Lost grappling techniques of HEMA 

Dude awesome breakdown, I gotta quote one of my instructors “If what you do is good you will see it in other arts. If what you do is bad, you won’t see it in other arts” I just subbed 👍

In the oldest recordings of Irish collar & elbow wrestling they also used low boot kicks to the shin bones & ankles which they called "purring" to gain kuzushi for a collar & elbow throw. Later the purring (kicking) was removed and only collar & elbow throws remain. Both the Irish & the Welsh had collar & elbow wrestling cultures. But Irish were like the Filipinos in that after the colonizers from England banned swords among the indigenous Irish they replaced swords w/sticks and created a stick fighting culture to accompany their collar & elbow wrestling and bareknuckle boxing culture. The Welsh were renowned for their archery culture and they too had a collar & elbow wrestling culture. The Canary Islanders had a stick fighting culture (walking staff) and grappling culture. As ubiquitous as wrestling/grappling was to every ancient culture so was a form of stick or staff fighting in every culture. Because poor people couldn't afford swords so the developed stick fighting arts in every culture along w/grappling arts. Even biblical history records rods & staffs being weapons of defense. I still practice japanese Jo-jutsu (jodo), Escrima, recurve bow archery/traditional bow hunting, and I make shepherd slings from parachute cord which I practice w/two kinds: the long sling (a longer range weapon) traditionally tied about the waist and the short (more accurate) sling traditionally tied about the head. I find both stick/staff fighting arts compliment grappling/wrestling practice. And wrestling/grappling training compliments archery very well, since it strengthens the upper back muscles, wrists and grip strength needed in traditional archery (if you're drawing a 50-65 lb draw weight traditional recurve hunting bow.) I believe Mongolian jacket wrestling helps Mongolian archers develop strength & solid form for their archery. And Mongolian wrestlers claim their horseriding culture strengthens their legs and core for their wrestling. Symbiotic relationship between their horseriding, wrestling y archery prowess.

THANK YOU Chadi for this!! I admit I know next to nothing about HEMA, but pretty much everyone in the BJJ circles I hang out in online thinks there was little to no unarmed grappling at all in old European martial arts….thank you for giving me some material to show them!

Great video, I am working on some reconstruction of techniques and I always find it great for people from other grappling disciplines to talk about this. For the people wondering the well drawn images seem to be from Nicolas Petter, a german wrestler from 1630 (?) famouse for his victories and teachings.

Absolutely love that you are taking a look at this! Would be cool if you went through specific manuals like Fiore (italian swordmaster) in his book Flower of Battle has many moves and progressive counters to the moves. Would love your ideas on "iron gates" I can not get them to work against single legs. Be nice to hear your thoughts.

Grappling/Wrestling is the oldest recorded fighting art, it's even recorded in the biblical old testiment, it's ubiquitous to every ancient & modern culture on earth and when anthropologists rather recently found undiscovered cultures hidden deep in the amazon rain forest they too were found to have a complex wrestling/grappling culture as their unarmed fighting art. Also, ancient european pugilism was grappling based w/supplemental striking. Later the grappling/wrestling was seperated from the striking, creating two seperate dueling arts that evolved into spectator, gambling, sports. During the time of James Figg pugilism was still grappling body slams, striking, weapons training in the cudgel and backsword fencing.

Good video. This is the direction I want to take Aikido.

Wish European Grappling would've been better preserved how judo/juijitsu was.

I’ve just started incorporating grappling techniques with my new HEMA group. I’m interested to see how they’ll turn out learning the grappling side by side with the weapons fighting; I think they’ll end up being much more well rounded than most practitioners who love to hit each other with blunt steel bars but are too scared to take a fall lol. Nicolaes Petters treatise has some amazing similarities to judo I’ve noticed. Great vid as always.

Chadi your videos are always great, I have been interested in medieval grappling for years and think it is an overlooked source for modern day grapplers

Awesome! love watching HEMA videos, they are so interesting. It is so interesting how Grappling is so fundamental to all fighting styles. The truest human martial art!

