*Airport operation and runway condition may cause some severe troubles to airlines. This Lufthansa was affected and forced to divert as they couldn't land on the active runways with the surface conditions they had. Kudos to the pilots for a good decision!*
I guess the other question is, what was wrong with 13 that it couldn't be used, other than what the controller stated regarding the number of arrivals due in?
Isn't that enough of a reason? They can't just stop the arrivals on 22 for a long time just to make room for LH400. That's just a matter of finding a solution with the least impact. With such weather causing a steady high load in the approach I guess letting LH400 on 13 would mean that the arrivals wouldnt recover as fast and cause further diversions and delays for hours to come.
""Isn't that enough of a reason?" It would be if I was an ATC or a pilot. I'm not. I was simply curious if there was something else other than the impending arrivals that go into the decision making.
ogrebattle22763 literally every airline pilot knows the max landing weight of their aircraft and required performance. Don't be impressed by standard operating procedure.
I was working at PHL when this happened. I remember being surprised to see a A380 landing since the biggest we get here are 747s. Then when it taxed to the cargo apron, I wondered if it really was cargo or what was actually going on. Watched it take off too and thought "well, now I've seen one of those big suckers," and regretted not taking any pics. Thanks for clearing up the mystery for me!
I'm under final approach to IAD (5 minutes flight time from touchdown). The 8am Emirates A380 always makes me stop and gawk as I walk to work. Don't know how those things get off the ground. Must be magic. Or magnets.
I'm a student pilot. 2 weeks ago, I was doing touch and go's when I was asked to expedite my turn because there was a cargo plane taking off behind me. I was in a Diamond 20 and when I looked over my shoulder, all I was thinking was, "that thing could hold my plane as cargo."
Everyone involved acted professionally, kind, were thorough to avoid accidents, polite to each other, and arrived at the best solution under the circumstances.
Ernest Kovach Agreed, a very impressive and professional interaction. Also great forward planning and openness, that all the factors were explored and explained and each party clarified what the options were, and could suggest alternatives and eliminate the impractical ones with respect.
This interaction should literally be taught as textbook correct "interaction" for BOTH Control Tower aspirants as well as in training pilots to be on how CLEARLY, and PROFESSIONALLY both sides should interact at all times given that so many lives are at stake always. The Options were thoroughly...and understandably... explored, reasons given, good solid listening skills were exhibited BY BOTH parties, backup plans devised, excellent teamwork 'philosophy', and great , ABSOLUTELY great interpersonal communication between this ATC member and the Lufthansa pilot ...as well as all others involved .Grade :a solid A to A plus. Respectfully submitted, A former Teacher who is a STERN but fair grader.
@Dragomir Ronilac not really, both 22s at JFK are tight for length for the A380 when they're dry, they were wet increasing the aircrafts stopping distance, couple that with the tailwind at the time and that's why they couldn't take the option, both pilots and ATC worked together perfectly in this situation. Which is nice to see on this channel
Huge level of frustration but it’s amazing how professional everyone was. I can’t begin to imagine how much crap the crew had to deal with from the passengers.
Significantly less crap than they’d have to deal with if they went sliding off the end of 22 at JFK. Most of the time, passengers are so quick to get irate without realizing the risk that’s just been mitigated.
"Good Afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen, as you may have noticed, we are currently in a holding pattern because our airplane is too massive for the airport."
Bad luck really. Teterboro closed adding a bunch of traffic that they couldn't handle with the longer runways open. I'm guessing the wind was a factor as to why they were using 22 instead of 13 and 4.
@@Cydonius1 LOL, rows 1-3, jump now. Rows 4-7, maintain holding pattern. Rows 8-20, turn left and resume seating. Rows 21-34, turn right and jump up and down for a count of 32. Rows 4-5, start sliding now.
From the second pilot`s (Ulrich Beinert ) own video on this diversion: "We refueled, offloaded some cargo (which was transported to NY on ground or by other planes) to have less weight and land safely with the given conditions, then flew to JFK. The passengers were taken care of on board by our cabin crew during this time."
Jonathan Wilson perhaps Newark, LaGuardia is far too small, but if weather rules out Kennedy, Newark may also be affected. Newark also has dual 04/22 runways, so would be similar circumstances I presume.
Jonathan Wilson LGA no way. Not even close. EWR may have large enough runways, but the A380 is restricted at most airports due to the taxiways and weight bearing limits on the surfaces. That’s one huge issue with the A380. There are fairly few airports that that airplane can operate in and out of.
My brother is an A380 Captain for another airline. Sure sounds like they earn their considerable money some days.. The Lufthansa Captain was incredibly cool under pressure.
