There's a whole category of youtube channels like this, and it's pretty great to see people doing something good on here instead of just chasing the algorithm. (Not that I blame those who do - you gotta pay bills somehow.)
How can it be that Lord Hardthrasher, purveyor of some of YTs finest history documentaries, has only 64k subscribers? He deserves an audience 10 times the number.
As a veteran of HardThrasher videos and this series in particular, I knew the statistics on this were going to be depressing. However, the numbers at 15:52 dropped my jaw. Such casualty percentages are more closely associated with the worst of the Civil War in the US. They are made all the more heart rending by the fact that one of the major (if not the only) reason morale didn’t break was that those crews were convinced those bombing runs were accomplishing something…and they weren’t. Small wonder most documentaries and books skip over this part.
Put it this way, by the time the ramps on the landing craft dropped on 6th June 1944, the USAAF had taken 18,000 dead or caputred and another 6,000 wounded. That's 3x more dead than Iwo Jima, and they did it bascially from January-June 1944. The *however* there is the scale of the defeat they inflicted on the Luftwaffe in the process, basically rubbing it out.
Much of US culture is predicated on maintaining an ignorance of how things happened and how current things are actually working (or more specifically, not working). My country is essentially an Oligarchy...masquerading as a Republic. The Oligarchy controls media outlets and almost everyone's employment...and so works very hard to ensure that everyone is taught only specific narratives of History...conveniently those narratives that support the Oligarchy. I have no doubt that those young men in the USAF 1941-1943 died bravely...because they had no actual clue how pointless their efforts were and to what end they were being expended. I would go on to bet quite strongly that the state of the losses was suppressed...and only those who survived to do their own counting would actually understand the reality...and no one else would believe it. Having now researched how the air war in Europe ACTUALLY went and its actual results...I have very strong opinions on certain powerful people now...opinions which get me ostracized from the mainstream culture because my thoughts challenge the Oligarchy narrative. All this to say, that books like Catch-22 make a LOT more sense now than they did when I didn't understand that the commonly held narrative of WW2 is just a lie.
The casualty number numbers associated with the German U-Boat service come to mind. The Air numbers weren't quite that bad, but I had had no idea that hey were even on the same order. I'm a child of the 50s and have had a lot of propaganda to unlearn over the years.
@@dclark142002 The truth has always been out there and available. I had American produced documentary VHS tapes in the early 90s about the air war and it repeatedly discussed how badly the 8th got mauled, pointing out how they had to stand down several times "to lick their wounds." The Polesti Oil Field debacle in particular was mentioned along with the horrific casualty rates, with the narrator explaining, and I quote "no air force could sustain losses like these," and contending that the problem was "the b-24s and B-17s, while heavily armed, could not defend themselves." And how things only started to turn around once long range escorts started to become available. (Because who would have guessed that trying to shoot down a rapidly moving fighter doing 400+ MPH, while you yourself are doing 200+ MPH and moving at odd angles in a three dimensional space with heavy winds with naught but the Mark-1 Human eyeball is in fact, actually quite hard...) The true narrative about how bad things got and how much of a mythical religion "precision daylight bombing" was in the 1940s has always been out there. 😂It just requires five minutes on Google and a willingness to look at actual primary sources.
46:00 - Long range fighter escorts were initially such an anathema to the Bomber Mafia that they stymied and outright forbade development of drop tanks for fighter aircraft. One low-level USAAF staff officer took it upon himself to secretly contract with Lockheed to develop drop tanks for the P-38, completely without authorization. When he was inevitably found out, he said that the tanks that were being built were totally strictly for long range recon P-38's only, trust me bro. Eaker somehow bought this, and when long range escorts were finally approved, 8AF magically had tons of drop tanks on hand.
The Drop Tanks were originally developed for export aircraft. RAF were not impressed with the type as they got them without the Turbochargers and the French had been beaten before their order was ready.
As a currently serving member of US Army Aviation, listening to these videos is bittersweet. I wish I could say I’m surprised by the leadership but decades later, nothing has really changed.
@@HardThrasher I find it quite amusing that Doolittle made his start in the Pacific but then did his most important work in Europe while LeMay quite literally had the inverse starting in Europe and then doing his most important work in the Pacific. Nothing really important here, just an amusing observartion.
@@jefclarkThe withdrawal in contrast was by far the best retreat ever in history. Clearly the troops involved were committed to getting the fuck out and not leaving a man behind. It was so successful it took the Turks weeks to figure out what happened.
