In this series we will try to explain Elden Ring shadow of the Erdtree mysteries by correcting misconceptions caused by wrong English localization from the original Japanese. #eldenring #shadowoftheerdtree #eldenringlore
I think the Dominula connection of a matriarchal society is very interesting and worth investigation. They have the same flower motifs as Shaman Village. Their festival is described as something so old that the Golden Order allows its practice, which is justified by how close the village is to Leyndell. I think this also implies Marika knows what they’re doing and why and it may be a relic of the shaman villages practices, which would be a fine twist. It could simply be an inversion of them ways too. This connection is further enhanced by the presence of a Godskin apostle and may speak to the relationship between GEQ and Marika in the past.
That the jars were a form of punishment in the Shadow Lands ought to have been obvious given that they are mostly stored in gaols. While I agree with your remark that they aren't 'saints' in the sense of performing miracles which is an explicitly catholic interpretation but I do call it 'religious' in meaning. To make something sacred is to sanctify it, to make it free from sin, and this is the express purpose of the jar rituals; to cleanse the criminals. 'Sin' is also an explicitly religious term, if you break secular laws you are a criminal, not a sinner. The jar ritual is absolutely religious in nature.
You are right, my bad. When I said "that wasn't meant in a religious way" I meant "in a catholic Christian way of viewing saint" You are absolutely right though, the hornsent viewed it as a religious duty to cleanse those "Sinners".
I think the more important misconception this helps to dispel is that the Hornsent were deliberately trying to create some kind of deity through the jar ritual. I see that a lot.
@@Galamoth06 Yeah, that always seemed like a stretch, especially when we face the results of their efforts in the gaols. It's more like the twisted effects of grafting. It'd also be really strange for a culture to keep trying this, hoping for that one grand success, after which you elevate this person, whom you've tortured and imprisoned and forced to meld with the flesh of others, and to whose people you've done the same, into a prominent place in your culture... such an idea does not make sense to me.
@@G4meplus Honestly I get why you stated it this way, the association with Catholic sainthood is quickly made in the minds of people who live in predominantly (historically or otherwise) Christian nations. I'm sure people have actually leapt to that conclusion.
@@Melesniannon The people that believe this theory often say the betrayal mentioned in the story trailer was Marika turning on the Hornsent after they made her a saint/god. That's wouldn't even be betrayal, it would be vengeance. For, you know, the horrific torture they supposedly subjected her to. They also never talk about the finger ruins next to the village...
You're missing the fact that the jars in the lands between are different from the jars in th the lands of shadow, they have a different model and everything. The jars in the lands between specifically stuff dead warriors so that they can get erdtree burials (hence all the jars that surround minor erdtrees) they're not stuffed with living criminals or shamans.
The only difference is the seal on top, which would suggest to me that the ones in the lands between, having a different top on them, may have been jars marika was able to "save". And given their proximity to tree guardians who seem AWFUL familiar to jar shaman in the growth on their back and way they walk, are likely reborn or "saved" shaman, given the info on their outfits explains they were given new life by a pact with the erdtree.
@@ETBrooD actually I'm not sure we do, we might not, Alexander stuffed warrior corpses inside him, maybe other jars are different, but it seems clear to me that the purpose is erdtree burial for the denezins of the lands between, it could be that shaman jars are among those getting erdtree burials, and it could be argued that the ones at jarberg specifically are different from the rest and are indeed shamans, the numen rune you get could support this theory
lol this wa smy impression when playing the game, not for them to become literal saints. expecially tha onne guy saying like "ge tin the jar, you were made for this". At most i thought it wa soemthing they told the prisoners, like some hope " yeah ge tin the jar, youll'be a saint"
This is an issue I have been seeing a lot with the "lost in translation" videos for SotE. So much of the plot of Elden Ring is about cultural perception and misinterpretation. Be it with Marika's original sin and the Buddhist concept of causality or, here, with the jar-saints. Colloquially, being a "living saint" is easily understood as reforming one's ways and being, in essence, a saint---a good person. The more I see these "issues" with translation brought forward by the community, the more I'm convinced that the intertexuality between, specifically, the English and Japanese texts is intentionally confusing the concepts of Eastern and Western philosophy in interesting and revealing manners to convey cultural disintegration and assimilation or, as the principles of the Golden Order would put it, Regression and Causality. The Hornsent's ability to place religious significance on the potentates born from jars is a clear dismissal of this argument. They may not become canonized saints as in the Western tradition, but their transformation is obviously important to the Hornsent. This, combined with the communities discovery of the conflation between Shamans and Shrine Maiden, has led many people in the community to overlook the similarities shared between shamans and shrine maidens as concepts. Further examining both, however, proves the translation to be justified. Shamans are communal arbiters of magical forces, normally spirits, Gods, and the world of the dead, worshiped by a society. Shrine Maidens, similarly, are women trained in the ecstatic communion between the Gods and mankind. This is a plea to the community: afford some grace for the localizers. Their choices have so far only proven to accurately represent Elden Ring's themes of civilizational progress as assimilating simplicity and historical documentation and restoration as misinterpretation and malappropriation.
