK) but 28 years (on condition) when it decided to grind its innards in to sparkly metal filings. The rebuilt engine cost more than I paid for the plane in the first place, before even installing it. :-( The plane checks most of the "value" boxes otherwise, which is why I decided to spend the money: reasonable airframe time, complete logs, nice upgrades, modern avionics, good interior, decent paint. Plus a botched landing many years ago, long since repaired.
I would rather have a lower time airframe, complete logs, no accidents, decent panel, but would not mind having an engine that is due or past due for overhaul. I would build that into the total price of the airplane.
Great video Charlie! Quick question, when making your spreadsheet and filling in the aircraft you're interested in, would you just fill out the spreadsheet with aircraft that only have the price listed on the ad already or for the ones listed as "call for price" would you call and see what they are asking for it even if you aren't planning to purchase an airplane soon.
Thanks and good question. It depends on how many listings were available... if there is a lot of data I wouldn't bother calling. But some of the more rare planes or newer planes have a "call for price" sticker on it and you'd have to go through that process in order to populate the spreadsheet.
Call for price always frustrates me. You trying to sell me something? You don't want to give me probably the single most pertinent data point until I spend my time to call you? Pass. The few times I have called for price, especially to dealers, is a precious 30 minutes where I can't get off the phone without being rude.
1500 hours on a 60 year old airplane is not a good sign. In fact, it may be just as bad as 15,000. Planes need to fly. Sure, if the engine, hoses, tires, and all kinds of things have just been replaced, then it might be a gem, but run away from a 20+ year old engine that's only been run up for an hour or two every year since.
I prefer high time engines. High TBO brings the price down. Corrosion is the deal breaker. Corrosion is what kills an aircraft engine. A newly overhauled engine is statistically more likely to fail than a clean (not corroded) high time engine. Thorough inspection and maintenance will keep a high time engine and airframe safe for many low cost hours of operation. I drive an old car too. A well maintained, old car that I will drive for at least a decade before I grudgingly replace it with another old car. You see where I’m going with this. Great video, as usual. Thanks for posting. P.S. The most important thing is a pre purchase by an expert on the specific type of aircraft. Older and higher time aircraft will require a more thorough and expensive pre purchase inspection. Aircraft that have spent significant time in high humidity, coastal (salty) regions are usually not worth bothering with. Finally, it’s going to be stupid expensive and absolutely unjustifiable. It’s also going to be super fun.
Great information as I am looking into learning to fly a glider. All the information applies to all types of aircraft. I intend to buy a glider so the information was very helpful.
Missing logs is not as big an issue as many people make it out to be depending on a variety of factors. First, it depends on how old an airplane is and what timeframe the logs are missing from. An older airplane with missing logs from the early years is not a real issue as the plane has likely had numerous annual inspections complied with since then and any real issues would have been discovered by an IA. As to possible damage and repair history missing in those missing logs, the 337s in OKC should have the major repairs documented. Buy the CD! If they are missing, a good pre-buy should discover undocumented repairs and/or mods. Now, missing logs from recent years would concern me a little more as there has been less time for a sharp eyed IA to discover issues but again, a good pre-buy will really help there as well. Basically if a plane has been flying and has been inspected and maintained, missing old books is a very minor to non concern. Otherwise, I think your approach is very sound. Good video.
Loving this channel, thank you. What would be high air time and is that model specific? For instance are certain models/ makes with x air time considered high but another make/ model it would be considered low?
Thank you! Good question... I wouldn't throw out an exact number that fits all situations... kind of depends on the airplane. For example, while you can probably find some 30-40 year old airplanes with only a couple of thousand hours on the airframe, it's more rare to find a Cessna 206 with that low of time on it just because they are workhorses. So kind of depends on the airplane and also what it was used for. 7,000 hours of flying from two different owners over 40 years is a lot different than 7,000 hours at a flight school. You can bet the flight school plane has been put through many more hard landings than the other airplane. So, it's all kind of relative. Worth reading and inquiring about the airplane's full history. Good to think about how many hours per year was it flying and what kind of flying was it.
Hi Charlie! I dicovered your chanell resently and I like it so far. Another considerations will be A): high/low wing aircrafts; B): single/multi engine and C); normaly or turbocharged engine airplanes. About of the rest of your sheets, I agree. Greetings from NE patagonia, Argentina.
Thanks Walter. That's a good point... I didn't mention it because I assumed that your spreadsheet would all be of the same type of airplane (ex. normally aspirated 182's, which would answer the three points you mentioned). But if you were using the spreadsheet for different types of airplanes then yes you'd definitely want this info in some additional columns.
Also location. I found a plane for the lowest airworthy price I’ve ever seen for the model I want, ended up flying across the country to California to purchase it and then ferry it back on my own
While airframe time is important, a well cared for plane can have many 1000s of hours (easily 10,000+) on the airframe as long as the engine, prop, etc. are well maintained.
Some Air frames have Life limited components (spars, wings, etc.) keep this in mind. A prebuy by a model specific knowlagable A&P is a must. Remember, the purchase price is just the opening anty. I would budget 15-25% of the purchase price to take care of any deferred maintenance.
