MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA vs FRANK ZAPPA | Part 2 

I saw Mahavishnu Orchestra and Zappa on the same bill. Guitarist Leo Kottke opened the show, next, Mahavishnu, followed by Zappa. Jean Luc-Ponty was playing violin with Zappa. Great show.

There's a video called The Drummer of Frank Zappa with Humphrey, Thompson, Bozzio, Wackerman and Ruth Underwood where they discuss exactly that for a good 10+ minutes : How did the Mahavishnu opening for Frank changed him. It's a marvellous discussion. Here it is : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-xGeZGrJ1ICQ.html

I went to those shows in 73 with Mahavishnu opening for Zappa....mind was blown that night.

John McLaughlin is my favourite guitarist of all time. I'm a big fan of Zappa as well.

When I was 11-12 years old , my older brother was a jazz blues pianist 6 years older. I listened to everything he was listening to. I was so fortunate to have Mahavisnu, zappa, miles jack Johnson set album, chick corea, Brian auger. Its not the music our community listened to. So its like a secret world, most of my friends shake their head and walk away and I'm left to enjoy enjoy enjoy.great video

My first Zappa concert, M.O. opened for Zappa. Cobo Hall, Detroit. Mothers Day 1973 or 74. "Birds of fire" vs. "Apostrophe" it was mind-blowing experience !!

I like/admire the angles you take discussing music/musicians. It's refreshingly unique, Andy.

In gladiatorial competition I assume Billy Cobham will emerge as the ultimate champion.

You're right about the way that mahavishnu and zappa appealed to fundamentally different audiences. My musical acquaintances tried over and over to make me love Zappa. I LIKED Zappa. But as soon as I heard McLaughlin, I was in LOVE. I saw

Ponty played with both bands. A tribute to his greatness

There's a video on youtube where Ruth Underwood states that when Zappa first heard Mahavishnu on the tour his face dropped, and she sensed things were going to change from there on, and they did.

Seen both SEVERAL times over the years. Guitar playing surely would have to go to John . Composing skills FRANK! Both incredible performers

When i saw mclaughlin lately on the jeff Beck Tribute i was fully blown away. I saw him several Times in the 70 and didnt Listen to his music since the 80 - but man - compared to bis Performance every Thing Else there was just crab!!! He didnt play a Maschine gun - it was just a heavenly Sound! And then i got one of the last Tickets for bis Concert near my hometown in germany in october! Man - i think you understand how lucky i was to See the Master of Masters one more time (but shure i saw zappa also 2 Times, and i musst admid the first one was one of the best live Concerts i ever saw) - keep on going man - this Video was real nice shit ! ! ! ❤🎉❤

WOW! Glad I found your channel. Two things stand out for me standing behind you: the stacks of records remind me of the radio stations I worked in during the 70s, and one of the two of my favorite Zappa albums is seen, "Burnt Weeny Sandwich".

Great analysis! Saw them both, early 70s, loved them both❤ I don't believe artists who are truly creative can be rated in words. The glass beads...

The best three concerts I have attended, the most musically mind-blowing and virtuoso are, in order, John McLaughlin and Remembering Shakti, Frank Zappa and Miles Davis. I'd have to say that Magma is orbiting around around all these.

Very subtle point about the violin. Fascinating... Great video in general, two of my favourite artists.

Thank you so much for this video Andy! By the way, I just bought your great band recording KIAMA 💯👏🏼 As a side note, McLaughlin himself has commented in the past, that actually, it was Miles who told him to go and put together his own band

John’s grasp of world music that continued with Shakti puts him in the pantheon of the greatest musicians of the 20th century, regardless of the instrument of choice.

Saw both in 1973 in Germany. Both blew me away...

Love love loved this Andy and worth the wait. My two favorite artists. Funny how you can have information but never realize it’s impact. I’m talking about the two violinists these geniuses used and each one joining the other. I could listen to discussions about McLaughlin and Xappa for years. And thank you for settling in on the ‘correct McLaughlin’ pronunciation!! ❤

Used to see a guy in west LA with Ralph Humphries on drums and Jimmy Johnson on bass. Ah, one of the few benefits of living in So Cal.

Andy, your music knowledge is astonishing.

Your violin bending notes awareness and exploration reminds me that Don Ellis played a custom 4 valve trumpet for that very purpose. Escaping the confines of western scales may have been more of a part of the development of progressive jazz/rock than we think of. I love your thought provoking philosophical and insightful comments. Please keep them coming.

