Love these spells as a player. Hate them as a DM. 

Another thing that can be bad about banishment is the whole banishing a creature to it's native plane part of the spell. Depending on the type of campaign you are running, the players might be on a different plane than the one their characters are native to. So in a worst case scenario, forget missing out on a battle, a charector could get shut out of the entire campaign.

One spell that I, the DM, hate when my players cast is Teleport. Because suddenly we are back in a town I haven’t thought about for 6 sessions and now I gotta remember all the townsfolk I definitely didn’t make notes for.

One time we got hit with hypnotic pattern. Only the caster passed. They then cast darkness which smothered the pattern. Nothing to see, nothing to be hypnotized by. That gal was the most creative caster player I’ve ever seen

Had a really fun encounter in a Planescape game. We stumbled into some weak enemies that had Banishment, and banished a player. The trick is though in Planescape all the players are stuck in Sigil, the city of doors. Well, Banishment sends that player 'home' and then they have an encounter in their home and during that minute. If their other party members don't break that concentration, that player gets to stay home, instead of be stuck in Sigil. It had this very nice combat to 'save' their friend on one side of the table, and a heartfelt return home with the knowledge that they might stay and give up the adventure or abandon their friends... or return and finish helping the multiverse. It was a very fun encounter, BUT it was set up to be. I had 'home' encounters for each player set up, because I didn't know who or how many might get caught by the Banishment. And the homebrew enemies only had like 10hp so killing them was pretty easy.

As a DM, I gave Banishment to Strahd and successfully banished the Peace Cleric who was holding the Sunsword and doing other cleric "buff stuff". Strahd cast Banishment and then moved back through the floor so he couldn't be attacked and let his minions do the dirty work. I had him pop up to attack on his turns. It was starting to look grim for the party after a few rounds and would have definitely resulted in a TPK if I hadn't intentionally cast a different concentration spell. So yes, Banishment is too powerful sometimes for a DM. P.S. Also, I'm really starting to hate Guidance as both a DM AND a player.

Ice knife: love it as a player. Tells you if the target has a good AC, also tells you if the target and all surrounding creatures have good Dex saves. Really great if you have a high initiative half caster in a caster heavy party. Gives the rest of the party some really good info on unknown creatures in the first round of combat. As a DM: lots of time spent on a spell resolution when you already know this information and hopefully planned the encounter around your existing knowledge to make an appropriate level of challenge.

A pretty common theme for me is disabling control spells. It's satisfying as a player to completely lock down an enemy and the DM usually has multiple opponents to run but losing an entire turn or multiple turns as a player feels terrible and I hate to do that as a DM. What I like to do instead is give problem solving moments like spike growth or wall of fire. Enemies can challenge and restrict players without making them useless

Note: Otilukes Resilient Sphere can be interesting if you know one of the Players can cast disintegrate, especially if it is one of their higher level spell slot, but not the highest, as to drain their spell slots a bit. Similarly, it can be interesting to have an object or creature (or even multiple) that has to be destroyed, and if that's done the disintegrate spell ends. Point being: There needs to be a challenging, but not impossible way to get rid of it, and it should shake up the way they play in an interesting way for it to be good. Try to target specific weak points at certain times, and at other times allow them to play out their full strength, and allow them to do what they can do best in combat. As a player, you should both know that your character contributes to combat because of their specific strengths, but also feel their weaknesses and find a way to deal with them when they come up, and here is where teamwork comes to shine. It doesn't need to be normal that something like this comes up, but every now and then it's needed

I actually like Hypnotic Pattern for the very same reason you dislike it. I've had combats before, where a player failed 4 or 5 saves in a row (sad Barbarian-who-dumped-Wisdom noises). With Hypnotic Pattern that won't happen, unless your other players are really bad teamplayers.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere notably lacks the immunity to Dispel Magic that both Wall of Force and Forcecage have. From my experience, even a mid-level party could have the tools to deal with it.

You've touched upon a problem that D&D spellcasting has had since basically forever... The design of save-or-lose spells results in a very different experience whether it's the player or the DM using it. Even getting hit by a Hold Person (just an example, outside of the purview of your video since it's not as great for PCs to use) is a similarly terrible experience for a player who isn't rolling well on saving throws. As a DM you can balance against egregiously powerful spells by playing the Resource Management game, but the players usually only have their one character to take actions with.

11:36 While readied actions are limited, the enemy doesn't necessarily know the trigger condition for them to avoid triggering it. Also, you mention loving phantom steed as a player, but you also recognize that this mobility is way too powerful as a DM. So if a player picks it you have the opposite problem. Now they can do the same powerful tactic you mentioned having little counters.

8:15 "It is just not something that I like doing. I can just feel how that would be." This is why I love your channel man. You put yourself in the shoes of the others at your table. More people need to do that.

