I think my favorite part of this is that, for a brief moment, Lorgar could have been brought back from the brink. Throughout this interesting little canon you've made, Lorgar was always trying to bond with his brothers. He just wanted to spend time with his brothers but was rejected every time. They were more tolerant of Mortarion and Angron, who actively delighted in antagonizing them, than of weird preachy Lorgar. Now they're letting him talk, they're trying to be there for him and for a brief moment, they had the chance to save him. Then Ferrus kicked him from the call. It's ironic that he's the one to do it since he's mostly played the part of mediator and peacekeeper for them all. Lorgar needed them now more than ever, and Ferrus did what they've done in all of his appearances, he slammed the door in Lorgar's face. I think that's the moment that Lorgar lost all chance at redemption, when his brothers chose to silence him in his heartbreak and reject him for the last time. If they'd supported him, they could have gone before the Emperor as a united front and tried to hold him accountable for going too far. It obviously wouldn't have worked, but it would have told Lorgar that he could count on his brothers when it mattered even in spite of all the crap they give him and that sense of belonging might have kept him loyal, if only to them rather than to the Emperor. Instead, they told him what they've always told him, he has no place among them and no value in their eyes.
That’s… an interesting point. I think if all 12 Primarchs teamed up, Big E would have to listen to them. I don’t think his usual tricks for silencing people would work
The only issue is the emperor was completely right in his decision in handling lorgar the way he did however lorgers own ego and self delusion barded him from seeing the truth the emperor revealed to him yes his brothers have shunned him but that was for a good reason because to be allied with lorgar was to garter the emperors annoyance which no one wanted now if the emperor explained in detail what exactly his goal was most of them(bartering angron and mortarion) would understand fully what the situation was and the true nature of lorgar
@@michaelalridge1509 Look, I like the lore and all but clearly if you take a step back (or 10) and look at it objectively, then the Emperor did clearly not handle the situation in the correct way. The objectively correct way would be the one that resulted zero bloodshed and humbled yet still loyal legion. For I refuses to believe that the Emperor wanted one of the primarchs that was the least oriented towards combat turned away. No, and this is just what I believe, so feel free to correct me if you think its crazytalk (I just did 48h of exam prep, I am tired man hah). But the "perfect" solution had been to handle Logar and the humbling of him in private. The pride would be less hurt. Then talk to the legion with him at the side of the Emperor, humble them but don't make Logar bow to his brothers. Lastly don't burn the city's population, it is counter productive.(was the population also killed? were they not allowed to leave the city??) If the city needs to destroyed then do so with no civil casualties. Just for the love of holy terra, don't do everything the emperor did, which mindblasted Logar.
@@michaelalridge1509 You are correct, of course. Canon-Lorgar was definitely in the wrong and was already a scumbag before Monarchia. My comment was in reference to the version of Lorgar presented here, who seems far more human and sympathetic. He seems as broken up about the countless innocents slain as by the destruction of Monarchia itself. Even as pointed out in this video, the Emperor's response was straight out the of the wrathful deity's playbook. He came down and had his angels lay waste to the city that offended him and put the denizens to the torch while forcing the perpetrators to kneel in the ashes. That said, I am one of those people who lays a lot of blame at the Emperor's feet for how things went with Lorgar. True, he can't be held responsible for how Lorgar was raised, but he can be held responsible for simultaneously telling Lorgar "religion bad, gods not real" while presenting himself to everyone as a shining golden giant with a flaming sword who descended from the heavens and threw down the gods of every society he "uplifted". He tore down any established religion, assuming it to be a front for Chaos, and then demanded blind obedience to his new religion from all his subjects. People can be forgiven for coming to the wrong conclusion. Would Lorgar have listened if the Emperor explained the nature of Chaos and its connection to the religion he practiced? Hard to say, but what I understand of canon-Lorgar suggests not. Heck, it's possible the Emperor could have used Lorgar. Adjust the Imperial Truth to add a theistic element and "reveal" it to Lorgar and let him go hog wild spreading that. Create a Chaos entity sympathetic to humanity, kind of like what ended up happening with fewer steps. The Emperor gets his human supremacist rhetoric because he knows that this new Chaos god is ultimately mankind's servant, he gets an added defense against Chaos, and he finds a use for a problem child.
