Mango Talks: Armada, The GOAT, & Melee's Meta 

This is the most legitimately angry I've seen mang0, like usually with online arguments he's just kind of laughing and being half serious but you can tell he's super serious and kind of upset about this

The meta has advanced so much that hbox took 6 months off and is now losing to literally everyone who didn’t.

Armada getting baited out of retirement by Mango is going to be so funny

"ITS NOT MY FAULT HE SD'S WITH A CHARACTER THAT HAS LIKE 6 JUMPS" LMAO

It's so unfortunate zain never got another chance vs armada

Mango’s IQ triples when he talks about the melee meta

"The second you stop competing, you can't say, 'I would be good,' because it takes away from the people who are competing." *PREACH*

Mang0s argument was surprisingly articulate lmao

Damn, it's about time someone said it. Was getting old hearing "well it's online, it doesn't count" or "it would be waaay different on LAN." Most of the top players have the proper setup to emulate CRT. Jesus it was YEARS ago where the Faster Melee team said that of you have a good monitor with a fast response time and high refresh rate, you have to set a buffer of 6 because otherwise it will be FASTER than CRT. I think it's lazy to hear that excuse. If you legit don't have a setup for it, then I get it. But most players do now. No excuses.

This is the cell games arc and everyone’s training in the hyperbolic time chamber

This whole video is the biggest "TELL EM MANGO" of all time

This is literally when your funny friend randomly gets serious about something and goes off

The beginning of this video hits so differently now. Mang0 literally never stops arguing his goat status now

The retired players have a discord server called, "The GOAT's of Melee" lmao

Mang0 actually has a legit argument here, changed my mind

The guy who hasn't had to play Zain and doesn't even have Slippi installed said the meta hasn't changed in the last two years. LMAO Leffin picked up a Sheik secondary just to deal with Marth, if that isn't a sign of a meta change then what the hell is?

22:37 "Melee: Civil War dude. People who play the game every day vs people who haven't played in years. It's like old white guys commenting on abortion." This man spittin' hellfire.

At one point he’s gonna be Ken

How can mang0 retire? He's the main character in this anime.

Didn't scars dad tell him wtf you think your gonna be the best forever? One day someone's gonna show up and be better than you. HE HAD NOTHING TO SAY CAUSE HES RIGHT! To mang0s point at some point youre gonna get dethrone.

mang0 adds that touch of wwe spice to melee that makes it more entertaining. BY GAWD THATS ARMADAS MUSIC

Mango is pretty on the dot, especially with all the new tools people have to improve, but man I hope this doesn't turn people to bandwagon and downplay everything Armada has done just from his bad take.

Armada to mang0 is like that one girl that you were really into, and you thought she was really into you, but out of nowhere she started ghosting you and gave you no closure whatsoever. You just gotta hold it 😔

Armada’s argument reminds me of old school Ken when he really thought that he was still the best in the world even after being retired. It’s tone deaf and absurdly prideful / egotistical

I love it when Mang0 says Hmmm interesting

mango: "You know what I mean?" me: I know exactly what you mean.

I feel like mango has so much to say but just stays quiet to avoid conflict, but I honestly love his thoughts here. It feels like hes been on edge about a lot of these topics for a while and finally got to let it out

2:08 I love this statement from Mang0. It's not often that I feel what Mang0 says 100%, but it's true. If you feel like you can compete in the current meta, that's fine. However, at some point, there's no difference between not being able to compete in the meta because you aren't there yet skill-wise, and not developing the skills because you don't want it enough.

Armada showed a level of dominance that no other melee player has ever shown (you could argue hbox, but that was post armada). The question of who is the GOAT is always a feeling thing, and for me it’s Armada.

Large clips of this will inevitably be in a promo video for the renewed rivalry set

I'm back after two years. Aramada somehow brought this topic back. lol

"I love people getting better it just means I gotta get better right?" Amazing

FYI armada was 2-6 in 2018 vs Leffen and 9-9 vs Leffen the last two years... so mango was kinda talking out of his ass on that. He wasn’t wrong that it was edging in Leffen a favor a bit towards the end, but they’ve had plenty of back and forth before and it wasn’t an out of the ordinary streak. Leffen was 25-29 overall vs armada.