Fun fact about banishment: if the party is playing in a low-mid level campaign where they've been whisked away to another plane and have to do the adventure in that plane, and an enemy manages to keep concentration on Banishment for the full minute, then that player's character is out of the campaign unless you somehow give them the ability to travel back to the plane the rest of the party is on. So it might take them out of the action for much longer than one combat, or they might have to roll up a new character! Though I think Resilient Sphere could be fun as a defensive measure for enemy mages, since if an enemy mage uses this on themselves then they've basically cast banishment on themselves, and players might like it when enemies banish themselves. Also, it can be really fun if there's a big pool of lava nearby to push the trapped mage into, since the players can point and laugh at the screaming mage who only has 36 seconds left on his resilient sphere before he dies in horrible agony from lava

Had to deal with banishment once as a player. I enjoyed the challenge of trying to break the concentration of the caster so we could get our teammate back. But if we had failed, man oh man it would have sucked for that player. Once they got banished, everybody else basically went all out against that one enemy until they died.

9:14 Human (Mark of Passage) from Eberron can get Phantom Steed as well, actually one the best expanded spell list you'll ever see.

I think Feeblemind should get an honorable mention here. Fail your save and you can't communicate, cast spells, or really interact with the other characters in any meaningful way.

Wow, I had a evil/not evil game where the BBG crossed paths with the payers part way through the campaign. The BBG used mass suggestion (took 3 cast) to recruit the PCs as his new Lieutenants to replace the one they just killed. The PCs spent the rest of the campaign leading armies and laying wast to the lands all while trying to brake the suggestion. When they finally did the common folk feared them and they where more than ready to go seek out the BBG.

I would add feeblemind to this list. Basically the same logic as banishment but there's no enemy concentration to break, it's just a permanent deletion of any caster, based on a single save. If your party has greater restoration, it's just a boring spell slot trade like resilient sphere. If not, someone has to throw their character's dignity out the window and RP a mentally-disabled person until you can get to someone who does... very sketchy and uncomfortable position to be in. I guess I don't love it as a player either, but at least allows for some "nonviolent" neutralization of enemy mages. The 30-day re-saves are made with an Int score of 1, so even casters with Int save proficiency will probably be out for many months.

suprised Feeblemind dident make the list, considering that unless who was hit has a friend who can use greater restoration or the like, they are going to effectivly be stuck like that forever.

Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere makes for great puzzles. Players can breathe inside, so they could have a glyph at the entrance of a toxic gas maze.

This is great advice for new DMs! Since you mentioned Otiluke's Resilient Sphere in the video and in regard to the awesome One-Shot you recently played with Dungeon Dudes and D4 Deep Dive, I would like your opinion concerning the follow interaction: a Cleric cast Warding Bond on a Fighter, then Wizard cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on Cleric. What happens? Does Warding Bond still work but the Cleric takes no damage? Or the Sphere prevent Warding Bond from working at all? Obviously this example is an awful use of spells, but you could obtain the same with an Artificer Battlesmith lvl 13, Spell-Storing Item with Warding Bond given to the Steel Defender and Otiluke's Resilient Sphere casted by the Artificer.

Things that invalidate the mechanics of the game make everyone feel bad. Legendary Resistance, for example. 1/4 of the spells out of the PHB you never bother even casting at a "Boss" monster because it is just going to legendary resist. I have a wizard in my current group who has used Disintegrate on 3 seperate occasions, and each time the monster had legendary resistance and used it. How does that player feel, do you think?

Further problem with Suggestion _and_ Mass Suggestion both: This spell is more powerful when used by the DM. No matter what the DM uses as the Suggestion, it's obviously a reasonable request in their eyes or they wouldn't make it, so it is always enforced. A DM may _not_ rule the same way were a player to attempt the same suggestion, whether that bias is conscious or not! Thus, a DM can do things using Suggestion or Mass Suggestion that a player character cannot do.

Hard crowd control is really only good for players running multiple characters. It feels bad to do nothing, but it feels good to have your pet/summon/follower act when you would otherwise be completely stunned

I think hypnotic pattern does present interesting tactical considerations for the players though. Even if a monster can hit the whole party, some players will usually succeed on their save. Do those players shake one person free at a time? Do they damage a bunch of players with attacks or AoE to free them? Do they focus on breaking the monsters concentration? Do they ignore the effect entirely and focus on ending the fight? That's an interesting choice for the party, even if they go with the last one and the affected players are out for a couple of rounds. And even if you take out the entire party with this, you still probably have to damage them to try and kill them, which ends the effect. I can't think of a scenario where hypnotic pattern on the players means combat ends the way it does on the monsters.

phantom steed is 1 of the reasons why optimal parties shouldnt have melee members that arent mounts, summons or pets. range is king in 5e. range with superior mobility much more so.

Love these videos that touch on Game Health. There are a lot of questionable opinions out there on how every spell that a player uses should be fair game for DMs too. I think it's great when someone with your kind of platform pushes back against DM spells that remove engagement from players. This is why it's important to not always be the DM. Being a player every so often is a good reminder of how asymmetric the dynamics are between players and DM.