Bringing up the 2nd and the 11th is a huge nono to all the primarchs. What ferrus did was the right call. The emperor was originally gonna have Logar killed if not for Russ. Gar will see that was the right call as he was blinded by anger. Forgiving Bobby however is gonna take time.
I know. I mean, Holy Shit, he ignores Angron and Konrad burning through the Geneva Checklist, but Lorgar takes a while making peaceful, prosperous and compliant worlds but oh no, his Golden Fedora squeezed his head a bit too tight that day and now everything is ruined forever.
@@randomcenturion7264 it does lend more credence to the idea that primarchs were supposed to just be tools of war, and the Emperor was crushing Lorgar because he was trying to be something other than a conqueror. If you think about the design of the space marine, the Emperor makes space marines dependent on humanity so they can't replace it. It's even possible that after humanity awakened as a psychic species the Emperor intended to wipe out all space marines just like the thunder warriors. I can't remember which primarch it was (I think it was Angron), but I do recall one of them noted that they were not the Emperor's sons, they were just tools for war and it went against their purpose to try and dream of something else like Lorgar. Other legions like the Ultramarines, Alpha Legion or Imperial Fists conquered planets and turned them into prosperous Imperial compliant worlds. But those guys would move on the moment the world was compliant to go conquer the next. Lorgar was lingering on compliant worlds and the Emperor was probably trying to nip Lorgar's accidental Empire building in the bud before it caused a civil war (ironic).
The emperor is no God. For he himself makes mistakes, and is just as flawed as any man. He cannot even guide his own sons properly. Are these characteristics of a God? He is kind, and good to some of his sons. Whilst cold and uncaring to others. The very least he could've done to send imperial forces to help Angron. And in Lorgar's case, a much less horrible and inhumane punishment.
@@SnakeRoadComicsOfficial3677 It's not too late to save him. Things are already better that Roboute is actually reaching out to him instead of just ignoring him for like 80 years.
Lorgar: You know what the worst part about all of this Robute? That you just stand there, trying to justify your actions instead of owning them. There was no “I’m sorry Lorgar” or “I fucked up Lorgar please accept my apology.” You just stand there, justifying your cowardice. Your fear of Father is stronger than your love for your brothers.
@@Briselance Yeah it would, but if you were in Lorgar's position, you'd feel the same. Lorgar needed someone to blame and lash out at. If he did that to the Emperor, he'd be dead. But Roboute, he is an easy target.
@@CJBerdomas If I were in Lorgar's position, lashing out at Roboute would still be most-unfair. Blaming Bobby G for something he actually tried to prevent will not right any wrong. It's just being abusive and a liar.
@@Briselance Say that when your father and brother razed your city to the ground, forcing you and your sons to watch, then afterwards burying the millions of dead. You’d not be in the state of mind to think logically and rationally. I am not saying Lorgar is right, I am saying that him lashing out and blaming Gulliman isn’t uncalled for. Which is more abusive: slaughtering millions of innocents because your dad thinks your brother is a failure, or lashing out at your brother over a perceived betrayal. I’m a Ultramarine player but in this situation, Gman IS in the wrong.
Remember how TTS started off with silly, comedic videos then developed its own sort of canon with narrative, dramatic tones, and small comedic moments from the now established characters? This. Right here. This is what you’re growing into. I’m so exited to see this series grow. My only advice, is don’t rush through the heresy too quickly. You have something special here. I’d love to keep watching these for a good while
I definitely don't wanna rush anything, but hopefully I can grow a bigger following and see if I can make this into a regular thing. Maybe higher an animator and artists to give their artistic style to this
When lorgar wants to be religious of the emperor it’s a problem but when the mechanicus want to pray to their god he suddenly want to say that he’s their god
Problem is, without Mars there wouldn't be a Great Crusade. There wouldn't be a victory over the Rangdan Empire. So Big E had no other choice but let them have their cult and in exchange get access to one of the largest industrial powerhouses in what been later known as imperial space. I mean, you could crusade with whatever Luna can produce, but then the whole reunification party may took millennia instead of centuries. Man is a grade A hypocrite and his ego is the size of a fucking planet, but this time, there was no other way.