1:25 - O soto gari (Belt grab and leg trip) 2:00 - Ko soto gari (Belt grab & leg sweep from the side) 2:40 - De ashi harai (same as above but while pulling) 3:10 - Tomeo nage (Circular throw) 3:45 - Tate shiho gatame (Mounted head & arm lock) 4:15 - Hida ishigi (Chin crank + spine lock + calf slicer) 4:45 - Ude gamari (Wrist lock to the arm) 5:30 - Gokyo (Under grip of the arm) 6:30 - Juji jime (Open guard) 7:00 - Ashi dori garami (Toe hold) 7:35 - Ippon seon nage (Hip throw) 7:45 - Conclusion

I did judo for 5yrs back in middle and high school and have regretted not continuing since(currently looking for a dojo post covid). For the last 6yrs I've been doing HEMA and the grappling similarities are striking. O-soto-gari is codified most commonly for sure, the tradition I study calls it the 'Gambarola.' I think judo in its methodologies has a lot of overlaps with western styles of thinking and teaching this material too. If you don't, check out the 'hero with a thousand holds' podcast, the host has been spearheading a revival of irish collar and elbow which almost amounts to judo with a couple more restrictions. Cool stuff.

I have those books as well, I thought it was very cool seeing karate kata application in old European wrestling manuals

Western and eastern people have the same body constitution, that`s why western ringen and eastern judo are very similar. Hand-to-hand combate is universal stuff, like an axe, sword, spare or bow and arrows. Who created first sword on the planet? Ancient chineese warrios or soldiers of Ancient Egypt? Maybe, it were people of Ancient India or Babilon? No answer. Unarmed fight has the same story. It was developed in different countries and continents for battle and self defence. We have wushu, jiujitsu, judo, karate from Asia and in the same time we have pankration, wrestling and boxing from Europe. Every style is greate, so explore them.

A lot of Hema guys I've met also do jitsu foundation Jujutsu (I'm guessing because both are university based) or Bartitsu etc.

Hey if you are interested in medival european grappling just search for "Kampfringen" which was the war/self defense system. It's from Germany or what it was back then, allows breaking the fingers, fishhooking, hair pulling and a lot more...

Some of the stuff looks more like catch wrestling with the ripping, tugging, hooking. We always seem to forget that as far back as the Greeks and Romans, Europeans have a very rich history of wrestling, throws, pins. Every culture does. As there are only so many ways of doing the same thing, it is no surprise it looks similar. The one diff I see with BJJ is the comfort being on the bottom where as wrestling styles predominantly like to get off their backs and back on top for control, crank, or submission.

Fascinating! Yet another great video, Chadi. Love this channel. Keep up the great work and I always look forward to your content.

Another great video. Love your Bohk, Judo& wrestling videos. Keep up the awesome work and if possible pump out some more HEMA content.

Man, this channel is great!! I've looking for videos and stuff to know a little the history about styles of combat. Chadi, could you make a video talking about Master Leitão? Master Leitão was one of the most important in the world to the development of Luta Livre Brasileira. I'm BJJ practitioner, but he was respected for all the people from BJJ, Judo, Wreslingl, Grappling, Muay Thay and other, here in Brazil.

Maybe you've done it before, but old Irish Collar and Elbow, and Breton Gouren, are old jacket wrestling styles. They have very similar techniques to Judo iirc love seeing historical martial art vids

In Tomiki style the technique at 1:16 is called gedan-ate. In randori I counter gedan-ate with wakigatame all the time. I thought that was unique because I was never taught how to counter that way and I've never seen or heard of anyone countering that way either. I saw a HEMA video online and I saw the someone countering gedan-ate with wakigatame and I thought that was so cool that some guy 500 years ago came up with something that I thought no one else in the world did.

I wish would of told me about this before you made it, I have friends who have done and taught HEMA for years.

I've done quite a bit of both Aikido and HEMA. The knife defenses often used in HEMA are against a Rondel which only has a point and no sharp edges. Therefore you can get away with Ikkyo movements as you haven't the same risk of being cut. It provides a more secure grip as opposed to Gokyo which reduces the risk of being cut at the expense of control.

