Mak Goes To Therapy | Chosen Family Podcast  

“If anyone can do anything it’s you doing something” bars

"It's not a feeling is a number" summarizes Mak so well

Mak, you're perfectly right. Monday is Day 1, Tuesday Day 2, etc. It's that simple. No feelings involved. I stand with Mak.

Ashley: “I feel normal!!” Alayna: “…sorry?” I don’t know why, but this really got me 😂

monday, wednesday, friday, sunday - odd tuesday, thursday, saturday - even i’m with Mak on this, there should be no debate 😭😂

Everytime y’all say “Danny bleep that” it’s funny 😆

Ashley is very existential recently and I’m here for it

53:23 “Nothing is real. The currency you give us is imaginary. So don’t worry about it.” Best outro yet! Just love your brain, Ashley!

Therapist here. I hope I can help anyone who is grappling with this. I agree with a lot of what Alayna said about the levels of therapy. What I would add is this: 1. What we learned in school is that the #1 predictor of effective therapy is the relationship between client and clinician. You can gauge this by how you feel in session. Are you feeling comfortable enough to really relax? Are you feeling judged or criticized? Do you feel that you can disagree? It sometimes takes a few sessions to really get a feel...also, remember that it's going to take the therapist at least a few sessions to feel you out and find what works, as well. Note, however, that inner work can be uncomfortable, so it's important to be able to decipher what emotions are actually coming up and why. 2. It really depends on what you need from therapy. Some people need a lot of space to ramble and simply be validated, at least at first. A more direct and structured therapist is going to make that person feel shut down. However, someone who lacks self-awareness and has been living a bit chaotically or even hurtfully is going to need more boundaries and accountability in session. In other words, it's not a one size fits all. It really depends on the goodness of fit between client and clinician moreso than the skill level of the therapist. This is why one person might say that the therapist changed their life, but someone else feels like they were terrible...one person was looking to make changes in their life and the other just wanted a place to vent with less structure or accountability. Obviously, everyone should be achieving their therapeutic goals, but that's going to look very very very different from client to client. I really pride myself on being very flexible and adaptable with clients. I can be harsher when I need to, but spend the next session nodding the whole time. But not every therapist is this flexible. A lot of them have a one size fits all approach, which creates a very small pool of people that they can work with. 3. Regarding Alayna's third point regarding "are you able to do the work?" In my opinion, a good therapist will at least attempt to break this down with you. If you created a therapeutic goal and did not achieve it this week, what were the barriers? Are there belief systems stopping you from going after it? Was it a practicality issue? Etc. A lot of times, doing the work on belief systems and processing old emotions will naturally cause surface level changes that seemed unattainable at the beginning of therapy. This can also happen with dissociation...a lot of people try to dive right into the content, but a good therapist will start at the barriers. You first have to process any anxiety surrounding getting rid of the barriers, then find out why the barriers are there, then process what it would be like to not have those barriers, teach them skills for handling emotions, AND THEN get into the real content. It's such a wild, rewarding job. Hope this helps!

The 100 ep cut in from Danny was perfect

Mak, what you’re describing could be alexithymia which is prevalent among autistic people, i have it

I’ve been going to therapy every week since June and I have found myself looking forward to it every week because even if I don’t talk about trauma I still have a safe place to vent about my week and talk out anything that has been on my mind without any judgement and often without specific advice but rather encouragement to be softer to myself. My therapist believes that anything I bring to therapy can be helpful to talk about even if it’s just about how traffic pissed me off. But don’t get me wrong eventually we tie it all together and I cry each session lol Whenever I have to skip a week (holidays etc) I find myself missing it and I definitely need to start journaling to fill those gaps when I’m not in therapy.

Alayna’s new podcast was amazing to listen to, and now this episode makes me hungry for going back to therapy. I am doing good since last time I had a therapist, but there is still so much more to discover about myself. Would be great to get back into it

wow, I just remembered my therapist asking me for feedback quite often without me realizing why she was doing it. cool

Mak is not beating the allegations 😂

Somatic therapy helped me a lot, as did internal family systems. I instinctively shut down most negative emotions and have experienced some intense disassociation in my life. Movement is key, as well as observing what my body is doing without trying to immediately analyze it. IFS helped me to be curious about my internal world without the baggage of shame. It’s something I’m still working on but I think I’ve gotten better. Best of luck to you Mak!

