Making Index Plates Alternate Methods TIPS  

Thanks Mr Pete. Thanks for all of the work that obviously goes into making these videos and for passing on your vast knowledge.

Well done our "Mr Pete". We are blessed to have you. Oh indeed yes.

For those who desire to learn, Mr. Pete is an excellent source of information. Knowing as many different ways to "skin a cat" as you have shown us is a valuable lesson. Keep up the excellent work.

It's Mr Pete and coffee time. Good morning everyone time to start the weekend.

Sometimes the simplest solution works just fine. Years ago and old machinist I worked with was given a 3ft. x 4ft. x 1/2" thick plate that was to have at least 40 tapped holes put into it. He studied the hand drawn E-sized blue print for a bit and checked the other prints for all the stuff that was to be bolted to this plate. All the parts to be bolted on had proper clearance holes for the fasteners. He measured the blue print directly to check that the drawing matched the given dimensions. Then he taped the print to the plate and hand center punched each hole through the print. He got out the mag base drill, used a ground steel center in the chuck to locate each hole and drill & tapped it. Job done in 2 hours and it worked just fine. Everything bolted on and no one asked how he did it. Cheers from NC/USA

Another interesting and informative video. You certainly do have people thinking about all the ways to do this job. Thanks for the video.

I had no idea the Atlas/Craftsman lathes had built in dividing, pretty cool!

Another great series. Gives plenty of options to make dividing easier. The Gingery Dividing Head looks like an interesting build. I saw one video where an individual used a 60 tooth circular saw blade as a dividing circle. Always enjoy getting my edutainment on.

Great ideas. Thank you for info on blocklayer. This kind of info is very much appreciated. Thank you for sharing

Lots of great ideas for marking and making dividing plates. I use Markie's a lot.

Clickspring made a very good video on setting up a dividing device for gears with simple tools.

I once used a digital angle cube to layout a pattern for a 36 inch back yard wind mill. Trying to extend the lines out from even a large protractor left me with errors. Thanks mr pete for showing me some alternate methods.

Interesting episode! At 4:55 or so it appeared the entire fixture was deflecting. In other words not just the grinder motor spindle. At first I guessed the deflection would be due to play in the fixture spindle bearings but then noticed the whole fixture housing seemed to move relative to the work. Maybe it was the gibb screws?I'm glad you show the unsuccessful incidents because nothing makes me lose patience with myself then if I'm unable to get the precision that I want in my own projects. So seeing someone else have a similar issue I realize I just need to adjust my expectations - it helps a lot to know that other people might need an iteration or two at times.

Chalk, soapstone, grease pencil, Prussian blue

THANK YOU...for sharing. Very much enjoyed.

Awesome idea, some of them I would never thought of.

Very enjoyable and informative Mr Pete, thank you.

Hi Lyle, Enjoyed this video series. Watched it while having breakfast. Nice way to start a day. Happy New Year and Decade.

Mr. Pete, thank you. 👍😀

Actually, "markie" seems a more appropriate term than "sharpie" - after all, that is what you most often use them for.

Machinery's Handbook has a table "Segments of Circles for Radius = 1" that gives 'constants' (English and Metric!) for for properties of a circular segment based on the included angle of the segment. The "c" column is the cord constant which is the length of the distance between 2 holes on a bolt circle at a given angle. Figure the included angle of the circular segment for a given number of holes on a bolt circle, multiply the "c" value from the table for that angle by the bolt circle, and you have the straight line distance between holes. Using a set of dividers, scribe the bolt circle, pick a start point on the bolt circle, and draw an arc on the bolt circle using the start point as your center. Move the dividers to the new point and scribe, and repeat as many times as required. To check your self, verify your last arc crosses the start point. This method works for any number of holes on any bolt circle. You just have to have a set of dividers large enough to scribe your values. Center punch at each mark and drill. This is the method that draftsmen (now drafters) used for decades to layout a bolt circle and is much more accurate than using a protractor.

Love your videos. Thank you for posting

when I laid out the holes for my duel magnetic rotter I used a 360 degree gage and a scratch all and it worked very well, it had a high power magnifying glass with a cross hair, it cost about $ 60 dollars used, it also had a good clamp to clamp the arm.

the blocklayer web site tip was worth the price of admission, good series and thanks again for all your hard work

Not all printers are accurate in both length and width direction. Print out an image known to be square and measure it for accuracy. You can also cut out a large disc of wood and fit a piece of bandsaw blade around the rim, and index off the teeth.