Basic joint locks and throws are mostly universal. If you look at ancient artifacts depicting scenes of hand-to-hand combat from different cultures around the world, there are often striking similarities.

Awesome video, thanks!! I'm a HEMA practitioner and grappling used to be a fascinating subject for me. I don't have any prior wrestling or other grappling background. However, I asked a lot about how to improve my grappling and build a base for HEMA wrestling. The answer was Judo!! It is very similar to HEMA grappling!! So I started to train Judo now ;)

Traditional Jujitsu has many of these techniques as shown.

0:26 "OMGHERD GUYS STAAAHP!"

Are you allowed to kick and knee your opponent in swordfighting HEMA? I see many openings for low kicks and knees in HEMA fighting. And what about Muay Thai clinching techniques - are these allowed?

Great video as always, you are a true judo, oriental martial ars expert. The Simba and Scar part about tomoe nage was funny.

Wonderful video thanks!

This sword man are amazing. Thank you for sharing

Everything in the martial arts always appears to be lost doesn't it 😆

Another fascinating and informative video.

I always assumed that grappling is very common and effective against fully armored opponent.

about 20 years ago I suggested using judo stuf in HEMA and was told no cant do that , and hear we are

I love the old texts. In my own field I like to rediscover old techniques and perspectives which would be new now.

hey chadi can you cover FMA grappling? like dumog etc

Interesting to see a Judoka recognize HEMA. Hype. Yes, Knight wrestling was common, armor basically made grappling arts re-surge. Much later than Greek Pankration & Greco-Roman wrestling. Just like with Samurai with Ju Jutsu, the armor forced them to adapt their warfare.

Very good video , like always .

Anyone done any research on the european "folkwrestling" styles, like Swedish "Kragkast" (collarthrow) or Glima in order to see similarities with the old depictions?

Wow. I am really impressed

Thank you sir have you read the book called the story of catch talks about the history from 1820 to 1850

does anyone else notice how enormous the calves are in the old pictures?

At 3:51 the leg hook in the hema was a bit different. Right leg went under left and hook on opponents right. What manual was that one from?

Please note that the icepick grip is so prevalent in dagger techniques probably because it was more effective against people in armor so it was more commonly used

"Lost"? You can literally learn the basics of this at every school and college in the Western world.

I contemplate suicide everyday until I notice Chadi just uploaded a video - then I change my mind.

Chadi 👍☺👂

Excellent

interesting stuff. cheers

could you do one on Pakistani malh malakhro - its one of the lesser known sports out there

Do Ringen!

6:70 Looks like a sweep to the left. A old timey Scissor Sweep variation maybe?

In the book "art of fiorei " there are a lot of hand to hand techniques , all similar to japanese jujutsu techniques

God video

you should make a video about vật the traditional wrestling style of the vietnamese.

I would strongly look up Adorea longsword fight duel. Highlights how dynamic a longsword duel can be.

@7:35 Because of how the text is written I'm not certain, but is it Middle French as opposed to the Modern French? As you can tell I have many interests.

The technique at 04:15 actually looks like an old Lou Thesz technique called the stepover toehold facelock.

Ghost of tsushima and sekiro both failed to include throws in their interpretation of blade combat and that's a terrible shame. I mentioned this on a few video game forums but those kids couldn't have a technical discussion for their life! Video game forums maybe the greatest Bastion of stupidity online today

I really don't know why these fundamental techniques seem so "un" fundamental when it looks obvious to me that they were universal... Why people seem to think that its just a Japanese jujutsu thing, just seems so ridiculous and why people seem so "blind" to this, that grappling is a human thing and dates back to when it was probably taught from childhood when people were running around just surviving amongst their tribes... I know when we were kids we would often wrestle to test our "martial" prowess, or play fight with wooden swords or sticks, but just didn't think of it in that it was a way of possibly killing or maiming... It was more like play wrestling where we did it on grassy fields or play areas... Nobody got seriously hurt, but sometimes your pride did!!

looks like those swordmen gave up on their sword very quickly

Psst, look into the Arditi and what they were trained in.

