So couple of people have asked about Eric 'Winkle' Brown's comments on the jet. I didn't include anything on Winkle because, whilst I think he was amazing, was also an angry wee Scot who said a lot of things. For those who're intrested this is the quote from Paul Beaver's excellent biography of Brown "The first operational jet fighter [sic.] had a special place in Eric's heart. He was probably the first Allied pilot to fly it and he certainly relished the sweepwing design, even if he didn't quite trust the power plant. Eric's logbooks are unclear on the exact number of flights, but there are significant dates, such as 24 June 1945, when at Grove on a cockpit familiarization and engine run the port engine exploded. That did not deter Eric, and he would speak fondly of the 262 and its potential to have changed the war had it been introduced into service sooner."
Yes, I seem to remember catching an interview of him talking of a time he saw one reduce a Liberator to confetti in revered tones. Wonderful stuff. Still have both my fingers crossed A Tornado vid will get an outing one day.
My God that's like a pastor speaking irreverently about the apostle Paul. No comment riots...really??? What Brown had to say about Udet was even more interesting. "Hals und Beinbruch".
He did say a *lot* of things. But he was an insanely good pilot with a well reigned-in sense of fear. But yeah, take some of what he said with a pinch of salt. (Still, survived a dogfight with a 109 while flying a Skua).
@@HardThrasher how to tell the most terminal of Werhaboos. They think the Me 163 komet was actually a good plane and that the Maus could have been a useful tank and not simply a ridiculous waste of steel, incapable of crossing all but the very strongest of bridges.
"Udet finally did the decent thing" reminds me of my favorite joke. "No one talks about all the good things Hitler did. For example, he did kill Hitler."
I don't know how you can say it wasn't effective. It sucked up tremendous resources that were in short supply, it killed lots of German pilots, and it had little effect on the Allied air forces. Aside from the deaths of POWs it sounds like exactly the kind of aircraft the Allies would want Germany to have.
Honestly, the fact that you think this is an indication of your lack of critical thinking skills. Insert any other aircraft, Allied or Axis into the Luftwaffe at 1943 and you get the same result. That doesn't make them shit aircraft. And every country was going to try experimental concepts. All of those would and did have issues resulting from being experiments. Also you have to take into account the constraints and conditions. It's a bit like comparing Arsenal to Real Madrid. Both big boys, but one is at a completely different level in terms of access to things.
Not untrue, but MadThrasher did touch on this with some irony. And Alex, his critical thinking skills ARE intact because he’s correct. The resources the Nazis dedicated to the 262, the V2, that gigantic tank by Porsche, the huge railway cannons, not to mention their naval mistakes, those all proved more a drain than a positive, and served to nd the war more quickly, thank God. The conditions and constraints the Nazis faced were a failed fascist ideology coupled with being utterly destroyed by the rest of the world. The ME-262 was a desperate gasp from a regime that was being crushed to oblivion. That said, it was an attractive aircraft of war. Too bad about the corruption that plagued it and all else Nazi…I mean, thank the Lord for Nazi corruption.
@@ronjon7942 While, I don't wholly disagree in a certain context. And I certainly don't disagree about the garbage Nazi system and all its attendant baggage, that doesn't make all of the criticisms wholly valid. For example, every large government fighting a war is going to try to develop new weapons. And these will certainly have attendant problems related to development. As I said, would this have been different if the Nazis developed the Spitfire or P-51 or Meteor? And a losing or outmanned side is going to look for force multipliers and edges, even if they run the risk of being inefficient. Would a cost-effective concept have changed things? Doubtful. I mean had they not looked at jets, that would have been a failing as well, for which they would have been criticized. What would have brought them victory? Quite likely their fate was sealed if not by invading Poland, likely by Barbarossa. Tigers and 262s is just the notes to their calvalcade of defeat. That being said, the penchant for authoritarians and insecure little corporals for compensatory uber-big weapons is certainly a failing. But "The Nazis were dumb for trying to develop a jet fighter and getting one going when there was no template" is a bit off considering most everyone was trying it. As I said elsewhere, it's a bit like criticizing early ironclads for the problems they ran into. What else is one to do, and it has to be tried.
@@alexyoon-sungcucina7895Ok, points well taken. I was guilty of being caught up in the inherent evils, corruption, and hunger for power of fascism - likely because I’m caught up with the same with our modern day socialist agenda - and thusly degenerated, the Nazis weren’t capable of successfully developing and producing the ME-262. With their world crumbling, obviously simply pouring the last of their resources into the same weaponry was not going to change their status quo, so expending those resources, in desperation, on newer ideas for weaponry, force multipliers so to speak, can make sense. It has always seemed odd to me that Germany started its invasions without a sufficient four-engined bomber for offensive strikes, as well as choosing to continually upgrade the Me-109 and FW-190, rather than develop newer, more capable fighters. Also, except for Sea Lion, Nazi Germany seemed to default its use of aircraft to a more defensive posture. Maybe this doctrine is a reason why the Me-262 languished until it was too late. Had it been operational in 1943, because of a proper and an aggressive fighter development program, it would have been, as you point out, absolutely a force multiplier. I suppose there were many other technologically advanced systems that were available to the Reich for development, early and midway in the war. But for some reason, Hitler and/or Goering and/or the Reich, it seems, did not advocate for their development until it was far too late. Perhaps the Vengeance weapons were developed early…almost…but production occurred pretty late in the war, when things were getting scarce. But so many designs that would have been logical improvements to replace what was in use, simply weren’t pursued, and those that were, were pursued far too late. Maybe this logical progression of development and production of newer technologies immediately after the Me-109 was flying is what could have been what turned the war around - or kept it in the Nazis favor…that, and not invade Russia. Sorry, strayed a bit. From an aeronautical engineering perspective, it’s fun to imagine what Germany could have developed, and to even feel that it’s a shame the Me-262 wasn’t effective, although of course from a human point of view…well, you get it. Too bad Germany elected to go fascist rather than capitalist, and elected a monster. Good talk, mate!
Ok, points well taken. I was guilty of being caught up in the inherent evils, corruption, and hunger for power of fascism - likely because I’m caught up with the same with our modern day socialist agenda - and thusly degenerated, the Germans weren’t capable of successfully developing and producing the ME-262. With their world crumbling, obviously simply pouring the last of their resources into the same weaponry was not going to change their status quo, so expending those resources, in desperation, on newer ideas for weaponry, force multipliers so to speak, can make sense. It has always seemed odd to me that Germany started its invasions without a sufficient four-engined bomber for offensive strikes, as well as choosing to continually upgrade the Me-109 and FW-190, rather than develop newer, more capable fighters. Also, except for Sea Lion, Germany seemed to default its use of aircraft to a more defensive posture. Maybe this doctrine is a reason why the Me-262 languished until it was too late. Had it been operational in 1943, because of a proper and an aggressive fighter development program, it would have been, as you point out, absolutely a force multiplier. I suppose there were many other technologically advanced systems that were available to the Reich for development, early and midway in the war. But for some reason, Hitler and/or Goering and/or the Reich, it seems, did not advocate for their development until it was far too late. Perhaps the Vengeance weapons were developed early…almost…but production occurred pretty late in the war, when things were getting scarce. But so many designs that would have been logical improvements to replace what was in use, simply weren’t pursued, and those that were, were pursued far too late. Maybe this logical progression of development and production of newer technologies immediately after the Me-109 was flying is what could have been what turned the war around - or kept it in the Germans favor…that, and not invade Russia. Sorry, strayed a bit. From an aeronautical engineering perspective, it’s fun to imagine what Germany could have developed, and to even feel that it’s a shame the Me-262 wasn’t effective, although of course from a human point of view…well, you get it. Too bad Germany elected to go fascist rather than capitalist, and elected a monster. Good talk, mate!
