Christopher Cox Well there’s differently and then there’s putting out false information and trying to make money off of it which he does consistently. But I liked what you said, and its very true.
@@boeing900 STKO began making videos years ago for budget minded air rifle shooters. That eventually turned into adding .22lr, budget friendly rifles into the mix along with DIY accurizing/matching ammo to the rifle to find maximum accuracy for a particular rifle. If you have not watched enough of his videos to understand what his channel is for and who he is trying to help, then it's easy to see how you might be misinformed about what STKO does and why. When have YOU ever purchased a "budget" .22lr rifle and YOU, YOURSELF, without the aid of a gunsmith or custom after-market gadgets, made that rifle accurate? That is what STKO has been doing quite successfully for a very long time. You appear to be "smug" and a wee bit "holier than thou" when you talk about STKO and what he does. If you are going to berate a man then accuse him of putting out false information for the sake of making money, then you should be man enough to go to his channel and commit to proving it, or offer an apology and quietly minding your own business... On another note; there are plenty of YT channels where shooters are using sand bags and bipods and shooting high grade target .22s and shooting groups that easily rival those that you display here! I have shot plenty of such groups myself over the years off sand bags and bipods. As far as STKO goes and your accusations, put up or shut up.
.413-.350” groups @ 50yards with my Ruger American with $50 TrueGlow scope using Remington Golden Bullets from a 1400 round bucket for $79.97 from Walmart and Federal Match Target ammo from a 325 round $21box from Walmart. When I use SK Match I get .287-.393” groups@ 50 yards. With a carpeted pine wood rest. Nice shooting, awesome groups!! I’m definitely interested in some of that wolf if you have any to spare please.
I'd love to see you shoot this rifle and any of your ammo in the St. Patrick's day challenge at day at the range. I don't know wtf this is in my watch list, but anyway, post your results on day at the range. Would be fun as hell to watch...
Just like you I was looking on YT for a decent ammo comparison done by someone that's not using a terrible rifle and iron sights. Thank you for your detailed examination and excellent process. If only everyone was this good.
Granted this is an older video, but I think I’ve seen at least three people ask about the rear bag rider but received no response. Is this some sort of secret design from the Federal government?
Thanks for your video. I have 5 squirrel rifles and shoot high vel hollow point ammo, average 1260fps and with my anschutz 1416 with swarovski 3x10x42 shoot 2 1/0" to the same bullet hole groups with rws. My cz 455 with meopta 3x9x40 average 3/8" to 2/8"with bulk ammo winchester 36g hp. My ruger american rimfire 3/8" to 2/8" with cci mini mags. And my ruger kidd build 3/8" with fiocchi 38g hp. Off a $75 Caldwell shooting rest! At 50 yards. I think is all very impressive, since they are hunting rifles, not target rifles, and bulk ammo except the rws.
I still think a comparison of match grade ( or near match grade) ammo , in a more plebian or "non-match-grade" gun....is still a worthwhile effort and should still produce meaningful results. This...in answer to you saying match ammo should only be compared in match-grade guns. Sure....combining match-with-match in both cases will result in the best answer, the comparative results of ammo should (likely) still be valid.
Here's the problem. The difference between the "Match" grade ammo and the "run of the mill" grade ammo, produced by each manufacturer such as Lapua or Eley, is actually very little. The components found in each individual companies match ammo are exactly the same as what is in their lower grade ammo. The only difference is that, for whatever reason, the ammo that ends up being their Match grade are the production runs that show more consistent results when tested. And in order to see and take advantage of that consistency requires a rifle with exacting close tolerances, especially when it comes to the barrel and chamber. The video I've linked illustrates this beautifully. It just so happens to be of Kidd's production of match barrels and chambers, but it could be any high quality barrel manufacturer. You will see why unless you are using this grade of rifle you will never see the difference between even match ammo and a lower grade, much less between two different match ammo brands. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--DMDV94YJ9A.html
First let me say this was a very interesting video and well done. I have no idea how expensive that Wolf ammo is but may have to investigate it. BUT, let me also say you sir an expensive rifle snob! You are badmouthing James from STKO who is just a regular guy that loves shooting and obviously doesn't have a 4-5000 dollar rifle like you do, and maybe 800 bucks worth of rifle supporting devices and a 700 dollar lab radar chronograph. I am sure he loves shooting just as you and I do and he is using what he has to enjoy the sport. He is not as you have insinuated a goober with a 50 year old rifle and junk scope. HE IS A FELLOW SHOOTER that has helped many others enjoy the shooting sports( airguns and rifles) myself included, dealing with air rifles. I too own an older Remington Sportmaster 512 and love shooting it. It has a nice scope on it for me, purchased from Athlon( a lower level Talos) and I shoot from those as you insinuate again, horrid sandbags made by Caldwell. I must say that with all your funds you have spent your groups are great. I'm out on a limb buying ELEY Target at 6.00 a box and std CCI 1070fps 40 gr. and my groups have been averaging .4" at 50 yds without your expensive tuner, 15-20$ a box ammo and fancy supports. Just a regular guy, shooting a regular gun built in 1962 ( thats almost 60 years old) I got it when I was 8 years old and been shooting it long enough to know how and its got a 3 lbs trigger. But I hope you continue to post videos and maybe see if you can leave just a little bit of the tone of snobbery out of your efforts. Just the facts Fred, with a bit of respect for others please!