Alayna: “She wants to identify her feelings without feeling them.” Me: Holy shit…is that an option?! Is that something I can do because sign me up?? Thank you for this episode! As soon as I got to 35:33, I sent the link timestamp to my best friend because how have I been in and out of therapy since 2009 & never heard of hypoarousal?!? Welcome to mental health resources in Southern Indiana. 😒 this helped explain why I have always hated therapy. Feeling the rise in emotions and then deciding to “not have that feeling right now.” Is basically my superpower. Lol

I really appreciate this therapy convo and breaking down the hyper vigilant vs shut down of your nervous system. This is really good stuff!!

oof. i resonate with mak’s experience with emotions. it takes me four to ten business days to realise what i was feeling because my brain intellectualises the why and how it affects other people. it’s exhausting 😅

I loved my therapist, she was an older woman, we are both African American women so she inherently understood my underlying background, and she was already retired but doing counseling to just help people so she could give two shits if I got offended and didnt want to see her anymore. She told me what I needed to hear, and I kind of saw her as my third grandmother. She would validate my feelings when I was gaslighting myself with how my parents were treating me and time and time again told me to stop making excuses for them, they should have done better. But she would call me out and hold me accountable when I was doing destructive/ irresponsible behavior, like showing up to places late all the time. Yes I have diagnosed ADHD and dont have a sense of time or time management, but it is my responsibility to figure out what works for me and put systems in place to set myself up for success and stop making excuses. And if I didnt follow through, she'd be like, do you actually want to change or are you just wanting to waste time? But the difference between her and anyone else that told me "if you wanted to change, you would have done it already " is that She would work with me to figure out what systems to put in place and a bunch more because she has a son that also had ADHD. Relationships, my career, my familial relationships, my tendency to ruminate on negative thoughts and low self esteem, she helped me through all of it without letting me surrender my responsibilities if that makes sense. God Im so blessed to have had her, and Im a better person and a better adult because of her. The only reason I stopped was because I dont have insurance anymore, but I had been with her for nearly 3 years on and off so I feel she gave me a good foundation to keep going.

I’ve always been like Mak in terms of not easily feeling/identifying emotions and it’s only been as I’ve gotten a bit older I realised I had an issue with that. For anyone who’s similar, like Alayna suggested, seeing a somatic therapist has been really helpful for me. Basically just someone who helps you get more in touch with your body and the different sensations you feel in different situations. It’s also really important to work on this because otherwise people like us often go years not being in touch with our emotions which can lead to significant illnesses like chronic fatigue syndrome and autoimmune diseases. It’s literally our bodies cry for help! This happened to me but I’ve improved so much since seeing the right therapist. So please don’t keep ignoring it! It will always come out in another way. And I liked that you said a big red flag for a therapist is if you feel judged or unsafe with them - I’ve had this happen a lot and your therapist should never make you feel completely invalidated or shame for what you’ve shared with them. You should feel safe and validated, and within that they might gently challenge you to question things.

This podcast and the one that should not be named have helped me a lot. I'm thinking about some of the things you discussed today in relation with my own path on therapy. Ashley, thank you for being always so upfront and direct, I need that sometimes.

I’m 40 minutes in and fully feeling called out 😅 this is a great conversation though and something I really needed to hear at this time in my life.

I related to Mak's discussion about emotions as well. Growing up, being outwardly emotional was frowned upon as not being "mature" or out and out "childish". Therefore, I learned to push those things down to the point that by the time I could deal with them, I no longer knew what event caused them in the first place.

Omg here at 2 am bcs I couldn't sleep lol. ETA: Omg this is gonna bother me. Sunday is the first day of the week: odd. Also being raised in the church means I had to go to church: negative; therefore Sunday is odd. Mon, Wed, Fri = even. Sat= even. Sunday is odd as I said, but also bcs the Sunday-scaries. Zero would be the absence of time, which is a place i want to go, but not an existent day of the week (sorry- I am disappointed too).

I can see why Ash said "I wish I was that way" when Mak described "the void." But, I have EXTREME disassociation & actually don't remember a lot of my life. Especially my childhood. Both extremes are terrible to deal w.. Loved this convo!

Mickey Atkins is a therapist and they have an episode about bad therapists- might be really helpful to spot some red flags

Here, guys, this the formula of your podcast. It's the child coming to her parents asking for advice about how to go about life. Mom empathically and professionally replying and dad sharing his own experiences and cracking some jokes in between. Stepchildren (patreon questions) welcome. Always when this happens, instant fav episode!

