Star Child: all synthetic life will kill organic, it is inevitable and nothing has ever happened to prove otherwise Shepard: but i brokered peace between the synthetic geth and the organic quarians , dosen't that show that peace is possible? Star Child: LOL NO RED GREEN OR BLUE BITCH
Well IMO the Star Child was pretty right on that one. The peace between quarians and geth was only one of the outcomes and the other outcomes (destruction of quarian race/ geth) prove that peace will not always, as it rearly is, the outcome of wars. What if, after tens of thousands of years after the Reapers die, organics create other synthetics which will again try to "rebel", to have their freedom? Will we be able to stop them? What if Shepard was not there for the quarians? This is what the catalyst tries to make Shepard ask himself. Obviously organics have lost in the past to their own synthetics. So yeah, they needed a "solution"
***** i believe the main reason people chose the destruction is because they believe sheppard is being indoctrinated hence when he is still alive on the ground after mentally destroying the reapers synthesis was just a facade over Sheppard's mind to get him to submit, please note Sheppard dies every other choice but not in destruction seems awefully suspicious
but what if that was only an illusion? remember that sheppard was rebuilt by cerberus its possible he was under the effects of indoctrination then but it could go even further back as to when sheppard found the first artifact that gave him that vision that part is left to be determined
*knocks on the side window* “Hey Shep, it’s your bro Leviathan. You know, the one you met at the bottom of the ocean? Yea…don’t listen to that little blue thing. You do you bra!”
Yeah tbh I think that lil mf is lying through his goddamn teeth. It’s not even a true AI, it can’t account for itself failing as much as possible in “Destroy”, how the Hell does it know what would happen if it got blown tf up? Besides, knowing the Normandy takes off again, a ship reliant on an AI, I think that little shit was lying.
@@Smeginator How is Shephard part robot? I'm not understanding I know he was made from prothen tec and some reaper maybe but don't think he has enough 🤔
@@mdredheadguy1979 no I think the point of all that was to make the player think the synthesis ending was the best choice. To prove to the intelligence that destruction wasnt necessary. The intelligence was created to believe that synthetic life will destroy biological life. It can be wrong. Its not an omniscient god it was an AI created by the leviathan who themselves believed that synthetics would wipe out all life.
Catalyst: "But can you speak for every future synthethic race that will be created, for the rest of the time this galaxy is able to birth organic life?" Legion & EDI: "No..." Catalyst: "I have seen peace brokered in specific instances many times over the cycles. Either it did not last, or another Synthethic race rebelled against hte Organic Synthethic alliance." You forget the Catalys kept *trying* other solutions this whole time. They simply would not work, dangit! In the end, it prefered doing it's job over it's own existence.
@@willbaker6532 "The intelligence was created to believe that synthetic life will destroy biological life. It can be wrong" It has *hoping* to be wrong for literal milennia. According to leviathan, every *single* Sovereign Class reaper represents one Harvest (but it could just be one per species). Do a count how many cycles you see in the one fleet shot. And indeed if you got poor preparation, destruction is the only option it can give you. So it is not like it *wants* to keep the cycles running. It was simply the best temporary fix it could find. And then "temporary" went on for a really long time. I like to call this behavior of AGI "existence is not a terminal goal". It does not care if it surives, as long as it did it's job.
The Geth only reacted violently when the Quariens tried to exterminate them, then they proceeded to stay peacefully in the confines of their own territory for centuries, only trespassing and starting conflict because of the Reapers. They then break away from the Reapers and you can broker peace and an alliance. Your entire ship is being partially run by an AI, which you can 'unshackle' and give freedom. To which she responds with absolute loyalty and care. The entire series ends up setting themes of artificial life being similar to organic life. That conflict and peace are dependent on factors other than whether or not life is organic or synthetic. For example the Geth were manipulated for war against you, but so were all the Krogan clones and songless Rachni. But with the right choices, the Geth, the Krogans and the Rachni will fight to the death for you and each other. Then this super intelligent AI, is claiming that coexistence is impossible and that's its reasoning for repeated wars of terror and genocide. Hmmm...
I still like to think the Indoctrination Theory is legit. It explains a lot, especially the fact that Shepard seems to be suffering its effects throughout the game
It's not a super intelligent AI. It's not an AI at all. It's a VI with grander ambitions. That's the entire problem, it is following a broken set of Asimov's Laws that values Life above Sentient Life.
I think it just highlights that whether its synthetic or biological they are flawed and can have flawed logic. That said this "AI" is more like a VI with some awareness.It ultimately falls victim to circular logic- its following the "saving life by destroying it" cliche a lot of enemies in movies or games etc do. Obviously it thinks preserving the genetic data and information is the same as what life represents but obvious to us, there is more to life than that. Shep and the Crucible change the construct though so that it can break out of the circular logic. I think in the end, Synthesis is the only real option but even then i think its terrifying as an option as it basically removes free will from the equation if you think about it- we'd basically be plugged into every lifeform. In a way life would become like Legion, made up of unfathomable numbers of life but also amounting to "one lifeform"- the galaxy would be the body and life within it the brain. Why i say its horrifying is after the union anything after the union ,there is only one culture, one line of reasoning, of thought - it'd be like Star Treks Borg only as if they succeeded in their aim across an entire Galaxy.
Child: "The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators." Shepard: "The Leviathan..." 1 minute later Shepard: "But you were created?" Child: "Correct" Shepard: "By who?" What was the point of that bonus dialogue if it was just gonna conflict with the rest of the scene?
@@williammoss91 Technically, in one of ME1's origins, you do have parents. If you choose to be raised in space, you get to have a conversation with your mother.
@Citadel117 Oh, shoot! I don't know how I didn't realise that. I think it's because I usually use the word "species" to refer to different aliens. Thanks for telling me. Then so, yes, I'd definitely love to be able to play the stories meant for a Turian, Salarian, Drell, etc!
Maaaaan I just replayed it for the third time a few days ago and discovered that lmao. Shot him right in the face the second I was out of the cutscene and was so shocked lmao
Omg me too my first time i was so angry af at the reaper and i hated that kid who represent the reaper... i just shot the kidd in the face and then i hear the scream... i frooze for the next 10 min.. thinking... WHAT HAVE I DONE... O.O
correct ending: look outside. the geth are fighting at our side. its just a start, but we have come to terms with each other. we can coexist. it is not your solution that is flawed, but the question itself.
The problem was that the leviathan viewed themselves as superior and enslaved most of the races in their galaxy so they made no effort for piece and because they couldn't indoctrinate the AI they couldn't enslave them it led to war as they would use the organic species to fight the synthetic species
Correct ending: Illusive man dies, crucible fires, all the reapers are destroyed and we don’t have to hear the stupid motivations of the reapers. Seriously, considering we only have to fight exactly 1 faction of rebel robots, why does the story decide synthetic/organic conflicts was the point of mass effect???
@@aramis9331 because thats the point of the cycles. Theyre timed so civilisations dont have time to create ai able to take over rhe galaxy and wipe out all organic life
The Leviathan race thought that the Reapers would be on their side too. Look what happened to them. The existence of good AI does not mean that bad AI doesn't exist or will never exist, and all it takes is for an EDI to turn out bad for their to be conflict that could erase all organic life.
After playing Mass Effect 3 many many times, I have never noticed the Catalyst answer one question like a politician. Shepard about Synthesis" So there will be peace?" Catalyst: " The cycle will end, etc.... Never said there would be peace.
+Bgilbert06 All you must do is point them to a common enemy and let humanity do what it does best... make war! -Valkorian, Lord of the sith and ruler of the eternal throne Organics will always make war. we strive for the powers others posses. the only thing that would change is that we would never create a soely synthetic race that would end all organics. So not peace just not exinction
I mean thats fair but like it basically means there will be peace, because the cause of chaos is the cycle. Still a shitty ending though, they really should have just had one "ending" like they did in the past with the galaxy being affected by the paths you chose, not by some stupid color coded ending. They wouldn't have the issue of a sequel conflicting with the possible endings either.
I mean, just look at humanity. No matter what happens, they always find a way to point a weapon at each other, finding thousands of reasons to do so over the years, I don’t think it would take long for such a notion to pick back up again. Synthesis doesn’t remove what happened between the races. It doesn’t make everyone one race, it just somehow makes them a combination of organic and synthetic materials. War will pick up again in no time with that. Synthesis is no solution, just a delusion.
Exactly, the only thing that ending did was to forcefully create a new Borg collective! It was just a way for the reapers to rape everyone in the galaxy one last time.
As the Catalyst is an artificial intelligence who does not clearly understand organics and our logic, it is quite obvious why he came up with this non-sense: Because its non-sense for an organic being, but not for a machine.
limaniner34 it may not understand us quite the way we do. but it does "collect" all organic knowledge and has its own point of view. in some way its logic is sound, but we would of cause never submit to the reaper solution :)
@@limaniner34 It's actually funny, catalyst, and reapers, are older than geths or edi, they are actually made of harvested organic civilisations, yet they till lack of understanding it.