Fromsoft loves to use smaller characters or factions, to tell the stories of main characters; Millicent and Malenia is a prime example. I think the Greatjars are an allegory to the Erdtree. We know that, under Marika's rule there is no Death and all return to the Erdtree, but how exactly are they reborn? The Erdtree only exudes two things: Fallen Leaves, and Sap. I think the Sap, like that of which Godfrey accepted, and likely many others (Tree Sentinels?), is the spirits of the dead, that returned to the Erdtree. The sap turns warriors into heroes. Similar to Alexanders Innards. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices... Another great video man. Watching your videos fills me with hope that the lore community is more than the same big lore channels regurgitating item descriptions for hours on end. Keep it up man.
Not that I don't believe Elden Ring doesn't have translation errors-hello rellana's twin swords-but none of what was in the video makes a case for people having been misunderstanding things in regards to the jars and the Numen????
This has been an ongoing issue with content creators looking to gotcha the localizers without doing any work to understand their translation decisions.
i think this is important because people believe marika and radagon have always been one. rather than radagon being fused with marika later by the greater will
3:10 I thought "Shamans were the glue used to meld the flesh together in the jar" was already the common understanding? The distinction that the flesh being stuck to them specifically came from "sinners" to make them "better people" is all that was missing there, no? And that doesn't even change the fact that "the hornsent specifically shoved shamans in the great jars", they absolutely did, this is just an explanation for_why_ they did that Edit: Otherwise, very interesting insights, a lot of it seems to add to my theory that the shadow lands have always been physically separate from the lands between, with death and rebirth normally being the only way to pass between them. As you mentioned the jarring process appears to have worked in Jarburg, yet the jars remain in the shadow lands, some of which appear to have not worked, while others lie dormant. This might make sense if the jars in jarburg have been reborn properly "on the other side", but after Marika took the last of her people through to the other side wholly, without the rebirthing process, then closed the door behind her by ripping death and rebirth out of the order, any further jars could not properly be reborn and were stuck in the shadow realm 🤔 Also, about the Miko, it's worth noting the more common form of the word is what's almost always used in the Japanese whenever the English text says "maiden", especially everytime it says "finger maiden" they're "finger mikos" (or "toe priestess" as google translate sometimes blurts out, lol, i guess japanese only has one word for "digits"? Or at least the one used here is ambiguous 😂)
Great video again, man, keep them coming. I do think that Numen being "descendents" of "denizens of another world", and the stone coffin ships we see in the cerulean coast implies that some race came from the spirit world or another world in these coffin ships long ago (like we see in those obelisks with the ships and then tree creating folk), and then the numen are the descendants of these being. Denizen is a fun word to use because it refers to immigrant aliens (politically) that are given rights to live somewhere (residency or citizenship), but it also refers to any organism that inhabits a space, even plants and animals. I feel it points towards numen being alien, whether from the stars or from a spirit world, and then the shamans are offspring after a long time.