Thank you for all of this information. Also I had no idea what those holes and locking pin on the Craftsman lathe was for until now. Thank you.

Great video to watch with my first cup of coffee. Hope you have a blessed and prosperous New Year! I used your "100 tooth saw blade method" when I made new dials for my Logan 820. I did have to look in several stores before finding one. As a bonus, I have a fine tooth woodworking blade. Great job on this series!

I have a slightly newer version of that lathe and forgot I could index on that lathe. Happy New Year Lyle

Good morning Mr. Pete, Good ideas for people with limited resources. Thanks for yet another good video. Wish you would have finished your wood cutting band saw series even though some people think its beating that horse again.

Best Machining teacher Keep it up really appreciate your videos

Just ordered the Gingery dividing book from Amazon. Harold Hall also has a book on dividing available on Amazon. One other method, don’t know if you covered it, would be good old fashioned bench work with a center punch, hammer, magnifying glass, dividers, steel rule, and layout ink. Draw a circle, determine the circumference, do a little math to determine center distance between holes, set your divider, and scribe away. Then go to work with your center punch, magnifier, and hammer. Thanks for making these series of videos, very informative as always.

Great stuff Mr. Pete, there's a couple of videos on YT where the Gingery dividing head is made. Dead nuts simple if you can make castings.

Great ideas on dividing plates. The biggest thanks to your contributor Anthony Rudi. (sorry if spelling is incorrect). The Blockllayer web site is excellent, thanks to them also.

G'day Tubalcain. Good one!

You also showed something similar. Were you mounted a one hundred tooth saw blade on the back end of the lathe and then used a paw ratchet machinism to index the lathe. It was a fairly early tips video, you always have great alternatives to those of us with limited resources, Tubalcain. Thank you.

Mrpete thank you for wonderful videos and thank you for your effort for sharing your knowledge. I just want you to give a tip You also your bike disc brakes plate also

Atlas must have used the dividing feature from the beginning. I have an ancient model 10d from about the first year of production and it has the indexing holes there on the bull gear too.

Thanks Lyle

I notice on thingiverse that some one posted a 3D printed index plate. I haven't followed all of this series, because of the holidays. But I will watch them. Thanks for Sharing, and a thumbs up.

Wow Mr pete, thanks heaps mate, I am a newbie to the lathe and should own one shortly, between you and thisoldtony, I should be on a winner for instructors. From down under

Very smart!

Sixty is a particularly good choice for the built-in dividing plate on the Craftsman lathe. The ancient Assyrians (inventors of Cuneiform writing) used a base-60 number system, rather than a base-10 number system. The Assyrians had a sophisticated mathematical system, but, they didn't invent rational numbers (fractions). But, by using 60 as the base of their number system, division was simplified because they could evenly divide 60 by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, and 30. You can thank the Assyrians for having 360 degrees in a circle, 60 minutes in a degree and sixty seconds in a minute.

If you have a copy of Visio (even the older versions), it's easy to draw up a circle with intersecting lines with whatever degrees you want. You can use pretty precise decimal values or even fractions if you don't want to have to type a lot of decimal digits.

THANK YOU MR P, VERRY INTERSTING . REGARDS R .

Hello Sir. You can get a surprising number of odd divisions from bicycle chain sprockets. Lots of ways of mounting them temporarily on the lathe.

The paper transfer method is very handy, but I think it's important to make sure your printer prints as symmetrically as you expect. It's not uncommon for the long dimension of the page to print less accurately than the short dimension. Print a test image and measure it. Keep that error written down so that you can compensate for it. As the paper thickness and roughness changes, or as the feed rollers wear, you may need to adjust. It might not matter much for a 4" bolt circle, but when printing PCB transfer film with fine pad pitches or where multiple layers need to align, the error matters a lot.

I've seen somewhere on RU-vid somebody that used a circular saw blade as a dividing disc.

Good morning.

I traced around a gear and then tapped the tracking to a plate and used that to give me the number of divisions I needed.

Good Morning Mr Pete! Always more than one way to skin a cat!

Excellent tips as always Tubalcain. Another idea - some ink jet printers and maybe laser printers have the ability to print straight onto prinable CDs. Cheap at 25 cents each. I had my ink jet printer about a year before realising it could print cds. Just use one of the programs suggested, print it straight onto cd, and you have a pattern on a nice round disk on which holes can be drilled. Just need to be carefull drilling ABS as it can split easy. There are drill bits available for drilling plastic - 60 angle rather than ~118 degree. If you wanted something more permanent, machine a metal disk the same diameter and thickness as a cd, spray paint it and print away. I've not tried spray painting myself, may need some experimentation to see what paint would absorb the ink. Maybe spray putty, or marking paint, might work.