"If I could Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind Armada, from Melee, in my brain, I would in a heartbeat." I'm laughing so damn hard. 🤣

Take a shot every time mango repeats the same idea 4 times in a row

LMAOO "poor magi never had a chance, I was furious that whole time"

Mang0 has the GOAT mentality. He'll get it back soon. He's committed now.

Armada knows he's irrelevant at this point. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Armada moved on. However he is still clinging on to his ego and saying he can still beat people. Armada go ahead and rejoin. There is Slippi. Go prove it. You sitting in silence saying that you're the GOAT and not doing anything to prove it means nothing. Armada is gonna be Ken 2.0 if you don't do anything. Armada retires when the meta is changing and can't keep up. Nothing else to say.

6:15 wow two years later and look what happened

I'd love to hear this topic talked about again on the podcast you do with Zain and Leffen, I'd love to hear their thoughts and opinions on it.

As much as I love Mango, Armada is still the Goat. The dominance and consistency is unmatched. He brings up Armada losing to Leffen before his retirement, while Mango has routinely lost to people outside of the top 6 for the last 5 years.

Mango legit has the best mindset about this whole thing. I love that he always wants to push himself and everyone playing to be better. A lot of players have grown a shit ton since Armada left, and I think if he played today, he would find players he was winning against being a much bigger threat than they were before he retired. Everyone really has grown a lot in skill and that's why I love this game so much. Even great players years ago, who were insane are even more insane now. You don't see that almost anywhere else

Editor: “He just stopped playing at a time” x100

Armada is like jordan if he retired for real after his first threepeat Cus of lack of motivation. Would everyone still think he’s the goat 🤔

31:07 most anticlimactic combo of all time ROFL

I’m not saying this to meme, but I’m blown away that mango used precedent in a sentence properly and didn’t even lose a beat. He’s just grown up a lot hahaha, good vid, GOAT quality discussion.

Armada never said no one can get better and that people arent improving or any of that. From his own words when asked on twitch, all he said was "it hasn't changed that much" 8 months after he stopped playing. We should really try to be more understanding of each other, there's more commonality than we probably think.

One of these days amsa is going to take a major, and then we can DEFINITELY say the meta has in fact changed.

been waiting for this oof

mango on point about Armada engaging with randos being wack asf. Like, tweet your stats and let that do the talking. Dropping twitlongers on randos is wack as hell

Great video, also at 00:01 Mango and Magi are the exact percent and dashing away at the same time

Mango is easily the wisest, smartest, and probably most importantly, the mentally toughest Melee player out there. That's why he's been at the top for so long. Anyone with Mango Mentality can succeed.

*Back in 2009* - Mang0 was ready to become a wrestler, until he saw a post from Armada from smashboards, so it make Mang0 kept playing the game to challenge Armada at Genesis *Current 2020* - Mang0 calling out Armada to comeback from retirement, to keep playing Melee

I feel like these mango rant videos are only like 3 points looping. But I really enjoy them still

12:58 Mang0 literally explaining what a rotation is to netplay kids. Imagine never sitting in a 3 or 4 man rotation and knowing what it was like to wait for your turn.

It's true. Armada's stats are crazy, yeah, but eventually, he's no longer going to be considered the GOAT, and that shouldn't be a controversial statement. That's how metas' develop. NOT the goat, BUT A goat. That's a huge difference.

