spike is one of the most emotionally intelligent characters on the show (probably tied with giles) and the fact that he regularly applies absolutely none of that intelligence to himself is top tier
Spike and Joyce rule in every scene they are in together. They just do! I love how despite his mockery when Angel shows up, he never actually attempts to harm her. He enjoys being mothered by her.
@@TylerAlexander And it's not because Spike isn't actually dangerous! He feels very dangerous in the scene with Willow and the broken bottle. But with Joyce, it really doesn't feel like he would harm her.
Spike respects Joyce. She always interacted with Spike very cordially, except the time she hit him with the ax, and then he probably respected her for that too.
The funeral fakeout is one of my favorite damn jokes Trivia: Charisma Carpenter did actually get impaled as a kid, roughly where the iron rebar is in this episode.
In spite of the tragic outcome, I do have to love the way Spike arrives all miserable and leaves that misery behind with everyone else while he leaves all happy. It's like some kind of contagious bug.
"No consent." Yep, Willow seems to think that if she thinks something is a good idea then she's justified in doing it, even if it impacts others...and she's making the decision without asking. I think the funeral was for the magic shop woman.
I actually really like that idea. Because the reading given by the priest never sounded to me Christian. And it would explain why Buffy is there, to make sure she doesn’t rise as a vampire. I don’t know if the writers intended that, but it’s immediately living in my head canon.
Your adorable analysis of breakups is perfect for people but not soulless vampires. Dru may very well be thinking to herself “if he really loved me he’d kidnap and torture me until I said I liked him again” and really mean it.
😂 this is true. I was more talking about what their relationship represents and the toxic allegory there as opposed to applying it to their actual relationship 😅
Yes, because that's what she loves. She loves tortures. Angelus made her like this. And Spike said that Dru blamed him that he became too soft. And he wanted to please her. That's also why he was trying to do everything for her, dresses, jewelry, tortures. So she can love him again. Because 'he is love's bitch'.
Who would have thought we'd feel like this about Cordy from where we started in S1? BTVS has such character growth and change and as much relationship drama as any teen show, but it feels so real (sometimes painfully so when they make the same mistakes we did at that age) that it's all earnt.
Willow would rather use magic than break things off with Xander. Does that suggest an over eagerness to use magic to solve problems, or a concern that she doesnt know how to handle interpersonal conflict? Perhaps both?
I wish you had put in the whole speech Spike makes at the magic shop about "You're not friends, you will never be friends. You'll be in love until iit kills you both.... love isn't brains, children. It's blood screaming inside you to work its will." Basically, I wanted your take on that speech. Also, start noting how many times Spike is present for the extremely important things in Buffy's life that her friends usually know nothing about.
To be fair, even if Spike hadn't "betrayed" Dru, she still had a right to break up with him and be with anyone she chose. And Spike was already thinking he could choose for her in season 2. He wanted her to be only with him, but she wanted Angel too, and he just decided to take her away.
It's honestly heartbreaking how mature Buffy can be, mainly because you just know that maturity was hard-won is such a short period of time, she was nowhere this mature pre being a slayer
The thing Spike says, that he's loves bitch, is a callback to Beauty and the Beasts. Buffy's therapist says that there's no shame in getting lost in love, but you can't stay lost. "Otherwise love becomes your master, and you're just it's dog."
I feel like often Spike can make excellent observations about other people and how theyll act/react but this is almost always used to manipulate people and often misses the mark on deep insights into how souled people think and feel. For example, he is bang on about Angel and Buffy not just being friends, and to some extent about love not necessarily being about brains, but the rest of his speech reveals the kind of selfish love he feels. He loves Dru but as a possession, which is why he wants her back regardless of what she wants. This contrasts with Angel telling Buffy to go away to college (because he loves her selflessly) and Buffy saying they need to be apart (because she loves him and knows they can never give each other what they want/need and ultimately her love could destroy him). It's also shown how, when Willow and Xander selfishly follow what they want regardless of anyone else all that happens is people they love get hurt, including themselves - where Spikes idea of love would say take what you want.
I can’t wait until you get into the later seasons cuz there is gonna be HELLA stuff for you to unpack and you’ve already had such in depth analysis of the more surface level stuff in the show. I am SAT
Yeah, that Buffy and Angel "can't be friends" has nothing to do with "men and women can't be friends" or anything like that--it's just THEIR specific situation and history, like you said. I mean, it would be exactly the same if they were two men or two women with the same complicated romantic backstory and situation lol.