I love this series and channel. "Boldly bombing bugger all" should have been the whole series title. I took a 300s level history course on JUST the Strategic Air campaign of boldly bombing bugger all alone and loved it in 98. Even though it was, you know, 15 weeks of reading and lectures all about attempted civilian genocide by firebomb.
As I sit , hungover , bleary eyed. Barley clinging to my will to live. I discover Lord HardThrasher has blessed us so I must prolong my existence for at least another hour. Pray for me . I don't think I'm going to make it .
I love how many people were sent over by the pig but never forget that we wouldnt have come over if we didnt enjoy your content nor would we have stayed like we did. I genuinely love your content and humor. Keep up the good work and most importantly make the content you want to make yourself! Much love from the netherlands
100% agree. The whole thing is rather depressing but he makes it interesting and entertaining without ever forgetting (or letting us gloss over) the sacrifices made by the people involved. All the best from Germany.
My grandfather served a tour of 33 missions in bomber command and I just finished reading the Bomber Mafia by Malcolm Gladwell. Your videos are as entertaining as they are informative
I knew the lead pilot on the lead plane on the second raid on Schweinfurt. Out of the 16 planes of his squadron,, one turned back with engine trouble before reaching France, only four landed with damage at emergency fields, and only three (including my friend) landed back at their field of origin. Three of the damaged planes never flew again.
Indeed. It turns out that the whole "defensive fire will keep Jerry at bay thing" was sound in principal, but it turns out that accurately deflection shooting a rapidly moving target doing about 400 MPH while you yourself are doing 200 odd MPH with naught but the Mark 1 Human Eyeball is in fact "rather hard." Makes one wonder how the war mohht have been different if something as simple as "a larger drop tank" had been invented sooner....
@@andrewgause6971 The drop tanks were already available, but the Bomber mafia were sticking to their guns (pun intended) that the bombers could protect themselves, and fighter escort was not necessary.This was all changed after the Schweinfurt-Regensburg debacle.
@@DouglasJenkins I stand corrected. I suppose the question should then be "if their heads weren't so far up their arses...." Or perhaps there should have been a rule of "you may implement this strategy only if you agree to be in the lead bomber to show you are willing to put your money where you mouth is."
So what I'm getting from this series is that RAF Fighter Command was the only part of the air forces on both sides who had a plan for strategic level air war that actually worked, and everybody else spent their first 18 months beating their head into pulp against the brick wall of reality.
Unfortunately, fighter command still had its over-promoted idiots. Hence the insistence on tight formations where everyone is busy watching everyone else and not watching for the enemy, and other bloody stupid doctrines that took years to put right.
2 quality commentators, with just the right amount of flippancy that human endevours of any kind require. Gawd help us if we ever become efficient at the shite we get up to.
Excellent and informative presentation HardThrasher! So many facts I neither knew or appreciated. "Invading places it turns out is incredibly addictive....." I initially laughed, when realised how true this remains the case.
100%, amazing how many still buy it, even those that have studied the strategic bombing campaign in some detail. If not the specific claims then the general claims of precision
@@vaudevillian7had to do a college paper on Dresden for an English class when we were reading Slaughterhouse Nine. What baffles me is the Nordens propaganda in the first place. Pickle barrels aside, the technical specs for the sight said that it could get a bomb to within "one hundred yards of the target" from 20,000 feet under ideal conditions. That's an area the size of the Louisiana superdome. And ideal conditions means: clear skies. No headwinds, tailwind, crosswind (or, God help you, multiple types at multiple speeds at different altitudes because the atmosphere is basically just a less-dense version of the ocean), no AAA or flak trying to fill you full of so many holes you could be marketed as a new kind of cheese, and *absolutely* no BF-109s or FW-190s buzzing around you like angry hornets, trying to shoot you down. I.E. "never going to actually happen in wartime conditions." I'm not a military officer or an engineer, and I was able to realize that by taking three minute to stop and think on matter. Why no one important had the same epiphany is frankly, more than a little disturbing.
Your videos do a really good job of highlighting why the bombing campaign simultaneously kept Nazi High Command up at night while being shockingly difficult to prove effective in the numbers. The allied economies were so heavily shifted to a war footing that the bombing campaigns that the RAF(and eventually USAAF) were doing would immediately show up as missing supplies and formations. Against the German economy there's so much slack and slave labor that basically anything short of utter devastation would be absorbed by fixing other inefficiencies. This is why every major accounting of the campaigns has to talk about opportunity cost or prevention of economic expansion.