If Lorgar hadn't mentioned the 2nd and 11th, i feel they would have continued to hear him out and let him vent. Talking about the Erased is one of the biggest no-no's for the Primarchs.
Ten thousand years after Lorgar Aurelian set pen to paper to create this tract, Guilliman began to read it. Rejoice, for I bring you glorious news. God walks among us. So ran the first two lines of the Lectitio Divinitatus.
When Leman Russ is trying to comfort you, you know it's bad. But at least he and the others were trying to be there for Lorgar. Despite their disagreements, they were brothers. Except for Perterabo. He's always been a dick.
@@Briselance what war time casualties. Citizens of monarchia were The most loyal People in The imperium at that time, than their lord came in and turned them To atmospheric ash.
@@arnerood690 He was there. He said he was glad that he'd decided to join that chat. I have no idea if he's an aspie, though as an irl aspie I'd be happy to get some rep
Oh... my... word... I've read about the burning of Monarchia. I've watched many people talk about it... But to actually HEAR what I've come to associate as the actual Primarchs' voices relay the *_TRUE emotional weight_* of what happened, through realistic and grounded dialogue... Oh my word... well done, VTN. Well done.
The previous vids showing these guys acting like bros made this feel way more heartbreaking. You got to see all these personalities talk about anime and music, and here they are after one of them literally genocided the other's city. It just feels way more fucked and I am 100% here for it
It's always been a pet theory of mine that the Razing of Monarchia was a lesson to both Lorgar and Roboute. Roboute was in the process of setting up an Astartes ruled kingdom. He was training his son on how to rule; to be governors and statesmen. He had already set up the Tetrarch system where he appointed four Astartes to rule regions of Ultramar. These Tetrarchs apparently outranked planetary governors at the time. This directly conflicts with the Emperor's stated plan of having a human ruled Imperium as stated in the Last Council.
The more I watch about 40k, the more I realize how much the custodies from TTS were right. The Primarchs needed an actual father figure, someone who would love them, be open with them about their own abilities and show them what the imperium was truly fighting against.
Makes no sense his most important tools that he couldn't afford to lose someone like Magnus that he wouldn't tell him about the warp. There's no way you can make it make sense. Your son that constantly goes in the warp and uses powers you didn't tell him about demons and gods? Bruh you left the entire Imperium hanging during the war because they didn't even know how to kill them. Then made them reliant on him and now they know fuck all.
I mean if you think about it with a few exceptions. The loyal primarchs were the ones that already had good parental figures and were looking for a ruler. The traitor primarchs were the ones that were looking for a father.
honestly what the emperor needed was humility. his biggest fault is assuming that he is above the mistakes and follies of human nature, while he may have the powers of a god, at the end of the day, for all his many years experiences and powers, he still but a human. the emperor being able to admit mistakes and take valid criticism could have saved his empire.
He went from the son and brother who wanted to be loved and to just help, to the bitter black sheep of the family that found another..."Family", that was willing to embrace him.
Not getting his way meaning his people murdered and his city burned while he is forced to kneel and watch, their is a reason only one person survived monarchia
Yeah, Mal was a bit of a dumbass. "Oh, I'll Force-Choke Horus, that'll show him!" Year Later (Horus making Mal his Bitch as he shows him every terrible thing he's doing and going to do while his soul is sapped on the Golden Throne) "You were right Uncle. This is pretty fun from the other side."
@@randomcenturion7264 How exactly is Horus a badass in that scenario? Malcador, a regular if powerful human, is holding back the 4 gods of chaos on his own, while the silver spoon demigod who became their slave taunts him?
@@OverLordRiper It isn't about being "badass" in this instance, its about inflicting pain and humiliation in return for the same. Malcador can hold them back, but however the contest between Horus and the Emperor goes, the chaos deities have won. The Imperium is ravaged and will never fully recover. Half of the emperor's sons (sans the missing two) are permanently against him, and he and Malcador know they can only hold the line even as that line crumbles under them...not unlike Cadia ten thousand years later. That is Horus' revenge here. It isn't about a great display of power to match or outdo Malcador and the Emperor, but to make them feel what he felt when he saw his brother's unpersoned: to see everything they stood for burned before their eyes, to feel redundant at best like the tools they considered the primarchs to be, to feel the agony of knowing that they're now probably doomed regardless of what they achieve past this point, and that it will all come to naught in a single breath if either of them falter. Horus was restrained and choked for mere moments, yet Malcador was redused to ash over the course of Hours while the emperor is locked constant torment and struggle for ten thousand years. Crossing franchises for a bit, I'm pretty sure Morgoth from the Silmarillion would look at that kind of revenge and go "yeesh!"