Andy, I"ve been listening to this music for years and have been a pro.musician all my adult life. I don"t know many people who talk like this though...wonderful.

Another fantastic video. Never thought about that aspect of the violin like that but it really makes perfect sense. This interwound history of these two great guitarists and their relationship with another leading electric instrument which acts as a 2nd fiddle (pun intended) is really beautiful.

Great ! Thanks! 🙏🏻

Andy, great analysis here, but what about Larry Coryell with Gary Burton live at Carnegie Hall in 1968. This was years ahead of it’s time. Most certainly this is a seminal Jazz Rock/ Fusion album

Thanks Andy, you made me realize lots of things. Beiing a former fan of Mahavishnu orch. and Zappa ( as a drummer) I agree with your findings and recognize it all.

Watched first few minutes. Looking forward to the rest, later. All sublime musicians. Thank you.

If it was JM's intention to change the audience, I think he was successful. Just about any comment I've read about hearing Mahavishnu Orchestra for the first time (usually by record) is followed by: 'it changed my life' and I include myself there. I've never heard this said, in such numbers about any other band/musician.

My three favourite guitarists are Frank Zappa, John McLaughlin and Jan Akkerman. Thanks for this interesting analysis.

My funny Mahavishnu story is that I first encountered them on record “Between Nothingness and Eternity” when I was about 10 years old and just thought anyone who was any good played that way. I listened to that record literally hundreds of times and it sort of expanded my brain. I later realized that this was a rare special thing that only a few could really achieve. Saw Zappa live in 1981 and 1984 and was going to see thrm in 1988 but was dragged on a family vacation and figured “well I will see him next time” not realizing it was the last tour. Big fans of both artists. Oddly, Zappa may have been at odds with John’s faster playing but at the same time he was a big fan of Allan Holdsworth a guy known for some very rapid playing.

Saw both bands live back in the 70s...Zappa 5 times. Each band had the very best band members.. I can't think of too many other bands that had this level of musicianship except for Return to Forever

Like it! And is very plausible, I agree, I think you right! Somewhere I feel it the same way! Thank you!

Sir, you have no idea of the importance of your show. It's a wonderful detailed analysis with many shareble intersections. I'll follow you ever since 🎉

Oh forgot another amazing Violin Player entered the Scene " Micheal Urbaniak!"

The thing that I've enjoyed about your presentations are that they "live" with no editing, no cutting away and no video enhancements. What I find edifying is your ability to talk (rant) without referring to a script or "waffling" without going "um". I know you want to expand this channel, but these are the things I find unique/enjoyable/fulfilling about watching your" diatribes" about whatever you are going on about.

The thing with Zappa is that he defined himself as a great contemporary composer but his music is not so much avant-gardiste as he himself believe but more like a bunch of syncopated rhythm and blues phrases tied up with odd time signature tempo. McLaughlin on the other hand is a real musician's musician. I like them both and seen them both in concerts many time but I have always felt that Zappa was a man with a chip on his shoulder. Whenever you see him on tv, radio, interview he always comes out as someone who needs to explain his music. He was a man on a mission to be legitimize and pronounce in the same breath as Bela Bartok, Stravinsky or Varèse. Mclaughlin never expresses such doubts and he doesn't seem to be interested by his place in music history or world wide fame. He has a great level of humility as all the really great have...he isn't insecure about his talent because he knows no one comes close to want he does on the guitar.

That 'writer credit' youre talking about, is actualy over the song 'Pegasus', which was ACTUALLY JEAN LUC PONTY just improvising messing with a new tape delay pedal on his violin, then *without telling him,* John Mclaughlin recorded it, and added it to the album as *his own* composition... Also on Visions of the Emerald Beyond, John swapped out Jerry Goodman, for a different violinist, the story goes the violinist WALKED UP to John after an earlier mhvsh orch concert, and said to him 'I can play that better than Jerry Goodman', and being the kind of guy John apparently is, he took him up on that on the spot... So Jerry was cut for this new classical soloist violinist, then added JLP

I attended that concert tour in Milwaukee WI and it was Freaking Fabulous!

Wow! My favorite video of yours so far, Mind blown!