Yes, the argument is NOT whether the bombing campaigns hastened Germany's end - despite all the blunders and all the self-serving overestimation of their effect they did. The question is always whether there was an alternate use of Allied resources that would have hastened it more.
I almost feel sorry for poor Jenkins, all that brain-meltingly difficult work composing poetry in Welsh up in flames but then remember that I'm a survivors club veteran and quite frankly I'm already suffering with the auditory equivalent of the thousand yard stare without throwing badly recited welsh poetry into the mix and breath a sigh of relief. I knew before this series that the whole allied bombing campaign in Europe during WW2 was a hard slog for those involved but I hadn't realised what a depressing mess of stupidity, ego and tactical dogma it all was. As an aside my Grandfather served in the RAF during the war, he had wanted to fly as a gunner but his eyesight precluded him from becoming aircrew and, after watching this series thus far, this probably saved his life as a result. Your hard work chronicling this battle of ego and dogma over good tactical sense at a most terrible cost is both brilliant and masochistic. I look forward to the next installment, until then KBO.
Sorry but I see a content with a bunch of likes, is just like to ask you all to go back and give the video a like of you forgot. This is my favorite channel and I want to see him putting out more content and this will help him. ALLOT OF PEOPLE WATCHED AND LOVED BUT DIDN'T TOUCH THE LIKE BUTTON!
The second time round, really spot on.😅 My dad flew in ww2,his comments were very colorful and my mother used to sit on him regardless of situ.I was a nam chopper pilot,who continued my history degree studies.(time permitting and my mother sat on both of us at once and instructed us indecorum.I finally gave up,but dad didn't. Your a smashing trip ,down the street.
My great grandfather lied about his age (14 yrs old),joined up in 1914 & survived till 1918.He then went to Berlin & married my great nan.She came from a rich family,had a parade through Berlin. They lost all their money in stock market crash.They came back to England & he became a bus driver.What a dude.If he was killed, none of my family would exist.
A minor correction dear sir. The Short Stirling was not retired in 1943, rather it was taken off bomber duties and used for other purposes such as supplying materials to the various resistance movements around Europe. The Stirlings later took part in Operation Market Garden in 1944, they towed the gliders to Arnheim and later helped drop supplies to the troops. My Grandfather piloted one of those god awful machines and somehow came out the other side with only a single bullet hole through the fuselage of his aircraft for his troubles.
You're right, although actually they wanted to stop using it for anything PDQ. Harris is supposed to have threatened to fly one himself to prove how dangerous they were as a bomber.
@@HardThrasheryes, limiting the wingspan of the aircraft just so it could fit into the hangers the RAF had already built was maybe not the smartest design choice.
@@CharlieNoodles However, this wasn't the reason for the wingspan, although there are numerous claims it was. Specification B12/36 required the wingspan limit in order to keep the weight down, and so would enable the range requirements to be met. It also meant by keeping the weight down it wouldn't require new long runways.
It would, but then we'd lose the wonderful video editing and occasional (but relevant) skits. Maybe for more specific topics you just don't have the room for in some videos?
32:32 my great grandfather was one of the pilots during operatin tidal wave his liberator was shot down. He managed to jump out in time and survived out of all his crew if I remember 7 died he spent most of the rest of the war in a POW camp. My great uncle collected most of the info for his obituary by finding documents and going to the places he served and bombed.
Such a tragic story - incredibly brave young men being sacrificed because of the unwillingness of their leaders to accept reality. They really did deserve better.
As a student at Cambridge I discovered the American cemetery just a 15 minute bus ride. It's so sad! Many were just kids! Several crosses had more than one name. A few had three names! Why? Because their bodies were so mutilated! Think of that! Also, it appeared to me everyone resting there was from The 8th. Then there is a large wall loaded with names; 10,000 plus. Why the wall? Because their bodies were never found. Like I stated, so sad!
Another cracking instalment ! Greatly anticipated, it did not disappoint. Once again you have managed to tell a story that feels well researched, has just the right amount of sarcasm, and brilliantly captures the human element that is greatly appreciated by anyone who has had to work with a large comp/ local government, it’s its varying levels of hierarchy and incompetence! Thank you Hard Thrasher you keep managing to mix your metaphors and spin proverbial gold out of a sow’s ear ! Can’t wait for the next instalment 👌
I'm listening to this, and all I can hear this this line that I read somewhere, something along the lines of- "It was a glorious failure, but because when people realized how much of a failure it was, it was years later. So, they tried to make it seem like something glorious, because otherwise it would have been a depressing waste of life, material, and time." (That, and with the exception of Fighter Command, there might not have been a single competent air force in World War II...)