What bugs me about the Numen theory is that they are supposed denizens from another 'world', whether this is another planet, another dimension or simply another place. However the Lands of Shadow have explicitly been part of the Lands Between before the critical events that comprise the history of Elden Ring. The birthplace of Marika is part of the same world, part of the same 'lands' even. This is most explicitly demonstrated by the Suppressing Pillar, where we find a stone that reads "The very center of the Lands Between. All manners of Death wash up here, only to be suppressed." It explicitly mentions being part of the Lands Between. I also disagree, because of this phrase, that the Land of Shadow is an 'underworld' or 'spirit world' or 'land of death' because all manner of Death washes up in "the Lands Between". The stone makes no mention of a land of Shadow, it predates the sundering that split the lands. Death is suppressed in both the base game and DLC areas because they were both part of a world under Marika's reign; a world without the Rune of Death.
I believe the rumours about the Numen were due to the lack of knowledge about the shadow lands. After ages have passed people didn't know that the shadow lands existed and therefore they though the Numen came from another world.
@@G4meplus That may be, or perhaps we're just getting the chronology wrong. Perhaps the Numen arrived in the Lands Between when they were still whole, settled in what would become Shaman village, and she simply lived there before she started on her path to godhood. Given its proximity to the Finger Ruins of Dheo it's possible that's how she came into contact with the Two Fingers and Metyr's guidance. The phrase Galamoth06 refers to refers to her first appearance as a goddess, rather than her physical birth. What grates me a bit about the game is that there are clear references to other 'lands', including people travelling by sea. It's not just the Numen. The Tarnished also arrives in the Lands Between but has to travel 'through the fog' which strongly implies a transition from another 'world' or 'reality', yet their banishment seems more physical in nature. Are all the other lands also behind walls of fog? If you come by sea, do you have to pass a fogwall as well? Where exactly are people like Fia and Roderika from and how are their lands affected by changes in the Elden Ring, which is a divine device that literally determines the rules of reality? Questions questions...
Aren't the starting character descriptions from the point of view of the present day? The Lands of Shadow have been cut off from the rest of the Lands Between for a long time by that point, and aren't remembered by anyone. It IS a mysterious "other world".
@@Fronzel41 Maybe, but people remember Godfrey and his soldiers and they're from the same place. Nobody goes 'Godfrey is from another world'. Also, let's hypothetically envision a world where you have a race of humanoids that have always lived there. You've never seen them arrive from another place. Would you describe these as 'from another world', given that you can't even remember this world even exists? They'd just be a local tribe like everyone else.
I've been trying to make this point about the "Jar Saint" for a little bit now. Folks seem to think it is how an Empyrean is made but Miyazaki in a Q&A pretty much explains Emypreans are born with "multiple-aspects." Folks for some reason are so intent on putting Marika in a Jar that even when one points out the 3 other Empyreans who were born after Marika's ascension and thus the ending of the Jarring of living folks they just ignore it and try to talk more about how Marika had to be in a jar. As you pointed out, Radagon was also not put in a jar. There was never a point in Radagon's existence where he wasn't connected to Marika. The best way to understand Radagon's journey is Millicent. Millicent is one of Malenia's Empyrean aspects that broke of when she bloomed in Caelid, along with Millicent's sisters. Taking into context the item descriptions of Radagon's pursuit to be complete and then read Millicent's dialogue about her relation to Malenia. Read it as if Radagon was saying it and when Malenia is mentioned substitue Marika. (The Empyrean Mystery is not as open ended as people think it is)
@@eazyelof4283 Did you read the part where I explained how Miyazaki himself convey's that Empyreans are born into their twisted existence. Empyrean are BORN not made. As this video illustrates they don't exactly word things properly. They weren't chosen to be Empyreans they were the Empyreans who were chosen to succeed Marika. Also thank you for being my exact example of how folks really want Marika in a jar in spite of the fact we got 3 other Empyreans BORN post "shaman jarring" era. Your suggestion of one was made this way another that has no evidence. Where as Miyazaki literally laid it out for us in an interview. Unfortunately, in this lore convo there is no rebuttal that puts Marika in a jar. If you wanna check my work Miyazaki's words can be found in the second strategy guide in the question regarding Ranni's two faces. I of course directed you to Millicent to be our ingame example in understanding an splittered aspects logic as well as how Radagon displays this in his desire to be complete that is sited in item descriptions. Please provide similar evidence to your rebuttal. Nothing personal against you but I've had this circular convo with already with others. So I'm probably gonna jump off from here. Though I do hope you can provide some description I've missed or circumstance made plain in game that we can reference to back up your theory.