OMG the "endless void" line is hitting hard. Made me think about how often I realize big emotions are coming or should be (especially distressing ones) and my body's like "nope, we're actually not doing that bestie". It's made me scared that I have empathy issues or am just a terrible disingenuous person, but I really do care about people and situations around me 😭😭

For anyone interested, the book "Are u ok?" by Katie Morton has many basic questions about therapy answered. Also, what I used to do before being able to afford therapy was to type into youtube all the different kinds of therapy and learn about them- as well as trying some exercises- and see what would resonate with me. In the end and after many trials and errors, I found my therapist who is a godsend and has helped me reach a level which I honestly didn't think was possible!!! And don't forget: you have to want it and you have to work reeeaaally hard to get it, but it's sooo worth it!!!❤❤❤

Omg you guys are almost at 100k ❤❤❤

Wow this was SO Helpful and insightful, Mak that hard part about being that type of person is when that room cracks wide open and your body forces you to face it all at once, you don’t wanna get to that point!!

LOVE you all so so so much💞💞💞 Incredibly grateful for this podcast🥰🤗

the void thing Mak said was super relatable for me.

Looooved this episode, I'm having my first ever therapy session next week, so this was really helpful calming my anxiety about it ❤

Like Mak, I felt not in tune with my own emotions. It took my therapist suggesting I practice noticing my emotions to get through that. Just NOTICE, that's all. I had marked out times of the day to sit with a list of emotions and figure out which one felt most true in that moment. Takes less than a minute. A lot of "content" but a surprising amount of anger. 10/10 highly recommend.

I highly recommend looking into plant or psychedelic medicine retreats!! I have been able to unlock my subconscious and connect somatically in ways I never was able to in many types of therapies. I still love therapy…but these types of retreats can jumpstart so much of the work and programming to get deeper, quicker. And the nervous system release and reset is 🤯

I go into a hypoarousal state regularly and my therapist explained my nervous system as a revving car engine with someone with their foot on the gas and break at the same time after the ramping up part. I'm frozen in place, but there's a lot of energy being used, which is exhausting and when the gas runs out I collapse into hypoarousal. Also my therapist is great and like Alayna said about good therapists, she regularly checks in about how she's doing as my therapist and what I'm needing from her.

Ashley celebrating feeling normal is me 😭🤣👍🏼❤️

It’s got to be so hard to rely largely on success in online spaces for your livelihood because the internet will not let you mess up, apologize, grow, and move forward. There’s no good response to being called out because it’ll all be scrutinized until you’re wrong. On the note of therapy, give your new therapists 3-6 sessions before judging the fit unless it just feels absolutely wrong.

The idea of the nervous system versus the cognitive awareness of what needs to change... Ashley had meditation, and j finally found the right medicine. Sometimes therapy only goes so far, but the therapist can help search for that solution

really encourage people to check out the podcast Trauma Rewired! Lots of accessible information regarding the nervous system and its connection when trauma occurs

I'm a Mak, I lose all emotion if I'm faced with stressful situations or intense emotions and experiences. I partition off my emotions when they become too much.

My therapist always asks me "how do you feel at the end of this session ?" Also the question about whether you want someone who can relate to your identities/life experience was so interesting ! At some point in my life I was actively trying to work on my cis guilt and I felt frustrated by the exchanges with her who knew really nothing about transidentity, so a one shot with someone way queerer helped me a looot. But I also agree that it can feel safer to talk to someone outside of the queer world

Love this pod

surviving is the first step Ashley!! 🫶

Ok y’all, this was actually a really great episode and I feel like I got something out of it. Made me realize I went from that hyper feelin feels shite to being more shut down and being exhausted by feeling my feels and not really wanting to engage

As someone who had debilitating anxiety since birth, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy followed by somatic work, and bodily processing past events/emotions were truly revolutionary for my peace in everyday life and my ability to handle stressors. Hyper-analyzing situations and the resulting emotions doesnt actually make them go away, turns out :/

I remember a therapist who makes RU-vid videos as well talked about how some people try to intellectualize their feelings (e.g. I know that I am upset because this thing in my past is a trigger for this core belief that I am unlovable) as a way of avoiding FEELING the emotion. It keeps it at bay so we don't have to experience it physically (because believe it or not all emotions have a physiological component). I felt very called out 😅 but I think that's what Alayna was getting at with somatic therapy. It's therapy designed to get you past your instinct to protect yourself by analyzing your thoughts and feelings as an avoidance strategy

"Spend all my time talking about the stuff I don't want to talk about and it won't be productive." It took me 2 years of therapy before I could admit why I wanted therapy (that is, my real presenting problem). Big waste of time, right? Well, I came to think of that as a breakthrough. It was productive, in a sense, to get to the point where I could talk about what I had been avoiding. With my next therapist, I was able to dive into the real stuff much faster. Progress! Not to say that it can or should take that long for everyone, but to say that some things are productive even if they don't feel it.