Not liking spells like this just makes it low cost for players to completely ignore saving throws and flexibility in exchange for more damage on a featureless plane. The DM should be poking at players who tank their saving throws, at least some of the time- just like they should use the attack action of monsters to hit low AC.

It's interesting that your reasoning for Fortune's Favor and Silvery Barbs can also be applied to the legendary resistance mechanic. Every time this happens as a player, it definitely feels bad. Have you played around at all with replacing / changing the legendary resistance mechanic?

Mass Suggestion: end of a combat where the players and villain respect each other, cast and say “love your best life.”

I interpret "hate as a DM" to mean which spells make DMing harder. Things like goodberry, fly, phantom steed, and that "make a house" spell.

As a DM, I've using the power word spells. They make for an intimidating BBEG and for a cenimatic moment. You helplessly watch as the king falls dead as the evil wizard speaks in a forgotten language and says a evil word that sends shivers down your spines.

I actually had a moment last week where as a dm, the group was fighting a night hag who I had planned to have silvery barbs. After the hag only sustained one hit the group sorcadin had a critical hit and It just felt so icky to me to use silvery that I ignored it - turned out he actually did almost 100 hp damage and killed her. It was an epic moment and thrilling for the player even though it cut short a bossfight. Made me think about this very topic just a week ago

The most disheartening use of hypnotic pattern used against me as a player, was when a creature used it against my hexblood astral monk. One failed saving throw, there went two turns of setup, hex and astral arms. Made me feel useless the entire fight. Then later in the fight, the DM used fear after using Sickening radiance. The fight dragged on for far longer than it should have. I wish I could pay the DM b/c then maybe he'd actually take into account the player psychology of his choices as the DM, rather than thinking "it's what the enemy would do, not my fault." Then he chose to have the enemy escape once a player character was on the edge of death. But the most egregious part is that he told us, the players, the people who spent 5ish sessions looking for this single enemy, close to 2 months irl, some sessions were cancelled bc life happens, he told use that the enemy had 8 hp left. How am I supposed to feel exactly? If my character hadn't failed that saving throw, the party wouldn't have wasted 2 months of real life free time. I've considered leaving the group over this, more than once, bc the entire situation shows a complete incompatibility between my game philosophy and the DM. I don't know what I'll do. But yh, those are my choices for spells I hate a DM using. Hypnotic pattern, sickening radiance, and any mass fear causing spell.

Great idea for a video - and yeah, spells that incapacitate a player with no ongoing save, it's really rough. There's some on those that I'd use from time to time, but really only suboptimally (eg, hitting a bard who has misty step with forcecage, or using a phantom steed but staying within range of the party). Where it's annoying/a challenge, but there are ways around it. But generally, taking away player agency is rough - especially if it's multi-round, where they might have to wait a half hour and do nothing. I prefer to use Tasha's mind whip style effects for that, or "you are stunned next round unless you take Xd10 dmg", which they get a choice on. Antimagic Field (or similar abilities) are some that I quite like - but more for positioning. There needs to be a way for the magic-using PCs to maneuver out of the field - and then in the process, potentially put themselves at risk. In which case, I think it works well at reshuffling the battlefield from time to time. Something to use sparingly, and not in the same way a competent party would use it (pinning the enemy/grappling them in the effect of the field), but making the spellcasters sweat for a bit can be fun :P

I do like hipnotyc pattern as a DM, cause it's easy to remove, it creates interesting choice to the players, do I use my turn or do I wake up an ally. And they actually ce with creative ways to wake up more than a player at once.

My DM once ran a dungeon where half of all of the monsters could cast Fear. The other half had permanent darkness cast on them and since they were all devils they all had devil sight. Most battles I couldn't do anything. I think he was going for "spooky" but it ended up being "frustrating" and "boring".

Banishment: Some Lineages are not native to the normal plane, for example Aarakocras not gonna come back, because they are native to the air elemental plane. So after the group broke the concentration, the player won't come back (dissapointment for the group) and is now basically permanent split from the group, if the player doesn't decide to create a new char. As a DM I would just ignore that part of the spell.

I feel like the problem isnt really the DM using those spells, as much as it is that those spells are just unbalanced as all hell. its all very bipolar. save: nothing. fail: encounter over. or worse, with no save attached. its why we have legendary resistance; but that is often also seen as boring and annoying for the players. but then we get monks with their stunning strike, and people fawn over how good they are at burning LR… i feel like maybe it would help if all spells/effects had stages of success, each with defined results. that way, spells would even get stronger if your save DC increases; and we would also get further away from complete shutdowns.

I am now going to fully anticipate that you use nothing but these spells against us on our next collab 😂😂😭😭

I read a warning from a DM who gave a high level enemy (a Lich or something) Psychic Scream because it seemed interesting, and a spell the players had never had to deal with (and would likely never pick themselves). It didn't go well.