@@morgant.dulaman8733 Whose perspective is this? Horus'? Can't be, there was no Horus by the time he fought Big E, just an avatar of the chaos gods who thought he had agency. Malcador's? Emperor's? They very specifically sacrificed themselves staking everything on the future, not raging against the dying of the light (no, a single book by chaos fanboy adb doesn't negate all the other books and lore specifically showing that chaos hasn't won anything, up to and including the fact that Big E gave Vulkan a failsafe that would have forced a draw and severely weakened the chaos gods, giving humanity a chance, in the event that Horus beat him). Horus' motivations for accepting the powers of chaos don't even have anything to do with this event or his brothers. At it's very core, his fall comes from the fact that he believed he was too good to die, and especially die ignominously, poisoned by some random sword on some random world. It's the reason he accepted chaos both the first and the second time (after Leman purged him with Gugnir). He literally tells Magnus ''I know that Erebus is manipulating me and that the visions shown to me don't have to be true'' and then he does it anyway. Because the alternative was dying, and anything was better than that.
I like that these vids appear to go from comedic and non-canonical displays of sibling rivalry between 18 trainwrecks cast into demigods to much more serious showcases of the Primarchs expressing their emotions about their lives that lean more towards canon. All in all, pretty good. Also, the choice to make Ian McKellen Malcador is so blindingly obvious yet it fits so well.
"Ah!" Gulliman awoke with a start. "Son?" He looked rapidly between his father and Malchador. "Are you alright lad?" The latter gave him a once-over. "You looked to have slipped off while your father and I were finalizing our plans." "oh right." The primarch shook his head as though trying to cast out the nightmare of things to be. "I suppose it was merely fatigue. Remind me how far we are in planning to get my brother back on track." "Ah," the Emperor grabbed a notebook. "Well, Malchador and I agreed you were right that burning Monarchia and humiliating Lorgar and his sons is well and truly excessive. Nevertheless, we can't just keep giving vague warnings, hints, or off-the-side talks either by you or by myself." "Oh." Gulliman's spine became more rigid than a Custodians halberd. "Therefore, Malchador and I agreed on a middle option. We're going to call the legion to a nearby habitable (yet sparsely populated) moon. There I will make Lorgar and his sons kneel as before, but not to humiliate them. Instead, I shall only do it as long as needed to explain that this hyper-ritualistic manner of following me isn't nearly what I had in mind. I'll explain that I want Lorgar as my son, not just a servant, and I want him to accept my love as well as that of his brothers, both for himself, his sons, and the people of the Imperium-and to have a personal part in sharing that to those people." "Oh." Gulliman felt his shoulders relax just a bit. "I will then explain this is why I want him back on the front leading compliance missions, winning hearts over so that the harder hands of Russ, Dorn, and Perturabo, or weapons of fear such as wielded by Konrad, need not be necessary. Once that's done, I'll invite them to rise and feast with me before explaining to Lorgar in private that I will, with Magnus' help, give a better explanation of who and what I am later, which he can then use for writing a *proper* book on the subject, as well as mention I wish to run an investigation into more suspect members..." "You mean Erebus?" "Yes him-to make sure there are no corrupting influences within the legion, as well as custodians to both serve as advisors for which worlds to visit and provide personal accounts regarding how they know me. Maybe Endymion. You can then reaffirm that you'll help make sure the city is well-managed so that he can return to work with peace of mind." Gulliman smiled. "I think that will work." "Do not be too gentle." Malchador warned. "He may be family to you, but he also leads a world, built a city, and arranged the lives of many people according to his words. We should not want him shattered to the point of alienation, but he must understand he cannot lord over others in such an intrusive manner." "Of course," father and son answered as one. This would be a chastisement and a correction. They would not coddle the primarch as if he was a mere child, yet they'd ensure he had direction and an understanding of how to improve and a firm understanding of where and how to advance once it was over.
