The pulse waves coming from a V8 with headers are going into this muffler 1 pulse at a time. At 6,000 RPM, there are 400 pulses per second. Sound travels 1,110 feet per second so the average "spacing" of the pulses is almost 3 feet. (2.77') That's more than the whole original muffler in length, meaning there never was any blockage in that center section.
came here from ffr site. good idea on rebuilding the muffler. wouldn't have thought it would restrict down that much. 3" plus 3" doesn't equal 3", at least not my exhaust math.
thats supposed to be an X pipe and muffler combined, so you put it in the front part of the system. where the exhaust stream is in pulses, one pulse from one pipe will leave a slight underpressure to help subtract the pulse from the other pipe, amplifieng the pulses so they go further through.. or extracting the exhaust gas fast either way, in the end its not restrictive at all, and making the middle section bigger in volume might split the single strong pulses into 2 smaller ones over the 2 exit ports , probably decreasing effeciency so yeah, don't mod something that is already doing its job as well as it can, can't believe the people at magnaflow just winged it in making these..
Okay thanks, I just want you opinion on this. What I am doing is cutting the muffler open and reducing the amount of steel wool to increase the db level. (my muffler is already a true xpipe) My thought was to just wrap the x pipe once and tie it tight with mechanics wire. My worry is that this won't change the db level at all. I would think the less wool the louder it would be correct?
That is correct. We have sound limits, so we have to repack to meet sound as the packing is blown out over a seasons worth of racing. If you don't have any sound limits, you may want to try just an empty chamber. If you wrap it with one go round of SS packing and call it good, it will likely blow out rather quickly and you will be left with an empty chamber anyway. I guess I would probably do one wrap and just expect it to turn into an empty chamber in short order. That way you can decide if it is better with a small amount of packing or if it is acceptably quiet with no packing.
This is for my DD. Since the x pipe is perforated I can't see it being obnoxious, considering all Flowmaster mufflers are just baffled with no packing anyways. My muffler is equivalent to the size of a 40 or 44 Flowmaster. Just to back up my whole purpose of doing this, I want loud but if I got pulled over I have a "muffler" still there so I can't get a ticket for it. My DD is a 97 Chevrolet 1500 350
I got the muffler you made , but it’s 2.5” , and the center section is just like the one you did , but , it only has a 14” case , you can buy that muffler
So this is interesting and all, but was it worth it? Did the mod make more actual power? What did the dyno show? Your criticism was the restriction the perforated X pipe made but if its perforated it is still going to let tons of flow through. We can talk about how much better this mod will be but what do the real numbers show?
+opelwasp There were really two issues I was trying to address. Noise and size. I wanted to do this as efficiently as possible and so I purposely sought out an X type muffler, which is what this was originally advertised as. I always knew I was going to have to shorten it, at a minimum, to make it fit into our cars very small space requirements. What I wasn't prepared for was the fact that this muffler was not at all an X type muffler, but, rather, a 2 into 1 and then back into 2 arrangement. By doing what I did I got the muffler to fit, I increased the tube inside diameter by almost 50% at its narrowest point, and I ended up with one of the simplest and quietest systems of any of the V8 supercars that we race with. It has been working very well for years now and I repack it once a year before our 25 hour race.
+opelwasp That muffler would've been a restriction and complete waste of money. Twin 3" to single 3" to twin 3" makes no sense and if it's advertised as an x pipe then it should look the same as the one he made.
well I was making my own muffler for racing .. but they do not allow X pipes and needs to be 2 1/2 pipe . the headers are 3" and then its supposed to be 2 1/2 . I figure 2 1/2 to the muffler then out 3" . chev 350 in a stock car .. what ya think ?
can you rebuild a use muffler .meaning the original thats on a car .I had my 1972 cadillac coupe exhaust work on by Midas .It had noise coming from were the resonator is .the pipe going into the resonator had rust and separated at the bottom .the resonator was fine .it look like you could weld a pice of metal around it and it would have been fine .the car only have 39,000 miles on it .they replace the muffler and resonator and the car sounds louder now than when i took it there . they put 4 mufflers on it trying to quiet it down .last the Walker Quiet Flow muffler which still sounds terrible .I keep the original stuff can it be fix and put back .