We used grease pencils for marking years ago.

I've used the laser printer and glue method on numerous projects and while accurate for most things it has two limitations to be aware of. First, the accuracy of the printer. Paper printers can be off in terms of overall size, but also disproportionate on horizontal vs vertical. Since I draw my own designs on the computer, I include a horizontal and vertical scale in an area that can be trimmed off later. A quick check of your scales with a machinist's rule will tell you whether you're starting with something usable. The other issue is distortion of the paper during gluing. If you drag your hand across the sheet when pressing it down you'll stretch the paper in that direction. Laying the sheet down and then pressing it in place will distort the paper less.

As of the time of this message, the set of those books is available on Amazon in the USA. But very limited stock of new sets, cost me about $50 for the set in new condition. There is also a hardcover set/compilation for $75. I already have a small milling machine, but really need a small metal lathe, hopefully these books will help me build a few missing tools.

Number 7, cad software and a copier, make a divided circle copy enlarge reduce, hammer and pointer then drill.

Blocklayer.com, WOW! Thanks Mr. Pete!

Thank you for your replay to the method presented by Clickspring RU-vid site. Purchased at Lost Creek Machine, Inc 12/14 a DIY dividing head with a 20:1 worm gear. [bench top Fung Ru mill] So I do need plates. Made a excel table: columns of divisions which angle = 360/# of divisions and the distance between hole centers = diam of ring circle * sin( angle / 2) Examples compass rose (360 div) for a 47.5" ring spacing is 0.4145" to make the 69 tooth gear on the Atlas Spindle for 33.25 dia distance between1.51336 or for 18 divisions for 20.5 dia distance between 3.5598 The divisions are big enough to make adjustments to improve and check accuracy by walking the compass (dividers) around the scribbled circle ring. Clickspring presents how to use the big divider plate on or in wood.

Before Sharpies? Yellow chalk or crayons. Dykem on large surfaces.

There was an old video of yours where you made a device for the lathe for indexing when you made your dials.

just walk a pair of dividers around you marked circle opening them a bit at a time until it meets the first mark having made the wanted amount of divisions watch clicksprings video on the manual dividing plate for the antikithra mechanism this is a super accurate method and all it needs is a pair of dividers its so acurate that watch makers use it to make small gears for watches

Looking at making a plate for direct indexing on a small jewelry/watchmakers lathe I have. Hole pattern would be 8, 10, 12, 20, & 25 With the 8 and 12 by using every other hole I would be able to make small bolt heads and nuts. I have a way to attach a Dremmel drill to the lathe and so that it can be used as a small milling machine on the part in the lathe. Working with Brass, Bronze, and Aluminium. The thickness of the stock is 1 to 2 inches at max. I would love a plate with 100 & 360 holes, that would let me make some dial marks on some things I would like to make for the lathe.

Mr. Pete, thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have used several other methods; I apologize in advance for a long-winded explaination. Let me begin by stating these techniques can also be used for gear cutting. I have used these techniques in the past. First method, regarding the paper glue-on method. For GEAR cutting, this will work on a vertical Mill if you create a fixture to hold a sewing needle (secured to the table). Rotary table or not, an angle plate will work. Rotate work until the needle/fixture is aligned with the radius line on paper (Horizontally, this would also work for indexing plates). Second method, 3d print a small gear (appropriate number of teeth) and secure it to the work (super glue method). 3d print and create a spring loaded arm that is secured to the table. To visualize, think of the "Wheel of Fourtune" wheel on the X-Plane, or for vertical, think of the "Price is Right" "Showcase Showdown" wheel. This works, but is far less accurate. Clear as Mud... Right? These method work... Not the best, but I work with what I have as a home 'hobby' machinist. Matthew

Woodgears.ca has a gear tooth generator that would work for getting some spacings.

Com relação a esse assunto nao tem nada que eu possa aprender com o Sr. Pete.