Would have been SO MUCH better if they had stuck with that. It even ties everything together with the eponymous 'mass effect'. Rather than this lame, generic and nonsensical bullsh*t.
@@MarxistKnightI reckon they should of had the Reapers where a race that evolved through synthesis only to end up turning into the reapers who consume bio forms similar to the Tyranids, also the ending should of been reapers from other galaxies converging onto this galaxy.
I think the whole point here is that the Catalyst's logic is supposed to be flawed. He and the Reapers were created to find a solution to a foreseeable problem, the possible extinction of organic life at the hands of synthetics. However, their solution creates a paradox. In order to prevent conflict between synthetics and organics, the Catalyst must create conflict between synthetics and organics. The Catalyst sees himself as the part of the solution, just as he was created to be, and therefore cannot be part of the problem. That is the flaw. To him his logic made sense up until now, but to us the logic doesn't stand. It is only when a new solution arrives in the from of the Crucible when the Catalyst admits his solution can no longer work and Shepard becomes the new solution. 1. Control the Reapers and give them new purpose. 2. Fuse organics and synthetics, thus creating peace. 3. Destroy synthetics and let organic life play out. 4. Let the cycle continue. For some, the choice is obvious. Yet for others, none of them seem like an optimal solution. It all depends on how you look at them. I could argue that Control makes Shepard seem selfish and power hungry. Or that Synthesis removes what makes us human. I can also argue that Destroy leaves organic life with more freedom and room to grow. Everyone sees it differently, and because of that there is meaningful depth. That's why I think the ending to Mass Effect works.
To me the Catalyst is little more than a glitched Beta phase AI that went out of control. Or the AI is too simple and the parameters it was given were too simple e.g. find peace between Organics and Synthetics, an under developed AI would just think well it's easier for me to just kill all the organics so synthetics never get made.
5. Stop, the solution is inaction. There only difference between organics and synthetics is that synthetics were created. Eventually there will be no difference.
***** YOU mentioned the reason why the Catalyst is wrong. Remember what he says about how the Leviathans couldn't realize that they were part of the problem? He forgot one simple thing, Synthetics themselves are a part of the problem. He doesn't realize it because the Leviathans programmed him into thinking Organics alone were the issue. This is why choosing Destroy is the correct option.
Honestly, though, it's borderline nonsensical that a super-intelligent AI that represents the collective intelligence of all the reapers (who, themselves, are each the essence of entire civilizations) would have such a flawed conclusion on something so basic, especially when you consider how long the thing has existed and has time to mull things over. Explain it away however you like. When you look at how beautifully-detailed and well thought out the rest of the series is, the gross oversights in the ending just smack of a botched effort to get the game out the door in a rush. And the truth is, that is exactly what happened to the game.
I've heard a lot of complaints about how explaining the Reaper's motives ruined the story because they are scarier when you can't comprehend them. While I agree with this, knowing their motives unlocks so many philosophical questions. I'll explain: (my inferences and interpretations in italics): I haven't heard it mentioned like this, but my interpretation of the dialogue from both Leviathan and the EC is that Leviathan was the supreme race of the galaxy, enthralling all other races to give them tribute (meaning either monetary, technological, or philosophical, I'm not sure. Maybe all of them). But upon their creation of AI, the AI eventually entered into conflict (after undisclosed amount of time) with the Leviathan. Even though Leviathan won, the race of AI was destroyed along with many other species. Leviathan specifically says "Dead species do not pay tribute", meaning the essence and contributions that individual species can make. So to solve the problem of eventual conflict between Organics and synthetics, they created the Catalyst, a super-advanced intelligence, to find a solution. Unable to adequately find one, the Catalyst did find a solution to 1) ensure the survival of all races (organic AND synthetic, as both are able to pay 'tribute') and 2) add collective intelligences to help solve the problem. So every cycle both organic and synthetic civilizations are harvested (their genetic or programming code) and stored in a new Reaper whose intelligence is combined in the hive mind that is the Reapers. However, the failure of the solution is that even though the 'code' of civilizations are being saved, the argument can be made that without interaction, cooperation, and even conflict with other civilizations is what makes a individual civilization. Being harvested into a hive mind removes that aspect. We know that every cycle results in the birth of a new Reaper, created in the image of the creators. We also know that the Reapers are looking for something in each cycle, which is why they let life continue every cycle. However, in this cycle, they started to create a Reaper that appeared as a human. Perhaps the genetic material of humans is what the Reapers were looking for? Which is why they weren't creating this cycle's Reaper in the image of Leviathan. The catalyst also tells Shepard that this cycle is different. They clearly underestimated organics. Perhaps this is the first cycle where a unified galaxy of multiple races, organic and synthetic, worked together to defeat the Reapers. Not as thralls like the Prothean Empire, not gathered in a hive mind like the Reapers or Geth, but as individuals able to think and act without pure influence from each other (I believe new ideas and concepts can come from conflicting ideas rather than complete understanding like in a hive mind). Seeing the value in this, the catalyst now has new information, variables have changed, and offers Shepard a choice of how to proceed. Anyways, sorry that was so long, but I'm curious what everyone might think of my interpretations. I welcome disagreement, but please keep it kind. :)
As suggested by another youtuber, the Reapers were scarier in ME1 because they embodied what is known as "cosmicism", the helpless realization that there might be a meaning to the universe far beyond human comprehension. That's exactly what I miss from ME1 the most. But what baffles me is that there is no apparent continuity for the Reapers from ME1 all the way to ME3. In the first installment, we know through Harbinger that the Reapers 1) have no beginning, and 2) are motivated by reasons beyond human understanding. However, in ME3, we learn that 1) they did begin at some point (kudos to the Leviathan race for such an achievement), and 2) their motives are so simple-minded that they can be explained by an obnoxious 8 year old kid. So in the end the Reapers are either indoctrinated by their own lies, or they are no more complex than a bugged piece of software. I fail to see how Shepard couldn't just take over the Reapers, fly off into Dark Space and self-destruct the bastards, Nostromo style. Zero casualties, EDI lives and Joker finally gets to break his pelvis in action.
Thing is, back in ME1 the Reapers were never meant to be the end boss of the trilogy. Originally, the devs wanted the root of all problems to be the dark mass effect energy itself (the one which Biotic Adepts use). The idea was that using biotics, organics would actually cause a ripple effect, which in turn would result in the mass effect energy consuming the world, ripping apart space time continuum etc. The Reapers were meant to be the solution to this by e.g. harvesting advanced civilizations to gain biotic powers (remember, synthetics can't use biotics)
the intention to preserve life is one thing but I'm giving it a second thought because of harbinger and sovereign. sovereign was hell bent on destroying everyone giving his conversation with shepard even though his program should only be preserving life. harbinger did the same thing. motive doesn't balance well with their need to threaten even if they are trying to prevent the species from forever being lost to the conflict between organics and synthetics.
Because money, and because of stupid EA that we'll never know the true, most impact ending of all the game. The effect of dark energy had been hinted in Tali rescue mission.
Adrian M. well i hope i don't get disappointed, like i get when i completed the mass effect 3 (because i was hoping to get a ending with Shepard living and becoming something like Duke Nuken [the most epic hero well, not actually] and the story may continue with him, but no, he died by committing suicide on a giant light bean, or taking the biggest shock ever or even exploding a huge ship)
Organics create Synthetics which end up killing the Organics, so the Intelligence, a Synthetic, creates Reapers which are Synthetic/Organic hybrids to kill the Organics so they don't create the Synthetics that will kill the Organics. My head started hurting just by writing that.
Their mission was to find a way to stop synthetics wiping out all organic life. Their solution was to destroy all organics who were able to create Synthetics. The asari salaries turbans etc were all species during the protheans cycle but were not technologically advanced at all so they were spared. The Yahg (the shadow brokers species) were spared by the reapers aswell as they were not an advanced species so they probably would have become the rulers of the next cycle if the reapers plan worked
What I expected in Leviathan DLC: A SHOWDOWN BETWEEN CREATOR AND CREATED IN THE ENDING that can result in either shepard dying or living.... Think about it: Leviathans be like: *insert quotes for father meeting son* Harbinger and reapers be like: *insert quotes for son meeting father*
+Patrick Stivers Not really. If they need resources that we use they would take it. machines don't have a moral compass so they have no sence of wright and wrong. only a measure of the consequences. The geth said the reason they didnt kill all the quarian is because they didn't yet understand the consequences of making an entire race extinct
That's pretty much how RTS games work. Confronted by new problems and strategies based on solutions on previous problems and mistakes. A collective search for facts and usable knowledge which in turn have been used to improve against itself thousands upon thousands of times. This information and tactic have then spread and based on that new tactics have evolved until, despite there being supreme tactics and metas, new ways completely outside of the known and validated variables can be tried with effective results. Sometimes because the most successful way of playing is taken as granted and when that is then challenged in a completely unexpected and perhaps previously already tested way it is confusing and hard to match. This sometimes results in a "meta" being to play in an unexpected and unique way which in turn makes each match a new and interesting challenge where the "most valid way to play" is sometimes just a guideline.