In Canada, in the air, planes are passed on the right !! I just saw a plane pass yours on the left. Is that not a rule in the USA. I do plan to fly into the states in the future, so I would like to know. More things to research !!
Hey Charlie, any chance you'd be willing to share your spreadsheet with me? I'm not actually looking at buying a plane, but I wanted to use your data to create a regression problem to see how much each of these factors ACTUALLY matters to the cost of the plane. I'm obviously very willing to share results with you!
Lost logs shouldn't be a deal breaker IF there are sufficient logs AFTER the lost log period. Example: '76 C182 missing logs from 79-83, but detailed logs after. All other things the same, this should not be a deal breaker. Thoughts?
Great information! I have a question though. Would you recommend financing a plane if you can’t afford to pay it out and it’s a good deal or just let it go and hope for another one once you have the money?
It's a good question but one that is so hard to answer without all of the context. In general, my philosophy on the finances of flying comes down to living within your means (spending less than you make), and then investing the remainder into things that are important to you (could include anything here really... retirement, relationships, hobbies, etc.). If flying can fit into that without breaking rule #1 then for me it's been a high ROI type activity just because of how much I enjoy life when I'm able to fly. When you say you "can't afford to pay it out" I'm not totally sure what that means but it sounds like it might be a little close to the edge in terms of spending all of your remaining money on flying, which probably isn't super safe but it's really a personal decision. I waited to own until I knew that I could afford it plus some buffer so that I wasn't spending all of my residual cash on flying (because then I would probably resent it). Lots to this topic and kind of hard to answer in the confines of the comments section here, but it's a good question to be asking. Next week I have a video coming out about the finances of flying so I hope that's helpful!
Thanks! That helps me out a lot. Although it’s sad to say, I’ll probably have to wait awhile to pursue aviation. I’ll be waiting for that video. Excited to see it!
You might add ADs status to your model, it could be very costly to comply with or it could add value if already done. It may go something like this: 0 = No ADs 1 = ADs have been done 2 = ADs not done 3 = airplane has reoccurring ADs
Hi Chuck - as of this writing I don't have it for download anywhere but I tried to explain it in this video so that you knew what columns I recommended and what data I would be looking for. Hope that helps!
May I respectfully suggest a factor in ownership that can be a dealbreaker? Insurance. Some aircraft are prohibitively expensive depending on your experience level. Adding a student pilot to a PA 28 is relatively inexpensive. Adding them to a less forgiving plane can be thousands per year. This sadly narrows your options unless you are able to afford the premium.
Thanks for the addition. You're right, depending on the airplane it can be really expensive. The 182 has been really reasonable on the insurance front but also partly depends on the hull value. Insuring $100k is different than insuring $500k. But mine has always been less than my car insurance which has been nice.
Yes, the insurance is often less than car insurance. If you attempt to learn in a taildragger such as a Maule, it is more often imposing. A student I taught in a Maule said his premium was shocking. Depends on many factors of course....deductible, etc. New types of aircraft are often difficult to insure I’m told. The tried and true Pipers and Cessnas are usually quite reasonable. Thanks for your excellent contribution to aviation.
As you build this list, would you consider dates? For example, in the last months I’ve seen prices of GA planes skyrocket. Or would you consider that a bubble that will later blow and bring back down prices?
that's a really good point. It certainly wouldn't hurt to add dates on there. With a large enough sample size you might be able to spot some trends. And I agree, things have really gone up lately. Not sure if they're actually selling for that much or if asking prices are just inflated, but it does seem that a lot of other things have gotten inflated in the pandemic, too (RV's, boats, etc.).
@@AirplaneAcademy interesting, and ironic, that luxury items have gone up in price during the pandemic. I was in the market for a training plane, wanting to go all the way to CPL, but everything have been inflated. To the point that it won't make financial sense right now because it would be almost the same as just renting. So I am holding back and see what the market will do, then decide if to get one or not.
Gosh, totally depends on how much you have to add to make it IFR certified and what you add when you do (steam gauge, glass?). Such a range. Could be a little or a lot. Would need make some assumptions about what an airplane is already equipped with and determine out how much you need to add to it.
Other things to look for is has the plane been out of annual for a few years or more. Another one is low engine time per year. Lastly, the pre-buy is your friend. I also want to know the ADs and SDs for a plane and that they have all been complied with.
Good point worth raising. The engine would probably be the worst impacted in that situation. Engines might have low time but that time could be spread out over too many years. For example, an engine with 200 hours might only be 10-15% to TBO on paper, but if those 200 hours came over 30 years, it's probably actually way closer to TBO than that (if not already there) based on its condition. TBO's have guidance from the manufacturer but it's also a bit subjective and comes down to the unique engine and its health. Plenty of stories of people taking well-maintained engines safely far past TBO.
Planes are priced according to engine time, airframe condition and panel. You get what you pay for...if the plane is hyper cheap you won't care about engine time, logbooks or an old panel. The airframe is everything. If the airframe is rusted, cracked, bent, or has 20,000 hours on it, pass. The rest of the stuff you can get new and end up with a better plane.