On the luftwaffe being basically grounded at the end of the war: My best friend’s grandpa was a 109 pilot and according to him, he basically never left the ground for the last year or two of the war because they never had fuel.
"They're massive metal boxes with a big gun on the front of them. I don't see what the attraction is." Me, a tanker: "They're massive metal boxes with a big gun on the front of them. That's exactly what the attraction is."
You missed the biggest single contribution of the Me262 to postwar technology - its starter motors made really good engines for motor scooters and microcars.
@@jeffbybee5207 That’s what powered the postwar Messerschmitt and BMW microcars… The Jumo engines used a small two cylinder pull start engine as a starter motor for the gas turbines.
I love that story but unfortunately the Messerschmitt KR200, or Kabinenroller (Cabin Scooter) used a 191 cc Fichtel & Sachs two-stroke single cylinder engine and the BMW Isetta 250 and 300 (Bubble Cars), used a modified version of the 250 cc single cylinder four-stroke engine from the BMW R25/3 motorcycle, the Riedel starter used in the ME262 was a 270cc horizontally opposed twin two stroke and was only designed to run for approx 4 mins and if run much longer then it tended to overheat according to RAE Farnborough who tested one in 1945. Here is one running : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BGUqV0dl9gA.html
This whole episode reminds me of an old joke: "My grandfather single handedly killed more Germany pilots than anyone else in World War II. They called him the Luftwaffe's Worst mechanic."
Anthony Jeselnik (comedian): I have German heritage, so my family history is a little divided.. During the war the BAD Jeselniks were in Germany fighting for the Nazi Regime. Meanwhile the GOOD Jeselniks were in America... ..spying for the Germans.
My father in laws dad was an early airplane mechanic (1920s) and they had to go up in the plane after they worked on it. maybe boeing exectutives need to sit next to the door.
G'day, To quote Billy Wobblestick... (William, of the Shakespeare Tribe...), "As Pithed as a Newt...!" Such is life, Have a good one... Stay safe. ;-p Ciao !
Chuck Yeager said that his wing developed a technique for them: follow them to their airfield after their mission and knock them down when they were out of fuel and helpless on final approach to the runway. He said that “it wasn’t very sporting, but it sure worked”
It wasn’t a question of “out of fuel” - the Ju004 engines self destructed if pushed from idle to full power faster than 10seconds. Now try waiting ten seconds while being shot at before you can retract the landing gear on your plane… Single engine failures also slowed them down to the point a Russian fighter could take them down (they got two). P-51’s had a higher safe dive speed than the Me262 to boot…
As a fact, the only time the Allied planes could follow the speed of the German Jets, was during start and landing! I saw an interview with a German Arado pilot, that he had a periscope made on his plane, to prevent this! An Arado had no view to the back if not.
@@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188 German Jets were extremely vulnerable if they had an engine failure too (so every third or fourth flight (they were that bad)).
@@allangibson8494 Planes and engines being built from parts made all over Germany, in small Factories, below viaducts over roads and in caverns and they hadn't the needed product control, being heavily bombed and built also much by prisoners, not interested in making a quality product, but more the opposite! But anyway the Germans made the largest number of planes at the very end of the war, in 1944!
9:59 Love the shout-out to the Lightning for the "Now obviously the correct response to this [where to put the fuel outside of in the wings] is to simply weld two giant fuel tanks to the top of the wings as God and King intended..." line 🙂
What delayed the Me262 was the ENGINES. The Ju004 had a critical design fault that wasn’t solved until late 1943 - they had an EVEN number of turbine blades and as a result they resonated as the blades moved behind the EVEN number of burners. The vibration in the turbine caused the engine to consistently shatter after five hours of operation. When they switched to a prime number of blades that raised the mean time to failure to twenty hours (the Rolls Royce Derwent prototype was managing two hundred hours at the same time). This resulted in the scrapping the first five thousand engines built.
The Jump 004 had plenty of critical problems - the Compressor and Turbine Aerodynamics were, to put a good face on it, crap. Pressure Ratio was poor, even by 1st Jet Engine Standards, the fuel control wasn't even up to the level of Primitive, and the bearings were utter crap. Junkers had contracted a new compressor design from Brown-Boverei in Switzerland, but the War ended before it showed up. The fact is, by early 1944, the Germans weren't even in the Jet Engine Race - that contest was between the Americans and the Brits - with the Westinghouse J30, the GE J31 (Which did get some help from Whittle's work) was in full production, and already passed along because it was too small, the TG-100 (T31) Turboprop was already running, along with the J33 (Which, while a Centrifugal jet, was GE's own project), and the Axial J35 were already running at more than twice the thrust of a Jumo. Rolls's Jet Engineer, Stanley Hooker, on seeing both the J33 and J35 run, went back to Rolls, telling them that if they didn't pull their fingers out, they Americans were going to take it all away, and that spawned the Nene and Derwent. Oh, yeah - there was also Armstrong Siddely and Metrovick, and DeHaviland with their engines. Even the Soviets only cursorily played with the German jets after the War, preferring their own designers and some Industrial Espionage.
@@peterstickney7608 The RR Avon was a combination of the Nene turbine with the AS Sapphire axial compressor… The British developers were quite happy to work together to get a better result. All the early axial flow engines had “issues” because small axial flow engines are FRAGILE… (They really come into their own at above 8,000lb of thrust when they get enough meat in the blades).
The idea of the Me-262 "rethinking" into a fighter bomber from a pure fighter was actually planted by David Irving in the early 70s. As we all know, Irving is an unbiased historian and uncanny researcher(Sarcasm)
Yeah, it's actually super-hard to unpick because all roads lead to Irving who got the only interview with the guy who was escorting Goering around aaannnddd then everyone just sort of piled on. Dan Sharpe has done a really excellent job of laying out the evidence as best as is possible
@@HardThrasher Irving really annoys me, not just because he's a Nazi, but because he actually did his research. He was in possession of a lot of priceless information and must have been able to write genuinely great and accurate books. He just decided not to, and instead write so much crap that nobody can trust anything he wrote, even the things that might actually be true and unbiased. Furthermore, he must actually know he's wrong. The Neo Nazis who read his books can at least claim to be mislead. He's just... Committed to defending what he knows is a strawman of the Nazi state?