The sad part is that deep down, they know Lorgar is right. The Emperor sees them as little more than tools and ultimately HE knows best. 10,000 years of war could have been prevented if Robute was give 10 minutes to talk to his brother.
It wouldn't have changed anything. I don't even think, if given the chance, that RG would've made any headway with Lorgar, because Lorgar's whole schtick is "Humanity needs faith to function". More than that, I seriously believe Erebus still would have found a way to corrupt Lorgar. Honestly if it wasn't Monarchia it would've been something else.
@@lykos2738 so his whole stick is an absolute fact of humanity. The emperor has always been wrong, will always be wrong. He deserves his seed upon his golden chair, made his personal Hell last for all eternity.
@@charlottewalnut3118 Well no, not really. At least in the context of Lorgar, it didn't really matter what he was worshipping as long as it could validate what he wanted to do. He needed a reason, an excuse to do the terrible things he wanted to do. The Emperor gave him that until he took it away. Lorgar needed to be able to say "I don't want this, but God does. So I have to do this". Essentially he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. Lorgar wasn't converting entire planets to the imperial cult for the Emperor, no, he was doing it because it gave him the excuse to torture and slaughter billions.
@@lykos2738 Because the Emperor was not ordering his other children to do the same, and were indeed doing the same, at the same time? Or what, you think the compliances were being done with kisses and hugs? Lorgar was trying to rationalize the actions of a massive POS like Big E, glorifying the "well, if Dad says so, it must be right. If I cannot think or act outside of Dad's permission, he must be a god" he was FORCED to adopt (because the other choice was death). Can you really blame him when even the smallest bit of humanity he had left, of hope, was destroyed by the same guy who let the mechanicus worship him, ordered horrible acts made upon people and puts himself in place of god, as humanity's ONLY path to truth?
Yo please keep churning these out. Take all the time you need just please keep making these. Some are serious, some are funny, and all are fantastic. Great work my friend
Too bad that Guilliman wasn't that nice about it... he felt bad but he should have acted like he felt bad and being there for Lorgar, he literally taunts him for "throwing a tantrum" in the First Heretic book.
Which oddly enough, Lorgar taunts right back when he and Angron go on their "Road Trip." "Have you lost your temper, Roboute?" "I will gut you." "You HAVE lost your temper."
Emperor deserves to rot on the golden throne for eternity. I hope that it hurts at least jus as much as it hurted Lorgar to be punished for his loyality and dedication. Death for the false emperor!
The fact that Sanguinius was even shaken by this and told Lorgar to at least talk to Guilliman just goes to show how bad of an idea raising Monarchia to the ground was, i mean even Fulgrim in this video was like "oh...nope, i'll just uh...i'll pop back later". As an avid blood angel fan i absolutely blame Lorgar for the death of Sanguinius but damn it this actually made me feel sorry for him like man didn't deserve that-
Poor Lorgar. He did really think the Emperor loved him and all his sons. He did not, they were simply tools to him. And Malcador confesses that they always planned for some of the Legions to rebel so they could cull them at the end of the Great Crusade - it just happened _before they were ready_ .
The more I get to know Pre-Horus heresy lore the more I see the Big E as more of a failed ruler and a teribile father than an omnipotent savior of the human race.
Once again you've knocked it put of the park with the way you portray them on these audio dramas. Thank you so much for the time and effort you've drafted into this one.
These videos are absolutely amazing. Fantastic job. I truly appreciate the wholesome brotherly vibes of the other Primarch videos, but I think it's awesome you've dabbled into the more serious lore events. You're truly doing something here and we all appreciate it as it breathes life into the setting - and honestly, makes the character feel so relatable. Primarchs are superhuman - but human, so its great that you have capptured that so well. Hope to see more coming in the near future 😊
As much as I love the funny ones, I have to admit your writing and understanding of the primarchs is amazing. I personally never cared much for Lorgar but this made me feel for the man. Great job, keep it up!