It's increedddibly subtle and only came to me after years of rewatches, but there is a running thing that Buffy is not good at and does not like history as a school subject. Around 5:53 Joyce says (full quote not in video) "Brown University has an amazing history program. You like history, right?" Just the teensiest of subtext that even though Joyce is thrilled about Buffy's options, she isn't really tuned into what Buffy is and isn't interested in.
I love this episode - Spike and Joyce's interactions (those little marshmallows!), his friend/love speech, and an insight into different types of love (it is a complex sandwich indeed!) I always think of Spike's lines in this one more like a narrator would voiceover an episode, which ties in with Buffy's "I can fool everyone but myself... and Spike, for some reason." Spike always manages to anchor pivotal scenes with his whimsical sense of sarcasm and brutal honesty. I see the similarities between Spike and you, Tyler, very much the observers and narrators of the series!
Really liked your analysis/reaction. Love this episode. James manages to make Spike endearing despite pretty much everything he says and does is pretty terrible. Love Spike with Joyce and how he goes from crushed to joyful meanwhile leaving chaos in his wake with all our heroes miserable. The funeral fake-out is also pretty funny, making everyone realize how much they'd miss Cordy if she was gone.
What's interesting is that they show this unhealhy relationship, like you said, of Spike and Dru and draw a parallel with Buffy and Angel story. Without being self-aware, not realizing it. They literally show that the person who can understand them is Spike because of his love for Dru. He gave that speech about love and after it Buffy is supposed to understand smth about herself and about her own love. Like she said that she can't fool Spike for some reason. Because he understands her. A souless vampire. At the same time they still use Buffy,Angel story as a 'true, noble, romantic' etc etc love line. And at the same time they tell you that vamps can't feel, they don't know what it is and what love is. Dear, the plot just shows that Spikes teaches you what it's like when you love someone. I dare everyone to remember that for later. And I dare the plot to do the same. It's really interesting when the author pretends that it wasn't there. Because like I said, they are not self-aware.
Spke is intellegent, but just like humans with souls, its harder to see the problems with oneself than those around you. Spike and Joyce are great in every scene together, and now they have created a bond outside him trying to kill Buffy. I love the subtle storytelling of the fact that Buffy is book smart smart (and not just street smart, as she's always been) perhaps even smarter than Willow (Buffy gets better SAT scores and had been practicing with Giles in the graveyard in earlier episodes), but she just doesn't have as much time to study due to being the slayer. She even states this to her mom in _Becoming Part 2_ in saying she rather study than do slayer stuff, but can't always do so.
Buffy didn't get higher SAT scores. We never hear Willow's combined score, but the context of her complaining about her 740 verbal score heavily implies that she scored higher than that in mathematics. Her combined score can reasonably be assumed to be over 1480 and very likely in the 1500s, compared to Buffy's 1430. Buffy is still nipping at Willow's heels, which is extremely impressive for someone in her position.
@@Talisguy SPOILERS True. And I was also mixing up moments of this episode's SAT scene with the S4 moments where Willow is upset that Buffy beat her out on a test score (I don't remember the episode off the top of my head).
Been waiting for this reaction since the start of Season 2, and you didn't disappoint. This is one of those episodes where you really realise just how much character development they can pack into 40 short minutes, and just how good they are at even making the villains feel like they're reacting the way you think that character would react. And also, talk about a great job of showing that sometimes people do stupid things for stupid reasons... without making it seem "unbelievable because it's stupid". That's a fine line to tread and one that many shows get hopelessly wrong.
Spike is my favorite character in this series. He's a well thought out character with an interesting backstory. That's not to say he's a good person, he's definitely terrible but I do adore every moment he's on screen because I find him fascinating as a character.
First time I watched this episode was in reverse. My best friend at the time used to record the episode and I'd go around to watch it. Unfortunately his video player was on the blink and would not rewind without the video playing, so despite my best effort to avoid the screen, I saw the funeral followed by Cordelia with a rebar through her chest. I was p***ed. I had to watch the entire episode with that trepidation of whether what I thought I'd seen was actually correct. I think I was too relieved to even think of swearing at the time, 45 minutes of dread being removed in an instant was just too sweet a moment to feel anger.