When bending the stainless sheet metal around the muffler core with your stomach; do you find it helpful to eat a large meal first? Ha. Excellent video, and very meticulous way to fix the manufacturer's "not so wonderful" design.
maybe get a use/new muffler cut it in half then build one the same way that's what I'd like to see then give the Dimension and peace parts so one can do the same
Welding on used parts makes things more difficult. It can certainly be done, but I chose to start with a new product so I didn't have to deal with dirty parts.
I don't know one way or the other which is better at deadening sound, but, as you stated, the fiberglass just wouldn't last very long under racing conditions on our car where the muffler is so close to the engine and the heat it generates.
So he gained a LITTLE more flow for all that effort. Basic engineering says that if you just used two 3" tube style mufflers sort of like the old glass packs you would have what you need.
That was the system that this replaced...two individual straight through mufflers. Not only did the two individual mufflers not provide enough sound deadening, but the exhaust note made the LS3 sound like a tractor engine. Again, this cross over setup was done to quiet the engine enough for our regulations, the muffler had to fit into a rather small, restricted size, space, and I wanted all this with a reasonable amount of exhaust flow so that performance was not negatively affected. This design has worked well for the past 4 years, and indeed we have won 4 championships in this car with this exhaust setup. It does it's job.
I think the effort involved was well worth it. Not only will it help with the noise, having that built in X pipe will also help balance the flow in the exhaust. That's hot rodding at its finest.
@@SWFabrication. you're exactly right people don't understand real street cars need to get around quitely without that deadly back pressure that a muffler like magnaflow has because they are designed for stock applications like a plug and play except for your exhaust
Dude I'd be pissed if I got a muffler like that if it was advertised as an x pipe. Resonated x pipe is the product name right? Considered buying one a few years ago.
If I remember correctly there was a layer of fiberglass packing wrapped on the outside of the SS packing as from the manufacturer. It has been a couple of years since I did this. I did not use anything but SS wool and have had to repack about once a year running about 15 races a year.
You can, but regular steel wool can cause some issues if it gets too hot. I have personally used the fiberglass packing on things like motorcycle exhausts and had no issues, but have never used regular steel wool. I would probably stick with either the fiberglass, which blows out much quicker, or the stainless steel wool packing.
I had a muffler shop put on some mufflers that were suppose to be more quiet than the louds ones I had on, and that didn't happen. They are just as loud. I don't have a lot of room for mufflers. He put on Magna Flow Muflers AE-11229. I don't have any idea how the insides are laid out, but would it be possible to use stainless steel wool to get them to quiet down?
This is a old video but I hope I can get a response. let's say you left out the wool, besides being a lot louder of course is there any performance gains or does it rob performance seeing how it kinda turn the muffler into a big resonated test pipe. ???
Truth be told, we have now put something like 300 race hours on this muffler. It has been repacked and repaired several times, and I have just now made a second one for our big race at the end of the year where we are under a very strict noise limit. That said, at this point, we have had the interior X pipe fail and instead of cutting the muffler apart and repairing, it was easier to pull the X pipe out in piece through the muffler exit pipes. This has left a large open chamber that no longer has any packing or X pipe in it at all. It is a bit noisier, but we are still one of the quietest cars at the track, and I don't think it has hurt performance much. It is hard to tell without dyno runs, and we may be doing a few sessions later this year when we install a new engine, so if that happens and we do a back to back test, which would be interesting, I will post the results.
+myraceshop sounds good brother thx for the reply. In theory not having the packing would make the exhaust flow at a more rapid rate but than again it would fill the chamber / muffler completely before exiting out and might even be causing turbulence. So there's my confusion. Does the packing create more of a straightforward flow seeing how it's also directing the exhaust outwards more or does no restriction net the better flow even tho its somewhat bottlenecking... ?
I have a question. Mufflers for my particular application are too tall to fit without hanging too low. Could I cut about a inch off the the muffler height wise and weld metal sheet over the top? I know this will reduce flow and change the sound a little.
Sure you could, but you will have to deal with the inner materials, and reducing those might make the muffler not last nearly as long. I would suggest looking for a low profile model from a manufacturer. I have used some nice Borla oval shaped mufflers in the past that have a very low profile.
Yes. However I'm set on the S2000 muffler in question due to their twin loop OEM design. They are great candidates for the UK mod other wise known as the Gundo hack for Porsche and such. I'm having trouble finding a shop who is willing, or understands what I'm trying to achieve. If there is an aftermarket enclosed twin loop muffler available I would be interested but haven't found anything.