Mango is blind to the massive effect his charisma has on the whole situation. He's super entertaining as a player and as a person, you really can't help but go for him. People want somebody like him to be on the top step of the game. But Armada really does have insane numbers. Every sport has a hall of fame, every athlete wants to go out on top, because legacy matters to them as much as anything else. Armada did that and his legacy really is incredible. Don't blame him for backing himself relentlessly; he dedicated his life to the game and what he gets in return is people who just prefer mango as a person and a player trying to retell history. Mango doesn't have to worry about these things because not only is he super sick, but he has the love of the people in a way Armada never had and never will have.

the thing is Mango used to do the same thing when he retired back in the day

Coming here after Summit 12 really puts into perspective how different the eras are. Even the “sloppy” sets look cleaner than stuff from 2016. Everyone’s just so damn good now. Will people look back on Armada like we do Ken?

I feel like the real reason mango is THIS angry is because Armada regularly beat the shit out of him in tournament and he was supposed to be this RIVAL of Armadas who would meet him on equal footing but ever since 2015 it's just been Armada DESTROYING Mango. Not saying the meta hasn't changed, but boy mango is heated and it's gotta be coming from SOMEwhere ya know?

Where did people get such a weird idea of a GOAT? It’s literally just who is the best in their prime. Are you gonna try to tell me prime armada is gonna be styling or even gonna be beating today mang0 and zain???? No chance

Armada to me is the best player melee has seen so far, but eventually he wont be the GOAT. It is incredibly cringe that Armada is arguing on Twitter that he is the GOAT.

26:53 “winners are probably gona be me or zain”

This is such an interesting discussion because clearly both Mang0 and Armada have pride, but their pride lies in two totally different areas. Armada has pride in retiring on top, and Mang0 has pride in believing that shit doesn't exist

Armada is the new ken. Also mango will ALWAYS be the goat no question

Mang0 Magi at Gen was an awesome set. Glad to see that they train together ^^

mango went in on the retirement home lmaoo

Here after the smash summit 11 to say Mang0 is completely wrong at 11:02 He is the goat

"Everyone thinks we're smelly pedophiles and I've got to wake up to this bullshit?" PFFFTHAHAHAHAHAHA

armada's stat list is crazy, but to sit on the sidelines and pretend as though players like n0ne and moky with a little dedicated peach practice wouldnt clap him up is insane. Top 15 skill level now is like the top 6 five years ago

I wish Armada would come back because I miss seeing top level peach play. Such a good character.

Magi is playing amazing in this video

Mango misses his bae so much

I hope WiFi tournaments stick around after for those of us who are unable to travel/don’t have locals near us

I don't actually understand the spacies meta at all, so I can't comment on anything about them but even a casual fan can look at Zain solo revolutionizing Marth and say "This is a point when Melee meta changed." Hbox and Wizzy also pushed their respective meta games, not as much as Zain imo but it's obvious.

I think some people think of meta as TAS level optimized strategies, and other think of it like Mango as what it takes to win. For the former, it probably hasn't changed all that much recently, but by Mangos definition it has changed drastically. Regardless of whether or not optimal "tech" has changed that much, players are getting closer to it and pros today are way better than they were 3 years ago.

The current meta utilizes pivots a lot more id say than the past 2 years, shield dropping and ledge dashes are more of a staple. Mango pillars on marth on fd are fairly new still idk and zain constantly pushing what u can do with marth. I'd say the meta is definitely not the same but idk what ppl want anymore lol

To be fair he said in 2 years these arguments won't matter and yet it's been 2 years and after armadas twitlonger all of this still matters to an extent

Lmao mango talking about egos

It's getting pretty obvious that this has to be settled with a moneymatch

I don’t think the top level is vastly different in terms of skill because the grind to optimize is so much slower when you’re up there, but clearly the pool of top level players is so much larger than it ever been.

Yeah I think Mango nailed it right on the head when he said Armada says this to protect his ego, makes sense with other players like Druggedfox too People wanna believe they can just jump right back into this game and be just as relatively good but people are obviously getting much much better and it won't happen that way

Holy shit, 31 min. of video? must be someone's birthday huh?

Your legacy and longevity, along with winning Evolution 2 YEARS IN A ROW , makes you GOAT. Thats enough for me.

mang0 explaining his thoughts while playing is like when I'm reading a book or an article and when I'm finished with a line I accidentally read the start of the line I just read instead of the next one talking and playing hard he still right tho

It’s so cool that we’re having the same conversations about melee that we have about basketball and football. So bad ass this game has been around long enough to talk about different player legacy’s. Melee forever baby!