@@Writh811 Something you are ignoring is that the jarring ritual is explicitly about stuffing multiple people together in a jar to fuse into a Shaman and then they are reBORN. So Empyreans can be born from the jarring ritual as it is the process of death and rebirth put into practice by mortal men. Marika's age of the Erdtree is a whole different dynamic of death/rebirth in TLB which would explain which new Empyreans do not need to be born through the jarring ritual. Rebirth is now done through Marika via the Erdtree/Great Rune of the Unborn.
@@Writh811 Nothing you said here disproves that the Jars created Empyreans. Seeing as how most of Marika's Empyrean children were most likely fruits of the Erdtree, the exact process might have changed, but there are all manner of birthing processes in Elden Ring. Marika switching from Jars to Erdtree fruit is entirely in line with idea that Marika, seeking to exclude one kind of horrific birthing process, only managed to introduce another.
@@oup6009 Shaman's flesh has melding power because the Numen are most likely connected to the Albinauric process of creating mimic life through silver, not because they were born from jars. How would that even work, who were the first Shaman if they all came from jars?
@@JohnPatron-j5l There is no definitive evidence of Erdtree birth. Trust me, I get where you are coming from with this one. For a long time I subscribed to Erdtree birth as a thing based on what we could see in the base game but it was never really made plain to be a thing. A lot of that theory is based on a tapestry that depicts people in a tree similar to old family tree designs. It felt like it made so much sense, like we had the exact answer. But then I got to Shaman Village and Enir Ilim. In shaman village we see the Grandmother posed in the trunk of a tree, not to big a deal. But in Enir Ilim we see bodies fused up and down into the trees. As things stand, with nothing directly saying Erdtree birth is even a thing, that tapestry is displaying something completely different than the theory that was being representing. It isn't a depiction of birth but of Death and reunion with the tree. It is commemorating those who have rejoined the Erdtree. Birth is still done the old fashioned way, when it is done. I know the turtle neck meat old description says folks stopped banging but in an immortal society that is bound to happen. Why make more people when no one can die? More over, before we try to take up the Frenzied Flame, Melina tells us "births continue" and this is well after the Erdtree dried up at the end of the Age of Plenty. Heck this is post Shattering so the illusionary Erdtree has even taken a hit. The idea of people being the fruit of the tree was a fun one but fruit of a tree is a vessel for a tree's seeds. We can see Erdtree seeds in base game. This means the tree isn't producing people it is producing seeds like a normal tree. The Erdtree's blessing is almost always defined by its sap and when talking in the distant past, the healing warm light that radiated off of it. The whole Erdtree birth is just born out of someone trying to explain a tapestry we lacked context for. Something to think about: Most of the demi-gods has an identified mother and father. Did Radahn fall out of the tree and they decide "Send this one to Radagon and Rennala. Radagon will like that it has HIS red hair." If everyone is being dumped out of the Erdtree then why would they send Ranni to Liurnia if she is an Empyrean? Why not keep her close like Miquella and Malenia? Why aren't there more Empyreans since everyone is coming out of this massive soul cauldron of the Erdtree? Heck if they are all coming out of the Erdtree shouldn't all 17 of Marika's kids be Empyreans, heck shouldn't everyone else? The fact that Marika has 3 kids that are the only Empyreans we actually meet shows a connection to genealogy, while indicating a recessive nature. Also a living person being put into a jar and having other people fused into them so they can then come out the jar with those people inside them is not birth it is modification or manufacture. By Jar-Saint Theory "logic" MARIKA, a person who was already BORN went in the jar and came out with another person inside her. That is not birth. I hope this helped!
Not finished watching yet, but... Re the ghost in the jail: he wanted not to go through jar-ing process because it's essentially torture; he's pleading he'll be a living Saint without having to be put in the pot and having his flesh and mind melded with others.
I just discovered your channel thanks to this video, also already watched couple of your other lore videos about Elden RIng and it's clear that most of your explanations differ from that of other lore channels on RU-vid however your insights fit more firmly in my head. Your explanations are so clear to understand and they imply that we shouldn't make things too complicated to find the truth in them. There are so many things to discuss regarding with the lore to fit every piece of it together completely and that's why people mostly tend to believe in other misleading ideas to connect pieces together. I hope you will be heard by more people and lore community will take account of your thoughts as well as others to achieve the best outcome out of this mess. Started following your channel already and I hope you'll continue to make more videos like this one in the future.