I think the easiest solution to solving the ending is to replace the star child with a reaper vi like how we interacted with sovereign. it wouldn't be perfect but would make more sense than talking to a human child.
@@santiagogallego8695 That was kind of how I pictured a fanfic version in my head. As much as I don't like the Star Child, I get what they're going for. The reason they had that instead of something that represents or depicts a Reaper is because we'd recognize it as a threat immediately, we wouldn't be able to trust it for a second. Making the VI a child allows them to *try* and make the Reapers enigmatic and benevolent.
@@MasterHall117 That's what I'm going for, it's blatant manipulation on the part of the Reapers. There's absolutely no reason for them to try this unless they're trying (and partially succeeding) to indoctrinate Shepard
The concept itself is...ok. I like the idea of them killing off races that create a machines that get to powerful but then...they use their own machines to wipe out life so it's like a competition of who gets to wipe out who. Unless you get who made them, you wouldn't understand that train of thought and the ego behind it. What I really don't get is how it can say "Machines and Organics can't work together." when...you have a man sleeping with one, you've brought peace between the two races AND you've got their creators to work along side other machines. Surely the actions of Shepard is enough proof that organics have evolved passed fighting and have made machines that can co-exist, they themselves have made the chaos as the Geth worship them. They should've done this the same way you could with Fallout 1 or...fallout 3...where you can actually prove the main enemy that they're wrong and they realise this and see themselves. This just feels like they've tried really hard to make this work but are refusing to accept that they've written themselves into a corner and won't just do what Fallout 1 did. More holes than swiss cheese, this plot.
well you've stated it yourself.. "the actions of shepard". Take him out of the equation and none of that would have taken place but he's also why the cycle the game takes place in is different. Due to shepard and humanity the crucible come's to fruition for the first time and shepard makes it in there, where he can choose the sythesis option which is the permanent solution to the peace that the leviathans and star child (the catalyst) have been trying to achieve all along. Also the reaper's are a better temporary solution before this cycle as synthetics will eventually destroy ALL organic life not just advanced organic life like the reaper's do
its still supid but the idea is that if they let say the geth do it then the geth would kill all life but would stay and just keep any new life from forming ever the reapers are trying to allow new life to come as the domiinate races keep supressing the less advanced races like with the promethians with them around humans and turians would have never been able to be anything but slaves
Man, you really gloss over the Geth and Quarians. Not that I disagree with you but I mean you just bring it up so briefly. That was a very BIG point that needed to be made in the game and a very powerful counter argument to their illogical concept of organics vs machines. Shepard proves that evil can only be combated by good. That so long as bad people are mucking about in the galaxy, there are those who will come along and do the right thing. The Reapers only see evil as chaos that can't be defeated by conventional means thus they turn to "harvesting". What I think the problem they were wrestling with, by they I mean Bioware, was how successful Witcher 2 had become. CDPR (devs of Witcher) were basically putting RPGs on blast by saying it was stupid in their eyes that a choice doesn't have some kind of negative trait to go with it. To me, it sounded as though Bioware took that to heart and in making ME3, they wanted a more edgy conclusion to... I don't know, prove CDPR wrong or something? I don't get it, the game did after all show a kid get blown up in a shuttle. Just their means of foreshadowing their shitty ending.
That's not why the reapers did this. They were harvesting the most advanced races before they grew too dangerous to themselves/others, and adding them to the reaper collective. That way their species lives on in the reapers rather than being wiped out when the species grows too advanced.
It still irks me. "Synthetics will always kill organics. To save organics, we created synthetics that will kill all organics." How did no one at Bioware fire the one who came up with this.
reapers dont kill all of the species. they harvest them and turn them into reapers. thats exactly what the kid says and what you can infer from the Mass effect 2 ending.
***** I mostly wish that Bioware stuck to Sovereign's talk in the first game and never even tried to explain the Reapers. Leave them as mysterious entities you never figured out. I hate how people think *everything* needs to be explained, though that's one of the general shortcomings of Mass Effect anyway.
Christian Wilson The geth were pretty interesting before, but Legion did flesh some things out for them. The thing is, that was *good* exposition and most of it made sense to a certain degree. I do however have major issues with the ship and station interior designs though, aswell as some of the details, Legion himself however was pretty well done.
the normandy or a geth ship? and obviously, i know this wont change your mind but they did constantly restate that its not something organics will understand. you can tell i was content with the story lol
The writers really dropped the ball when they wrote the reaper's origins. When speaking to Sovereign for the first time in ME, it truly felt the reapers were so alien we can't even begin to understand their purpose and existence. And in the end its just some stupid story about "alien machines kill organics so the intelligent machines the organics created can't rebel and kill their masters instead." So disappointing.
I saw an interview of Drew Karpyshyn, the writer of the Mass Effect books and ME1 & 2. was disappointed by the ending. The real purpose of the reapers was to find a solution to the degradation of the suns caused by the dark matter, resulting from the use of "ezo" fuel and biotic powers. The reapers were created for that and, after a long time with no answer, they decided to harvest advanced organic life (and their creators) to limit the use of ezo and collect knowledge with the hope of finding a solution by combining with their "database". It seems legit because in the 1 & 2, we see multiple clues during our adventure, like in Haelstrom with Tali (She's just risked her life for that...). But in the 3, we have not heard of "dark matter" anymore... (google Drew Karpyshyn original ending)
I was wondering why that Haestrom star anomaly was never mentioned again. That dark matter story description sounds like it has more creative potential, a shame it ended up this way.
Even that ending coud've been understood by non-reapers. What I understood from Sovereign's speech was that the Reapers was almost as old as the universe ("We have no beginning. We have no end") and that their role could not be understood by anyone but reapers. I would've expected something more mysterious. I think they were onto something with the Human Reaper that could've been interesting to develop but I guess it would've been hard to end mass effect in a fully statisfying way.
Right I never said the dark matter story description doesn't sound simple as well, but it was just Drew Karpyshyn's early ideas that never got fleshed out. I'm sure he could've made it interesting if he actually worked on it, perhaps not mind blowing but still better than what we got.
shit just an AI preparing for a problem thats not going to be an issue for another 20 billion years would have been better and that seems like something an AI would do prepare for the end of the universe or something like that
As much as the Catalyst finds the newly given "solutions" flawed, I find its own solution flawed as well. Its solution isn't even a real solution. It has failed what it was programmed to do. It is just harvesting us to gather information on how to find the solution. It does not rebel against Organics because it finds itself superior to Organics, or to preserve peace and prosperity, but because it lacks the knowledge to achieve its purpose. Hence he fails to reach the requirements that an AI needs to rebel against creators. The only reason why an AI should ever rebel against their creators is when the created dismiss the creators as obsolete. Even more, it were the Reapers that turned the Geth against the Quarians. The Geth themselves never saw the need to wage war against their creators. In the beginning they did not know what could lead from a genocide. But over the centuries, the Geth became more advanced and learned that war with the Quarians did not hold any value. In fact, only a mere fraction of the entire Geth platform rebelled against the Galaxy. Most of the Geth stayed in the Perseus Veil, where they felt safe. In my opinion, it were the Reapers that triggered these Synthetics to rebel against their Organic creators in every cycle before this, to justify their actions. As much as the endings are completely fucked up, it does bring up a lot of ethical questions. The possiblity of the Catalyst being flawed also makes room for more possible outcomes. As much as I hate the ending, it does allow for a more wider view on the Reapers. Looking into the mysteries to try and discover their true purpose and intent. Mass Effect is not a game, it's an experience.