Later in the war the big American fighter, the "Jug" was sent on ground attack. Originals it would fly high but when the P-51s with long range drop tanks came in they were used as escorts.
Well, Russian planes fly somehow. Although they were designed in the Soviet times, when the state, while dysfunctional, was not as dysfunctional as today, which is very much like what is described in the video - a potemkin village built on greed and fear. That said, virtually all Russian planes are copies of western designs (often those that lost in the competitions), at least German designs are more or less original.
@@BoraHorzaGobuchulif you had accused the USSR at this point of building planes out of lumber and paper mache you might have a point. If you had said some of their designs were obsolete you could be right, if you said political interference affected what got built I would agree with you. Copying the west is not something they are doing any more than any other country keeps abrest of design trends.
@@francesconicoletti2547 not really. They had - and have - while departments in their design bureaus full of parts of aircraft obtained through various means - from crashes on controlled territories, to stolen or purchased through this parties, and of design documents from industrial espionage. Yak 38 is based on a German VAG-something vtol prototype, frogfoot is a copy of North American's failed competitor to the a-10, mig-23/27 is based on a mirage design, and so on. If you dig well enough, you will find a source for just about every airplane/helicopter, military or civilian, with the exception of the kamov design bureau. And that is a result of the cpsu policy that it's better to use more or less proven ideas so as not to risk falling behind the West too far. Now it is further reinforced by the fact that unlike in the USSR, retention of capable staff is a real problem, so it's all going downhill and it's beginning to take form of a true potemkin village; also, copying older stuff was relatively easy, now with electronics defining capability there is just no way to keep up.
Huzzah! Have read accounts of the utter mechanical unreliability for years, and now maybe I'll hear a reasonable assembly of "This is how you beat a country, ECONOMICALLY" mixed with "You have to land, SOMETIME".
The main problem WW2's portrayal in books, movies, video games, etc. Nobody wants to see the maintenance and logistics side of war, they want Me-262s and P-51s dogfighting; or Shermans battling a Tiger II. When in reality, maybe 5% of these vehicles' time was spent in combat, the other was maintenance and transport and marching. So it's easy to compare flight data of the ME-262 with any other plane and say it's "superior", but that's only ignoring the context. And ignoring historical context is what WW2 buffs are best at.
So in summary, the 262 was equivalent to a 2000hp muscle car. A 3 wheeled, exhaust port in the dashboard with the windows sealed, along with a some timey transmission. However, if the transmission can make it past first gear, the car doesn't slam into the sidewall, and the driver doesn't pass out from carbon monoxide poisoning, it can beat the 7 second bel-air. But after it wins, the engine is going to have to be rebuilt after 1 heat.
it was a highly advanced 1950s fighter that the Germans could neither produce (due to not having access to rare materials) nor bring to the fight (due to losing on all fronts, on land, sea and air)
In defense of the Me 262, I love its sharky curves and its overall camouflage appearance. Sure it was trash, sure it was an occupation hazard for anyone around it, let alone piloting the damn thing, sure its engines were tubular IEDs attached to the wings, sure the Nazis made it, sure it life spawn was tinnier than a B-29 engine, but still... I get a hard-on every time I see one. Well that wasn't much of a defense at all, but hey at least nobody can call me a Nazi because of it.
That’s the thing, rushed into service built by slaves it wasn’t going to be a star performer. It was at best an interceptor, flying up to bomber streams hopefully getting a few rounds off and that was about it.
@@rannyacernese6627 As Sir Sydney Camm once said, “All modern aircraft have four dimensions - span, length, height and politics." Given that we're talking about a plane from wartime Germany, it's only to be expected that the politics part would be extra complicated and problematic...
"The Nazis made it" is NOT as insulting as you might think. I mean, if you're an American, then you owe your ENTIRE space program to the Nazis. And that's not hyperbole, either; There are stories of the early space program having difficulties that prevented it from being able to make ANY progress at all. It was only after the decision was made to let the Nazi scientists run the entire program that the USA was finally able to get "to the stars (ie - Ad Astra)"
@@Raz.C I'm talking about the mass scale slave labor used to produce the war machine, in this case the 262. Whatever happened afterwards is irrelevant since that does not mitigate nor overrides the past.
No they didnt the m262 could have been a lot better but because germany lacked essential recources it led to many of its downgrades, for the time and the material limitations its still a fantastic aircraft. The czech airforce used a copy of the me262 for a while
@@Silver_Prussian he was saying that the slaves forced to work on it wanted the nazis flying them dead, also the British jet fighter of the time was in all ways except speed better
@@akilaspring3414 the people who assembled the aircraft were slaves, the people that were working for the recources need however were. The brittish aircraft was not ready on time though was it ? And the only reason for many of the flaws of the me262 was because of the lack of high quality materials at the time of its construction. If that wasnt the case its performance would be much better than it was.
The real problem was that Germany had effectively lost the war by the end of 1941 with the failure of the blitz on Britain, failure in the battle of the Atlantic, and the failure of operation Barbarossa. A fighter with more speed and range could have made a difference before then, afterwards it needed a miracle.
Totally agree with this analysis from Lord HardThrasher. I've heard people say things like "if the Nazis had had the 262 earlier then they could have carried on fighting for at least another year" where upon I say "no they wouldn't they would have just been nuked to oblivion in August 1945" . I even heard a modern German extolling the virtues of the plane to which I said if it was so good why did Avia ( the Czech manufacture ), only make 12 of them after the war but over 600 BF109s?
That one is slightly unfair given Avia didn't have the actual tooling for the 262 and only assembled some (well made (still not great)) 12-18 airframes from the parts for ~50 aircraft that they had on hand, whereas they had an actual line for the 109 and actively sought orders for it.
My main beef with people making claims about so and so weapon is that they always frame it as something so dramatically new and different its mere existence would be so shocking it would rob the allies of all their cognitive capacity, let alone the ability to fight back against said devastating new weapon. I always point out that in another world, where the German army didn't have the MG-34, the 88mm or the FW 190, people would be talking about those weapons being so utterly devastating they would have guaranteed victory in WWII ...
@@rotwang2000 It seems the issue is more with fanboys and wunderwaffe fawners than the actual aircraft. Those are legit issues, but it doesn't really apply to the plane being crap or not.
Sooo youre saying Europe should have been nuked in addition to being already razed to the ground, plundered and half given to Stalin..And you thing you are representing the good guys? Your arrogant decadent lot is now "saving" Ukraine in the exact same way.... Half its population dead or gone [ 1 million in casualties a generation of Ukrainians] and the rest prepared for plunder by Blackrock or occupied by Russia...Please don't "save" anyone ever again .