I well remember the torture of this type of incident. I was living somewhere with no tv for a lot of the original buffy years and my lovely mother used to tape it for me. I would binge watch every few months when I visited. But if the time stamps coming from the tv feed or the video were somehow out of sinc then pivotal moments could be lost. 😱😱😱😱🤦🏼♀️. Occasionally she would set it up as individual episodes with a long run over each end to avoid that, but then that meant turning off series record and inevitably the next episode would be entirely missing or I’d only get half of it when she remembered. I didn’t see Hush the first time through season five for example! I had to read most of Angel as illegal transcripts because I didn’t have access to the broadcast tv at all. Took several years to get hold of the tapes and I never did watch the last two seasons. I just couldn’t face it in the end. Reactors these days are so spoiled. With everything being so easy and cheap to get hold of. It’s much more fun to watch people react as they don’t forget so much information and understand what is going on more.
@@dees3179 hope you manage to watch the last two seasons. Ok, maybe not so much the penultimate season, although it still has its moments especially at the start, but the last season was great.
I love your analysis of this episode! It’s definitely a product of its time in a lot of ways, and since I tend to watch this show thru a nostalgic childhood brain lens, I usually miss it (or just accept it uncritically)
I remember Entertainment Weekly magazine, which was a big supporter of the show had a special issue reviewing every episode of the first three seasons and when they got to this episode they wrote that it was an A episode because Spike returns and always elevates the proceedings. So true. He is a great character.
That fire stunt outside of Angels was the last shoot of the episode and James improvised putting it under the fountain first instead of straight into the pond because he wanted to return to the show. The only issue is they only put enough protective gel for the stunt they originally planned so it burnt his hand, after they wrapped up James said his fairwells whilst hiding the burn, then went straight to the ER. You're pretty spot on with Spike, he might feel love despite being a Demon and having no soul but it's the twisted toxic type of love that you describe. Another fun parralel of when Angel with a soul couldn't stand being left alone with Joyce without freaking out that he might bite her. Where as Spike with 0 soul and it's the furthest idea from his mind, to the point where he even mocks the it after Angel shows up.
The problem with phrases such as "The Friend Zone" is how they're taken nowadays vs how they were taken when created. Originally, friend zone was fully tongue-in-cheek and just a funny way of saying a girl doesn't think you're cute... but as it does with everything, social media granted a platform to people that look for any excuse to dislike women (because they dislike women already but look for insincere reasons to back up their claims) and allowed them to find other like-minded people to verify/justify their misogyny. They add a level of seriousness to something that wasn't supposed to be taken seriously which completely changes the intent of the phrase and adds a far more negative connotation to it. As an English major graduate, I really hate what twitter has done to words/phrases in general.
To be fair, I think Spike and Dru's possessiveness of each other was entirely mutual. Their relationship is a perfect representation of that toxic co-dependency, because you know.. They're soulless evil creatures lol. Their relationship and their love is inherently twisted, so his reaction to them breaking up feels very on brand. He doesn't respect her boundaries, because their relationship essentially had none.
Imagine breaking up from your lover you have been with for 100+ years. Gotta hurt. Later we find out more about Spike as a person and his relationship with Dru that adds more to the situation. But no spoilers.
You're to be commended on your restraint to not swear after the "Cordelia funeral" fake-out. My GOD what a glorious dick move that was from the showrunners!
To be fair, Drusilla cheated on him with Angelus first while trying to destroy the world so she's not exactly the wronged party. She still doesn't have to be with him and he's still toxic but she is too just as much.
One thing I do want to address is the topic of the friend zone. The friend zone is a very real thing. I’m not saying it’s a good or bad thing but simply that it does exist. I’m a 36 year old man and one of my best friends in the world is a woman I have known for about 20 years now. Currently like I said we are very close friends and I love her very much and will do anything for her. To be clear when I say love I’m not necessarily talking about romantic love. The thing is though that wasn’t always the case. Early on knowing each other we were attracted to each other and fooled around a little bit and in 2012 we even dated briefly for a few months. Things got ugly we broke up and didn’t speak for a little bit but we eventually talked again and reconciled and we have been friends since. The thing I am disputing though is the idea that the guy who feels he has been put in the friend zone feels he has some ownership of the woman in question. I’m sure with some men this is absolutely the case but in my situation in particular it was simply that I loved her more than just a friend. I did my best to never cross any boundaries and always did everything I could to be a good friend to her. Really though I cannot lie and say that it wasn’t sometimes a very painful thing to be in love with this woman who you know doesn’t feel the same way. I guess my bottom line here is to try and have some sympathy or empathy or whatever for the guy who is in that situation. They are not always nefariously trying to claim a woman as their object. Sometimes they just really love a woman and are doing their best to be their friend if that’s all they can be.