I only saw Mahavishnu once at the Roxy here in Los Angeles. I saw Zappa multiple time starting probably about 1972ish, after the Mothers but before Ralph Humpreys. All though I do remember Ponty and George Duke. The first time I saw him he had a slide guitarist along with Ponty (who really looked nerdy), so I think around the King Kong era. Then I saw Zappos band turn into a much more powerful unit, with the Fowler, Ruth. Underwood, Humphrey. Then I remember the 2 drummers Humphrey and Chester Thompson. I find your points interesting as I never thought about a connection between MO and Zappa. Nor did I think of Zappa as a fusion artist. I do see the connection your implying, wonder if Frank Zappa would see it. I don’t know to put Zappa into a genre . And I’m sorry that I missed MO and Zappa touring together, what a show that must have been.

I saw that tour in Philly and yes, I was tripping. haha I saw Frank standing behind the amps watching The Mahavishnu Orchestra play. Here on RU-vid, Zappa associate Pauline Butcher told me she and Frank were standing in the wings watching TMO play and Frank says to her something along the lines of "Do you know who this guy is, he's about the best guitarist in the world." and was actually excited about telling it to her. ( I really forget what she told me exactly but with that sentiment.) OH, and forgot to mention...after the show at the stage door we got to talk to Billy Cobham! He's way shorter then you'd expect him to be. We also caught Sal Marquez leaving and we dragged him into our RV and we smoked a joint with him. He was nervous looking around and saying "If Zappa sees me I'm done for". In Philly, the crowd is equally MO vs Zappa fans.

for another take on the "i saw that tour" story: i was familiar with neither of these guys when a friend & i attended the concert in Toronto because we were both guitarists & had heard that Zappa was "good on guitar". there, it was the folk band The Good Brothers that opened the show. Mahavishnu followed & the hallucinatory rhythms (they opened with "Birds of Fire") were better than any drug (no, we weren't on drugs). Zappa's music commanded attention in a different way entirely. the immediate endresult of that was running out & acquiring their latest albums, "Birds of Fire" & "Roxy & Elsewhere". for a long time, i appreciated both & continued to buy their albums & attend concerts but i ran outta patience with McLaughlin's relentless machinegun approach in terms of his solos & the palpable sense of "preciousness" to his work overall in its proposed pæanistic splendour (i've never met a physic i liked). while his stylistic investigations kept changing, they ultimately remained pretty tame, the solos came off like variations on each other, & i pretty much gave up on him; though i still would attend random concerts like the guitar trio with Al Dimeola & Paco deLucia & a later Mahavishnu incarnation, the particular spark that infused the first Mahavishnu Orchestra was gone & everything felt at least somewhat stilted (not to mention overloaded with a form of egostatic). Zappa, on the other hand, whether i was looking back in time at earlier work or following along with new releases, was relentlessly investigative in every way, not just in his guitar work; so much so that new listenings weren't accompanied by a sense of apprehension (as McLaughlin's had become) but a sense of expectancy & that expectancy never morphed into disappointment: there was always change & range that just kept expanding pretty much limitlessly. as a superficial example, given Zappa's propensity toward dense melodic lines (like, say, in "T'mershi Duween"), the surprise of "Jonestown" & the types of more "static" densities it achieves really makes yr ears perk up. the short of this is that i ultimately found McLaughlin to be all flash & of limited sustainable interest, whereas Zappa was an endless source of musical education (& still is, in fact, as more & more oddball rehearsal variations become available) that continues to surprise, instruct, & bring joy. i still listen to & enjoy both but Zappa is far more widely fulfilling than the minimal niche McLaughlin occupies.

I saw Frank around 1974. He played at the wrestling auditorium in Honolulu. The seats were wood benches with no backs, and they were so old you'd get splinters in your butt if you wiggled too much. It was torn down the following year. It was the premier audition of Cecilio and Kapono, who were the warm-up band. Frank had faux urinals mounted to the amps, ever the iconoclast. I had read a review of Birds of Fire and picked up a copy. As I ran a record store on Oahu, I didn't have far to go. I thought the album was total crap until I listened to it again that evening after I was "more relaxed." On second listen, it was amazing and has been a favorite ever since. I did manage to see McLaughlin when he played Honolulu a few years later with Carlos Santana. Cobham was with them, and he was so fast, his arms were virtually invisible. Their version of Love Supreme/ Life Divine was absolutely transcendent. The Blaisdell Center / Honolulu International Center is shaped like a giant flying saucer, and their trading guitar licks went whizzing around like Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love. Unforgettable concert. I'd love to see you do with Santana what you've done for Zappa: most jazzy albums (if you haven't already). I'd go with Caravanserai, Welcome, Borboletta, Love, Devotion, and Surrender, and Lotus.