From the enginnering perspective- it was amazing that it even worked. They used so little metal on them that they started to dissasemble themselfs over the years- the tolerances on ammount of material are should we say - it wouldn't pass any safety standards today. Still think that it's still better than g11- as it achived what it wanted to achive. And that's the gun that kraut-loving crowd is having hard time not filling their laced panties with white goo while thingking about it.
fuck yeah@@ganndeber1621! Out of all fast battleships it's the one that deserves moust bashing for being amalgamation of bad ideas - starting with layout takine from WWI.
39:55 The "shot down while taking off or landing" issue forced the jet squadrons to have Bf.109G fighters as orbiting "security guards" looking out for Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Spitfires and on the eastern end, La-7 "Fin" fighters. Even then, and with flak defense, they lost Me.262s. This is why the "disposable" Heinkel "Volksjaeger" aircraft was concocted, but that is a deathtrap for another time.
Uhm. I dunno about this. Doesn't vulnerability to attack during takeoff and landing apply to EVERY aircraft? I mean, an F-86 could strafe an F-22 as it was taking off or landing. Doesn't mean the F-22 is shit. I dunno, some of the criticisms seem to not really be wholly valid. I get pushing back against the Wehraboo fanboy nonsense, but others would apply to any aircraft operating in such conditions.
@@alexyoon-sungcucina7895Yes, no, maybe so. A gaggle of Bf-109s could likely still have fuel left for protection of their landing mates, whereas 262s would be seriously low on fuel for self defense. But you do make a good point - 262’s died on landing and maybe takeoff because this late in the war, boys were flying 109s and 190s, and there just wasn’t the proper protection at these vulnerable times. The Nazi war machine was grinding to a halt, and these were the times the 262 lived. So yeah, an F-86 could not out a landing F-22 nearly out of gas.
@@alexyoon-sungcucina7895 Pretty much all Allied fighter pilots were told to be on the lookout for the Me.262 and Me.163 from 1944 on and to shoot them down whenever possible. They tried to get them while taking off or landing because they were slow enough then. Allied pilots also hunted "Mistel" flying bombs by strafing any Luftwaffe airfield then showed up at. It was either this or strafing moving trains by mid-1944.
A deathtrap built by slave labor for the average German child to fly. A deathtrap where said slaves would regularly piss on the glue to weaken it, causing it fall apart faster than it normally would.
@@ronjon7942 You misunderstood me, the Bf.109s never left the general area of the airfield the Me.262s were based at. They took off before the jets, guarded them until the jets got fast enough, then landed. When the jets were scheduled to return, they took off and guarded the airspace until the last jet landed, then landed themselves. Germany and Occupied Europe after 1941 had a small number of irregular "factory defense" staffels where test pilots and Luftwaffe reservists would man fighters to guard aircraft factories and aircraft rebuilding plants. This job was commonly done with Bf.109s.
Everytime Nazi apologists try to bring up the technological 'edge' Germany had, I just bring up the Manhattan Project lmao. A wonder weapon that DOES end the war lol.
Could also bring up the g41/43, the king tiger being a thing, using almost as bad of planes as early war ussr at the end of the war, useless vanity projects like the railway artillery thing. Hitler in charge of germanys military industry is akin to if someone put saudi princes in charge of US military contracts.
daft thing is that "technological edge" is what cost them the war, well the whole "rest of the world being bigger" issue helped Germans loved overly complicated stuff that on paper looked good but needed to be also made in numbers they couldn't do, they would have done better keeping it simple
30: The Ar 234's biggest problem was that it only had a crew of 1. One man had to be pilot, bomb aimer, navigator, and defensive gunner. And said defensive guns were fixed...in the tail. Pointing backward. And aimed through a periscope. Meaning they were basically useless.
I really liked the photos I saw of the cockpit. It was so cramped that various engine dials were mounted on the window frame rails. The early models were supposed to land on a retractable skid!
@@John.0z Saw the one at the Air and Space Museum, it's tiny!!!! Saying that, the Ar 234 did do the only Jet on Jet combat by the Germans. Bombed 616 Squadron's detachment airfield in Holland in March 1945 and did damage a Meteor III. Meteors were grounded due to fog and low cloud.
@@richardvernon317 The Ar234 was also a very good reconnaissance platform, and pretty much beyond interception in that role. But like so much about Germany at the time; too little, too late, and in the service of a _very_ strange leadership!
The Soviet 278IAD also came up with the idea of a rearward firing defensive weapon for their single engine fighters early in the war, field modified on the front and aimed via periscope. Yet to aim these things one would have to play 'sitting duck' to line up a shot.
So this might be a hard piece to research, BUT: my grandfather was in the "Flyers HJ". He did some gliding plane training. He volunteered for the Bachem 349 Natter. He was turned down because he was only 15 at the time and the BE 349 never went into serial production. So to Volkssturm he went, turning 16 just a couple of days after the capitulation. He's 94 today. So long story short, I would really like a video about the Bachem BE 349. Have a nice day Mister Thrasher
This channel is amazing. Thank you algorithm. One thing I don't think was mentioned was that most of the later 262s had some wooden parts due to material shortages
The worst thing about my former BMW was made by Takata. If you don't count 5 of 8 timing gear bolts backing out and falling into the oil pan as "bad"...
@wh8787 The sat navs also require an update if they're to be used anywhere outside of Germany. Unless, of course, you actually want to drive into Poland.
The sad fact is, if you look at the hours of maintenance to hours of flight for an F-35, you see a similar "hidden" issue. The good news is, with any luck, the F-35 will have time to work the figure down to an acceptable figure before (hopefully never) going off to a really ugly Total War.
If you are outnumber 10:1 your average pilot only survive 2 combat mission. If a pilot survive 5 combat mission and have "used up" the engine, he is a ace and can get 2 new one. So the 10h engine life is not a practical problem. Its not like Germany did have fuel to spare to be used on a long jet flying training. Not also that the 10h is under combat condition, and after that it need a deep rebuild/maintenance.
I read somewhere that when the Mustangs flying escort were upgraded to 150 octane fuel the TBO of their engine dropped to 25 hours, due to the effects of the nitric acid used to raise the octane.
@@dereksollows9783 Conveniently enough, the Maintenance Schedule for the P-51 includes a 25 hour engine inspection. Normally, it's a matter of making sure it's not dripping oil or coolant, and that the control linkages are adjusted OK. With the 150 PN Fuel, spark plug changes started occurring, since they tended to foul more on the High Performance Number fuel.
"as f**ked as a sock in a teenager's bedroom" - took a minute for the penny to drop but once it did I had to stop the video and pick myself up from the floor :)
As someone who was a big fan of cartoons in the early 2000s with absurd use of sound effects, the sudden "cut off Hitler mid-rant and flush him down the loo" left me wheezing.