Very good observations and directing of your thoughts on a consequential episode. So much of the audience focuses on the Willow, Xander, rosy, and Oz love square they overlook the more adult Buffy and Angel dynamic. Frankly the W, X, C , and Oz “ love” dynamic is squarely in the High School scene. I know the Buffy fans at the time never saw Xander and Cordy long term. And as much as my girl friends liked Oz , none of them saw him with any passionate emotions and I even heard him described has a band slacker that was “ below” Willow. It’s all high school drama and nothing new. It’s the Buffy / Angel relationship that has the consequences. Spike is the disruptive force and like those in a Shakespearean play, wrecks the characters with the truth. The players all have comfort in their lies and false narratives. It’s the truth and the truth telling that makes them uncomfortable and reckless.
People talk about Willow a lot, but no one points out that she crushed on Xander for two seasons and Zander never gave her a second thought, and now he's suddenly all over her. Buffy comments aside for a moment, you are looking 🔥 fantastic 🔥 today. 😍
I love this epsiode. But then, im a biased spike fan. A good option to see, as you say, the variety of relationships of our cast; similarities and differences and the toxic elements of them all. It took an outsider/spike to come in and reveal what was obvious in any other light. The reveal of spikes own relationship and his cathartic relief at the end once he realised (even if wrongly, he at least believed he was right) where he'd been going wrong, and how he needed to just be himself. The reveal of willow and xander cheating, and the reveal to buffy of what she knew already inside herself about her and angel. Also on a separate but equally important note. I kinda miss Jarvis, Tyler 😢 hope hes doing well!
Interesting to see Spike like this. To me, it always seemed like he changes into a different person when he's in love, always being the man she wants (and changing personality completely for every obsession). But here, it's like he's trying to be the kind of abusive boyfriend of Dru's fantasies, but he's erratic and seems more like he's only trying to fill that role.
Spike the greatest character in The Buffyverse! Was great to see him back here. Lover's Walk another super episode keeping up the great quality of S3. All the relationships here are having problems Angel/Buffy, Spike/Drusilla and the Oz/Willow/Xander/Cordelia situation. Spikes monologue was very true regarding Buffy and Angel he really nailed it there. You can really see how the writing is now much more intense in that it really delves into the Psyche of each characters emotions. Season 3 is just banger after banger after banger!
Spike and Dru are so interesting, because we learned last season that Dru never really wanted Spike anyway. She stuck with him after Angel left because she needed someone to take care of her, but all along she wanted the cruel, monstrous Angelus back. She cared for Spike enough to take care of him after he was injured, but she didn't love him like he loved her or care enough about him not to immediately go back to Angel right in front of him. On the other hand, Spike is a romantic who thrives on being a caretaker/protector type. He is very human in a lot of ways, not at all like Angelus who doesn't have an iota of humanity. The first time we had a big scene with him, if you remember, he was in vampire face swaggering around and openly mocking the Annointed One and his minions... and AS SOON AS Dru showed up he automatically reverted to human face when turning to look at her. Remember when Spike got Dru a necklace and Angelus got her a human heart? Spike has deluded himself into thinking he and Dru have this great love, when really she was using his instincts to be a gentle caretaker type for her benefit, but she wasn't into it at all and dumped him as soon as she was healed and didn't need a protector anymore. Dru didn't leave Spike because he made a deal with Buffy--it's deeper than that. She left him because he's the kind of vampire who WOULD make a deal with Buffy to save the world, and what she wanted all along is the kind of vampire who thinks it's a good idea to suck the world into hell. He's the kind of vampire who is always presenting his human face to her and taking care of her and giving her jewelry, but what she wanted was a monster who tortured her into insanity and gave her human hearts.
I disagree. Dru is the one who chose Spike. She turned him into a vampire- out of everyone else, she chose him. She was stuck with Angelus, tied to him due to her madness and him being her sire. She went back to Angelus because Angelus demanded it and Spike was incapacitated. She had a hard time refusing her sire. But she saved Spike and stuck with him despite him being in a wheelchair, even rolling him out of harm's way. She could've left him ages ago. She could've survived without him before she was injured, could've found herself a chaos demon to take care of her. She didn't. Next time Spike and Dru are on-screen, we learn she left him because he LIKED the Slayer already and she knew that before he did. She did not leave becuase of his betrayal or any deals. Dru realized the old Spike is gone forever and that's when they parted ways for good. Because he changed due to Buffy. Dru absolutely wanted Spike. The old Spike. He just didn not exist anymore.
@@wrongnumber878 man, both of you have great takes and i somehow agree with both of you even though you're saying the exact opposite things! 😂❤ Love this fandom.