I interpret "the meta hasn't changed" to mean that the things that changed while he was dominant haven't continued progressing. Armada's era was full of new tech becoming mainstream and necessary to compete - shield dropping, more crouch cancelling, frame data being used to optimize neutral and map punish flowcharts, even early slideoff. 20xx savestates exploded a bunch of new options onto the scene and there was a lot of new space to explore. Since he retired what's changed is mostly execution and consistency, choosing the RIGHT options and not just the new unexpected ones, which is the natural next phase after a bunch of new tech becomes accessible. So yeah the meta's changed, but not that much in the same way as it changed while he was paying attention.

You know Mango is pissed when he keeps repeating himself. He wants to expand on the thought but can't get it out entirely. He doesn't have enough words to describe his feelings. Keep killin it mang

Is it just me or does watching MangO’s falco to Lofi put you in a trance. I can’t stop watching it. The gameplay is so fucking clean.

Only people you love can break your heart. Say what you want but Mang0 is right - do or do not there is no "would have".

7:12 Yo Magi I see you

The meta has changed drastically and people have gotten so much better, but let's not pretend that armada wasn't smacking around mango like a cheap bitch when they went at it.

Tournament organizers should add a new rule saying that as long as Armada claims the metagame hasn't changed, he's automatically registered for all tournaments, and will lose in the first round by default if he doesn't play. See what that does to his legacy :)

grown up mango is sick. he really dont miss with his wisdom bombs

I think the whole argument abt the meta can be boiled down to if someone views the actual players as what dictates "the meta" or if the theoretical human-perfect player is what dictates what "the meta" is

Aye I love that part at the end when mang0 states that, out of all the top melee players he respected hungrybox the most. I’ve noticed that for the loooongest time

Has Adam said why he can't just play slippi against mango or leff or anyone to show the meta hasn't changed lmao

Mentally there's a huge difference from playing in the comfort of your home compared to playing on a stage with hundreds of people watching. How many times have people heard about scrim gods across any esport. Stage play and playing at home arent the same. Jordan was the best among amazing basketball players due to the mental edge he had.

Slippis creation is almost means for a part two of the melee doc, things have changed so much

I think that armada is wrong and the meta has changed, but I think what's happening is that when he says the meta hasn't changed, he's saying there have been no major strategic shifts, just small tweaks and improvements to the strategies that already existed in 2018. I also think that mang0 is including more elements of the competitive environment into what he calls "the meta." For example, saying zain, cody, n0ne are much better, like yes, these do change the competitive environment, it means that marth, falcon and fox have become more prevalent threats in the meta. At the same time, there are 3 really good sheiks as well, and no good puffs, so the competitive environment has changed significantly. Also, you have to be much tighter and cleaner. I would say that "being tighter and cleaner" is not necessarily a meta shift, just optimizations to the existing meta, but I would also say that I think there have been meta shifts. I think platforms are abused way more now than in 2018, and by more members of the cast, not just sheik and yoshi, and edgeguarding strategies have changed because of how consistent people have gotten at ledge techs and how more people are going high instead of straight to ledge. Also as mang0 mentioned, the tighter and cleaner play has resulted in aggression paying off much more. In the past, generally, it was unfavorable to be the aggressor because the defensive options and option selects covered a broad range of aggressive options and you generally had to outsmart your opponent at least two, often 3 times before you would get an opening, whereas one mistake could lead to you being opened up. Now, those mistakes are becoming fewer and farther between, and dash dancing is being punished way harder, not just with wild overshoots but with slower stage control based pressure. Also the punish game against midweights and floaties is becoming more refined, which means that floaties can no longer coast along on punishing mistakes and hitting way harder, meaning they have to make more things happen. Then again, I'm not a top player, but that's how I feel as a spectator and mid level player.