The Me262 also wasn't helped by the fact that the Luftwaffe peopled them with HE-111 pilots who no longer had He-111s to fly. Good thing. My father was a P-51D Mustang pilot in the ETO. In the last weeks of the war in Europe, he and his flight leader were retuning from a mission over Germany when a Me262 came out of nowhere like a bat outta hell. The first thing they noticed were tracers. The Me262 whizzed past and kept on going without hitting anything. The intel briefer, interested in the jet encounter, wanted them to make a drawing of the of the jet in question. The flight lead drew a streak across the piece of paper and then led the way to the officer's club. Loved you video. Historian Walter Boyne held the same views you've outlined. It was an interesting development, but not much of a weapon. Hitler might have ordered it developed into a helicopter and it would not have mattered. The engines weren't ready for prime time, even at the end of the war.
@@keithbrown7685 I can just imagine an SS officer assaulting some random toddler on the street to steal their tricycle and slapping the wheels on the Me262
Thanks for summing up available materials in an entertaining video. It all made sense. My childhood plastic model Me-262 fantasies are properly compartmentalized. As a jet engine mechanic during Vietnam and working thru similar wartime insanities this video was sterling on point. Great video.
I'll always love the Me262 as the 'coolest' looking fighter of WW2, but it's design was never intended as more than a interim stage until more reliable, more powerful engines could be mounted integrally within the fuselage or fuselage and wing-roots. The shoddy construction didn't help much, either.
IMO the Jewish work force, dissatisfied with their working agreement, did not produce good quality products. Also, the ME-262 assembly plant was less than ideal, as was the test runway. Some of the pilots were not rated for multi engine jets either. Using recycled pot metal for turbine parts may have possibly shortened engine life somewhat. Nobody got their VW beetles. Morale was poor. Meh, what do I know?
Are you kidding? It's practically become global pastiche nowadays, as if to compensate for the wehrabooing of the 90s. Just like shitting on soviet tech is FINALLY starting to happen after three decades of soviebooing.
Lord Thrasher you madman here I lay in the unenviable state of sobering up at the end of a long night and I get a notification of your Me262 video finally dropping. I shall deny the release of sleep for this.
The British really had the best approach with their first jet fighter. Other than the jet engines, the Meteor was completely conventional. Even when they moved to the Vampire, the twin-boom tail was the only unconventional thing about the airframe.
This has to be one of the most entertaining and witty aviation documentaries I have ever seen, and I have seen far too many. Great job, please do one on Udte and all his weird projects (and lifestyle) next, I haven't heard enough about him yet!
Oh my, I've finally found the man to properly rearrange the mythology and grandeur of the German war machine! Ha! To finally factor in a little bit of "behind the scenes reality. I grew up in the shadow of WWll learning to fly an AT-6 trainer in my kitchen chair as an 8 year old, carefully following instruction from my father, who was a cadet in the Air Corp, and who, ultimately never entered combat before the war ended. I don't know who you are, but you obviously know a lot about the subject, and are extremely entertaining to listen to. It's you irreverent attitude I like the best. It counterbalances every tendency of the majority of enthusiasts, who, over the decades, have glorified what was really just another banker's war. The war was many things, but I appreciate your take in bringing to light what a clown show it really was. I just found your channel tonight and am sure I will enjoy digging in. Thank you, Sir.
The problem with the original tail-dragger version wasn't that the jet exhaust melted the tail wheel but that the thrust of the jets, being below the wing, pushed the nose up (and so the tail down) whilst the jet wash off the runway prevented the tailplane lifting the tail - hence the need to stamp on the wheel brakes to bring the tail off the ground.
“If the war had gone into 1946, the Allies would’ve been facing hordes of Me-262s!” - Wehraboo Mantra. Of course, those 262s would’ve been facing actual hordes of Meteors and Shooting Stars, the latter of which could be built without dealing with bombers or Nazis flailing around with “Vengeance Weapon.”
It is doubtful that the Me 262 would have seen much further development as it was by its nature the product of many compromises. I suspect designs like the Me P.1101, Ta 182, or something derived from these designs would have been looked at more favourably. Could these ever be produced in any quantity that would matter? No. But admittedly these designs were far ahead of anyrhing the allies were working on at the time.
If the war in Europe had gone into 1946, Germany would have faced the A-bomb. (The Manhattan Project was started and continued because the Allies knew the Third Reich was working on a bomb - and had a head start. What wasn't known was how far along the Germans were.) If the war in Europe had gone differently and lasted longer, they would have been paid a visit by Fat Man and Little Boy.
@@JugSouthgate Tell me - how can Nazi Germany take the war into 1946 when they're facing a *total and complete economical collapse in September 1945* ?? That was what the German Reichsbank economists were predicting. Even *that* might have been optimistic for Nazi Germany was on palliative car/life support at the start of 1945 already economy-wise. Nazi Germany actually nearly went bankrupt *before the war started* because its rapid re-armament led to such a huge trade deficit no foreign bank accepted any more payments in Reichsmarks. The market was saturated with it so an economic collapse would have happened in November of 1939. The Reichsmark would have been a useless trade currency. When the war started with the attack on Poland in September 1939 Nazi Germany could switch to a war-time economy. No war? Boy are they facing trouble in late 1939. So any historian will tell you that Nazi Germany simply *had* to start the war in 1939. It was their only viable option left. You know this economic collapse would have happened even sooner but the economy of Nazi Germany was saved by two steroid injections namely in the form of the *seized gold reserves* from Austria (by the Anschluss in 1938) and those of Czechoslovakia (which Britain's Neville Chamberlain granted Hitler without a fight). Nazi Germany's economy could NOT sustain the war by itself as the war went on which is why they *ruthlessly pillaged the countries they occupied* . Pillaging was their very intention. Needless to say this made the nazi invaders extremely unpopular with the locals wherever they went and made them more and more enemies. So all these people talking about wonder weapons and alternate scenarios know nothing. Without the *economy* to sustain a long war of attrition a country *will lose* . Nazi Germany could only pillage its way for so long. And without enough stocks of strategic minerals? Doomed. Here's are two very important facts of WWII. 1. The Allies had *five times the amount of aluminum the Axis had. If you don't have the aluminum what exactly are you going to build the planes with? Birch wood? The Allies produced 5,104,697 tons of aluminum. The Axis produced. 1,099,150 tons. 2. The Allies controlled 90%(!!) of the (then) world oil reserves. At the outbreak of the war, Germany’s stockpiles of fuel consisted of a total of 15 million barrels. The campaigns in Norway, Holland, Belgium, and France added another 5 million barrels in booty. Romania’s exports to Germany increased to 13 million barrels by 1941, a level that was essentially maintained through 1942 and 1943.7 Although the exports were almost half of Romania’s total production, they were considerably less than the Germans expected. One reason for the shortfall was that the Romanian fields were being depleted. There were other reasons as well why the Romanians failed to increase their shipments. Foremost among these was Germany’s inability to make all of its promised deliveries of coal and other products to Romania. Yet a High Command study in May of 1941 noted that with monthly military requirements for 7.25 million barrels and imports and home production of only 5.35 million barrels, German stocks would be exhausted by August 1941. The severe shortfall could only be made up with petroleum from Russia. The need to provide the lacking 1.9 million barrels per month and the urgency to gain possession of the Russian oil fields in the Caucasus mountains, together with Ukrainian grain and Donets coal, were thus prime elements in the German decision to invade the Soviet Union in June 1941. What about the oil reserves the Soviets had? Prior to the Russian campaign, Maikop produced 19 million barrels annually, Grozny 32 million barrels, and Baku 170 million barrels. So that's 221 million barrels of oil annually. Meanwhile Nazi Germany only had 15 million barrels themselves, another 5 million in booty and 13 million from Romania. Yes, the Soviets had access to a lot more quantities of oil Nazi Germany had. Nazi Germany has 33.4 million tons of crude oil. Great Britain has 90.8 millon tons of crude oil. (almost three times what the Germans have) The Soviet Union has 110.6 million tons of crude oil. (almost four times) The USA has 833.2 million tons (!!) of crude oil (25 times more...) Fascist Italy has 2,3 million tons. Imperial Japan has 5,2 million tons. Hungary has 3,1 million tons. Romania has 25 million tons (which is why Romanian oil was so important to Germany). The bottom line is: *How can Nazi Germany prolong the war with its lacking economy surviving by ruthless pillaging, its huge lack of natural resources (except coal) and above all its small oil reserves compared to the Britain and the USSR never mind the oceans of oil the USA has. "If the war in Europe had gone into 1946" NOT going to happen for the reasons I provided you with.