SFZX 54 excellent comment, I have several .22s from inexpensive to custom built benchrest set up similar to his and honestly except for the last groups shot with Wolf MT, they are not impressive for the equipment he has and the time he puts in it. I also didn't like starting up the video by dragging someone else's equipment and methods, we can all enjoy the sport using what we have, I'm sure there is someone out there interested in watching the other guy's video shooting his 60 year old 22 rested on his inexpensive sand bag. Anyway, to the OP good video with lots of detail on his observations and notes. Thanks for sharing!
I like your analysis thanks for the time spent. I am very interested in the rear rest that you are using. Can you let us know what it is and were it comes from.
Finally, a rational comparison of ammunition with some standards concerning the rifle and equipment. Great work. Any possibility for the same kind of test with more pedestrian ammo like CCI standard velocity, Aguila SV, and stuff like that which is inexpensive for practice?
Nice setup and thx. I just bought a CZ455 and it likes the Eley Target. I like to shoot sporter and silhouette. WIll try some wolf when I can find it. Thx again, FletchMan
I have a CZ457 and would like information on where the rear rail is from. I have that same mechanical rear rest, but with the MTR stock it still has too much angle to work as well as a bag. I think adding that rail should put both the front and rear on the same plane. Scott
I looked at this video for the second time. I’m considering a tuner for my gun and wanted to review the tuner effect on your accuracy. Your data presents a case for having a tuner. Everything I read indicates that tuners are ammunition sensitive and that a change in ammo would require retuning the gun. I’m assuming velocity variances between brands is the reason for readjusting the tuner. Have you compared your accuracy results vs bullet speed when shooting with the tuner? I’m also assuming tuner settings were not changed throughout this series and bullet weights were all 40gr. My hats off to you for all the work you put into this video.
Stuart Brown Thanks Stuart. To calculate the center to center group size, fire a round off to the side on your target and measure the size of the hole from outer edge to outer edge of the stain left by the round. What it measures is what you subtract from the overall group size which you also measure from the outer edge of the stain of the two most outer holes. A lot of people use the “standard” correction of .213, which is the diameter of the 22 round. The thing is, the size of the hole the round leaves depends on the quality of the paper. Paper will stretch as the round goes through then contracts. Therefore the hole it leaves is actually smaller then the diameter of the bullet. Most store bought targets are made with low quality paper which can actually leave a hole larger then the diameter of the round because instead of stretching when it’s hit it tears. If you want to be as accurate as possible you have to measure a single hole made in the paper your actually shooting at.
I usually shoot a Savage Mark II TR .22LR with a Boyds Tactical hardwood stock that came with the rifle from Savage. I have also shot a Ruger .22LR 10-22 Take Down with the same results that I describe below (My Ruger .22LR New Single Action revolver has also worked in the same manner at 50 yards when scoped with a 2.5 scout scope.). My rifle MOA's at 50 and 100 yards are usually sub MOA (My target is a 3/4 inch circle at both 50 and 100 yds.). My current preferred 22LR at 50 and 100 yards is SK Long Range AFTER I have used a Neal Waltz resizing die on the ammo (A Lee hand held press works well with the resizing die.). The die does two things that I identify as improving the precision (No, I have no targets to demonstrate.). One, resizing ensures that for 360 degrees the 22LR driving rings are a consistent 0.225 in., and two, that the rings are 0.225 in. to ensure positive contact with the rifling grooves. The die will not correct the deficiencies of sub-standard ammo (Remington and Winchester examples of poorly made ammo.). Good ammo that I have used is SK, Lapua and Wolf 22LR ammo (Each of the aforementioned use an oil for lubrication as opposed to a wax used by CCI and Ely.) Also, one may use the die to create/modify .22LR hollow point ammo. Will the COAL (cartridge over all length) change? Yes, usually with the SK the change will be from 0.980 in. to about 0.940 in.
Wow, very interesting and it makes a lot of sense. Driving ring consistency is critical to bullet alignment. And to be able to eliminate that variable from the list of variables we have no control over in factory ammo is a great improvement. I will defiantly get that die. I don't need "proof" that driving ring uniformity increases accuracy. Thanks for the great tip. As to the ammo itself. I completely agree with with your choice. For me Lapua is the way to go from all that's available on the market today. I found Federal Ultra Match to be excellent ammo also. Fortunately I was able to buy several cases of it when it was discontinued at a really good price ($7.50/per 50). As for Ely, I have been nothing but disappointed every time I've tried it. Thanks again for your excellent comments.
malcolm gary No Malcolm, not as of. In fact I haven’t even been shooting since before my previous response. Hard to believe but since this whole virus thing hit Ive actually been working more then before. I fly the 777 for United, and they have secured a lot of international cargo contracts since this whole thing started and the 777 is the go to plane. And they are rather long trips, usually six to as long as 10 day trips. In fact, I’m heading out to Hong Kong, the start of a seven day trip in a few hours. So, between that and keeping up with things at home I gust haven’t had the time. But as soon as I can I’m going to and will post the results.