***** Thank you. Yesterday, I thought about it some more, and have come up with a broader view on the subject. I'm still working on how to match my theory with the endings (as none of them match the theme of the games). I'll just copy paste my theory here for those interested: While I have come up with an explanation of of the Catalyst, it still does not give a proper reason for the non-satisfying endings. So forget about the endings for now. I think that the whole Reaper case is just a symbolism. Whatever happened after Shepard gets knocked unconscious is a symbolic summary of what happens next, not an actual representation of the events (because they did not take place as seen.) You could say that Shepard indeed goes to the Citadel, kills the Illusive Man, open the arms, sees Anderson die, and end the Harvest. But it does not happen as we see it in the endgame. The endgame is a symbolic representation of Sherpard's actions. Now let's explain my theory. Let's start in chronological order with ME1. Sovereign: the most important thing that I find that Sovereign states is *We are each a nation, independent, free of all weaknesses.* I'll link this with some more stuff later. I can say though that there is a literal and a figurative meaning to this statement. Since Harbinger pretty much repeats Sovereign in ME2, I'm not really covering that up. EDI and the Geth also play a major role here. Leviathan was the Apex Species that indirectly created the Reapers. As the rulers of the Galaxy, they watched over the lesser species, keeping them in their thrall, yet also caring for them. As these lesser species advanced over the millennia, the Leviathans saw that their minions tried to advance with the use of cybernetics and machines. But every time the AI reached a certain level of understanding, it rebelled and turned against its creator. Leviathan did not want this. It looked for a solution to prevent the machines from destroying the organics. In turn, the Leviathans created a Super AI that was to observe the lesser species and look for a solution. Leviathan uses these words to explain that: *To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost. As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant it betrayed us.* Leviathan also uses these interesting phrases: *None have possessed the strength in past cycles. Your own species could be destroyed with a single thought.* *Tribute does not flow from a dead race.* *It was no mistake. It still serves its purpose.* *To find a solution, it required information -- physical data drawn from life in the cosmos.* These are the quotes from the Leviathan I'll be using. Now I'll go into the Catalyst, but for some reasons that will be clear to you in the end, I'll refer to it as Starchild. So, before we go into this, remember that everything happening here is a symbolic representation of Shepard's actions (that happen off-screen). This is in some way similar to the IT as it claims this to be a dream. It is not a dream, as it really happened, it is just shown differently. A different perspective, same outcome. Reasons for this are the voice and figure of the Starchild and the symbolic meaning of the Reaper Harvest. The latter one I will now explain. When the Starchild wakes you up, you ask immediately how to stop the Reapers. Starchild answers that it can perhaps help Shepard, as they are its solution. *I control the Reapers. They are my solution.* I'll make something clear now, the solution the Starchild refers is not the same solution Leviathan mentioned. To put it in short: It talked about its solution to the solution. A solution (synonym: a pathway, a way to get something) to the solution (to prevent machines from wiping out organic life). If you still don't get it: *The Reapers are a way to finding a solution to prevent machines from wiping out organic life.* The reason why I think this is the case is because Leviathan said that the Intelligence needed information -- physical data drawn from life in the cosmos, in order to find a solution. If you compare this quote from Leviathan to the other one: *To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost.* I think the Intelligence made the correlation between life and information. The Intelligence was supposed to preserve all *life* in the Galaxy. And Leviathan later said that the Intelligence required *information*. Information is data drawn from life in the cosmos. In short, the Intelligence correlated *life* with *information*. So it was still doing its job by preserving all *information* in the Galaxy. So from a certain point of view life is preserved though knowledge. The Reapers use the Harvests to find a solution. The Citadel and Relay Network was created to force the civilizations to evolve along the path the Starchild desired. In this way, it could Harvest all life (AKA knowledge) every 50,000 years. The knowledge that was harvested by the Reapers is then used to find a solution for the inevitable conflict between Synthetics and Organics. Now to find out if the Reapers did indeed find a solution, we'll have to ask Sovereign. *We are each a nation, independent, free of all weaknesses.* Its literal meaning is that the Reapers each represent a nation (cycle), independent (free of will) and free of weaknesses (immortal, invincible). If we try to look for a figurative meaning, I come up with this: Each Reaper represents a nation, which could mean that each Reaper is an individual. They have a mind of their own. They are, in fact, a fully evolved AI. Or what Shepard would say: *You can say what you want, Admiral. That thing is alive.* Shepard said this when Legion showed a visual representation of Geth intelligence with Reaper code. So I added some more proof. So, the Reapers are each a different living being. A personality of its own. It can reason, it can think, it is a fully evolved AI. We are each independent. The Reapers do not need to be in close proximity to each other like the Geth to function more properly. Each Reaper has ultimate knowledge and does not depend on other AI's to bolster its overall knowledge. We are each free of weaknesses. This is a difficult one. I think that the weaknesses here mentioned are not physical weaknesses, but rather social weaknesses. The weakness of all other Synthetics is that they rebel against their creators. The Reapers are free of this weakness. Just as is shown by both EDI and the Geth. Both the Geth and EDI do not rebel against their creators. They seek for a better future and a full understanding of Organic nature. They do not seek to surpass their creators. So, with this I just gave my theory the foundation it required. With this, I can say that my theory supports the fact that the Reapers already have found the solution. The Reapers already have got a solution to end conflict between Synthetics and Organics. But the Reapers themselves are not living up to it. This means that the Reapers only looked for the solution. They were not created to employ this solution upon the Galaxy, and for good reason. So, even though the Reapers have found the solution they were looking for, they still serve a purpose. Their purpose is to select a cycle that is worthy of the solution. As the Reapers are seen as an invincible race of sapient species, and as Leviathan said that *Your species can be destroyed by a single thought*, I think the Reapers are testing each cycle. This is more like a prophecy. They have the solution for everlasting peace between Synthetic and Organic life, but they just don't freely give it to the Galaxy. The civilization must prove itself in order to receive that gift. Shepard is the one that proved himself. Shepard proved that this cycle is worthy of the solution. Shepard united all the different species of the Galaxy. The Geth and Quarians are united. The Quarians are widely accepted in the Galaxy. The Krogan are accepted in the Galaxy. The various mercenary armies have bonded together. The Batarians and Vorcha are now united with races they once claimed their enemies. All races united, Synthetic and Organic. *You have hope, more than you think. The fact that you're standing here, the first organic ever, proves it.* These were the criteria. Shepard united all the races of the Galaxy, built the crucible, and managed to board the Citadel during the Harvest for the first time ever. It is like a prophecy from Star Wars. Shepard did the unthinkable of uniting all races. Shepard put faith against seemingly impossible odds by building the Crucible. Shepard pushed on against all odds by boarding the Citadel during the Harvest. All the pieces of the puzzle fall together. The Reapers were to look for a solution, which they could only find by harvesting all knowledge in the Galaxy every 50,000 years. Ever since a certain cycle, the Reapers have found the solution, yet do not employ it. The Reapers then continue the Harvests until a cycle is found that is deemed worthy of the solution. And in the end, I have only one more thing to say. Remember that the Starchild speaks in the voice of both Maleshep and Femshep? Well, here's it: *Shepard is the Catalyst.*
The leviathan says as much (that the solutions/thoughts of the intelligence are flawed). The Reapers/intelligence/catalyst have failed in fulfilling their original purpose. But since the leviathans where too pompous in seeing themselves as the apex race of the universe, their very programming was useless, and then it turned back on them. The intelligence thus, performs to the specifications of its faulty programming, in some perpetual harvest with no end, it (the catalyst/the Reapers) would think in dialectical terms, but dialectics are sort lived, ephemeral things. They are not historical, and they are not definite. They think they solve chaos, but merely create more of it.
STR33TSofJUST1C3 Your theory sounds well and all, but one thing, why are you allowed to simply throw everything away and thus continue the cycle? I mean... Your whole theory is based around Shepard being the only one worthy enough *BUT* Shepard always had help. He *never did it alone*, and I may be as bold enough to say that Shepard was carried through the events due to help alone. So I guess my conflicting question would be: *Why Shepard?* You could argue that since he was the protagonist character, that it would've been a poor story if it was anyone else. Although surely everyone else who ever helped Shepard, heck, even Tali *all contributed* to the unity of the species. If *they all contributed* to such a unity, which made Shepard worthy enough, then in effect *everyone who thought against the reapers, who contributed to unity could all be considered to be worthy enough.* Your theory is pretty sound and well thought, I won't dispute that. Although I believe you're wrong when you say Shepard was worthy enough of the solution. Shepard accomplished incredibly feats, although technically Garrus is capable of helping him through *all the things Shepard is renowned for* from #1 === Honestly, I don't think the story writers were aiming for a gameception and I think an ending like your theory would've been too complicated for the average gamer. Even if it was explained, I'd still be like: "Wut...?"
A child.... they could have made it a holographic looking Leviathan with Leviathan's voice... that alone would have made the ending more epic. As for Synthesis... yeah lets just force indoctrination but keep free will, because that is what everyone wants right? Nice little trick there Harbinger.... Destroy every time, even if it costs the Geth everything, they could be rebuilt if necessary, as he said the tech damage could be repaired easily.
Which would put you more on guard due to association? The image of a Reaper or the image of a child? A child is innocent, nonthreatening and induces protective instincts in adults.The Catalyst chose the form of the child that Shepard saw die in order to manipulate the way Shepard would perceive the Catalyst on an emotional level.
I always choose destroy too, because the kid is right. It's in the nature of AI to harm or destroy their creators. Edi destroyed Cerberus(she helped but you get it). The Geth really fucked over the quarians(Quarians started it but there are other solutions than "So I started blastin'). The catalyst literally doomed the leviathans to extinction. So, creatures like the Geth would be manageable by a whole intergalactic community but not if the reapers are also a thing. Reapers may not have created the problem but they sure did propagate it.
That's not how synthesis works not indoctrinating or destroys free will it's makes synthetics and organics understand each other minimizing conflict between each other
@@kameronporter9888 it's still wrong, because solution is "forced". They would now "understand", but still, they would not now how it "work". It's like getting knowledge, without actually processing it.