Best use of Otiluke’s resilient sphere: when terrain is involved and there is a steep incline or ramp. The enclosed character rolls down the hill like an unlucky hamster. Casting this directly in a creature climbing or in a glyph of warding on a steep path is a great use for either players or DMs. For DMs, this is a great trap to separate a party member and have a whole adventure around the other party members “recovering” them. It leaves the trapped player safe from immediate damage and leaves them with agency a moment later, while separating them from the party. This is especially effective early game with a party that has one very dominant power gamer. It allows them to power game while just surviving while the rest of the party gets to explore their agency and abilities in reaching the stranded character.

Fortune's Favour is good for the DM to use if it's an NPC giving a blessing/boon to players before they go into a big fight or travel through a dungeon.

Action = Upcast Command: “Approach!” Action Surge: = Fear Reaction = Opportunity Attacks for everyone! 😁

Banishment is cruel! But I saw some DM use it brilhantly to flee a combat, or try to bargain a non lethal end to it, I think it's a reversed finger of death: the same way finger of death is a nice spell to start the combat, because it raises the stakes, but an unfair spell to use after some turns, banishment is a fair spell to use at the end of combats, but it's just unfair to start the combat with it

I was expecting polymorph to at least get an honorable mention.

Boy, I disagree with most (not all) of this. I both play and DM. Speaking as *just a player*, please DO use spells that are designed to frustrate players if they make sense in the world! Just DON'T use them all the time, don't use them as punishment or to "balance" against the party strengths, and don't pick on certain characters. Combat that's only "take x points of damage" gets boring. I like being forced to come up with tactics on the fly. Having a party member get banished makes me think, whoa, I better start thinking about how to solve this problem! And if I'm the one who's banished, then a.) at least it's better than making death saves (also frustrating and takes away my options) and b.) I can lobby my party to start forcing those concentration checks. 😄

I'm kinda surprised that Counterspell/Dispel Magic didn't make the list. Same with Feeblemind and Plane Shift. Odd suggestion for this list: Chill Touch. Using it, especially on players who are very low or already out is really nasty. It never really clicked for me how nasty this is until I played Solasta. A couple of the boss's like it there.

"You end up creating an enemy that might be a challenge for the players, but more than anything it's annoying" I think you just summed up my style of DMing. 😶‍🌫

i do think wall of force fit in the list for the same reasons forcecage do. Especially since it can appear at levels players don't have counters like disintegrate. It take them out of the fight with no save. Did you forget to add it to the list ?

Maze. If all the players have "optimized" their characters to have below average Intelligence at the sorts of levels where they're against a 15th level caster they deserve everything they get.

Is there any reason a creature in a Resilient Sphere couldn't take the Help action? I'd say a bubble bumping up against you while you're trying to fight would be sufficiently distracting flavour-wise, and RAW I see no reason it would be disallowed. So it doesn't *necessarily* take a player right out of the action. Hell, it only says the creature inside can't *damage* anything outside of it, not that they can't attack, so you could even bowl someone over with a shove or park on top of them with a grapple, unless I'm missing something.

Wait, a player wouldn’t spend an action to rouse someone affected by a Hypnotic Pattern? !

As a DM I have the rule: if the players abuse mechanics and cheesy spell tactics (phantom steed for example) so do the monsters.

After we started playing online (Fantasy Grounds), our DM always groaned every time the party Shepherd Druid cast Conjure Animals. Beyond having to add all the tokens to the board and run them himself instead of the player due to some token ownership issues (might have been fixed with an update), if there were enough other tokens on the map it would lag the game for everyone.

Heat Metal. Just Heat Metal.

As a DM, I basically stick to the same criteria you use to rate spells' effectiveness, but reversed, for use against players. Single Save control spells, like HypPat are obvious danger zones. But a Save Every Round spell like Hold Person, is fine. An area damage spell on its own, like Fireball, is fine at levels 7 and up. But the persistent damage spells, like Hunger of Hadar or Sickening Radiance, are a danger zone. Even single target spells that will drop one PC are OK, at times, as long as prudent action by the party will get them back on their feet. Disintegrate, on the other hand, is a nope.

Personally, I prefer to view suggestion/mass suggestion as allowing you to achieve something that could be conceivably be done with an extremely charisma check. It makes it easier to define what counts as 'reasonable' and stops the spell from being OP in the way you described. That way, it is a very effective spell against the BBEG who uses fickle mercenaries as minions, but not so good in the fights where the BBEG has a horde of loyal underlings that will willingly fight to the death.

Treantmonk, I've been thinking. I really enjoyed your recent one shot (although I think it was really a two-shot). Any chance we could see you run one of the sessions you do with your patrons?