I think 'no competent air force outside Fighter Command' is a little harsh. Especially as Fighter Command itself didn't perform nearly as well once Dowding was out and Leigh Mallory was in (the sweeps he ordered were a depressing waste of life and planes). So it's more that the likes of Dowding and Park were ahead of the curve with their attitudes to air war (which can also be seen in the sea change Park achieved when assigned to Malta), everyone else had to work it out 'on the job' and the Strategic Bombing force was slow on the uptake (and Leigh Mallory was a cretin). But iirc the likes of Tedder were improving Allied Tactical Air Power drastically, and by the time this video covers (mid 1943) Tedder's Mediterranean Air Command could definitely be considered a competent air force.
Thank you M'Lord. As ever, an exceptionally informative and entertaining piece. I look forward to the next episode and the publication of the book of the film
My 2024 had been quite honestly, dull and dreary this far. And lo and behold, a new offering from Lord Hardthrasher suddenly appears out of gloom! Thank you sir!
So unbelievably brave young men doing their absolute best to carry out orders issued more on the basis of tactical and strategic dogma than any actual military sense! The result was some mind blowing heroism and the young men continuing to perform their duty in the face of physical and psychological stress that was seemingly impossible to withstand but that heroism and those lives were mostly wasted by the higher ups for little to no gain! Seems similar to WW1 just with fewer trenches and less mud.
Two things: Back in 85 I travelled back up to my Norfolk home by train on a summer evening. Looking around the train I noticed that many fellow travellers were of a similar type: Mid 60s, American, and although clearly well fed, also muscular too. As the train pulled into Norwich Thorpe station a band there started blasting out Glenn Miller. There were people who honoured the ordeal those 8th Army Air force crews had undergone. That's the nice bit. The nasty part is the fiasco of the first Schweinfurt raid becomes even worse when you find out that the bearings that came through neutral Sweden and Switzerland had been made by SKF... In the USA.
Thank you for yet another greatly narrated, very pleasant on the ears, and well done presentation on this topic! I am very excited for whenever the next part arrives, and I hope that you are taking as much time with it as you need, because what you make, when you do, is an absolute pleasure to witness.
I went to the 8th Air Force museum in Savannah, GA when I was a kid. It's been a good 25+ years so I don't remember much of it besides "THE PLANES WERE SO COOL" and a good amount of somber memorials there for all those who didn't make it back and that the bombers had a bad time. This vid is making a lot of those ancient memories make a lot more sense. Also the Flying Fortress eraser I got from the gift shop was just my favorite thing.
On paper - not much in it - in reality, a *lot* - Lanc was flying about 10,000lbs 900 miles to Berlin and back in Nov 43. In Oct 43 the B-17 load to Schwienfurt was 3,500lbs roughly 600 miles
In theory, a B-17F, with external shackles, could carry more than a Lancaster. They were never used them, AFAIK, and the G deleted them. The bomb bay design of the B-17 was a limiting factor on the size of bombs that could be used and limited internal loads to 8000lb at most, less early on. The need to fly higher further limited payloads as it took a lot of fuel to get up there even though the turbos made it efficient to fly around 25,000ft. The Lancaster generally flew in the 15,000 to 20,000ft range and flak was more of a threat and having all those turrets on wasn't very effective. The Lancaster was a generation more recent
@@HardThrasher the logic ran it was 3500 in the right spot as opposed to 10000 somewhere on Berlin that might or might not be vital. That was the theory, anyway.
@@HardThrasher I was under the impression that the B17 was armoured in the right places, increasing the survival rate of its crew? But that this meant it couldn't carry as many boom sticks an the Lancaster, did to the weight of said armour. And all the extra guns, thirteen 50 cals + the ball turret vs the Lancaster's eight Brownings.
M'lud, may I say thanks for your efforts. I discovered your channel mostly by accident just before Xmas, and have enjoyed it very much over the past two weeks off work. Accurate history combined with humour is a win-win for me. Looking forward to what follows.
Another wonderfully thorough and frankly presented perspective on this chapter of the Bomber War. I'm grateful for this prior to the upcoming series, though when I first heard about it, I was hoping it'd be about Bomber Command over Germany. A B-29 episode would be really interesting, and I hope you cover some of the outsized bombs we made for our Lancasters - I live not that far from a lake that used to be a Grand Slam crater. Really enjoyed this, and the hungover cool wall on Boxing Day.