Miles as much as anything else in my mind was exploring his own subconscious in terms of his extended trance techno compositions. Miles literally had his own series of generational shifts within his own musical playing.

Terry Bozzio did a video with drummers who worked with Frank Zappa. Ruth Underwood talked about the tour when they shared the bill with the Mahvishnu Orchestra.

I found out John MacLachlin via Miles Davis' Bitches Brew. The guitar solos on those album are absolutely unmistakable.

I always thought that John McLaughlin included a violist in the Mahavishnu Orchestra because his mother is a classical violinist. But I can't recall if I have heard John mention this explicitly in an interview.

Zappa was touring Apostrophe while the Mahavishnu was moving into Birds of Fire when they complemented/competed at the Spectrum, with a Philadelphia audience just as famous for amping a great performance as they are for disdaining mediocrity. This was the peak …Vishnu concert I witnessed followed by Zappa playing his ass off while putting his band through a complex improv arranged just for that evening. A show for the ages.

Apples and oranges. They both taste good. Depends on what yer ear palate wants to consume. Cool history. Saw them both. Had "Burnt Weeny Sandwich" on eight track. Yea, I'm geezin'. Peace on earth.

John Mclaughlin changed the evolution of the guitar 3 times. They'll never be another JM.

As always, excellent thoughts on the Mahavishnu and Zappa connection! Besides the great French Jazz violinist Didier Lockwood started playing electric violin after hearing Ponty on the album King Kong: Jean-Luc Ponty Plays the Music of Frank Zappa. In 1974 after a concert of the 2nd incarnation of the Mahavishnu Orchestra in Antibes/France there was a session of Didier, his brother Francis with John Mclaughlin, Narada Michael Walden, Ralph Armstrong ... in the studio of Jean-Pierre Massiera.

spot on Andy - John, Frank, Miles, Jean-Luc - forwards, backwards & sideways. I've loved them all. Hot Rats was my 1st Zappa album. Masterpiece! Miles' Great Expectations just read the list of sidemen & got into Jazz Rock by following them all up. Got stoned & listened to Inner Mounting Flame at Uni in 1972 OMG.

Great points. ... I saw that MO and Zappa tour in Toronto, after seeing MO on their first tour and remember not being as taken-back by the event and maybe some your points clarified why I felt that way. It wasn't a great paring of two bands. ... You should also mention that Jerry was the first using violin in rock back in The Flock which was a great band and might be interesting to do a show on their influence at that time.

Fantastic video. I don’t have a winner in this fight. It’s a draw. I love them both. Thanks 👍🍺

Nice analysis! A connection that you didn't mention is Mahavishnu's Ralphe Armstrong apparently touring with Frank Zappa in 1975/76.

Speaking of micro tonality... What do you think about King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard?

This is a great discussion. MO > FZ in my view, but it's a personal preference... as often is.

In Brasil we have an amazing .musician,his name is Arrigo Barnabé.he drank fthe water of inspiration from these guys,adding the humor of Zappa.

At the Akron Rubber Bowl in August of 1972, it was a gift to get to see JM and Mahavishnu Orchestra. Jan Hammer, Jerry Goodman, Billy Cobham, Rick Laird, for a dose of interplanetary travel. The headliner was Yes, but the first band to play was a lesser-known, pre-Joe Walsh/Bill Szymczyk version of the Eagles (odd mix, eh what?).

I never saw Mahavishnu orchestra, but I saw John McLaughlin play in a series of different musical settings. I got to see Miles play when he unretired in the early 1990s.

What a wonderful dive into this great music. Love the approach. Can't argue with your 4 pillars of the channel. As far as the comments on drummers, I'd sooner Grady Tate,

two phenomenal bands❤❤

20:00: actually, Zappa was correct. To this day, McLaughlin still emits bursts of fire. A direct contrast to that would be Allan Holdsworth, who while very fast strove for more of a liquid feel. It does not diminish McLaughlin to say this. And Zappa in fact borrowed some of that from McLaughlin; the result can be found, for example, in “Nanook Rubs It” where the lyrical phrases are interspersed with similar machine-gun bursts of notes.