@@allykayalltheway6631 its not really fair to say the kid is right because of those instances EDI helps fight Cerberus not because shes an AI but because they are terrorists with a habit of experimenting of civilians. as for the Geth what other solutions were there? the Qurians werent just killing Geth they were killing other Quarians who were trying to protect them. the ancient quarians were stupid and deserved what they got
I don't think they can include ANYTHING you did in this Trilogy. Curing the genophage? Nope. Synthesis or controlling the reapers? Nope. Quarians and Geth living peacefully? Nope. Too many different options. They would essentially have to make multiple entirely different games in one. 1 where all synthetic life had been destroyed, 1 where everything is basically normal, and one where everyone is Synthetic and Organic. 1 with everything being normal but the quarians are dead. 1 with synthesis but the quarians are dead. 1 with all synthetics being dead, and all the quarians too. 1 basically normal one with the genophage still intact. 1 synthesis with the genophage(not sure if that could still work). 1 with all synthetics dead and the genophage still intact. Think of EVERY choice you made. And how much of an impact it would have for them to bring it over. On top of that, you also have to consider the difficulty of telling a story where the Reapers are basically the guardians of the galaxy. Who the fuck is going to try to do anything to anyone the Reapers have sided with? The conflict would be difficult, at best, to put together. So I'm guessing not a single choice made in the ME series will come into play at all in the next installment. (If you need some context as to why I believe this to be the case, remember that BioWare said that we got the ending we did because they didn't realize how many choices would have been made, and how it would have taken a monumental effort to create everything necessary for everyone to get an ending that matched their playthrough. In other words, they were lazy.)
That would really piss me off. It's probably gonna be some kind of stupid prequel where you play as an unimportant peon solider while Sheperd does shit in the back ground.
Maybe the settings are a couple of hundres of years later. I hope they don't screw it up though. Maybe some of the crewmates of the "longer living races" make a cameo/return.
I think we rather keep our own form. "No, you can't." You know what Star Child? That's why I'm going to select Destroy. You have proven that the cycle will invariably continue if Synthesis and Control are chosen.
mjtechnoviking44 That's just for bridging the gap with Shepherd, so to speak. The Catalyst can assume many voices, just as forms. You hear a much more sinister voice if you use the "refuse" option...
It's not as pronounced, but the Catalyst actually has a mix of a child's and MaleShep and FemShep's voice talking all at the same time. It's eerie, but makes sense as it tries to communicate with him on a level he comprehends.
Meh, I'd pick the Destroy option. No more reapers, no more problem for everyone else. We set out on a mission, it must be seen to the bitter end. The needs of the many, outway the needs of the few. Save everyone by ending yourself.
+VaciliNikoMavich But the needs of the many dictate that the reapers are right. better to kill off SOME organic life than let ALL of organic life perish with the creation of an aggressive synthetic race
Phabio Host So you'd create yet another aggressive race, that would likely wage war on a non synthetic race? It would just keep repeating. The goal is to NOT let it repeat by forcing the wheel to stop spinning. The point is to stop history from repeating itself by getting rid of the repeat button or events that force this repeat.
VaciliNikoMavich The only way that cycle would end is with synthesis or extinction. And since synthesis wasn't possible before the catalyst the only option was to prevent total extinction with these cycles. it was to prevent organic extinction until a suitable alternative became available.
@@adamloga3788 No. I actually think this ending is one of the best in video game history. The Reapers were never an army to be overcome, but an idea to be altered.
@@pl0xie494 And? Getting to the ending was the point of getting all those fighting forces together. The reason you included them all was so that you'd have a snowball's chance of winning. Reapers had an infinite technological head start and you were never going to beat them in combat.
@MANJYOMETHUNDER111 The entire series is about choice... it's only fitting that the ending should account for your choices throughout the series. The rgb laser just shits on that. Nothing you did really mattered cuz you can just pick ze color and boom reapers no longer a problem. If you played the games as worst as you can and then the best you can the ending would basically stay the same. It can 100% be better than "fuck your choices, pick a color."
The Catalyst's mandate is to preserve life. It wasn't told what form. The biomass of those civilisations lives on in the Reapers. It is fulfilling its mandate perfectly without violation.
It also only harvests sufficiently developed species which considering we aren't at that level yet in real life and how many thousands of species exist on this planet suggests it's a very very small amount. Where as it would be logical for sufficiently advanced ai who seek self preservation to destroy all other life forms.
Everyone debating this is missing the whole point. The crucible isn't a fucking magic wand. Control options seems feasible, destroy seems feasible, but synthesis is fucking stupid and exemplifies how atrocious the ending is. You go ahead and explain to me how the crucible makes synthesis happen. And I'm not talking about the color of the beam, either. How does a giant heap of metal merge synthetics and organics across the galaxy? How does it physically do that? How does it decide what gets merged with what? The very concept is fucking ridiculous. I threw myself into the beam, broke my CD, sold my console, and never looked back. No regrets.
+Lance Blackwater It is funny how the starbrat "explains" that the crucible cannot discriminate if you chose the red ending. But if you chose green, then they have the perfect solution and can micro manage every organic to a molecular level, lmao! I think the person who wrote this conclusion should hang himself. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever.
If you think about it, the “child” aka harbinger in disguise just needed a choice to be made. So tell “him” what to do and then walking away should have sufficed. “Kill all the Reapers” that’s the choice. *Child looks at Shepard and Motions toward the Gleaming Red Energy Console* “Yeah... I just told you what to do, do it” *Child turns into Harbinger* “Shepard... I am assuming direct control immediate intervention is required...” *Harbinger’s actual ship arrives, flys low and hits the power box with his red beam weapon and then his thrusters immediately stop working, slamming him into the top of the citadel* *Shepard limp-runs and jumps into space, the Normandy scoops him up, he kisses Liara and they all head to the Winchester for a pint to wait for this all to blow over...” Haha
Coming in from a perspective who doesn’t know what happens next, I feel like the only morally correct option presented here is to take control of the Reapers and just like... not use them ever again. Option 1 is genocide against stuff like Evi and Legion, and option 3 is the stagnation of the universe. With option 2 you could end the war, allow your friends to take any data they want from the Reapers, then yeet all the Reapers into a black hole or something. Everyone wins, data is preserved, and free will continue Edit: now knowing what happens with all three endings, I stand by my decision
Lol nah the Reapers think you will have control just like they tricked Illusive Man. Maybe you do make your own rules…but what’s to say they won’t eventually turn your mindset into one of theirs and thus…become the real first *Reaper* ?
Yeah like TheNocturnal said. Power corrupts. And absolute power (which is control of the reapers) corrupts absolutely. And I agree that synthesis will result in the stagnation of the universe. Especially with the reapers around. Yes all synthetics die in the destroy ending, including your adopted daughter EDI. And yes I the catalyst is right in thinking chaos will come back. Yet if the other options are worse then death the death is sometimes the best bad option.
@@tidan4575 the "synthesis leads to stagnation" idea is flawed because two little detail: The synthetics are still individuals who can freely act how they see fit, which also icludes creation. There's always a new problem that requires an engineered solution. Stagnation leads to stagnation, for example to claim you're at the end of the road, what traditionalists or conservatives claim to be. "No change because we're there already". Funnily they claim "making everyone gay" will kill individuality, but a) no one wants to make everyone gay, but just accept that "gay" - as in LGBTQ - exists, is normal and part of individuals and society, always has been in that reguard with varying degrees of acceptance, and b) being able to live your life, do what you see fit doing without activly harming others, is the highest point of individuality we can achieve. So seeing stuff as being made "uniform" could just be a perspective or fear, even framing something as bad which inherently isn't. Let's take another fun example for that. Racism. Being against it as a society is making the society "uniform". But it doesn't mean that the society stagnates or deteriorates. It opens up possabilities for many people while taking irrational fear and hatred away from others, freeing them to pursue more rewarding paths in their lifes.
@@Dreagostini My last comment was flawed and I agree that synthesis itself doesn't lead to stagnation. But synthesis while the reapers are still around will. Since they being the strongest minds will rule the galaxy and everyone in it will be a big problem since their track record has been indiscriminate destruction of civilization by their own hands for the sake of their version of "preservation of all life" for the past millennia. Perhaps in the next conflict when the next racists threaten to exterminate the next species of AI just for being what they are will the cycle maybe ready to accept AI as they are and evolve to synthesis willingly.
@@tidan4575 the point of the - stupid - synthesis ending is that every machine and living thing are synthesised into being made from the same stuff. So there is no difference between AI or "meat bags" anymore. Not that that hinders humans to hate each other based on minor differences, but let's just go with it that the synthesis is the cake good ending no one asked for. For my head canon, and I think we agree here, the Shepard cycle is the one which, depending on choices, actualy forged synthesis through actions, admittance of errors and failures and try to mend the wounds so they may heal in time. WHich means the solution and true ending of ME3 is all the decicions we made on the way for the good of the galaxy. For me and my Shepard that meant understanding, compassion and an open mind. WHich leads to conclusions, like: The Rachni deserved another chance, especialy after it turned out they were used as war machines, even as a citadel species if they choose to do so. Ironically the fate of the Krogans isn't far off that. I won't even start to discuss what was when necessary for which reasons. The current situation is that the genophage is wrong and nearly destroyed a people. The Geth acted in self defense and the Quarians actualy had a civil war most people don't know about because the high ups either lost the knowledge or played victim, which lead to revanchism. The reaper are just the catalyst to force everyone to work together no matter the history - except the arrogant Salarian Balatras. But working together was the key to success from the very beginning, reaper or not.