I believe that it’s shown that when someone dies in the lands between their soul is recycled and someone else’s soul is reincarnated in to their body (ie irena/hyetta, can’t remember name but samurai/shabrei) so that’s what’s happening with the jars also, they get put in alive in hopes that a “good soul” will reincarnate into them, basically getting rid of all of the criminals so they never can be reincarnated again bc they aren’t a single being anymore
"Weapon of the Black Knights, servants of Messmer the Impaler. Greathammer of black steel with decorative embellishments in gold. Blessed with an Erdtree incantation. Further holy imbuement will amplify the effect and greatly increase the armament's power. Guard Counters cause a burst of power." Concerning the Blacksteel Greathammer: I don't think that it is a Numen weapon but instead that it's power comes from the Erdtree incantation that is mentioned in the description.
Good catch, I didn't say it's a numen weapon though perhaps i didn't make it clear. "I said in the shadow lands we get the greathammer which uses the same effect as the hammer of Marika" here i meant fromsoft did that intentionally to give us a hint that Marika's hammer came from here and she blessed the weapons of Messmer's army with the same powers.
@@G4meplus I see, yeah a thematic connection makes more sense. Some additional questions: 1. When searching for Itako I found a different kanji from the one you showed in the video: "イタコ". I don't know whether this changes anything but maybe you know more about this? 2. I saw some people bring up that the Supressing Pillar tablet is also mistranslated that it is not actually in the geographical center of the Lands Between. Do you know more about that? 3. Do you see the Lands of Shadow as the original land of the Numen? The Numen Rune says that they come from outside The Lands Between but originally the Realm of Shadows was part of the Lands Between, right?
I got a wild theory. Marika's seduction was of the hornsent and their obsession with ascension, and her betrayal was to her own people. You pointed out that she was never subjected to the jars, but also, her village is in so much better condition than Bonny Village. I think she tempted the hornsent with the use of her people to become something greater, worked out a deal to at least preserve her home, became queen, then flipped the script on them, became a god, and also by performing the ritual at the divine gate, created Radagon, a.k.a. Big Raddy Daddy. Under the direction of the imperfect Two Fingers.
It's possible, but Marika obviously DID betray the hornsent they did get massacred by her son, who was ostensibly following her orders. So occam's razor would have us believe that's the betrayal that's referenced in the trailer
I disagree, if she had betrayed her people the environmental story telling would have been much more somber and creepier. And with the incantation she left behind, talking about the kindness of gold, everything in that place wants to show us that she was not always a monster. Even the music in that place is melancholic and sad. It's obvious she cared about that place and it's people. Messmer even has an infirmery in his murder castle trying to help the shaman who where victim of the hornsent jarring ritual. And considering how loyal he is to marika, I doubt he would have done something like that without her approval. And if she had betrayed them, why would she want them back? Just so they can hate her for having betrayed them? It simply doesn't make much sense.
@EldenRing2023 That's true. He did. Then again, he was also basically abandoned by her after he served his purpose. Marika has always used those close to her to reach her goals. I imagine the fate of the shaman was her first, and most painful, betrayal. Because it's the first time you get a sense of sorrow from her. I 100% believe Messmer did what he did with the jars due to his lack of purpose, and his loyalty to Marika's apparent cause.
@@G4meplus if saints is just a mistranslation then what is Saint Trina and Saint Romina of the Bud? If Saints is just a mistranslation and so too is Shaman and there is no equivalent word in English then what are the Shaman people still residing in the lands between and how do they relate if at all to the shaman? If both Shaman and Saints are mistranslation and it is dependent upon Japanese speakers who are also linguists and lore enthusiasts (very bloody niche) to serve the lore up to the rest of us unfortunately linguistically ignorant, then the whole story is gatekept behind a language and a certain degree of lore sleuth/nerdiness. Does this not strike you as terribly irresponsible story telling? If Marika and Radagon are not a source of two beings having melded together harmoniously with aspects of misbegotten and giants and everything else then how does the relation between these things make any sense at all otherwise? What is the significance of the “shaman” (mistranslated improper English substitute word) being tree people who meld harmoniously with trees and it’s connection to the people melded in trees in enir ilim and the erdtree burials/roots/erdtree itself? If none of these things are related and this is all the misunderstandings of English speakers due to lore gatekept by linguistic advantage, then how do you explain the words Saint and Shaman making so much sense in the context with which they’re present in English theories and in game evidence?