Thanks so much for this video. It has helped me a fair bit. I am very interested in accuracy in .22. I never shot a match yet. I want to. I do not have a BR stock. Hart rest and rear bag. I use a Anschutz 1510 meister hb. 1.3 lbs trigger pull. I was not sure how to get the measurements for size od the bullet and subtract it. From the center. I use rws special match. I use the same lot number. That works best. With your help of teaching me how to measure 200 rounds 5 shot groups. My over all average is .307 at 50 yards. Thank you s much. Also any tips on my shooting please say so.
Because you're measuring the visual representation of the hole the bullet made, not the bullet itself. The bullet doesn't cut its way thru the target, it more like push its way thru. Once it has, the paper rebounds, closing up the hole some. The hole it made is obviously at least .223 in diameter, but when you measure it, outside edge to outside edge, a higher quality target(heavier weight paper) will produce a nice round hole with no tearing but will visually measure smaller than .223. So to get a more accurate C to C measurement I shoot a single somewhere on the target an use that measurement as my correction factor.
Actually I wasn't bored with it at all. Quite a good test. I would be interested in your further test of that wolf. I have a plain old CZ452 and it shoots the wolf very very well. As good as the 18 dollar a box stuff.
Agree with you totally, to test for the best ammo you need a first class rifle, semi autos don't do the job and 50 yards is a starting point, 100yards is a bonus, my friend competes with a tuned CZ with a March Scope, mag up to x60, he is one hole grouping 5 shots in competition with Eley Sport, he buys 5000 after he finds which batch suits best, I like this professional approach!
...shot my stock 10/22 Target Tactical @50 yards for the first time last week (usually shoot @100) and put 9 rounds in one hole of around 0.4" (1 barrel warmer; next 5 were in 0.25") using Eley Action bulk (42grn) with x18 Hawke scope off a cheap bipod and rear bag. It was cold and wet so not great conditions. A good barrel, well matched ammo and experience can do pretty decent job.
Whats your method when switching brands? Sounds like if the lube is the same you just continue on? If they are not, do you patch/foul or shoot "x" amount of next ammo thru before recording? Just picked up a Annie 62 and about 15 options to test. Looking for a good method between brands.
Steve Well I start a session with a clean bore. Say I first want to test some Midas +. I’ll first foul the bore with 7 rounds of SK Standard. After 7 rounds that’s where my barrel starts it’s accuracy, so then I’ll start testing the Midas. I’ll test Lapua up tp 100 rounds and then just run a dry patch and shoot 3 rounds of the SK if I have more Lapua to test. But, if I’m going to switch brands I’ll clean the bore well with some FrogLube regardless of where I’m at with my 100 round count then re-foul it with 7 rounds of the next brand then start testing it.
@@boeing900 Thanks Fred, that was what I was looking for. Also, in my own testing I've found starting with the thinner lubed brands (Lapua) working towards Eley black/red cut down on how many fouling rounds. Seems like when I did another rifle I started the other way and it took a considerable amount of rounds (20-30) to get the groups to tighten. Thanks and keep the shiny side up.
I have a 20" kidd barrel and set my jnl tuner to 119 and its lights out shooting. Just curious what setting you have yours set to? I feel like this is a valuable starting point for most people trying to set their tuner but for some reason Its a secret. Please share your tuner setting next time. Thanks
Daniel Willis Within the range of the tuner you can probably find two, maybe three basic settings that will work as starting points for fine tuning. For me 235 worked the best so that’s my starting point when testing different ammo brands or different lots of a brand. But I highly doubt that setting will work for you mainly because I have a 24 inch barrel were as yours is a 20 inch. But hay you never know, it may.
pierre lebrasseur The .190 is the correction factor you apply in order to get a center to center measurement of the two holes furthest away from each other in the group.Depending on the quality of paper you’re shooting the size of the hole a round makes will very. So you measure the diameter a single hole that’s off by itself setting the blades of the caliper at the outer edges of the lead stain of the hole. Then when measuring the group size you also measure the outer edge of the lead stain of the two furthest away holes then subtract the correction factor. This gives you the group size based on the distance from the center of the two holes furthest away from each other in the group.
pierre lebrasseur Oh, Ok. Sorry, I misunderstood your question..Yes, the 22s diameter is .223 but the diameter of the apparent hole it leaves will very depending on the quality and weight of the paper that your shooting. All paper will stretch around the bullet but then rebounds.The amount of stretch depends on its weight and quality. This stretching can be seen by the evidence it leaves behind, the lead stain. If you shoot let’s say a shingle, or a thin piece of plywood the hole it leaves will measure close to but not exactly .223 because the bullet is compressed, say .025, as it moves through the bore. Plywood doesn’t stretch, if at all, like paper will, therefore the hole it leaves will probably measure right at .198 in the plywood and let’s say .190 in 67wt paper. This is why it’s important to a quality paper when testing ammo. Shoot at say looseleaf paper or some of that really cheap target paper and you’ll get holes bigger then .223 and a lot of tearing.