I was wondering if you were going to mention conjuration spells, especially upcast conjuration spells. If it's not part of a planned encounter, I try to avoid making the DM's turn balloon into taking up most of the combat. Between having to look up the abilities of new monsters and actually running them, this can increase the time of encounters by a lot. The DM has enough to handle with encounters without adding even more to their plate and thus reduce the time the players have. I become less worried about this if the characters have area of effect abilities to reduce these numbers quickly, but even so, getting a bunch of new monsters set up can be a chore--unless it's pre-planned, of course..

Antimagic field 8th level, Globe of invulnerability (cast it at 9th). Immune to all spells because of antimagic (including 9th levels) but because of globe, be unaffected by antimagic so you can do what you want with your own spells/items

I know it's evil, but I'm planning on using Banishment on my players. It's a really hyped up mini boss, an undead mage that conjures fiends. Plus, I really want my wizard player to copy it into his spellbook.

The DM using Banishment idea just made me shudder. We're currently playing in Waterdeep... but my tiefling is from the Feywild.... so I'd be at an instant risk of being out completely? Yikes. Also, uncommon tidbit, but Gloomstalker Rangers get Fear as well, although at level 9 like the Conquest Paladins.

I like having hypnotic pattern on a monster that is NOT going to use it on the pc's... Seeing a group of allies/bystanders fall under sway by a monster really sets up the attitude of "oh Crap watch out for charm effects!" While also taking out sideline NPCs to reduce dice-rolling on my part meaning more combat focus on PC actions. But I'd NEVER use it on players in combat (maybe as an escape tactic... At most...)

Banishment isn’t fun for anybody I punched the Wizard that used it 4 times as a monk to make them lose concentration leaving them at below half health and satisfied that I could continue punching the demon. Also as a player (same campaign) I’m waiting to have banish used on me or the maze spell so I can lean the truth of my form (a minotaur) coming face to face with Baphomet. As of now my character has been told that a fey creature did it by the monastery to hide the truth that it was a rival monastery of Baphomet cultists. Yes, my charachter’s background is of becoming a minotaur from kung fu cultists. Further Charachter Info; His name is Angus “Flank” Porterhouse and is an Astral-Self Monk whose astral body is Baphomet. He is an albino minotaur (all white fur, red eyes) with horns of a Carabao (horizontal bent to the back not pointed up-bludgeoning not piercing,) and he deals 40+ DPR at level 11.

Save or suck and long term action denial spells cast on PCs are really bad. Spells like Banishment are perfect examples of that. If it burns for one round that's not such a deal, but if it goes for more than one round, ugh. Most players HATE having invested a bunch of their time to sit through other people having fun. I'm not saying you can't use them as DM, but... be careful. Some of the spells you list here are really too powerful overall for players or DM both. Forcecage should have some ability for the cage to be destroyed. Giving the walls AC 20 with a lot of hit points would be a good way. Mass Suggestion should be concentration, at minimum. It's totally OP.

This whole list can be summed up really easily: Unfair, unbalanced, spells are fun UNTIL they get used on you. These spells aren't strategic, there isn't a counter that a smart player can use to really negate them. If D&D included more PVP these spells would get tons of complaints. Since it doesn't we are more forgiving of bad spell design and bad game balance. Nobody cares if the GOBLIN isn't having fun or is facing an unfair opponent . . . but the DM feels bad when the player faces the same situation.

I agree on most accounts except for Phantom Steed, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, and Fear. The Steed scenario that you talked about just sounded like the Lord of the Rings scene where the group was trying to outrun the orcs on wolf-back. I've played it out a few times with normal mounts. If the PCs run, you get LotR. If they stay and fight, you get a cowboys vs indians scene. ORS, I have personally seen used as a great way to grant mobile cover. Seen it used on a monk in a hallway and on a mounted paladin in an open area. Both worked to great effect as body blocking for friends. Lastly, fear might be more specific because I have a player that really likes playing paladins. When the anti-fear aura has to be used to keep the party from running from a caster or dragon; the fights just felt very dynamic, where everyone had a role to play in the fight. Also works when you have a caster with Calm Emotions always prepared. These are my experiences, so take that how you will. Wanted to share why I don't think some of these are bad for a DM to use on players.

I'm not familiar with dunemancy or the Critical Role books, but I just want to say that Fortunes Favor looks like a much more balanced and better designed spell than stupid Silvery Barbs is, considering they have a similar "advantage or disadvantage" type effect. SB is so freaking op.

I like force cage as a DM... but only when used with specific intent. I once ran an encounter where the players were only level 9 (multiple full spell casters in this party though) and it was their first meeting with the BBEG. The BBEG, both thinking themselves and actually being above the players just drops a force cage on the entire group, a cloudkill, and then leaves. The encounter is now how they get out of the situation. There is no persistent threat from the BBEG, he's left and he doesn't even care if they survive. The cloudkill is continuous damage and blocks some forms of teleportation (those needing sight). As a DM, I knew the players had tools to deal with it, including just using something like gust of wind to disperse the cloudkill and wait out the hour if they couldn't come up with much else. It was a moment to introduce a villain (that they later got to engage on more equal terms and kill) and to just see them deal with a problem.