Waaaay back when I used to play War Thunder I managed to grind my way to getting an Me262, which pretty much immediately tarnished its reputation in my eyes. The game of course didn't model the full list of flaws that you've just made me aware of in this video. But I did notice that it required quite a lot of runway before it could take off. And while its top speed was indeed *very* fast, it took a long time to accelerate up to that top speed, and all of that speed was very quickly lost the moment I tried to make any turns. By the way I'm coming here directly from LazorPig's video 'People you should subscribe to who aren't me.', in which his pitch for you was so compelling that you became the first youtube channel that I ever subscribed to before watching even a single video. I've only just started my binge of all the videos on your channel, but so far I'm not regretting my decision.
For reasons I don't understand, Iowa State University had a disassembled jet engine from a Me-262. I was shocked when I looked closely at the turbine. The quality of the aluminum alloy from a stator(at least I hope it was a stator) had very visible grain boundaries that made it look like quite inhomogeneous. I can only imagine a rotor like that spinning itself apart. It looked nothing like a modern aluminum rotor in a German turbopump.
listening at that litany of build quality issues36:16[when discussing the mountain factories] was making me think it was a Soviet factory for just a minute there. "They had slave labor there though." "That still doesn't make it easier to tell the diff between the two there, bub!"
Except they weren't - they raised the Critical Mach Number by .03 - about 18 mph. And speeds in that range could only be reached in a fairly steep dive from a high altitude. (And once you did, you lost pitch control, the nose tucked, and if it wasn't a very warm day at about 15,000', you made a smoking hole in the ground.) In level flight, you just weren't going to get anywhere fast enough to get into that region. The facts are that the P-80A had better control at Mach Numbers above 0.8 - out through Mach 0.86 - but was placarded lower because of the possibility of Aileron Buzz, which could eventually lead to structural problems.
@4353HUNVRTNG Except that the explanation is utterly wrong and nothing but a lie. Anyone who understands the slightest little thing about center of lift and center of gravity, and takes a moment to think about the silliness of the argument for a few seconds, will easily know why. And anyone who knows the slightest bit about aircraft designs knows how utterly stupid and nonsensical the arguments brought up in this video are. The Me 262 was originally meant to use BMW engines but development of these was delayed so they decided to use much heavier Junkers Jumo engines instead. Using heavier engines means more weight towards in the front! This means the center of lift needed to be moved FORWARD to balance out the plane. I repeat: The center of gravity moved FORWARD due to the heavier engines, so the center of lift had to be moved FORWARD, not aft!!! How does one most easily move the center of lift forward without redesigning the entire airframe? - By REDUCING wing sweep! Yes you read that right, by reducing wing sweep not by increasing it! And that is exactly what the Messerschmitt engineers did, they REDUCED wing sweep of the Me 262 to accommodate the heavier engines! The original design feature wings with HIGHER wing sweep and it is in fact very well documented that the engineers designing the Me 262 fully understood the advantage of wing sweep at higher speeds as some of them are the people who previously published research on exactly this topic of wing sweep. They also designed the rocket powered Me 163 with swept wings as well and proposed designs of high speed variants of the Me 262 well before it went into production. This is what the facts are and they are fairly easily verifiable. This video is wrong on so many accounts and full of misrepresentations and straight out lies.
What, no mention of the control cones in the engine exhaust breaking free, suddenly blocking off the thrust from one engine, giving the the plane a really exciting ride for a short time for a MAYBE conscious pre-cadaver/smear on the autobahn? This plane was a huge experiment that contained all sorts of operational and control principles which pilots had NEVER encountered before, far beyond things like the P-38 compression issue, for one.
As an American I now declare the HardThrasher RU-vid channel the official RU-vid channel of the United Kingdom. At least as far as my country is concerned. Seriously most of us can't point out Wales or Scotland on a map and believe the entirety of the UK is England.
Superb presentation. The brief mention of the 262's vulnerabilities taking off and landing reminded me of reading about allied pilots indicating they could suppress the jets by monitoring their airfields. To them the 262 was not particularly worrisome.
I would like to add to the story of the Me 210. The Hungarian version of the 210, the Ca-1 underwent some minor modifications (lengthened fuselage, a little fine-tuning, DB 605 engines, different armament, etc.) and turned out to be a surprisingly decent plane.
The Me 210 became the Me 310 and then the Me 410 which finally didn't suck too badly. The Germans still had no gas, ran out of troops, and....... LOST.
Yes, the 210 - bad. 410 - now we’re talking. But…yeah, too little, too late. An argument may be made the 410 outshined the 262. I’m also of the opinion the 410 was quite attractive in the masculine sense, as was the FW-189.
Still it effortlessly took down fortresses under 10 to one adverse odds against p51s in what was close to complete air denial.. If thats shit, it's some damn good shit
@@xycap8351 They were built by slaves, unwillingly, leaving alien objects in the works at every available opportunity. The paintjobs got progressively worse and worse because well, they didn't have any paint left. The engines ended up only good for a quick trip down to the shops. The cannons? Awesome but not enough of either them nor the ammunition. The kill ratio was good at first but only because no-one knew anything about them. As soo as it became common knowledge that they were terribly vulnerable during both landing AND takeoff then it was only a matter of finding out WHERE and then going and obliterating the few operational machines that they HAD!! Apart from that they were good...
Udet is the Ultimate Fighter Jock: "They don't earn MORE, they just earn it FASTER!" Speer's 'autobiography' also gave interesting insights into how the rats were fleeing the ship and moving intellectual and production property to 'neutral' countries well before Gotterdammerung.