Yea man cause planes were coming in every 65 seconds or so... but I guess it shows the importance of planning before-hand, cause they were specifically looking for 04 and 13! I guess they went with the idea that those clearances would be available. Even later we see taxing is tough cause the wing-span is so large lol. The 380 is like a suuuuper jacked guy that you can't look away from cause it's wondrous how he got so big... but, it's tough running anywhere as the super jacked guy hahaha (Aspiring pilot here)
Usually these ATC videos I watch are of somebody making mistakes or emergencies. I started watching this video expecting to hear a big argument over the radio followed by a few safety reports. Instead... it was 12 minutes of nice pilots, nice controllers, and an interesting situation; I'm pleasantly surprised.
This is the first time I've heard clear voice communication between atc and pilots. Normally is hard to understand their accents and what they say over the static disturbance.
An awesome demonstration of professionalism on both sides of the mic! I flew the 757 and 767 out of JFK for the last 15 years of my career and have nothing but admiration for all of the ATC controllers there, regardless of what position they were working.
From what I understand most of these voice recordings are from third parties intercepting the radio traffic and recording it. Meaning we are almost never hearing what the ATC guys, pilots, or ground crews are actually hearing. If you think about it, to know what the people in these situations are truly hearing it would require them to have a recording microphone within the earpiece of their respective headsets. Imagine how rare that actually is.
I just loved that ATC’s first inclination when thinking of landing a Super in Washington was DCA before IAD, especially when runway length (granted, due to conditions) was the issue that caused the mess in the first place.
Thank you VASAviation for all your hard work. I have noticed this year the quality of your videos just keeps getting better. Always very interesting content on your channel. Your work on these is much appreciated.
US pilots or ATC would say Dulles or Washington Dulles for IAD. But for international diverts ATC could well just ask: you are going to India Alpha Delta confirm? Because as you said them going to DCA is very unlikely.
I'm betting that under normal circumstances, this controller knows nothing larger than a 737 or MD 80 is landing at DCA. I think he was caught up in the stress of the moment. I immediately said IAD when he said that. And I'm just a bus driver.
Lotta armchair controllers who have probably no clue what the .65 is. And they expect this guy working the US busiest airspace to know the landing capabilities of KDCA?
I don't know why I enjoy these videos as much as I do. I'm not ATC, I'm not a pilot, and the only time I worked near planes was when I was 19 in 2007 and I spent a summer loading Air Tractors (crop dusting planes) with fuel and chemicals. However I really enjoy these videos, both when things work out well and when things can get heated. When things work out well - or as well as they can given all the variables with airline travel, i.e. a situation like this - I enjoy the teamwork, communication, patience, and understanding. The ATC was great both in New York and Philadelphia, the pilots on the Lufthansa were great in recognizing a potential hazard given the weather and making a difficult decision to fly to Philly instead (while also asking numerous times if there was any way they could land on the runways that their aircraft was capable of landing on), and while I'm sure there were some people on that flight that were pissed to have to fly to Philly and how it inconvenienced them, I'm sure if they listened to this series of transmissions they would see that their pilots acted responsibly and ATC explained clearly what the situation was but more importantly why it was that way. Well played to everyone involved in this. As for the not-so-well videos I like, I just enjoy myself a good confrontation I suppose.
Very insightful and well handled by those involved - the pilots made the right decision, these situations happen and keeping everybody safe was clearly the primary thing. I applaud!
Well, when the captain came over the PA and said "Hey look, we TRIED to get in at JFK" now everyone knows not only did they try, they asked, over and over, and nearly begged ... in the end, safety was still top priority. Job well done by all parties.
? Usually when a flight diverts, the Capt / FO comes over the PA and makes an announcement to the passengers. I'm pretty sure we didn't hear the hypothetical situation I described but ... :) thanks for the great videos.
The flight crew had a lot of patience. But then I nearly always have hope for humanity after listening to these very polite conversations. Amazing especially when you consider at least one of the parties speaking has to be pretty tired. Cheers Bill
In 2016, I was returning from Heathrow on a BA A380 that had been delayed several hours due to a water leak in the cargo bay. When we finally arrived at LAX (which had some capacity for A380’s), unfortunately none of the gates that could accommodate the A380 were available and we landed in what felt like Santa Monica 😛. They had to wheel stairs out to the plane and transport us to Bradley International Terminal by bus. The Customs people were not thrilled to have 25 BA crew and over 300 passengers arrive after midnight Pacific Time….
It's such a great story of teamwork. Everyone helps to get the big plane right to it's parking spot, and safe home. Even if it was a different spot than they wanted.
@Octopus Opened July 1st 1948 as Idlewild Airport. As a kid that's the name I knew it as. It was built on the Idlewild golf course grounds. There was an observation deck in the tower just below the ATC ops room and my dad used to take me there to watch and listen to the arrivals and departures.