Lyle, thank you for this video series. But you missed how Dave Gingery accurately drilled the hole circles in his index plates. In the photo you showed, he had glued a strip of paper with accurately drawn (by hand using drafting angles and scales) lines for each series of divisions. He did that for each hole circle. The photo shows a razor blade being used as the "pointer." He used the incomplete (at that point in the construction) index head's 40-to-1 gearing to simply rotate the plate until the paper strip's lines "lined up" with the razor blade. I think I may use Dave Gingery's book series to cast & machine my own machines, or at least the ones I don't already have, like the small shaper he shows how to build in, I think, book 3. He started with nothing and built his own backyard foundry and used it to build and improve his machines as his capabilities were developed/improved as each machine was built and used to machine the next one. Lindsay Books closed down, but their books were purchased by some of the Lindsay employees and are sold at www.youroldtimebookstore.com. The Gingery books are still sold by the Gingery family at gingerybookstore.com.

I made a tool and cutter grinder many years ago and on the home stretch needed to divide the screw collars into 50 divisions. Not having a dividing head I used another method. I had a hole plate with 25 divisions and simply transferred the 25 holes, flipped the plate an inserted a pin through both the plate and work and transferred the second 25 holes. A neat trick that can be done with any odd numbered hole plate. Another idea is similar in principal to the popular spindexer. It is easy to divide a circle using normal dividers if the circle is large and the number of divisions is small. So with a 3 and a 5 hole plates together you can get 3x5=15 divisions. Likewise 4 and 6 will give 24 divisions, you get the idea. Like Mr Pete said, making your construction circle as big as possible minimises errors when making the final smaller index plate. Now for a challenge. How can you make a 127t translation gear for the lathe?

Compass, divider calliper . (Starrett 83A-8)

your not dead and you already won

i would love you to explain to you views. the reason for the different distance between the vireos dividing plats , re gears & their pitch I see a lot of confused citizens, the closely drilled small hols & the different larger hold plat's that relate to to teeth to be cut , Renin them that centres are often different in reason to the size of teeth to be cut . I wanted to create a new banjo gear , so I used a 100 tooth great in the group to cut a 50 tooth gear by scribing a line on the plate to give me a rang of 100 & fined the 50 by dividing by two , & scribing ever other line show. them how to do this ,

You missed the dividing compasses

Wow! I found one of those grinder holding fixtures at an estate sale years ago and It took forever to ID it. Now I have the grinder it was meant for also. Sometimes research takes a while! First comment too- not that it's a big deal. The blocklayer site is an interesting resource.

Hi Lyle - thanks for this latest in the series (it's Ruddy like Muddy) and Many Thanks for showing Greg's website blocklayer.com. It really is appreciated that you want to teach us precision and detail.

Você esqueceu de fazer uma pequena modificação na broca de centro para que ela nao desviasse.

Another youtuber said you have a vedio showing how to use a saw blade as an indexing plate. I looked for quite some time but couldn't find it. Do you have such a vedio? I

More than one way to skin a cat! Thanks Mr Pete. (apologies to PETA)

3:46 fingernail paint

I would find a service that 3D printing and have them print you a template

0:21 - Mr. Pete... it amazes me that you still video a printed card stock when you have a video editing package. In stead of typing, printing, and making a video, then inserting into the editor... I was wondering why you didn't just drop in a blamk text page, type up what you wanted, and left-justify it. After seeing your title page... I KNOW you have the skills... your title page has WAY more editing than any page I've done! Just curious... keep up the great work. It was because of YOU that I had to finally get a 3D printer... I couldn't have you passing me up! 2:09 - I have a 1961 (August) series Craftsman lathe... if you ever need a photograph or video clip just let me know and I'll send it you you. 6:08 - Lame excuse... tisk tisk... Poor Mr. Pete. Awww.... (Just giving you a hard time! hee Hee!) 18:23 - And another great video is done !

Most every time "printing a protractor" is one of the answers, the problem would probably be better served by thinking "Large Sine Bar". A crappy yardstick can make a better 30 degree angle than an awesome protractor. And it can make bogglingly superior "odd angles". Yes, it involves the evil math.

How about 3D printing? I suppose nowadays more students and hobbyists have access to 3D printers than to machine tools. So that could be another alternate method.

You get up extremely early sir

Model the part in Fusion 360 (or Con-Fusion 360) and use the Make Drawing function. Scale part to 1:1, place centers in all holes, output as a PDF, print out PDF, glue to stock and center punch.

Perhaps the tool and die guys find these videos old news - first prick punch the centers.

3D print it. I designed this in a few minutes. thing:4033012

Yes drilling threw an existing devising head bad idea 😡😡😡😡

Did he died?