@@wrongnumber878 and one of the next times we see her on screen we learn she only chose him in the first place because she had some sort of foresight about him being her knight. But we've seen so far that she is often pretending with him / isn't actually into the things he does for her or the way he expresses his love. I didn't say she didn't care about him at all--if you reread, what I said is she cared about him enough to take care of him when he was injured, but she never cared about him like he did her and didn't care enough to consider his feelings when she paraded Angelus in front of him. I also said she didn't leave him because of any deals or betrayals. I said she left him because he was the type of vampire who WOULD make such a deal. It's all well and good when he limits his softness to buying her jewelry instead of giving her human hearts, but then he shows that he's the kind of vampire who WOULD get tied up with the slayer.
@@chaptereight2639 She still could've chosen someone else ''to be her knight''. And when have vampires considered each other's feelings? They can't love the way people do. Did Spike consider her feelings when he betrayed and kidnapped her? She had no choice but to accept Angelus back, bacause he's her sire and she's stuck to him. And it was stated she never left because he was a certain ''kind of vampire''. She left because he already LIKED Buffy.. Because he had CHANGED. You say she never wanted Spike in the first place, but she went back for him in the later seasons. She even fought Buffy for him! And Angelus is also the kind of vampire who got tied up with the slayer. He was obsessed with Buffy too. She did not leave him for it. She just wanted things to go back the way they were- when they were all a family. In one of the flashbacks, Spike sees them have sex. Dru then reaches out to Spike but stays with Angelus in the room, at his disposal. She is like a child stuck to an abusive parent. If she loved and wanted anyone in her vampire life, it was Spike. Even human Dru and human Spike would be a good fit for one another. I feel like you want Spike's only true love to be Buffy, but people (and vamps) can have different loves and move on. Doesn't mean their love wasn't true at some point. Like Xander- he loved Cordelia and Willow and Buffy and Anya etc. But he moved on and changed and got with someone else entirely. We can debate who loved who more, but the feelings were there. Not trying to change your mind though- believe what you will. For me, Spike and Dru were the vampire Morticia and Gomez.
I understand what your saying about the friend zone but also there absolutely arw manipulative women who will take advantage of guys and leverage those desires At least as I understand the friend zone it's girls keeping side guy around they have no interest but they know he likes her, for her ego Not at all to say all women do this, or even a large number, but it's a thing I know does happen, nor that such manipulation is female only. But yeah being bitter just because your a girls friend isn't the same as all that
I think there needs to be a different name for what you're describing, and yes, it very much does exist. The problem is that people call it "Friend Zone" as well when it very much isn't, and therein lies the confusion. There are definitely women who will find a sweet, innocent-type of guy, and constantly insinuate that they are interested in them, while still dating other guys. The guy is a "back up" in case they need him, but if he shows an interest in another woman, they may go as far as telling him they think they might be in love with him, just to ensure he sticks around. I've seen this happen to two guy friends i know and care about. They were being treated as a boyfriend and expected to fulfill that role while being told they were not. It was abusive and toxic. 😢 We have to watch out for emotional abuse of our guy friends too. This is completely different from a woman clearly telling a guy that they are friends, behaving as she would toward a friend, never crossing any lines, and the guy still thinking he deserves a chance because he hasn't tried to assault her yet.
@JhadeSagrav I could be wrong, I'm a bit younger than many of these terms, but that's what I always thought the term really meant, and the broader meaning was just how it got overused and misunderstood. Like many terms. A different term would be helpful. But yeah it's sad to see when guys or girls are strung along by manipulative people
@@omalleycaboose5937 It’s not what the term really meant. It has always referred to a person who has unrequited romantic interest in someone that sees them as a friend and that once they’ve been put in that friend category (or “zone”) it’s hard for them to be seen in a romantic light.
Complete misunderstanding of the friendzone. The friendzone is where you get put when you have been rejected as a romantic partner but are still expected to do boyfriend duties : "friend" dates where you are expected to pay, being asked for favours that a boyfriend would normally be asked, etc. Basically being used for everything except sex. But it's the guy's fault. If a girl doesn't like you, just cut contact. Problem solved.
Complete misunderstanding of the friendship. Do you even have friends? The only difference between my boyfriend and my friends is sexual intimacy. I take my girls to diner and pay for them, other times they pay for me, I emotionally support them, I help them with their problems, they help me with mine. Of course of you view any relationship as a transaction you should cut contact with everyone. Bad friends who only want to resave and never return same energy exist, but that's not friendzone, it's just bad friends.
@@innocentevilis "friends" are only people who use you for a specific purpose - the manner in which you benefit them in some way - and will discard you when you no longer serve that purpose.