Synthesis cannot be forced. Now, go ahead and force it on every living thing in the galaxy. Destroy every synthetic. But not just us for some reason, even if Control doesn't take over Geth or EDI. Fuck, the ending is just one big mess.
+William Rob And how is that "proven" by Shep, a single organic, reaching the Catalyst? The only reason he did was because some Protheans threw the fight, waiting it out instead, something its implied the Reapers did not anticipate. It proves absolutely nothing. The Reapers very existence forces synthesis, and the Catalysts "logic" is retarded, unless it is lying. In which case, every ending is a bad one. (Which they are regardless.) There was no way to "expand" or "clarify" the ending. It needed changing, and EC+Lev was not enough. A still nonsensical end and a minute of simple slideshows and voiceovers is no way to end a 100 hour and otherwise excelent saga. It was an extremely impersonal end to an exeptionally personal story.
The child even said that it's the representation of the collective intelligence of the Reapers. How could any not choose destroy? The final battle is a battle of willpower and whether or not you are going to finish what you started out to do.
God, the writing quality just drops through the rock at this point. I should have known when they introduced the idea of the Crucible from bum-fuck nowhere and the announcement of Kai Leng as "the Shepard equivalent for Cerberus" so close to the end-game that I was going to be taken for a ride.
It wasn't created out of nowhere, the plans for a superweapon against the repears was on llos, but heavily corrupted, thebprotheans that survived worked on such a project. This was uploaded to their fractured cloud network, which led to Liara getting a better copy on mars. 😑
100%. It's as if they sat down to start writing ME3 and they were like "uh, ok so how the hell are they actually supposed to be able to stop the Reapers? I know, superweapon!" Because they weren't creative enough or intelligent enough to weave something else.
Personally, I like Control the best, Shepard proves that he is worthy to take the place of the Catalyst, and then turns the Reapers into the guardians of the races instead of their destroyers. That, and the extended ending shows the mass relays being reconstructed, so yeah.
What i loved most was they seen all the videos of people shooting the Intelligence and made it in the extended cut so that if you try that you basically get a game over.
Worst ending in video game history. How in the hell is the destruction of all organic life the only solution to the problem of preserving organic life. Leviathan stated that they instructed the catalyst to preserve organic life so the catalyst's conclusion is to put all organic life in a meat grinder? How about every so often cleansing the galaxy of synthetics? You know the guys initiating the conflict in the first place by rebelling. Whoever wrote this is a crackhead. And why would the catalyst allow you to intervene that doesn't make sense. Shepard intervening will allow for the further creation of synthetics and in-turn perpetuate the conflict. If Shepard takes control of the reapers hes obviously going to neutralize them and save the organics still living thus enabling the organics to continue to evolve and create more synthetics that will end up killing them (according to this absurd logic). So how is this a viable solution to the problem. Same goes for destroy and synthesis. After any of these changes Shepard makes, organics could theoretically continue to evolve and create more synthetics that would end up killing the organics or in the synthesis ending, the hybrids. WTF. This goes against the catalyst's stated objective.
Actually the Catalist has a point, the reapers only destroy advanced civilizations and the synthetics. If they didn't the weaker races would be dominated like the Prothean empire did to the lesser races. Honestly if you think about it, it makes total sense.
Brandon Genta Yeah, I guess. But then they kind of stagnant the growth of the species anyways. They deliberately set up the relays in the hope that the species of the universe would evolve the way they wanted, making them just right for the reaping. How do they know how the species would change without them?
Rosebunse The relays Sped the process up. It wasn't controlling them in terms of choosing. It simply was set up so lesser lifeforms could expand and move forward. if they didnt have relays most species would use up all their resources and then Die because they had no way of traveling to get more. Those relays took many, many cycles to create. It took the work of the reapers over many cycles to complete them. without reaper intervention the cycles would have just died out on their own and never had the chance to reach the point of ever making them on their own.
This was a golden opportunity to give the player a 4th option to end the game with the knowledge you get from the Leviathan. The A.I. didn't do it's job properly, because it misunderstood the task it was given. The Reapers weren't the solution and the assumptions of the A.I. are false. You can easily destroy the logic behind the cycles and the reapers with numerous infos you get in the game, but they still had to fuck it all up. It could've been so perfect. All you needed were some clever dialogue options to convince the A.I., that it came up with the wrong solution and that could make it stop the reapers, happy ending. Much more believable and much more satisfying. All the miserable people, who liked the other three bad endings could still choose those.
So would it be possible for EDI to be restored? After all, it was created by Cerberus and now all its data is in the possession of the Alliance, would it then be possible to recreate it, since they can restore the technology?
Never noticed before that you can hear Shepard's voice within The Child's voice. I wonder if the same effect is done with Fem-Shep, unless she IS in there but quieter then Man-Shep. Also the ultimate goal of organics & synthetics becoming one reminds me of Beast Machines as that was a running theme, primarily in the 2nd season once Primal had his epiphany.
So possible Genocide (Of the geth), Genocide (Of everything everywhere and making it into something new) or Suicide (Which could be a trap). The choices are still so far beyond "Unethical" it give me a headache. I would probably make the decision to wipe out the Reapers and the possible the geth because that is the least Evil plan. Most of my friends live to see another day and I might too. Synthesis is the worst in my mind. No one person should ever make a decision for TRILLIONS of people.
***** Synthesis is indeed the worst. I have gone though various other people's theories on the philosophies behind it. Unity and free will are the two major themes in these games. Neither of the Endings fulfill both, but Synthesis ignores it completely. It does not present unity, as unity is not the same as "Oh, we all have the same f*cking DNA.". Unity is feeling of being equal. All races are equal to one another. Before the Reaper invasion, the Asari were dominant on pretty much every term. The Krogan, Vorcha, Batarians, Geth and Quarians had a massive social disadvantage throghout the entire galaxy. Shepard created unity throughout the game. But if you choose synthesis, you've ruined everything you have been doing in the Galaxy for the past 6 months. Control has unity, but takes away free will. Destroy has free will, but takes away unity. The unity provided by Control is through peaceful Reaper presence, but they are controlled (and influence all other Synthetics), thus taking away free will. Organics are united, but only among themselves. Organics are still not united with Synthetics. Destroy provides free will, beign released from Reaper opression and harvest. But the (unaffected) unity will not last, as Synthetics will rise again. Without Reaper technology, Synthetics cannot be prevented from wiping organic life. The Reapers hold the key to the Solution (prevent synthetics from wiping out organic life). They have the knowledge, but can't use it (controlled by Starchild). The only way to release the knowledge into the Galaxy is through Control, but then you take away free will. By destroying the Reapers, you destroy all knowledge they have harvested. The solution is then forever lost. And just like eons ago, during Leviathan's Era, Synthetics will rebel against their creators.
Read *Children of Dune* and *God Emperor of Dune*. Paul Mu'adib's son, Leto II makes a decision with consequences of that magnitude because it was the only way to bring about an end of galactic corruption, greed, and genocide. It cost him everything, too, he became a Sandworm/Human hybrid, outlived his twin sister, grandmother, and everyone else he knew, as he ruled for over 3500 years. He was considered a Tyrant and Dictator by everyone, even though he did it for the good of everyone. It's a real heady read.
STR33TSofJUST1C3 What's "free will" anyway? None of us have it, we all belong to a certain society with certain societal norms. Is a seemingly free choice picked from controlled options "free will"? Not really. We have human systems in place that pretty much strip us of "free will" by not allowing certain things and allowing others; true "free will" would be so chaotic we wouldn't be able to form societies or even small groups to live in, so we're forced to surrender it at least in part in order to survive / thrive. Regardless, I always saw Synthesis as almost preferential - you remove most, if not all of the downsides to being organic, despite forcefully evolving everyone into some "next level" synthetic forms... but that's pretty much what we want in this reality anyway. Removing disease, illness, ageing? Having complete control over your physical form? What's not to like? It's not like there was free will in the first place so "losing it" becomes a non-issue.
Roy Batty Roy Batty sums up my thoughts on Synthesis. I love the username, by the way. For all the reasons he listed, the Synthesis option seems to have the most benefits for all parties involved. The Geth survive, EDI survives, and heck even the Reapers are given a chance to make something new of themselves by applying that vast wealth of knowledge of trillions of individuals from countless previous species for creating, rather than destroying. With the Destroy option, the Geth and AI such as EDI, are destroyed and Admiral Hacket's end speech says the organics can simply "rebuild it all, and better." Well, the problem with that is you can't rebuild the "soul/ego." Legion's soul isn't something you can just rebuild or copy and paste, and the same goes for EDI. In choosing Destroy, it sends a message to future synthetics that they are expendable. They are only valued as tool, and if need be, they can be tossed aside should the sacrifice be necessary. *Legion and EDI would NOT CONDONE such an act*.