I was surprised that Counterspell didn't make the list for the same reasons as Fortune's Favor: stealing a player's thunder ("I did a cool thing!" -- "Nope. No you didn't.")

Mass Suggestion: No player want to fight their own team mate... Sure yeah it's usually go against the players and character morales or what not... But some of the most memorable memory I have of some game I joined, are when a mindflayer took control of my character ad my DM told me to kill my party. I still have agencies, I still control my character, I still play the game, but I can attack my friends without them being allowed to be mad at me (and vice versa I cannot get mad at them for defending themself... as long as they stop shy of killing me) It was fun and everyone at the table laught. Those thinking that I'm n optimizer because I play a race that gave stat bonus to the main stat of my class (it was before Tasha) witnesses that my character still had flaw, (mainly wisdom saving throws) player who were rival with my character were about to test themself out (kind of like Goku VS Majin Vegeta) I had a reason to go full out; something I rarely do since a day of adventure rarely have a single combat, so blowing all your ressources on a single combat can be fun, but a bad idea, so it was fun to see what I could do if I wasn't restraining myself The DM had fun since he didn't had to deal with my character and saw trick how the party dealt with my strategies So everyone had fun. Obviously son't abuse of that strategy, doign it every other encounter might become repetitive, but a once in a blue moon, it change the paces and force the player to think on their feet and find a solution Anti magic field. The barbarian or fighter special abilities are not magical effect making them shine during that encounter (and being concentration, they can go work on breaking that concentration) anti magic field sure it make the wizard useless (ok sure they can throw a finess thrown dagger for 1d4+2 damage) but how if that different then a flying creature (or the fly spell) versus a paladin, a barbarian or any melee focus build. that big shiny magical +3 greatsword or soul eating is just as worthless against that flying dragon

For me, I think almost all of these spells are good to use if you are using it like once in the campaign, and during a big boss situation. Also, not more than a couple of those spells in one encounter. Just adding hit points or bigger attacks gets boring. Make the players have to think outside of the box works. Removing a player is the same as knocking them to 0 HP, it ratchets up the tension. I like Mass Suggestion for Big Bad first encountering the party at a lower level. Cast it and suggest the party "Retreat 10 miles and formulate a better plan of attack." If it takes anyone out, the rest of the party will probably retreat as well. This avoids the TPK and the BBEG dying.

I think one of the worst uses of Anti-Magic Field against the players is in Rime of the Frostmaiden. The Trial of Endurances forces the players to make a forced march for 14 hours. That's six hours of forced march, each of which can result in a level of exhaustion and there are enough that characters can die, or be left completely crippled. That's bad, but okay, you could maybe use some magic craziness to bypass it or increase the odds of succeeding the saving throw, like having the Cleric cast Bless every hour before the saving throw or use Enlarge/Reduce to shrink players down so other ones can carry them to trade off, or have the Moon Druid Wild Shape into a Giant Elk or other creature large enough and carry several party members (possibly a all of them) the entire length of their wild shapes (which depending on level, could be nearly the entire eight hours), then wild shape into a cat and rest in their bag while they're fresh...but the entire march is in an Anti-Magic Field. IE, no Wild Shape, no Bless, nothing but the luck of the dice and your own constitution save. And to me, that's not fair because effectively, the party has zero actual control over the situation barring very specific class or racial abilities, and their character could come out of this crippled for the rest of the adventuring day or flat out dead with zero chance of reviving them (as the only spell they'd have to revive a dead player at this point is Revivfy, and Gentle Repose can't be used). Granted, the Trials of the Frostmaiden are awful in general, but that Anti-Magic Field is the definition of unfair. I really don't know what the game devs were thinking on that one.

As someone who’s played in high level games where the DMs(it was a west march campaign) liberally used antimagic field, I could not agree more. I was playing a single-classed high level cleric, while most of the other players were multiclassed gish characters, and all that spell ever did was stop me from contributing, when I wasn’t even a problem PC. Also, I understand why it’s not on this list, but Planeshift is another example of a spell that you shouldn’t use on a player character. The fact that it requires both an attack roll and a saving throw means that it’s unlikely to succeed, but because of the number of actions you get as a DM, one of the players will fail eventually, and that player just doesn’t get to play anymore. Admittedly, this isn’t as bad as the other examples you shared because theoretically the player can planeshift themselves to return to the fight, but using this spell requires so much care that I feel it should just be avoided as DM.