Enjoyed that, thank yop. One of the things occasionally overlooked through the fould ups is the sheer guts of those involved on both sides. A glass with you Sir.
Another great episode. Impatience as in life with any project caught them out. It is hard to sit back, get your aircraft ready in sufficient numbers and most of all those escort fighters and go for shock and awe. Crews sitting around waiting for months for enough resources for large raids the other side building up as well, it is not easy to say even with big losses if the war end date would have changed.
Jenkins is Welsh? That explains a lot. You have enough script for a book. What a bloody fantastic idea! Imagine it, a book of the WWII air war, with side panels of your Lordship's and Jenkins' adventures. I would buy that in a heart beat!
I love how you can keep an audience seated and attentive with your awesome combo of facts and wit mixed to perfection. 'Please, sir, I want some more.'
Minor but important point at 11:10 American Independence day celebrates us writing a strongly worded letter to King George (The Declaration of Independence), not the military victory (which occurred on Oct 19th - 7 years later) or the treaty (Sept 3rd - 8 years later). I raise this because it really shows how much we Americans really love celebrating symbolic gestures.
I like that you have a dog now. I also like the general or captain or whatever with the dog. He seemed very competent and trustworthy, while all those dogless fellows were very catty and unept.
Good day M' Lord As a computer science student I just wanted to say while yes that bomb sight did indeed suck arse it's rather impressive to me that they achieve what they did with analogue technology as it is not an easy task with modern digital technology. They do have it generally speaking figured out now but that is with modern digital technology and smart weapons that can guide themselves all the way in. Kind regards, A Yorkshire Las
Exceptionally well done as usual. I echo all the sentiments in the comments above. Well most of them. I eagerly await the next installment. I also look forward to your examination of the B29 as my father was a radio operator on one in the Pacific
Brilliant video again , a lot of information that is completely new to me. Although another tragic story of Lions lead bravely to the abattoir by a bunch of Donkeys. I have to say the description of the Ploesti raid left me with tears in my eyes. So amazingly brave . Thanks again my lord look forward to the next film.❤
Really do love your content. It always challenges my view on what you’re talking about and helps me stop and think before making an assumption on something
Super documentary. My respect for the bravery of the flying men is beyond words. My disdain for the narrow minded leadership of those men is deep and strong. When at Duxford, I always spend some time at the glass panels outside the US building. There is a list of those that lost their lives inside, so I take three or four in my head and once outside, I stand by the glass and thank those chaps for their service. There is also a memorial in the Woodman pub in Nuthampstead. Words are said when I go there too.
This is such good content - and as an American who loved war (as a subject!) - and built heaps of WW2 aircraft models - I grew up believing that the air campaigns were wildly successful. It's depressing to hear how deluded these commanders were & how much death & destruction (of their men & machines, the enemy seems to have been mostly fine) their stubborn refusal to recognize what was happening. The P-38 existed & had the range - drop tanks existed in the 1930s, there really was no reason to send these young men to their deaths without escort fighters.
Many, many congratulations on passing 30k subscribers! You have a terrific channel, and your research is second to none. I cannot wait to see you press on to 40k and further. Well done.
What Ho! Another fine example of a Lord HardThrasher video! Been enjoying the series and it is always a happy day for me when another one of your videos appears on i-pad. Well done, and thank you. Interesting, educational and done with style.
Just discovered your channel,awesome!.I am amazed anyone won any wars.What a waste of life,time,money etc.good to see we are still keeping up the tradition.
Well firstly, hello and welcome! I think it pays to remember that most people are trying to make wars short, but not all, some are focused on making a point and winning an argument, or just getting promoted, or making money as you people die & those fuckers need calling out. Hence my undying love for Bill Sherman, Grant, Wellington, Nelson, Monty, Alexander, Patton, Slim etc. If people have to die, then win and win quick by whatever means are necessary. Don't fanny about :)
@HardThrasher someone in my family was in charge of logistics in ww1,classic cock up.we were the landlord's of putney Bridge,putney,Chelsea & Fulham. Now we have fuck all.I believe it was lord Alinson/Alingson, some shit like that,anyway he was total dick.My brother researched this about 15 yrs ago,now all the info has been taken off the Internet. All the best Tommy xxx(I want my bridge back).
I’ve been waiting in keen anticipation for this instalment and again you didn’t fail in delivering another great presentation and can’t wait for the next one.🇦🇺✈️
Thank you so much for all the work you've put into this series, the results are nothing short of outstanding! Also, as a side note, I'm starting to develop an irrational hatred for those GOD DAMNED BALL BEARING PLANTS!