I have a question. I have a borla axle-back. And the pipe that connects into the muffler is kinda loose. But when im revving you can hear the metal sound. Because the pipe that is loose is shaking inside. And when I took of the muffler and tried to shake it while holding the pipe and hanger, you can actually move the pipe a little bit side to side or up and down. It is welded from the factory, it is welded good outside but the pipe and is loose is inside the muffler. If you look through the exhaust tip you can see theres a little bit of space between the pipe and the muffler. Do you think it can be fixed? whats the best way to fix it? cut the pipe and re-weld? or weld it from the inside to fill the gap inside the pipe and muffler? I hope I explain the issue well
Borla prides themselves on having quality products. Since it sounds like it is relatively easy for you to remove the muffler, I would start by taking that to a Borla representative, or by making a video and discussing directly with the factory. They likely will address the problem quickly.
Cesar Gonzalez Well, we went from a 2.5 inch system that barely made sound restrictions at Laguna Seca to a 3 inch system with this muffler that was WAY under sound there. We did not do before and after dyno tests, but our lap times did increase and our under hood temps also decreased.
Valid point, and yes I should have said "decreased", although I could not say for sure what lead to the decrease as we change so many things on the car in a quest for better lap times. We still do this and the car just keeps getting quicker. 3rd in ES class last year against pro teams at the 25 Hours of Thunderhill and we hope to do better this year.
Edgar Davila They each have their place. Stainless steel wool/packing is much more durable when it comes to heat and situations like back fires, but fiberglass is much cheaper, easier to shape, and does not transfer heat nearly as much as the stainless steel. It is for this last reason that most manufacturers, if they use any stainless steel packing at all, usually do an outer wrap of fiberglass also. This keeps the heat from transferring to the outside of the muffler, which can add to the tendency of the outer shell to change colors. Not a good thing if you want to keep a polished stainless steel muffler nice and shiny. So if you look inside any reasonable quality stainless steel muffler you will likely find BOTH fiberglass and stainless steel packing.
that's cool taking something and making it better think magnaflow will ever start making your version of their product it's superior to the original you should send them a copy might wake them up
+ziratul00007 The mufflers shell is made out of 304 stainless steel. This is best welded with a TIG welder, which is the type of welder being used here.
+myraceshop I thought you had to keep the air away from the welding, both sides, with an argon purge when welding stainless? BTW, I am not a welder (yet) so am interested in how to do something like this myself in the future. All the other stainless welding I've seen makes a big deal about purging. Cool work!
+AustrianAnarchy I use a product called Solar Flux B when I need a nice finish both inside and out. Typically needed on butt joints to reduce/eliminate inclusions from the welding process, but in this instance the welding was done on lap joints and I didn't really care if there was some burn through on the inside of the muffler as it would never be seen. So I didn't bother with the flux. BTW- Muffler has worked great for three seasons of racing and the team has won 4 championships and podiumed at the 25 hours of Thunderhill. So that's well over 100 hours of racing and the internals have just now come apart and so I just modified a second one of these and hope to get even more life out of it by increasing strength on the X pipe internal structure.
Sorry. Can't recall. It was a long time ago that I purchased the wool, and when I did, I stocked up on it. I have a couple of rolls left, but there are no markings on the boxes other than "120 COARSE".
I hate to be that guy reviving comments from a years old video, but for anyone finding this in the future, this is likely a very bad idea. There is a great video from a Magnaflow engineer explaining details of exhaust engineering and why they design what they do, and how it impacts performance vs sound. Summary is that the X design as it was, creates a vacuum pulse that actually assists in sucking gas out of the valve port more efficiently than a straight pipe. By changing the geometry of the design you are throwing the dice on wether it will perform better or worse as well as changing the sound quality. Most likely you will reduce performance hopefully for better sound. This guy should have really done before an after dyno tests to prove that the alteration was actually an improvement. My sense is that it likely was not, and most likely a significant decrease. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RWTARjxiqlo.html
If you really "hate to be that guy" then why did you post anything? As I explained in the video and multiple times in the comments, any performance gains or losses were not even considered. That wasn't why this was done or needed. It was done because I am under an 85 Db noise limit at some of the tracks I run at and had to run a muffler. It was primarily shortened because this is going into a mid engined V8 race car that has very limited space to run an exhaust system. Does this modification suck for performance? I wouldn't know, but I did win 3 United States Touring Car Championships and 5 Western Endurance Racing Championships with this setup in the ten years I raced this particular muffler. That's 8 series championships in 10 years. I'd estimate that it works just fine. I guess I should take pride in the fact that once people start posting ridiculous comments or not even watching or reading the other comments before posting means that the video has become so popular that every yahoo tries to trash it. Thanks for that.