I saw Zappa in 1973 at Wembley. Zappa and his band were superb and as a 14 year old I was awestruck. Outside Wembley Empire Pool one of the music papers did a vox pop and published the result with one of the audience comparing Zappa's show with being "bludgeoned into catatonia". I completely disagreed with the sentiment but still thought it a brilliant and funny observation.

As a big fan of McLaughlin/MO and Zappa since early 70s, thoroughly enjoyed your commentary and historical info about them and their relationship. Not sure where I got the impression many years ago that Zappa was critical of or not impressed with John/MO, but I think you have provided sufficient perspective that that was not the case.

I don't think Zappa meant McLaughlin played machine gun... I won't mention guitarist I think are practicers. My first experience seeing McLaughlin play the 12 string on his double neck was celestial... amazing... changed my life... never heard sounds like that before. Later I realized that there were other bands just as revolutionary, like Zappa, Beefheart, Miles, Sun Ra, Terry Riley. They changed me too.

Zappa didn't have the technical chops of Mclaughlin (I love them both) but he was far more exploratory, melodic, and bold in his choice of tones. You don't go into a Zappa solo expecting anything, and that's the sheer beauty of it. To this very day, as much as I love Mclaughlin; I get every note I expect, in the same unique phrasing I've come to love.

Mahavishnu Orchestra was a tribe of athletes, Zappa was a born composer, rebel and a band leader. I like both for what they brought into the world, but when you have heard Vital Transformation, you know in which court my ball is ❤😂

Dear Andy. Thank you for your highly informative and entertaining Videos. I wanted to ask you what your opinion is on the two Albums by Manfred Mann's Chapter III from 1969 and 1970, on which he ventures quite far into Fusion and, in my opinion, heavey early Prog territory. I know that Manfred Mann might be considered in England as a light 60ies Pop Dude, but from what I know he even in the mid 60ies sometimes ventured off into his true calliing, which was Jazz. And this seems even be noticable on his ealy "Earth Band" albums like "Solar Fire". Anyhow, any thoughts on his two Chapter II-Albums would be highly appreciated. Thanks again for all the great stuff you put on here.

It’s comparing Klee to Dali. Or something…. Wha-? I love this sort of essay. Thanks for sharing it.

Yes but Zappa was successful (It does not necessarily mean money) with and without a violinist in his lineups. And was more versatile. I like both Zappa and Mclaughlin a lot. I like your contributions here. Thank you!

Now I have to go listen to both, as well as Coltrane and Miles Davis. And Jean Luc Ponty.

Wind Up Working in a Gas Station off of Zoot Allures has an MVO vibe

Really interesting insights.

Jan Akkerman remarked that Mc Laughlin's guitar playing sounded like a dentist's drill to him.

Great video Andy! You should have many more subscribers!

I love your point that Coltrane to Miles is analogous to Mclaughlin to Zappa. That John M and John C are pointing up to the heaveans and Miles and Frank are pointing to the streets. I never thought of it like that but it rings true. The Zappa quote of Mclaughlin playing like a machine gun also bothered me. As a guitar player, I can tell you that a line played at moderate speed has completely different emotion as the same line played a breakneck speed. A player capable of high speed has an extra paint on his palette for expression that the speed-challenged player doesn't have. Mclaughlin and Coltrane's playing are perfect examples of that.

Great stuff Andy. A musician's knowledge, with a fan's energy and enthusiasm. Secret ingredient: a touch of Black Country madness on the side (I reckon it's listening to all those hammers).

There is an interview that I have watched on You Tube in the past, where Zappa is taking questions from the audience on an Australian talk show in the early to mid-1970s, and he is asked about his opinion of Mclaughlin’s guitar playing. Unfortunately, I can’t seem to find it now.

I’m a big Zappa and McLoughlin fan, from way back, in fact the start of their respective careers. I wouldn’t have seen Zappa as a representative of the common man though..I always saw him as arrogant and more than a little sneering at certain stereotypes which remained unchanged targets throughout his career.

YOu omit Soft Machine III, which came out in June 1970. Alan Holdsworth later joined them for some fantastic fusion but Soft III was pure Coltrane but adapted by English musicians from the Canterbury scene. But I loved your analysis.