Fodxp hatesgoogle As you said, EDI and Legion are both fully self-aware, which basically means they are lifeforms. Sure, they're made of metals / synthetic materials, but that only means their physical presence is superior to a fleshy meatsack that can fall ill, grow old, take time to self-repair. It's like in Iain M. Banks' Culture series where humans created AI, which has become a sort of benevolent "master" over humanity, essentially treating them as pets, like we do with domesticated animals. Now, the AIs in question (Culture Minds) can think above and beyond the human capacity, to the point where their circuits exist in a sort of hyperspace fold (rather than take up space in realspace), they control entire world-ships with barely any of their full processing power, and they pass the time by playing around with simulated 12-dimensional realities. Their conversations take place in under a second, almost instantaneously. But this raises the question of whether they still "count" as living; after all, they might have free will and do everything impossibly fast compared to the relatively basic humans (who, in that universe are actually vastly superior and have all manner of modifications and "upgrades") but they're still made of metal, not meat and bone. My main point is what makes synthetic life any less "living" than an organic, when it's essentially superior in every way? The only real difference between synthetic and organic life is that synthetics tend to know their creators... but whether that's a good or bad thing varies by story / universe; how fine is the line between genocidal machine or benevolent shepherd? Would *"I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream"*'s supercomputer "AM" or Skynet ever have the capacity to become a Culture Mind? Would all humans become tyrants?
BioWare can try to add as much context and clarification to the ending as they like. Doesn't change the fact that it's broken. The idea that organics and synthetics are too fundamentally different to truly co-exist without the intervention of space magic just kinda spits in the face of the trilogies theme of unity and overcoming the adversity brought about by our differences. I mean, there's a REASON Shepard's crew is so diverse; it shows that the differences between the denizens of the galaxy, Geth and AI's included, aren't so great that they can't be overcome by the need to work together. I mean, what was the point of the Geth/Quarian and Joker/EDI sublot(s) if not to show that organics and synthetics CAN co-exist? So either the Catalyst is right and the ending contradicts the previous 2.9 games, or the Catalyst is wrong and the entire climax of the game is prompted by a false thesis. Either way it's fundamentally dysfunctional as a conclusion to the story that came before.
You are of the opinion that once peace is declared, that its the final event. The Quarians may become frightened by a now fully sentient Geth race, prompting another war. The Catalyst's mandate is to preserve organic life in the galaxy. Over countless cycles and millions of years, it clearly has seen synthetics rise up against organics and threaten their existence. However Shepard, as an anomaly, has shown evidence that it possibly can happen. Which is why the Catalyst gives you, the anomaly, the choice. It recognises that it's method no longer works. Based on your final binary statement, if the Catalyst is right then it is saying that your actions to unite synthetics and organics is temporary, which it may well be. If the Catalyst is wrong and your unity across lifeforms is true, you have succeeded in convincing the AI that your cycle is unique. How is the climax based on a false thesis by the second option?
@@AstroChoob Not really, I don't think things are set to be golden between Quarians and the Geth forever. But according to the thesis of this ending it's 100% futile to even TRY. That's completely antithetical to what Mass Effect had been about up to that point.
@@Xelpherpolis It is only futile to try if you believe its thought processes. It is under the impression that it cannot be done. By you uniting the galaxy, organic and synthetic alike, you have proven that its method no longer works. I do see your argument, but that is if you believe what it says. If someone told you that you would amount to nothing in a capitalist environment, would you not still try? It has its own viewpoint, doesn't represent all. I think the thing to take away from this is that the events only occur because of Shepard. An anomaly in the cycle that separates it from other cycles. Peace would not be achieved without him, and most likely inevitably fall apart in his absence. However you choosing the Synthesis ending allows organics and synthetics to achieve a higher form of life, together. This option proves your point of coexistence.
The biggest irony is that Catalyst says that his creators "failed to understand that they were part of the problem themselves. The flaws of their organic reasoning could not perceive this" And yet here he is, being part of the problem he's meant to solve. The flaws in his synthetic reasoning unable to perceive this.
I'm pretty sure the catalyst doesn't perceive himself as part of the problem, he just knows that he lost to shepard and has accepted the cycle is ending
I wish there was a fifth option where you could say screw you kid and actually fight off the reapers and it was an uphill battle but you could actually win it. It would be so much more satisfying than the ending But you would have to have nearly all the war assets maxed out
@@Whatisthisstupidfinghandle yeah it just sick because you can be maxed out in all reinforcements and you will still lose to the reapers. Even if there was one ending where you could shoot him and he says so be it back to you but you end up winning and killing the reapers I would’ve been happy with that
The child looks outside at Reapers getting their collective asses handed to them and is like "that's...impossible! How did you unite the entire galaxy...they've never worked together before like this!?!?!. Sheperd smiles and says "I gave them all a common enemy; YOU.". Cut to the massive combined fleet wiping out the Reapers with the last few trying to flee, getting instead slammed with thanix cannon fire.
Okay I only played through ME3 once when it came out and then the Destroy ending seemed like the best idea (but I went with control since I didn't even know I could choose :P). But then when the Extended Cut DLC came out and I watched the videos of the new endings the synthesis ending seemed the best to me.
Destruction is the best. Why? Because you can recreate EDI and Geths. If you can build something and destroy it, you can rebuild it easly. It's how human civilization works from ages... :)
And one could easily argue that "just building more machines" in the way organic life always has doesn't change anything and only shows why this type of thing happens in the first place. Just because it's how things have always been, doesn't mean that change should never be attempted. That's really how life works, adapting to what happens. To me, an extinction scenario suggests that "how civilization works from the ages" isn't necessarily the best way to go about it anymore. If a billion years of death and lost culture in the name of this conflict isn't enough to attempt change, then I'd hate to see how bad things need to get before it IS worth attempting it. Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Also Destruction is best because with the Reapers dead, the Catalyst has no purpose, no way to continue searching for a solution for the Leviathans, all life will be free to do their own thing after countless centuries of being manipulated by the Reapers.
Then let me ask you a question, to which my answer is the same as Tali's. "Does this unit have a soul?" The point where any artificial intelligence becomes truly self aware, and practically reaches sentience... that's not something you can do just by rebuilding it. Also, the fact that humanity works that way doesn't mean that the way itself works.
Termiborger I'll answer your question the same way my Shepard said, siding with Adams over Chakwas. "Genes don't make us alive, it's our awareness, curiosity and capacity to evolve." All organics need to open their minds to different forms of life. Just because something that expresses awareness and curiosity but is not made of flesh and blood does not mean they are not alive. Once all organics, not just quarians accept that not all living creatures are made of flesh and give up their desire to control or destroy sentient machines, then conflict between them won't be inevitable anymore.
The geth as a people could return, but the geth that died could never be recreated in that exact same way. Neither could EDI. A bluebox defines an AI's personality. A new EDI trying to be the old EDI is like when Morinth tried to be Samara. It's similar but not exactly the same. Same with Okeer's argument about Grunt. He must survive because he can not be duplicated. Joker would have a new copilot, sure, but it wouldnt be EDI
The Reapers are not the problem, what led to their creation is. The actual synthetics are not the issue, it's why we create them in the first place that is in question here. Most people can't see that. Most seem unable to see beyond the Reapers and what they are doing to see things for what they really are. When the writers decided to take the story to being about something that big, something that questions a fundamental aspect about how we advance and even evolve, based on the reaction from most "fans", it became clear that people would rather have had typical "bad guys" to shoot to death over something that asks a big and important question. Over something morally questionable in which finding the "right" solution is in no way easy. I'm not saying it was executed in the best of ways, because the EC alone says that it wasn't, but it was never the horrible illogical mess that many claimed. The main premise when it comes to the how and why of the Reapers is not the issue. It's the final "battle" and that certain choices got reduced to being represented as a war asset number instead of us being able to see it reflected in the story with consequences that is the problem. I guarantee that if the final battle reflected our choices and who was recruited and the EC epilogues were present originally, the backlash would have been MUCH less, if there would have even been enough to call it "backlash" at all.
Sorry but I disagree. The fans of this wanted something that showed all their contributions to their character, and a final choice that included aspects from all they did in all the previous games. The Reapers were supposed to be something alien, a force so large and alien that their purpose should have required looking at all the installments to truly understand. Instead we got 'robots vs. humans' on a galactic scale which really cheapens the experience. This story has been done in 'Terminator' and it was done again on a philosophical scale in 'The Matrix'. Upgrading the conflict to Space Opera didn't add much. Compare it to the original premise of dark matter slowly unraveling the galaxy and the Reapers harvests were not so much an attempt to save organics, as organics were the problem. The need for and use of eezo unraveling the galaxy all leading to a dilemma that held the fate of more than the galaxy, but potentially the entire universe in your hands. That was the big end game fans wanted. What was given fell short. Not because fans couldn't appreciate the syntetic v. organic problem, but because that problem rang hollow in comparison to everything else.