I was walking home from my aunt's house in Port Richmond, Phila and I looked up because the sound was not one I was familiar with... So I was in awe when I looked up above the firehouse and you could see the two rows of passenger windows.... usually the planes use the Delaware River as a highway of sorts.
AIUI on modern jet airliners it's not considered safe to powerback with the trust reversers that due to the risk of debris kicked up by the engines (on turboprops and aircraft with tail-mounted jets the risks are lower).
The A380 only has 2 thrust reversers for the inboard engines. They originally wanted to do away with thrust reversers but the aviation authorities asked Airbus to add them for extra safety measure. The final agreement was to have 2/4 thrust reversers.
PHL is my origin airport I fly out of whenever I travel..It must have been surprising/cool seeing an A380 coming into Philadelphia. Would have been neat to see from the double-decker bridge if it was on that particular approach.
I agree with the plots... if the book/calculation says the runway they are offering is too short... go somewhere else. Better to divert than splatter the airplane.
Thats why China and Turkey are building massive runways on their new airports. If you are going to make a transfer airport, you have to encounter these kind of problems even if you don't need massive runways all the time.
Flying to an alternate airport sounds challenging, esp. in the huge A380. ATC’s role isn't to determine an alternate b/c they don't know the OP SPECS, but to provide weather info, vectors, contact info, and clearance to the alternate. The pilots can also use ATIS/AWOS/ASOS for conditions? The Lufthansa pilots clearly communicated the aircraft's limitations and requirements, contacted their company, and chose an appropriate/closer alternate per FAR on alternate airports and weather minima, which we didn’t hear. Sounds like they needed > 1 alternate since JFK to IAD is 228 miles/ 367 kilometers / 198 nautical mil.
I remember seeing the PHL airport tweet about the incident. We don't get A380 service, our terminals aren't equipped for it. Exciting to have an A380 here at PHL.
I saw this happen to an A380 Emirates a few months ago which was eventually diverted up to Toronto after an exhaustive time in holding. He too was bound for JFK and couldn't land.
That is unusual since the usual diversion airport would be IAD. But another time, an EK A380 heading to JFK ended up diverting to PIT for fuel and ultimately to DFW (this was during a heavy storm that caused a meltdown at JFK). A lot of other planes ended up diverting to ORD, IAD (which ended up being full and could not accept any more diversions) and YYZ. If that wasn't bad enough, during the meltdown, the wing of a China Southern B77W collided with the APU of a Kuwait B77W; the Kuwait plane was grounded for four months. A few flights not halfway ended up returning to their departure points in Europe.
Huh. What day of the week was it? Was it a Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, or Friday? Because if so, then it would be a double A380 sight because those days are when EK241/242 happen.
I raised my eyebrows when the ATC guy assumed that the A380 was going to divert to DCA. Whaaaaat??? Even if an A380 could stop before the end of those short runways at Washington-Reagan, I doubt that it could even use the taxiways or fit in the apron. You can hear the impatience with the stupid ATC question in the pilot's voice tone, although he remained calm and professional as a good German.
That was my point on a prior comment a super can only land at certain airports you would think they would take that into consideration , why treat them like a regular aircraft . I still think is a safety issue ..
I agree. Its like walking into a Mercedes car showroom and asking the guy if the $100K car on the floor as ABS brakes- and the guy says, "Let me check this out for you". This actually happened to me. So, here's the analogy. Either you are IN this game or you are NOT! You have to have the desire and the passion for planes to be an ATC! Case closed.
Never seen anything like this before. Divert because we are too heavy on landing (combination of tailwind component, wet and rather shorter runway and heavy jet). Well that was interresting.
The limitation can be ok when calculated with dry weayher but when it is raining the limitations change for take off or landing due to the total weight off water on the aircraft.Best regards
Them accepting 22 or JFK offering 13 sounds like a recipe for the next Mayday Air Disasters episode. When you have a request like that stick with it. That goes for both pilot and controller. Good job all around
Woowww super cool attitude and professionality from the pilot. Shit do happens but this is a big lesson for me about "super" aircraft handling to decision
"Good Afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen, as you may have noticed, we are currently in a holding pattern because our airplane is thicccccccccccc for the airport." @Jake Walton.
just watching this a day after i watched the one that happened recently at SFO with the LH visual vs ILS story. this video shows how to handle such situation in a professional way.
At first, I thought ATC was going to be "difficult" but it turns out they worked hard to look after Lufthansa. I remember working at Qantas Freight Terminal when the first A380 landed at Sydney airport Australia. Man, that was some big plane!
This speaks well to the safety consciousness of Lufthansa pilots. A380 may be problematic, but the pilots are top notch. Also, every sound byte I’ve ever heard of KJFK ATC has been so professional and interesting. They’re the cream of American ATC in my opinion and I’m not even from that region.