@@myraceshop Easy there cowboy. The comment was intended for future viewers to consider before trying to replicate. Your fab work and final product were fantastic for your intended goal. Not every comment is a personal attack. I look forward to future videos, cheers.
Please help me understand? Does the cross over not defeat the purpose of having a twin system? Are you now not mixing the sound back up making it sound like a single system? Regards Rik
Sound tone really means very little to me in my racing application. What matters is that the noise level is low enough to meet sound meter requirements without a significant loss in performance. This had to be achieved in a compact package. The X type muffler is what does this. The flow is high and the mixing of the two cylinder banks helps cancel out the noise from each that would be, not only much louder, but also at a lower frequency, which travels further with less dissipation. Both things that are not good when a noise limit is being enforced.
Thank you so much for that answer. So the X style pipe is quieter than if for example the 2 three inch pipes ran parallel to each other without crossing over straight through the muffler? The meeting of the 2 makes it quieter? I find that hard to understand. I have a 3 inch system and it was too loud so I put in a 3 inch straight through glass packed muffler but then it became too quiet for me. Regards Rik
+Moshik Galimidi Only thing you might get is a bit of smoke for the first few times u use it until the tape/plastic melts....but performance wise it makes absolutely no difference!
Because we race at Sonoma and Laguna Seca where there are strict noise requirements. This required a muffler, but because of our car's mid engine design, there wasn't much room for an exhaust system. Therefore the muffler had to serve as a muffler and an X pipe in one. I actually had to shorten the muffler about 6 inches to get it to fit between the engine and rear of the car, so the fact that there was a straight 3" diameter section in the middle of the inside of this muffler really worked for what I needed to do for this application. I have made a second one now as we wore out the first one after well over 200 hours of track time. This first one was repacked many times, but finally the X pipe disintegrated and I had to start from a new Magnaflow muffler again. I added some internal support strapping on the second one and also made an alternate open exhaust system for tracks where there is no sound limit. Expecting the new setup to last more than five years under racing conditions.
what? a vehicle requiring dual three inch exhaust would be restricted by that design, he made it work for his application. But you are the expert mr. keyboard engineer
+Bobert Bongmong I'd like to make clear that I think Magnaflow sells a great product at a great price point. The problems for me were that 1) the muffler did not fit the space requirements of my project, and 2) I thought, based on Magnaflow's description, that this was a true X type muffler. I changed the Magnaflow design to meet my requirements. Right or wrong the new muffler now does what I need it to do. It fits the space, quiets the exhaust noise, and holds up to high heat in a racing situation. While I have not done a back to back dyno comparison, our speeds down the straight aways as compared to other cars with much higher horsepower engines tells me we are not losing much, if anything, because of this muffler as modified.Given the difficult requirements of mass production,(ease of manufacture, price points, materials used, patent issues, etc.) this original muffler by Magnaflow is still a very good choice in it's unaltered form, but simply did not work, from Magnaflow, without modification, for my particular purpose.
You didnt "make a muffler" but modified one. Also, I'm surprised you would use packing tape (with no legitimate need) inside of a muffler shell considering what the heat will do to it over time. I'm not impressed.
There was a legitimate reason for it. It was to hold the steel wool in place while the outside shell was fit. And it certainly doesn't doesn't "stick" around for any length of time because it gets burned off in about a 30 seconds or less after the very first engine start.
Whether you're impressed or not is completely irrelevant. You first need to know what was being accomplished by doing what was done. You clearly don't. I have made/modified/repacked many motorcycle mufflers and have always had the same hurdle to overcome, how to keep the packing materiel from unrolling from around the exhaust core while re-fitting the canister shell. You can use a variety of tapes, mechanics wire, zap-straps, twist ties, string.........you get the idea. The fastenings serve only one purpose, and even then for just a short time. The only thing to keep in mind is that, if using wire of any sort, if it is too thick it will remain rattling around inside the exhaust can long after it has done it's job. Thus "packing tape (with no legitimate need)" is entirely adequate if not even preferred. Now you know.