You are wrong, the 262 was so good it is actually what the Americans based the SR-71 off, they just put a funny looking body on it to hide the fact it was just a 262! Much like every weapon Germany made between 1935-1945 they were far more advanced than anything the Allies ever made and were so advanced they actually are still unmatched to this day, if Ukraine had Tiger 2's the war would long be over. I also have to defend the ME-210 it Could at least take off and crash when it had weapons onboard... that is a whole heap more than the Breda BA.88 could even imagine doing...
@@m26pershing98 the world is a scary place these days. :( i mean of course it was a joke.. we all know it was the Aliens or the Egyptians, or what ever the History channel is dreaming up next.
On the subject of “it could have turned the tide of the war”: all of the people who like to say this seem to forget that if the war had been going better for Germany in 1945, then on August 6, Col. Paul Tibbets would have turned Berlin into a smoking, radioactive crater and that would have been the end of that.
Truman and LeMay discussed this possibility, and concluded that if the nuclear bomb was available earlier or Germany was still fighting by the time it was ready, the risks and difficulties were too high for the benefits of nuking Germany, as by that point there was no undamaged target left in Germany to bomb, in addition to the required infrastructure to be built in Britain for the B-29. The British post-war (in 1950s) did a study on the required nuclear weapons to inflict the same damage done by Bomber Command and concluded that it would take 400+ bombs, an unfeasible number even if the US, Britain and Canada started Uranium and Plutonium production at maximum capacity in 1944. They concluded that the nuclear weapon was not a war winning wonder weapon and that normal bombs and incendiary bombs would do more overall damage as the rebuilding, disarming of unexploded bombs, treatment of casualties and firefighting would take longer than in the case of nuclear bombs, which would drag more resources from the Germans.
@@alexsv1938It would have been used anyway, too hard to explain not using it to the public. Then there's the shock and awe factor, which even the firebombing of Tokyo hadn't delivered. I doubt that is dependent on hitting an undamaged target. There were Japanese Generals who argued Hiroshima wasn't actually worse than what the Americans were already doing, so Japan could fight on, but they were overruled.
@@robertthweatt1900A true statement, one which I wish the anti-nuke activists of today would contemplate. Also, didn’t FatMan use the last of the fissile material we had on hand, or was Oak Ridge on task to make more for future ‘optional’ use? Obviously, we were able to produce more, but I thought it was a bit of a gamble Japan would surrender after Nagasaki, because we didn’t have a third bomb ready for another nuclear mission. Anyone?
@@ronjon7942 The U-235 gun type bombs required a lot of material, essentially all of the stock. The implosion type used for the Plutonium weapons required a lot less fissile material, but the reactor 'manufacture' and extraction meant that there was little more available until some months had gone by, only 1 more bangs worth, I beleive
One other thing to mention here, about the "OK it was good at flying fast in a straight line bit". Yes it could, by WWII standards, but so could the Gloster Meteor F3 (also operational in WWII, and indeed sent to the continent); after they lengthened the engine nacelles, that was knocking on the door of 500mph, with engines that actually worked, and worked for a decent period of time. The F4, which came shortly afterwards, was knocking on the door of 600mph. So, the imperious speed advantage would have been marginal in late '44/early '45, and wiped out entirely by November 1945. By which time, of course, the De Havilland Vampire was also in service. Wehraboos - "Yebbut the P.1101"... It never flew, lads, and if it had it probably would have blown up or folded in on itself.
I have a question: What is the counterpart for Wehraboo when the notoriously butthurt Brits put down inventions, introductions, and improvements of technology made by other nations? It is amazing how incapable Brits, Muricans, the French also, and Russians can be when they are clearly not the first, the best etc. It almost feels like a reflex of whataboutism consisting of mental fish and chips and other imtellectual diarrhea. People always bitch about the Krauts' nationalism but Brits, Muricans are even worse.
Love it that they were thinking of variants before they had anything that could fly Whereas the British built a Mosquito to make best use of what was around, found it was good and then applied it to about every aspect of air warfare Shows that the most complex tech is not always the best engineering
The kill ratio was the result of lack of fuel, lack of pilots, and most aircraft NOT performing combat sorties. The right quesiton is, how many pilots did Luftwaffe lose to score these 540 kills? If less than 200, then it was a pretty good result, vs western allies - an excellent result. But that's really it. It had no chance to change anything.
6:26 Very true. The Heinkel 178 could only manage 372 mph, barely faster thank a Mk.I Spitfire. In contrast, the Gloster E.28/39 managed 466 mph, faster than every fighter in the world at the time, and would later push this to over 500 mph. It also had provision for four .303 Brownings, so actually had some combat potential, despite its small size.
Given the content of this video, one would assume that the Me262 and E28/39 occupied the same position in the aircraft development cycle. The E28/39 got a sequel though. It was also better made. Because it wasn't made by people with a vested interest in it failing, who were also being tortured while they built it. Mind you, I have heard some toe curling stuff about Eton, so who knows, really.
Another excellent video to add to your collection. Thank you again Lord HardThrasher. Whenever I think back to all those documentaries I used to watch on the so called history channel. And the narrator would always finish off with something on the line of “had the war lasted until 1946. The nazis would have developed more advanced weapons such as the TA-152 or ME-262, enabling them to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat”. And I just think, what utter cobblers. Had the nazis built more TA-152s and ME-262s the allies would have simply stepped up production of their more advanced fighter designs. For the Americans the P-51H and the British the Supermarine Spiteful. Both far outclassed the TA-152 in all aspects. As for the 262. Considering the allies outnumbered them 10 000 to 1, your chances of bumping into an honest politician outweighed your chances of encountering a 262.
So true. The SuperProps just on the horizon were drooling to be Nazi killers, and had the war lasted til 46, America would have been license building Meteors by the thousands along with the Brits, if not our own jets. With the utter destruction of the German landscape, and the utter disconnect and disregard for the German populace by the elites (hmmm, sounds somehow familiar, where oh where…oh yes, here, now), I’m surprised the Reich lasted til 45, and still managed to command loyalty.
one of my favourite IL-2: 1946 moments was landing a high-deflection shot from one of those onto a P-47 on some multiplayer server. the other pilot complimented me
Great article! I love the tongue-in-cheek presentation and the sources at the end. Thanks for putting straight everything I've ever read about the Me262. The reality is more believable than the History Channel stuff.
There used to be a gent who reliably showed up to any RU-vid video which mentioned the 262 or its engines to rant about how the meteor (which he called the MEATBOX, caps mandatory) was a death trap and all allied jet engines were crap. I wonder what happened to him?
I think I know who you're on about. He was kinda being a menace but I hit him with with a crazy counterargument and his account was deleted the next time I checked the comments.
@@HardThrasher Sounds about right. He replied to one of my comments three minutes ago about how the Me163 was a great aircraft and how the "meatbox only killed British pilots!!!!!!!!!"