Stuff like this I love,because in spite of everything how different they all are, they are still Brother's and it hurts them to see Lorgar like this and for what happened to the 2nd and the 11th.
All lorgar wanted to do was guide people, create glorious creations, and love his god and his fall peers. He was a being meant for creation and love forced to be a being of destruction and death, and when he wasn’t fast enough nor good enough at killing the emperor destroyed his world. I think lorgar is probably the most sympathetic traitor primarch
For all the faults and my dislike towards Lorgar, this is the one scenario I feel for him. I never believed that humanity should reject faith. This was one flaw I already saw in the Emperor's plan. And here we see the result. A man devastated, his foundations shucked. One can't fault Lorgar's embrace of the Space Brain tumors. He saw one divinity hate him and saw another embrace him. All the talk of brotherhood gone when going against their father.
What’s even more let’s say disturbing for a lack of better words, is that something like this already happened before. Basically, before destroying the last church on Terra, the Emperor decided to have a chat with the priest. Maybe try to lure him to his side or at the very least understand where the priest is coming from. Anyway after the Emperor explained the entire 40k lore up to that point to the priest (it’s believed he told the priest about Chaos as well). The priest presented him with a question followed by a warning. The question the priest asked was what’s going to be different this time, what sets the Emperor apart from all the other tyrants that have plagued Mankind. To which the Emperor simply replied, “The difference is that i am right”. After that the priest warned him that humans will see him as a God whether he wants it or not, and after that he simply walked into the fire and died with his church.
I've seen lots of people talking about how monarchia was Lorgars fault because he was preaching oh he was told not to like I'm not a God but I'm a giant golden being with flaming sword and "Emporer of Mankind" uniter of all of humanity but I'm just a Normal person tehe Lorgar was just trying to do what he was made for and gets hated and ridiculed for it Also mostly the rich had the opportunity to escape since they could skip the masses trying to run
I'm actually in semi-agreement. Yes. Lorgar was warned to stop spreading worship of The Emperor. Yes, it was wrong of him to think there would be no consequence. And yes, he was moving too slowly. But Holy FUCK, even Roboute called Moanrchia overkill. This was 100% Emps having a Golden Fedora moment. He speaks of dogma and fanaticism, but he razed a loyal, prosperous, and peaceful city because he refuses to accept his responsibilities as a deity but doesn't lift a Fucking finger for the walking war crimes that are Angron and Konrad. Monarchia's Burning was a lesson in hubris, but not Lorgar's alone. The Emperor's arrogance and outright tyranny that day pushed Lorgar to the vile words of Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Him falling is still his own fault, but damn if Big E didn't Fuck the pig on this one. Almost as badly as "Recruiting" Angron.
The emperor should have told Lorgar about chaos. If he understood why the Emperor wanted to ban religion he could have been the most spiritual fortified of all the primarchs.
This Video aside, which was great as usual @Voxcast To Nowhere, i like the Voice-Choices of Lorgar and Fulgrim in this one more than the previous ones (though about Fulgrim it was a different, but understandable one).
Idk why the emperor thought, dressing in big shiny golden armour, carrying around a massive sword of fire to worlds without hope would help his case with not wanting to be seen as a god
This is the first video of this channel that I watched, and I thought it was an actual official audio drama. The discord noises and Fulgrim's pink cat-ear headphones caught me off-guard.
f*cking OW. I never felt bad for Logar until now. And damn, Ferrus kicking him out of discordia. It had to be done, but that, that must have hurt everyone there
This was,...this hits the feels man. Can't wait to see more of this. Tho I just wanna point out one thing Emps voice sounds alot like the Lions...maybe have it be more ominous....I don't have the words but still great vid and can't wait to see more
I've thought about changing his voice depending on who hears him Like, keeping Jonathan Keeble as his "true" voice around Malcador, Primarchs, and Custodes But, making it more "Be not afraid" biblical for humans and space marines
I feel that the Primarch that would go on about casualties of war while talking about children would be the Lion, the wolves would eventually step in when the inquisition was doing their shenanigans after all, the wolves are beasts but they are not heartless.
The Emperor plays the long game. He knew his sons would turn to chaos. I believe for humanity has to colonize The Warp for its long term survival. Because once the main Tyranid Hive Fleets show up.