Have to strongly disagree on Hypnotic Pattern, it is so easy to end it that it is a great spell to use on the players. Only if the party is full of extremely selfish players will a Hypnotic Pattern cost a party member more than one turn. It is especially good for parties with lots of familiars / pets to give those familiars & pets a new interesting thing to do in combat that can make them feel very useful / powerful. Likewise Phantom Steed provides a fantastic challenge that is different than just "run forward and attack". But it is one that is easy to end because the spell ends as soon as the mount takes damage - one Fireball and the chase is over. Banishing 1 player is basically just motivating the party to focus fire on the caster which will break the concentration very quickly. Plus a player making a save against Banishment feels awesome, same for Counterspelling a Banishment. These both apply to Otiluke's Sphere - though Otilluke's Sphere is also vulnerable to Dispel Magic. Both of these spells are not inherently different from dropping a player to 0 hp (causing them to lose their turn as well) except that once they are restored they aren't going to drop again immediately. That said I agree about Forcecage - I hate this spell with a passion and will happily ban it from my table should we reach a high enough level for it to be cast. It is just anti-fun - no risk, no drama, and no strategy.

If the Phantom Steed spell granting a 100 ft. speed is bad, what does that say about Quicklings with their _120_ ft. speed and ranged dagger attack?

signing in late on the comments but I just played a session (lvl 10) where I failed 6 saves in a row against low level clerics and one high lvl warlock 4 castings of command, one hold person and then polymorphed into a chicken.... I literally wanted to just walk away from the table. 6 rounds of a fight on a timer where I did absolutely nothing we blew the timer and failed it so huge that DM said they had to rewrite/work a lot of stuff.

Casting fear on grappled enemy has to be insane! His speed is 0, so he uses dash every turn, but cannot run anywhere. He also stays in the line of sight with caster for the whole duration, so you can just hit him for 10 rounds for free and cannot fight back. Fantastic spell! The same happens in Web. He cannot use actions to break webs, but his dashing actions are doing nothing with 0 Speed :-D.

The only one of these I disagree with at all is Antimagic Field, and even that one just because of a fantastic DM I had a while back. As part of a West Marches campaign, he introduced an enemy military force who were notorious for having items that produced antimagic fields while the wearer was alive and were easily concealed, but were costly to create and as such only one in every 3-4 enemies actually carried one. This made a really interesting dynamic in large-scale combats where a lot of the strategy boiled down to the following: - Figure out which enemies have the antimagic item (usually by chucking spells and summons at groups and seeing where they popped out of existence) - Get the martials in the day's group to focus fire on the enemies producing antimagic fields to remove the effect while casters find things to do in other areas (like altering the environment or buffing archers) - Have the mages CC and AoE any enemies around when the field went down while the martial moved to a new target or retreated from the antimagic to be healed (since they just spent 2-3 turns wading through enemy lines and getting attacked by pretty much everything).

As a whole class of spells I hate as a DM when players cast it: spells that remove a pillar of the game. Stealth Challenges and Pass w/o Trace... or puzzles and various divination spells. "I don't want to interact with this portion of the game, so I cast "ignore portion of the adventure""

Can only agree on this. Especially after meeting Tiamat as a draconic bloodline sorcerer and finding out I had one spell slot that she wasn't immune to but no real spells that was useful for it. Was a long going campaign that started when only PHB sorcerer's existed and I skilled my character more by theme than meta-effectiveness, but as a spellcaster meeting something that is immune to spells that are below lvl 7... You feel kinda useless, especially as a sorcerer that generally speaking have limited utility and buffs.

Could kind of sum up the list as, "spells that totally shut down enemies are great for players and bad for DMs, because it makes players not able to play." I will counter with one minor point of contention. This is a pitfall that can be avoided without disregarding the spell's use. For my players, it often enhances the immersion of the game that enemies have access to the same magic and that they would naturally gravitate towards the most effective options available same as the the players. So how to use the spells without spoiling the fun? I find a commonly useful trick is to use these spells to turn combat into a puzzle. The enemy has used a spell to gain an upper hand. You know the limits of the spell. How do you get your friend back? It definitely shouldn't feel as much of a simple combat action, as that makes it feel like you sit out of the combat with nothing to do. Give the sidelined player their own mini arc as they fight through the disability. Narrate the spell especially so it sounds more like an ongoing objective to take that spell down rather than fighting through it.

Interesting that you don't mention Slow along with Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. You can target the whole party with one cast, not hit your minions and could just get a TPK if the rolls are bad. My character was caught in a Slow once and those in my party that weren't affected didn't bother to get me out of it. Needless to say, as a bard, I was useless that whole fight. Maybe it wasn't included because you get an action, bonus action or move still?