I'ma use these in jujitsu

Could you please look over Fiore Grappling Specifically when it comes to HEMA?

first argument and I'm out, longsword is very long so there is not much grappling. DUDE.

Muay Thai also has leg sweeping 👍

Max was here

The first one always came naturally to me, used it in many fights growing up.

Looks like judo or vale tudo? But I like it!

Bizde Ertuğrul Gazi ve Osman bey dizilerini izleyenlere kızıyorlar birde buyrun beyler

Why are we not all talking about the ref's stick spin at 0:35?

🖐👺 five stars !!

If you'd like to talk to HEMA grappling experts, I can put you in touch with some. Grab a copy of "Medieval Wrestling" by Jessica Finley. ISBN 1937439119. I've heard Jess was a judoka, but I've never asked her directly. She's also on Facebook if you wanted to reach out to her. As HEMA is a broad topic, covering 600+ years of extinct combat systems, there are a lot of grappling styles. At least in the US, the major grappling-centric tournaments focus on German Ringen, which Jess' book is a solid introduction. There's also grappling where weapons are involved. And much of armored combat involves grappling. I'm my experience, lots of HEMA grapplers cross train in BJJ or Judo. The Ringen community is currently too small to be self-sustaining. However, if techniques are applied in period appropriate clothes, they're a bit different than Judo. In particular, things like grabbing the collar are not easy in closely fitted medieval clothing.

Theres really very few techniques u actually need to master a grappling art...u dont really need all of them....juz like u dont use every word in a language

Well thw human body can only be moved so many ways

Which manual is this one he is showing?

Grappling is like dieting to lose weight....it all works if u do it right

baji 1:15

The problem is these manuals can be a problem with the wording being a bit hard to make out or not very detailed in description, the drawings can be misleading or really so bad it's hard to tell what exactly it is, I would not call with that guy is doing a guard you can't see what he's doing with his other leg and going by what says is manual it's a push, you can check it out here by the way with translations. www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Nicolaes_Petter

Google translate is capable of translating from Latin.

Your video shows many engravings taken from "“ _Klare Onderrichtinge der Voortreffelijcke Worstel-Konst_ " written by Nicolaes Petters, a Dutch merchant of the 17th century. Dutch traders had got formal exchanges with Japanese for almost 70 years when it was published and it is not unlikely (though impossible to confirm) that what we see here was in fact influenced by what they witnessed in Japan.

KILIÇ TEHLIKELI OLMUYORMU SPORDA BI YERE KADAR OYLE DEGILMI

these are dutch techniques from the VOC erawich they could have easily have taken from other colonised lands such as indonesia or their trading times with japan

I think these techniqes start to lost since European use gun powder

Thank you for this video. I always wondered why Europeans did not discover jujitsu techniques. Now I see that they did after plate armor was discarded.

And mma guys think they can defeat seasoned hema practitioners 😂

Get over it.

6:00 suuuure....I'm calling bullshido

This is ridiculous, bro. The HEMA guys are just attaching modern grappling technique to a shitty revival of old longsword techniques. These HEMA guys are more cosplayers than they are swordsmen. Here's the key: if you learn how to close on a guy who is wielding a long sword, then you use modern grappling to take the guy down. If you want to win, you will grapple. The shit the hobbyists are using is MMA and BJJ. A lot of cosplayers who get into this hobby are not fighters. They get into it with the fascination of King Arthur and for Europeans who have lineage in the swordplay, are using the hobby as a way to connect to that. Guys who think they are fighters will figure out that the swordplay is dogshit when it comes to defeating someone. Unless you are ready to cleave someone in half or run them through with a sword for real, then the only way to win these silly cosplay matches is to grapple a motherfucker down and beat him with submission. In terms of grappling in the HEMA days, there are old training guides that address this shit in Italian and Spanish swordplay. They pale in comparison to what Japanese jiu-jitsu did for transitioning from edged weapon to empty hand. These HEMA motherfuckers are still trying to figure this out and are unfortunately saying that Asian/oriental grappling innovation IS HEMA grappling. When it's not. Take a closer look at it, bro. This is bullshit. You can tell when a guy drops his weapon and goes for a leg takedown or a bear hug....bullshit.