@@G4meplusAs it stands, we know that both St Trina and Saint Romina are melded harmoniously with plants and in romina’s case plants and insects. This can’t be pure coincidence in regards to the relation between jar saints and the term saints and the common denominator of melding harmoniously.
@@K8theKindthis is a great explanation; my initial reaction to the mistranslation debacle is a half-serious “oh, well, I guess I don’t mind the English lore accidentally being cooler than it’s supposed to be” I was under the impression that the localization team had a close eye watching them; we’ve all heard the stories by now about how Miyazaki pays unusually close attention to how the English VA’s deliver their lines. I would assume, as an artist, that he wouldn’t give the sounds of the words themselves greater credence than their English definitions. So it’s easy to presume that other spoken-but-not-voiced ghost dialogue would be given the same attention. But ofc Miyazaki is weird, so, maybe not. I also particularly agree that it’s not a good thing we’d have to rely on Japanese interpretation to find any “true meaning.” If there are enough damning mistranslations, at this point, I’m ready to throw up my hands and remind myself “the artist can’t control how their art is perceived; if the two texts are that much different, then I, an English player, will appraise only the English text and its lore.” Because, honestly, I’d rather point to the English version and call it “good enough” and not “not good enough”. Granted, it seems the term “shaman” isn’t too far off from what we understand it as anyway-better to see it as a new noun and not something dependent on Catholicism-so it’s not *that* serious, but it’s still good to talk about how we treat mistranslations and how they change how we fundamentally look at the game’s text.
I wonder if all living jars contains shamans or not. The ones who obviously contains a saint never develop the arms and legs of normal jars. Nor do they seem to become the kindhearted sum of all their parts, only a tormented soul carrying pain and suffering. It makes more sense that you get normal living jars from most people, but if you add a saint they mend seamlessly with the flesh but become the dominant personality. Could be why they're still stuck in the gaols, not counting the ones who are in the wards of the Shadow keep (perhaps they were rescued/abducted in an attempt to save them or as specimens to be disected). They did not turn out as new upright citizens, just shamans with extra bagage.
The wording used in Japanese can have the both meanings and we don't really know what qualified as a reason to be put in the jar in the eyes of the hornsent so I made sure to mention the 2 meanings because we don't know.
In my opinion, the jars from base game not contain any shamans - only flesh of warriors gathered from battlefields. Marika will not allow to use shaman-jars outside Land of Shadow. But the rest of the video is brilliant.
7:16 I don't know, I already heard the itako thing but I watched some videos made by japanese players and they pronounce it miko even if it's written using the other older set of kanji. It's true that miko and itako are a bit different when it comes to their rituals and supernatural powers (itako are blind while miko aren't, miko let the spirits speak through their mouth while itako use other methods) but still they are both capable of communing with spirits, it's not somenthing that only the itako can do, so imo at the end of the day it's not a big deal if it is meant to me miko or itako, the important thing is that shamans were able to contact the spirits and that's probably another reason why they were put in the jars with the criminals killed by the potentates, beside the special qualities of their flesh of course. And miko can only be women too btw. The description of the jar talisman was a great catch though! 🤔
People just assume Marika was put into a jar when that is never hinted or said. I think the plan was to meld her together with other hornsent at the top of Enir Ilem, but she didnt go through with it. She slaughtered the tower folk and made a divine gate to ascend to godhood using hornsent as sacrifices. All the witnesses are dead. The hornsent didnt know about this. Also, the jars in the base game are different from the ones used by the Hornsent earlier on. The Warrior Jars only used corpses. The Shaman jars were different, but this is irrelevant
What is the "jar saint" theory? Saint literally just means a virtuous person, so are people mistaking that with deity or something? I always interpreted it literally as the Hornsent stuffing those deemed to be bad into jars (with the Shaman used as glue) to hopefully be reborn with a more virtuous spirit. Not to mention, you literally find these jars stored in gaol/jails. Also, do people actually think Marika was stuffed in a jar cause I was under the impression she escaped that fate and stole godhood.