A big breakthrough I had in therapy was when my therapist was like "You're in a feedback loop." My brain was feeling that my body was anxious (tensed muscles and etc) so it was then in turn telling my body it was anxious so my body was telling my brain it was anxious (into infinity) and the only way to make it stop was to be IN my body and work from there. Like, I couldn't think my way out of a feeling.

My therapist always asks “How are you feeling? Did you get what you need today?” at the end of the session which is an example of a less direct way of the asking for feedback thing

Oh, also: Ashley I think you convinced me to sign up to the patreon today. I've been considering it for a while, I have to check my numbers but I think I'm in a good enough place for it now. ❤ you all.

44:00 - I only have power over the things inside me I get to choose that is my freedom, Ashley I feel like you're a community leader and I value your input I've been journalling a lot more because of you and Alayna and it's been helping a lot! I know you could disappear before that happens I've been around since before your canceling and I've been loyal because of your authenticity honestly and ability to navigate complex situations.

the therapy talk was so helpful thanks you guys

M-W-F are odd, T-TH are even, but my trouble occurs because saturday is odd and sunday is even, and that ruins the sequence, friday and saturday are both odd back-to-back. Holy crap, I am about to pester the hell out of all my co-workers with this. What a good question!

Beepbop I'm so early, love your work ladies! ❤

I am of the realm of Jen and Mak. And I completely agree with Ashley that being able to compartmentalize my feelings away kept me sane and productive for so long. Until my poor mental health started to affect me physically 😂

creative therapies like art/music/drama can also be helpful for people who struggle to articulate their feelings :)

Mak i resonate with you sooo much. For me personally, when i feel an intense emotions, my head gets really foggy like i'm not really there. I always feel like i have to manually choose my emotions, like..there should be a button for me to decide. I don't even cried when i witnessed my grandma took her last breath, last year bcuz my body and mind wouldn't allow me to feel it, like some sort of our of body experience. But i knew..i knew i feel bad

Mak you might relate to this: I recently had a moment of rejection over text where I felt a lot of emotions rush through my body but it felt kind of like my ME, my sense of self, my rational, thinking self, was kind of like in a submarine and I could hear (/feel) the flood rush around and past me but I wasn't in the water myself? like I could physically feel the fear/anger etc. hormones being spread through my body but I as my SELF was just chilling in the middle, waiting a moment for it to be over and then I rationally thought about the situation again, got up and made dinner

A lot of research has been done that the biggest predictor of useful therapy is the therapeutic relationship. With this in mind id recommend choosing a therapist based on the vibe you feel with them. Is this someone I can imagine and feel safe talking to about my inner most thoughts and feelings. Also want to say on the topic of therapists and clients sharing identities debate as a trans person who's heard countless of stories of cis therapists not understanding and often pathologising their trans clients- sometimes it is really important for people to have a therapist who does have shared experience. Ofc cis people can be good therapists for trans people but more often than not they aren't.

8:14 it got a weird laugh from me that no one could hear as well 😂😂

Love u guys thank you ❤ one of my favorite podcasts 🙌

This was def one of the better episodes. It reminded me of earlier episodes when you guys were more goofy and energetic. :) Also, I'm with Mak and Jen, I don't want to feel my emotions they're exhausting. :P

You guys got me donating to the patreon on this one

has anyone else thought about the fact the mom and dad both "have" black cats...but we have never seen "both" cats in the same room....?

I’d say don’t read too much into your feelings (like feeling of being judged by the therapist) if you generally struggle with them. I feel like everybody judges me all the time and I felt this way with my therapist too. I would say things like “I’m really afraid that you’re judging me right now” and he would always say that I can ask him, how does he feel about me at the moment. It took me a year maybe to be able to ask that question because I feared the answer so much. Because I had a huge problem with that. Only after I did that with him many many times I was able to ask people in my life what they think of me in various situations. So yeah I feel like most things depend a lot on the context and the problems you may have in communication and relationships - it’s very likely that all of them will be present for your relationship with your therapist.

Monday, Thursday and Sunday are even for me!

Team Mak!! For the weekdays

Monday- odd Tuesday - even Wednesday -odd Thursday- even Friday - odd Saturday -even Sunday- odd

I needed this episode thank you ❤

so happy to hear ashley is just as upset about cody ko’s cancelation as i am

12:54 - My mum read my diary as a child and got mad at me for something I wrote in it. And this is why I don't journal and, even the small amount of journalling I do, I rarely ever put vulnerable things in there JUST IN CASE someone reads it and uses it against me.