Yeah NYC Area must be one of the biggest challenges for an ATC. I assume that you cant work there from the beginning of your career. Its probably reserved only for the most experienced guys. One mistake and NY Air Traffic could end in total chaos.
It was shameful that Lufthansa called ahead and nobody realized that the 22s wouldn't work. Sounds like somebody at JFK dropped the ball or didn't know their stuff.
@@JKiler1 They said on frequency that they would have to shut down arrivals for Newark, and from an economic and customer orientation standpoint that is just not feasiable. Imagine you and 54 other cars behind you would have to wait at a stop light for 5 minutes, just so that 1 car can pass the intersection, when they could just drive on a different road.
@@glax2174 I get that, but when they were told about the inbound is when the plan should have been formulated. Planes don't set an arrival airport on a whim - these things are planned somewhat ahead of time. If JFK couldn't accommodate due to weather, they should have come up with a diversion plan before the aircraft entered the pattern. Instead they spun them for more than 1/2 hr, then diverted.
James Roscoe sounds like it was not a planned weather event plus the shutdown of the other airport that was adding additional traffic to JFK. A lot happens between takeoff in Germany and arrival on the other side of the pond.
So let me get this straight. At a major airport, in a first world country, they're offering a short wet runway with up to 26kt xwind, and a tailwind component of around 7kt, with the added bonus of overcast cloud at 300' and 1/2 statute mile of vis?? This even though they have dual runways on 13 which would completely solve this problem. Ah, but of course, they'd be using the poorly designed Canarsie approach from that direction because they value noise abatement over safety. (EDIT: I must acknowledge that in this case the ils 13 clashes with Teterboro given the wx cond - again though, poor airspace design for modern aviation) Hence why they're pushing 22 instead. Terrible airport is terrible.
So 04R Glideslope was unusable/ out of service because they had construction vehicles in the critical area. 13L ILS interferes with Teterboro and La Guardia. And they could not be using the Canarsie approach with that visibility. But i agree with you extending 22L/04R into the marsh land or putting the 22R localizer into the marsh land instead on an offset and putting the displaced threshold at something like 10000 ft would be definite improvement. 22L localizer is also located stupidly and a safety risk. Heavies rolling to Zulu screws with the localizer signal and is always reported by the following aircraft. Combine that with the seemingly tight spacing they run in CATIII conditions and bad instruction on exiting via Zulu. Often times they say: Hold short 31L even when the runway is not in use. The foreign pilots then stop short of the opposite direction ILS hold bars meant to protect 22L whicht they are just vacating.
22R is 12,079 ft long - that is not a short runway - and at 6:26 the wind has turned a little so it is less than a 5 kt tailwind component. The A380 is just an impractical aircraft.
22R Landing Distance Available is 7795 ft (see third box on the top flightaware.com/resources/airport/JFK/IAP/ILS+RWY+22R/pdf) 22L has 8400 ft LDA which is not that much with a wet runway and conservative calculations.
Thomas Dalton - Short enough to potentially force a performance decision at despatch. Pretty appalling by first world standards at such a major city. wiedehopf - Fair points re Teterboro, but that basically means this airport is unfit for purpose. I can't think of many major destinations with the same issue. JFK should take precedence. And that Canarsie approach shouldn't even be a thing. Add that to all the non-icao stuff the yanks do, plus the bullying rather substandard atc, which you mentioned, and it becomes quite the headache.
My only critique would be divert sooner to make it to Dulles as they could’ve handled the 380. That said very professionally handled by PHL, JFK, and the pilots
It's awesome to spend 10+ hours inside an airliner and just when you think you're about to get to your destination, get diverted and extend the party for another 4-5 hours... Niceeeee. It was the right decision though, of course, but I feel it for all those people in the plane.
I think communication was great, but it should've been better right from the start. Its not like no one knew a Super A380 was coming. It requires so much more. Especially if weight is an issue. "Lack of preparedness on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part" Better airport to airport communication is needed. One doesn't just fly an A380 into an airport without knowing it's requirements. Everyone did a great job, but it's the communication no one hears prior to the start of this video that concerns me. Again, large aircraft have specific needs and requirements. Why this wasn't handled, remains a mystery, but with 500 plus passengers and crew and a very expensive aircraft at 5000 feet hanging around to see which runway they will land on, doesn't look very good in my opinion.✈
If Im delivering to a warehouse in my truck, and I get there and my truck is too high for the clearance of the bays they have...who's fault would that be?
Exactly what I felt. If the shorter runway was available why not have some diverted floghts use it to make room for the Super on the longer runway? Jfk looked mickey mouse.
My guess would be that all those diverted flights (did he say about 50?) that were planned to land within an hour or so could not be put in a hold due to fuel.
It seems a minor thing, but 400 pilot clarifying 30 minutes fuel meant "before needing to divert" (not before reserves or before empty) is super important