Actually, the Me262 is the best fighter of the war, it was so good and so fast that hardly any Allied pilots ever saw one. (this is a joke, please read it a second time)
What really annoys me about the whole "thing that could have won the war" meme is that the Germans were chronically short on fuel from mid 1942 and onwards, and even before that their fuel reserves were dwindling at an alarming rate. And even the synthetic fuel plants consumed vast quantities of coal, which they also developed a shortage of. It's part of the reason their pilot training became so comically accelerated, as they could hardly allocate any fuel for training flights. In contrast the Americans had a seemingly bottomless supply of oil and refining capacity, far beyond reach of axis bombing. If any weapon system was going to change the outcome of the war then it would realistically have to be available in meaningful numbers during 1941 at the latest, before the Red Army started getting its act together, and before the Americans got seriously involved. As it happens none of these much touted wonder weapons came anywhere close to that. At best, all they could ever do was prolong the war, but most of these poorly thought out and rushed programs were nothing but a huge waste of very finite resources which probably accelerated their demise.
Wëhräböö experts rarely _mention_ the master race of the thousand year reich failing to plan for naval blockade and not acquiring sufficient stockpiles of strategic materials for their take on anybody pan-conquest. They gush over wündër equipment like the strategically precious and in short supply Tungsten cores in armour piercing shells and Porsche’s gasoline engine-electric drive heavy Tiger tank versions requiring massive current carrying monstrously heavy duty strategically precious and in short supply copper cabling! It must have annoyed them a little bit?
The British and Americans were also working on jet designs going back to early 1930s. The mistake the Nazis made was to introduce it before it was ready. it’s scored some dramatic successes, but the American soon learn how to deal with it with a much better design p51 which had a better turning radius, better handling, and far far more reliable.
To summarize, the Me 262's biggest flaw was that it had the unfortunate fate of being developed in 1940s Germany. The Third Reich was such a kleptocratic mess that it begot any meaningful development for the aircraft. It seems to have been a solid design on paper, had it and the Jumo 004 been built to proper standards, it likely would have been a fine fighter for its time. But of course, it was a half-baked prototype, most examples of which were manufactured with slave labor, rushed into frontline service by a regime desperately clinging to power in the face of a war they had absolutely no chance of winning. It's kind of sad really, had Germany in the mid 20th century not been run by sycophants that dragged the country into an unnecessary war, they probably could have been at the forefront of aerospace development, with a thriving domestic aviation industry to this day.
You're wrong on multiple accounts and there are far too many inaccuracies to point out, so I'll merely do one: During the development of the venerable F-86 Sabre, NAA decided they needed leading edge slats for better low speed stability - primarily for takeoff and landing, this later also improved its low speed performance. The system they created didn't work very well, so instead they went over to the captured Me262 they had, removed the leading edge slat system from it, and mounted it on their prototype. And suddenly, their aircraft had a reliable and functional leading edge slat system. Quite a good design feature from a "rubbish plane" that was "good for nothing", which helped THE best Korean War gunfighter become what it was. Oh and by the way, the modern revolver cannons like ADENs and DEFAs, or the single-barreled 20mm fast firing cannons of the US? Yeah, they were also based off a german prototype.
Ok, so the ADEN was based on the Mk213, itself a development of the Hispano cannons, a joint Swiss-Spanish design. The Mk213 wasn't fitted to the 262, there being almost none made. Leading edge anti stall slats were also a pre war invention, most famousy on the 109, but hardly radical technology, and it's worth saying the As and Es, and indeed the Canadian versions didn't have them.
@@HardThrasher I made no mention of the Mauser 213 being fitted to the 262, the Bf110 was its testbed. It was simply yet another german project in development at the time that sparked Allied interest after the war. Not sure where you're getting the information that it is based on a Hispano cannon, as the book "German weapons of WW2" doesn't have that. Leading edge slats were nothing new, Handley-Page patented them long before WW2 came around. However, the fact that NAA simply walked over to their captured 262 and removed its leading edge slat system to use on their prototype, is the interesting part. Not many nations other than germany used leading edge slats in their warbirds and they're now extremely common, being present on pretty much every airliner and military aircraft in one form or another. Clearly, germany was doing a lot of things right - Operation Paperclip and its russian equivalent prove this.
I think what you're saying is that Germany did have technology that the Allies subsequently used - which is fair. My point is, that's often exaggerated and the 262 is an example of supposedly superior Nazi kit which was, in fact, rubbish.
Lets see, a new wonder weapon that in it's first surprise 'operational' sortie fails to shoot down an unarmed photo recce bomber in a long engagement may not be that much of a wonder?
U.S.S. Monitor didn't destroy shit either in its first engagement and was lost at sea later. Doesn't make the design less revolutionary or ineffective. Anything outside of HMS Warrior in the Royal Navy would have been taking a massive risk going against it, flaws and all.
@@alexyoon-sungcucina7895 The issues with the Me262 were fundamental. It was designed for speed, and could not effectively engage in a turning fight. It did not greatly improve over existing german designs, never mind allied designs. Of other interest, Monitor was a dead end in warship design.
@@johnculver2519 While it certainly had issues and turn radius was one of them, I'm not really sure that makes it garbage. The biplane had superior maneuverability. WWII ended its days. Everyone saw the writing on the wall regarding the jet. That one of the first operational iterations, built by a nation whose industrial and resource base was collapsing, had flaws, I don't think is that big a strike against it. The interceptor vs. dogfighter has been a distinction that has was around for awhile, even in WWII. As for the Monitor, despite its flaws, no one argues that it was complete crap. The big gun turret concept was innovative. It did usher in a new age. Lost Cause idiots trumpet the Merrimack, which aside from the first day at Hampton Roads, accomplished the great feats of being unable to sink a ship that sank itself thanks to being barely seaworthy and a hazard to its own crew as well as being blown up in harbor. Still, I don't think any serious student of naval history would write it off as garbage, the Monitor neither. I dunno, it seems the issue with the 262 for HardThrasher seems more to do with its Wehraboo fanbase and regime which birthed it, rather than wholly the context of its development from an engineering and military standpoint. Now those are fair things to take issue with, but I think that is a separate issue from its design.
@@alexyoon-sungcucina7895but Monitor went against Virginia, another ironclad, if Me-262 went against P-80 shooting star at its comparable performance (later variant) then sure you got proportional excuse
@@HardThrasher True. And there's no room under the fuselage either. If the wings had been stronger, then wingtip tanks like on some post-war US jets might've been an option.
I'm truelly suprised that my favourite history podcast and you gave basically same account of the development of me262 within like 2 weeks from eachother- and not even speaking same language! But obvioulsy your version is far more entertaining to listen to. Well done!
@@sangomasmith "podcast wojenne historie" (in polish "war stories podcast") made by two polish historians which discuss topics they learned from their own reaserch in archives, directly from someone who did that, or from books that are very in depth on the topic. Sadly for you it's in Polish.