Being honest, I don't know if this is something that would go against the rules or not, but, I think that using Otiluke's Resilient Sphere can be fantastic for non-conventional ways of fighting. I mean, if you have an enemy mage and a barbarian-like creature (strong and bulky, like a minotaur for example) for the party to face, you could use the sphere to protect the squishy mage, and have the minotaur hit the sphere with a warhammer or use it with a chain to fight the party or ram the enemy at high speeds (I'm not sure if the spell can be used with a range of self, but if not, another spellcaster can use it on the mage with a scroll). I mean, total cover to the squishy unit and also the ability to be thrown at high speeds. That has to do some damage, and allows for some crazy shenanigans, but I'm not sure how much damage would do, since it isn't specified in the spell, but could be argued that it would follow a rule similar to the falling object, as in, certain speed equals certain damage, only instead of increasing, it's decreasing damage, or maybe it could be homebrewed a bit by the DM if the party is ok with that, since that would be something that both parts of the party would be able to use in a consistent way (it should be adressed though before attempting it, something along the lines, if you use certain objects as proyectiles, there's this chart with how much damage it would do, depending on the strength, so they can see coming how much damage they are going to receive or deal, and to know that those possibilities are there)). Honestly, I like those outside the box strategies, as a DM and as a player, they are quite fun and make for a memorable moment

I realized, I've never Fireballed my players. At low levels it's kind of a death sentence, and typically I think it's better encounter design to use carter's to control the battlefield instead of out and out roasting the guys. But they are getting too comfortable. I think it's time for a fireball.

I think you’re wrong. Players are happy when they finally defeat an annoying enemy. Ra especially so when that enemy appears a few times. They may even have to plot to set a trap. I find that when the players can’t do something or have a hard time on rare occasions then game is more fun. I even create challenges the party just cannot win. Sometimes they need to run. And that’s ok. But I’m from back in the AD&D days when the game wasn’t about being fair it was about having an experience.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of players taking these spells as a GM. I've run a lot of higher level games, and making cool and interesting custom monsters becomes a lot harder if the players just go "forcecage" repeatedly to prevent the combats from taking place. Of course, there are cool ways to interact with some of these spells, and letting a player use their cool spell to end a fight has its moments, but the design could've been implemented in a ways that is less "save or suck".

I always wonder if WoTC intended Anti-Magic Sphere to be used way more often to make up for the martial caster divide or something lol

While I understand the concern about something like hypnotic pattern taking a player out of the game, I feel that action economy is a knob the DM has to play with. If you do it by giving monsters extra attacks or legendary actions, or adding more monsters, it has the same effect of delaying a players' actions. I supposed this is better as the player is not singled out by missing a save, everyone is impacted?

Something to say about if you wanted to use some of these. Really play up how much of a bastard the enemy is for using it, go full theatrical, a few of these will make the players despise that enemy and want to stomp it in the ground even more.

If you have a problem with Hypnotic Pattern, wait til you read the Harpy statblock… Get a flock of them into an encounter (multiple saves and likely fail on at least one) from super long range, and have them kite the whole party off a cliff…

Additional problem with Fear: so, the fighter is wielding a fancy Flametongue greatsword that you gave him. Then he fails his save against Fear, and he drops his Flametongue and runs away. Now the enemy walks over and uses their object interaction to pick up the Flametongue. Or, maybe the entire party fails their saves and flees as fast as they can as a result, and the enemy gets to loot _aaall_ their weapons and shields and spellcasting focii. Plus, if your feats or class features increase your speed, those are now turned against you because you are forced to flee. It's very possible for a player character to outright leave the dungeon as a result of Fear before they make their save, or for them to unknowingly flee into another encounter which they now must solo while the rest of the party continues the first encounter.

I used some volos guide humanoids recently, one of which had banishment as an option. Party has two warlocks a cleric dmpc and a roguebarian, so upcasting it didn't do much but did manage to get rid of the roguebarian with it. I did so midway through the fight when it wasn't going well for the enemies, roguebarian lost a turn then my dmpc (although the warlocks could do this too) banished the caster, dropping banishment and basically ending the fight in the players favour. I think in this case it went fine since the enemy that could cast banishment was one of 5 strong enemies and the rest couldn't, plus the party was at a level where they could deal with banishment with plenty of ranged and spell options. I can see where it could be a problem especially with the more potent versions of these sorts of spells, but I do think it can be a useful challenge once in a while if it is limited in who it can affect. Completely agree that if I made that same enemy capable of casting several 6+ level banishments until the party was all gone it would be a problem, same with mass suggestion fear or hypnotic pattern. I think big spells like that should always have the concentration get out of jail card and should be at most less than half your party as possible targets of them. Depending on the party these spells are more or less of a problem, my party has lots of people capable of fighting melee and ranged, so an anti magic field wouldn't be as devastating despite having mostly casters since they're hexblades, but for other parties relying on magic almost exclusively its a game ender. Any way there's a fine line to walk and I'm glad you've put the discussion of these sorts of spells out thar at least as a cautionary note.

I think here is too much care about fellings of players. A game through suffering and extreme challenge may reward emotionaly better, than through moderate difficulty

Had a session where the DM immediately stuck our barbarian into a Forcecage where he grunted angrily for the whole encounter. Poor Bastard.

My favorite part of Maze is that minotaurs and goristros automatically succeed. It’s a fun way to incorporate mythology.

My first thought: counterspell My second thought: still counterspell My third thought: counterspell

I allowed a player in a resilient sphere to ram others. Dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage with a bull rush type maneuver at the end. It wasn't much, but hey it was hilarious