Zomby Woof from "Over-Nite Sensations" definitely has a Mahavishnu vibe. One of my favorite Zappa solos.

Great content. I love JMcL. His personality and music have been a support/inspiration to me my whole life. My older friend had Mahav’ tickets and was in a guitar store in Glasgow when John came in to buy some strings, before a gig in 1973. Can’t see John going into a bar for a beer, so would have loved the opportunity to buy his strings for him. 🍺 😀 Sad to have missed the orig’ line up. Saw him with Mahav’ mark 2 … phenomenal.. but there will never be another band like mark 1. Never got into Zappa because his personality and quirky/spoken wordy, stop starty music put me off. Now trying to catch up and listen to his work.

Frank Zappa had 3 phases as a guitarist he was pretty good as a blues based guitarist on Hot Rats then he was good by Apostrophe and Overnite Sensation. He was great by Zappa live in New York as a jazz fusion guitarist on Cruzin for Burgers. 3 phases pretty good, good and then great. John Mclaughlin was always great and just got better and better. The problem Frank Zappa had was he was such a genius as a composer and conductor that people thought his guitar playing would be on that level....and sometimes it wasn't. John Mclaughlin never had that problem. But Frank Zappa was basically Johnny Guitar Watson so in that regard he was pretty good.....but he wasn't consistently on the level that John Mclaughlin was. John Mclaughlin looked like serial killer Ted Bundy and he played the guitar with an intensity that could be downright scary. I've bought 3 albums in my life that from a guitar perspective moved me....the Bluesbreaker album with Eric Clapton, Couldn't Stand The Weather by Stevie Ray Vaughan and Birds of Fire by the Mahavishnu Orchestra.

18:00 that’s why Jeff Beck frequently played Stratus at live shows. Frank was famous for left handed snarky compliments.

I remember seeing Mahavishnu Orchestra with ZZ Top and Aerosmith, they definitely rocked. I saw Zappa twice, and thought his shows were more of a complete performance. Depends on what you like.

I always felt both went through conceptual chapters, Frank Zappa being more genre oriented vs Maclaughling genre setting (though not strictly in both cases). I wonder how Mahavishnu would fare as Zappa's backing band... or reversely, how would Frank's fluid guitaring sound over the sonic Juggernaut that is The Mahavishnu Orchestra! John's licks could cover Frank's soloing easily in the "Mothers", but wit and delivery... I think John could struggle... Gold Vs Diamonds really! Take your pick!

I knew there was something I liked about you, love the Mahavishnu, but Zappa is my favorite of all time, not so much some of his comedy stuff, but what you going to do. I was lucky enough to see him live twice. The first time was the zoots allure tour, smaller band, and Zappa did. Some guitar noodling, that would go on for 30 minutes, I was ready to hang myself from boredom. Second time I saw him, bigger band, around, 1982 or 1983.

Wow! We share the same favorite musicians.

Interesting. But where’s part 1?

Saw that show in Toronto, Maple Leaf Gardens. Eye opener fer sure. Thanks for the insight!

Very enjoyable, thank you.

I’m a huge fan of both FZ and his many Mothers over the years such as George Duke, and all the drummers… and also John McLaughlin and his Mahavishnu Orchestra. Throw in King Crimson and you have my 3 favorites of all time. Miles Davis is great, as is Coltrane, but neither of those ever moved me nearly as much as Zappa and the mothers, Mahavishnu Orchestra and KC.

Just wondered what you think of Gong! Would love to see you do a video appraising their work from 1967 to the present day after the death of Daevid Allen and Kavus Torabi taking up the mantle ....or should I just do it! LOL!

Love early MO. Great stuff emotional with virtuosity. I always felt like Zappa was trolling. If you’re not in on the joke, they is only so far the musical chops will take you.

More on the personalties... Frank Z. was also famous for being a first class prick (as seen in many of his snarky interviews) and it showed loud and clear with his petty 'backhanded' compliments of John's playing. The machine gun remark clearly revealed his jealously of John's virtuosity. I'm a fan of both but John definitely was the gentleman of the two.

Well Andy I very much enjoyed this video too, I probably wouldn't have said that Frank Zappa and John McLaughlin were polar opposites but I do understand what you mean, two great musicians from different backgrounds with different approaches. I don't think Zappa was a dictator, more of a perfectionist, yes he would improvise all the time but I don't think he was always satisfied with the performances of his band members playing his music.