Here is the thing: in vers 1.00 the Shield of the Guilty states that the blinded woman depicted is, in fact, a goddess who commited a great crime. Theoretically, Marika could have been a criminal and could have, therefore, been punished like the other "Jar Saints". She could have awakened to great power in the Jar and escaped her captors using her power (not unlike Elemer). In fact, the goddess and Elemer are both entwined with thorns. The SHADED Castle is like the Shadowlands, too. Weirdly, the Swords of Eochaid have a weapon art that echoes the Hornsent, for it is said to have a "corkscrew pattern" and the Regalia of Eochaid is said to "dance through the skies", not unlike the Lion Dancer. Marika likely sinned many times during her rise to power, and not only against the Hornsent. Gurranq even asks, "Marika, is this what it is to sin?" According to the Thorn sorceries criminals' eyes were gouged out and they could see the Blood Star within the darkness. Maybe Marika had been blinded, saw the Blood Star, which led to the bloody Gates of Divinity, and through those bloody gates she saw the Greater Will who would later send the Elden Beast.
she was not a goddess until after she was in good graces in hornsent culture, she more than likely committed a great crime when she ascended to godhood atop a mound of many bodies.
@@vettebodee and yet they changed it in subsequent patches to a "maiden", meaning the crime was done BEFORE she became a goddess. This is crucial. It is meant to be Marika, clearly, and they changed the term for the sake of the timeline. Hence, "maiden whose eyes were crushed by the Briars of Sing BEFORE being REBORN in these lands." Reborn as what? A goddess. I rest my case.
They need to be reborn (die) so after the removal of the rune of death the ritual maybe simply couldnt be done because of the absence of death so they became living jars. You could be wrong because if Saint of bud is the same as the jar saints in Japan translation, than saints might have existed after all
I think the jars are symbolism for redemption of your sins. Crimes in the religion aspect are sins. So the sinners find some kind cleanse. To bury them with the bodies of the "shamans" could be a way to purify their sins because the hornsent saw the shamans or "numens" as pure souls. The jar in the lands between is different because Marika repurposed them as a different kind of casket. Purifying by putting them around holy trees. So still redemption but without pieces of innocent shamans.
Ah, so saint as in the opposite of criminal i see. The way i see it is that it still could be a god ritual but that the criminals become a better person as a result. But it does make the god ritual theory less likely. I also believe the jar god theory less and less with more lore understanding. As for jarburg, i find your theory difficult to believe given how different these jars are in appearance and there is no evidence of the innards just switching jars somehow. They have to be a different process altogether, the jarburg ones didn't exist in the shadowlands either, you would think that if they were the result of Bonny experiments that they would exist there, and probably even exalted to the hornsent
How is translation not handled better, why is this mistranslation happening? Would there not be a better effort in the process of translation to ensure the creative vision and intent is preserved? 🤔
I feel like this is more of a wider story telling tactic fromsoft has employed with elden ring in that the truth lies between the translations. Many things are left deliberately vague to promote discussion for years to come, but i feel to ignore the connotations of the hornsent being unjust in their treatment and inquisitions against its "sinners" and "criminals" law does not equate morality my dear friend. the Jars may not be living saints but i believe that the process of melding flesh was intended to create something new and 'clean'.
makes you wonder how cheap the translators were... and their level of knowledge of the foreign language. so many mistakes were made. but you can find them if you speak with every npc, ghost and read every item description.
To be fair the fault is on bandai namco because they didn't give those translators the context of the game, all of the words i mentioned had more than one translation and to choose the correct one you must know the context.
Not only is she (and Radagon) cracked, but she's the vessel (jar) of the Elden Beast (aka the Elden Ring). Elden Beast (god) + Radagon (lord's soul) + Marika (the vessel, aka jar, to house the Lord's soul/god) sounds like the recipe she followed to craft her divinity and become the new god. Whether or not that makes her a 'jar saint' is semantics at this point, as she's literally a holy container for divinity.
Thanks man, ive been saying this from day 1! It sounded to me more like sarcasm not literal. Also saints are dead people, ie a saint cant be walking around