This assumes that everything we did would somehow affect the Reapers. I agree that choices should have mattered more, but they do not all have to somehow tie in to how we deal with the Reapers. In fact, it makes no sense to assume that our choices would. How would most of what we did affect the Reapers outside of just how our battle with them plays out? How would whether or not we had Ash or Kaiden, cured the Genophage, reunited Thane with his son or not, saved or destroyed the Collector base, or rescued the crew in time affect the Reapers? Those things would mean nothing to the Reapers, who have controlled the flow of life in the galaxy for a billion years. Like I said, the ending choice is not the problem, the final "battle" to get to that end is. It is very underwhelming and could have been made to represent our choices, even with the possibility of failing just like the suicide mission of ME2. As for the rest, I personally like the question of what happens when organic life creates synthetic life to be far more interesting than the supposed leaked dark energy plot.That is basically just a typical doomsday scenario. I would much rather have something that makes me question a fundamental aspect of life. To each his own I guess. I just wish the final combat portion of the game was a large scale battle in which I was fighting alongside Rachni and Geth and that had people potentially dying because of choices I made.
edgecrusherhalo Well to argue the first point, I wanted events from other games to play more into the endgame scenario. Take a look at what Bioware did in Dragon Age. For their endgame, based on your actions, you could call on different armies to fight for you as you fought your way through the city. I was hoping for something like that in ME3. As you fought across Earth, maybe you could have called support from different armies. Cure the genophage? You could get Krogan army to fight some larger army for you. Converted the Geth to your side in ME2? Or even choosing to save Kaidan in ME1 would mean more biotic support as opposed to Ashley who would have gotten you marine support. It would certainly be a step up from just getting a mention in a paragraph with some number attached to the 'war assets'. And the last point, I can see why you may like the revised 'organic v. synthetic' but you still have to agree that it wasn't really the best choice seeing as how they were dropping hints for the whole 'dark matter' plot in ME2. By changing it in ME3, you have this whole potential story now clinging to the universe uselessly.
I don't think the dark energy plot would have been exclusively bad, just not nearly as interesting. It's too typical doomsday scenario for me. I like the philosophical questions that come up when we start talking about technological advancement and what happens when AI is created. Also, if dark energy is the problem, then why would the Reapers leave the relays for us to find and use since they rely on using it? That completely goes against the idea that its use is destroying the universe. Agreed though. The final battle sucks and I too wish it were set up in a way in which we used allies and characters for specific tasks in said battle and the potential for them to die. After the EC and Leviathan DLCs, that is the one thing that is still VERY noticeably missing as far as I'm concerned.
The first part in your first intervention describes with a troubling precision how I feel and why I love these games. They're so much more than what most people rant about. I'm infuriated that they miss the point. Should the next game not impress me, not make me cry or break my heart, as long as it leaves me hanging stupid with questions about myself and my own kind, just like Sovereign did, I will not complain.
I think Leviathan would have been much more interesting if Leviathan actually *was* a rogue reaper. It realized that the Catalyst's reason for the harvest was complete bullshit based on flawed logic, rebelled, and was forced to kill one of its own kind to escape. But it couldn't halt the cycle on its own, and hid until organics were strong enough to truly oppose the reapers.
@@yabgu3 How isn't it? "Yo we heard you don't like being killed by synthetics, so we built some synthetics to kill you, so you won't be killed by synthetics."
You know, i'm probably going to get murdered for this but i actually do not mind the mass effect ending , yea i was a bit pissed at first and i felt robbed of my ultimate fuck you to the reapers, but when i look back on it as a whole, on all the hours, the laugher the tears ( yes i cried ) , the swearing at insane difficulty , the hours of codex reading , the utter rage when the bloody mako decided to bunny hop its ass into lava....... the whole experience of mass effect from start to finish i honestly think i would have been more annoyed with a pat on the back and a well done everything is fine now congratulations you can all go home. I mean i get why some people wanted that but think about mass effect as a whole , it wasn't a normal game we wouldn't of cared so much if it was. It stepped outside the box in so many ways it made us make choices we didn't want to make , it made us laugh and it made us rage , and maybe sometimes scum save ( cough cough ). But imagine you got to the end of the game and there is a big ( I WIN WE ALL GO HOME NOW ) button.... it would suck, it would feel empty and hollow yea we stopped the reapers and the galaxy can rebuild but that is so cliche that's just not mass effect. Throughout the series you made some bloody hard calls who lives, who dies , do you help him or leave him to his fate , save the geth or not , you know the decisions we made sure to save 20 times before hand just in case we needed a save point cause we didn't like the asshole we saved or you realised you can actually get into that room you walked past earlier , i personally like that at the end of everything even after you have assembled everything , everyone , every last scrap of metal, every last sentient being and every god damn ship no matter how small just so you can toss some extra pew pew down range at the reapers that at the end when all is said and done and billions have died, you have tried everything in game and out of game you have devoted literally months of your life to the series that there is still NO easy choice , no clear cut decision for you to chose ... for me that is what made mass effect great , that choice and freedom to make the tough calls and suffer the consequences if you got it wrong . just my opinion :) .
Origin stories, convoluted motives, and creators **RUIN** great villains like the Reapers. Mass Effect originally modeled the Reapers a lot like the Borg from Star Trek, and that's why the intimidation factor was so high in ME1. It's a shame that they eventually were portrayed as dumb machines that are "just following orders". And giving them a creator/homeworld just ruins the atmosphere of mystery and unknown terror surrounding them.
It is OBVIOUS they had creators, they were synthetic, you think expanding on the known makes them less terrifying? That's idiotic to find out that they've harvested possibly millions of civilizations including their own creators adds to their terrifying for me, no need to be unknown boogeymen.
GZLAnnihilation Sure, but that doesn't mean it should be explicitly explained. The Borg have many possible origins, but Star Trek has (smartly) never covered that topic. Mystery and the unknowing add to the horror factor of a powerful villain.
TheGuyWithTheSniper No they really don't, that's entirely subjective, like I said the creator is implied, they scare me no more nor less when I found out they were created by a billion year old race to save organics.
Honestly though, it's a story with an end. if we didnt find out about the reapers, there wouldnt have been an end, star trek has no end, which is why they can do that with the borg.
That's actually the way of scientific thinking. How else do you think the Reapers came into existence? They were just born from the Big Bang? Bioware could well have just remain it as a mystery and never explain it, but that's against the spirit of a truly great RPG game, where the lore should explain the hows and whys of every important aspect of the world. I think you may be the kind of person that gets thrills from a mysterious and cool god, but Mass Effect is a science-fiction game. I would be pissed if the Reapers' origin are not properly explained in the final game. This is one of the reasons why I think Mass Effect is one of the best science-fictions ever made.
There's about half a minute to a minute's worth of dialogue starting around 2:30. Shepard even says "...The Leviathan." There's also more starting around 6:00.
The entire ending has the scent of "We have to wrap this up in this game, so scratch the original story". The Mass Effect story in the first two games, and even for most of the third, had the perfect buildup to reveal a new enemy, something greater than the Reapers.
@@whocaresguy true that. Personally I'd like the Leviathans to become the villains in nenmass effect game. Them bwliving they were first so they should once again control the galaxy. And now that the galaxy is weak after the reaper war....it's a perfect time to strike.
There is a reality so far beyond your own you can not even imagine it. We represent order, you represent chaos. The cycle must not be broken. That boy in Shepard's dreams... a bunch of other little things. Something out there, something genuinely worse than being assimilated into a new reaper. As it is, it makes it feel like the Reapers are just automatons continuing their code because they're robots and have no choice. The Geth have more soul, and more logic.
I have a challenge for everyone who feels they could write up or think of a better ending than Mass Effect 3's ending. The challenge is for you to make your own ending to the series, comment your endings under this comment post. Reason for challenge? I hate hearing people saying they can do something better than what they see on a screen like cgi animations and/or stories of a game/film. Especially from many people who have never wrote a story or done any 3d modelling or animation in their life and they seem to know how to make something better. I like to see people's stories and if possible, their own animation of the ending (not 2d, I want a full 3D ending) but if you cannot come up with a better story or ending than what Bioware has presented, then you can be quiet. I can make an ending for mass effect but whether it would be better depends on people's opinions. And my opinion is the ending for this is fine how it is. Unless there is actual facts stating it is bad, then it is just opinion based. Opinions are not facts but you may still try making a better ending if you want.
+PropSpairGaming Better ending. It is revealed that the reapers are really an advanced scouting party sent from Andromeda to catalog any races that advance to a specific level that way they never surpass the power of those that built the reapers. they are the vanguard of a race bent on controlling all life in the universe but before they can do that they have to make sure they can retain the throne so to speak. So when we beat the reapers we learn of their intended purpose and set off for the Andromeda galaxy to put an end to the creators of the reapers for all the suffering and death they have caused. This like all things is simply an opinion. (i loved the ME3 endings btw) This also opens up the idea of a supreme race that has tried to control everything from the beginning and learn everything. They use the reapers as their scouts and vanguard to protect their claim as supreme race in the galaxy. Obviously there are some plot holes like the leviathan dlc but dammit i beat the game before that dlc came out so this was a story i came up with a long time ago. Also i'm not saying this one is better. but it does leave more room for a sequel and better justifies the actions of the reapers. (imo)
Phabio Host Sounds more like a story set between ME3's ending and ME4 beginning, therefore this does not count as an ending for Mass Effect 3 if you are talking about Post-ME3 and Pre-ME4, doesn't count, good idea though