Loved this episode! ❤

Sunday is zero and Saturday is six. That way the weekends are both even, and Monday, Wednesday, and Friday are odd. Also since Sunday is zero and Monday is one, they both feel like the start of the week.

Also would love to see you guys talk about PMDD. Not sure if Alayna knows about it but it needs more awareness.

I'm with mak with the even/odd discussion 😂😂

I'm so in my head now about whether my therapist has been just enabling me, I've been in therapy for 11 months now & I thought it's been helping me so much 😅

Mak, look into an Internal Family systems approach to psychotherapy. After a couple years of CBT I started this approach and find it very helpful in bringing me back into my body/emotions without feeling quite as daunting as other somatic therapy approaches. A good book to read is No Bad Parts by Richard C. Schwartz if you want to dip your toe in ❤

Monday is 1, but Wednesday is SO even! like I can't describe it, it is just a fact😂

22:17 - Yes, very much yes with the kitty.

Ashley, I promise when my disability actually comes through, I will sign up for the patreon.

In the movie Kissing Jessica Stien, Helen asks her girlfriend Jessica what her therapist thinks about their relationship - Jessica says "oh I could never tell my therapist about us, thats too personal"

I definately experience hyperarousal, but it's not always clear as to what exactly it's coming from. I'm in therapy though, so I am making progress. Relaxation practices have immensely helped me reduce my base line nervous system arousal: PMR, breathing exercises, meditation, body exercises that calm the nervous system. This pod usually calms my nervous system too. Dabatable if thats healthy coping. Ashley's assumption that us listeners are not okay is unfortunately correct 😂

Wednesday is the only odd day for me. All the other days of the week bookend each other.

watched this WEEPING because that's 1- helpful, 2- so fucking real, everything is so messy when we talk emotions uhhhg

28:10 oh ma gawd i am 100% with you

Is this already Sleeping Around? Cause I totaly have this feeling of a good therapy session. :) (I relate to Mac's words so much, it's crazy)

I could not relate more to this episode and whst ashley said about having the so much awareness off your patterns etc but not being able to action it because of nervous system regulation. ... Im obsessed with this the conversation about some people being feelers and going into the feeling to resolve it and other people having a protection that cuts them off. Im like Ashley and Alayna in the sense...i wanna go into stuff, very comfortable with feelings...but have always dated people like Mak and jen and i dont unsterstand it at all and would love to understand it better. I always thought it was avoidant vs anxious attachment style but it sounds like its something else seperate. Need more on this topic!!!

the red flag that made me decide to stop seeing my therapist was a day in which she spent the whole session telling me what i should have done in a specific situation two years before, straight off telling me i had made the wrong choice. (for context: she told me i shouldve agreed to go on a holiday with my classmates that eventually was cancelled due to covid and that not even 20% of my class wanted to go to)

When talking about how if anyone can do something it's Ashley I said out loud "except make tell them they're cute shirts" 😂 Mostly I was with Mak this ep. Like something comes out of that room occasionally and I don't know what it is. And the days!

On the note what to look for picking a therapist: it helped me to visualise what type of therapist I will be willing to respect and listen to. Do they need to embody a parental figure, or a big sibling, or a scientist etc.? Do I reckon I will be willing to do breathing exercises - or will I find it woo-woo hippie stuff? Basically, in my experience therapy worked when I was matched with someone whose advice I felt like had some authority for me

Mak: AAARRRGGGHHHH

Im with Mak on this on 💯

I feel Mak on the dissociation, that’s my experience. Though I definitely vibe with Ashley on being burnt out and needing some career change. I can probably find something to do with my day that doesn’t feel like I’m just tolerating routine indignities. I’ll have to figure that out.

I'm in the Mak camp and honestly, when she said that she only gets the info whether an emotion is good or bad, I got a little jealous because mine are mostly intensity without any direction at all. It's actually been helpful to listen to my body to realise I have a feeling, although I have not been successful at then connecting them to factors that I could have feelings about. Maybe this somatic therapy thing would be good for me.

Mak is correct! Monday is 1 Tuesday 2 Wednesday 3 Thursday 4 Friday 5 Saturday is 6 Sunday is 7

never been this early.. ello gays 🫡

Monday: Even Tuesday: Odd Wednesday: Even Thursday: Odd Friday: Even Saturday: Even Sunday: Odd