@@Robert399 I can't say with 100% certainty because I haven't done tests or seen comparisons myself, but I'd imagine they'd be very similar (maybe a slight increase in protection for brigandine because there's fabric over the metal), but I think lamellar would be less protective because they're laced instead of riveted.
@@Robert399 Roughly the same, they are both made of small plates and fabrics. We would have to compare two specific pieces if we wanted to do a less vague assessment though.
Armour being supported from the waist is consistent with how you wear a larger backpack- it feels odd at first but it is so much more comfortable over time and slows greater freedom of movement.
French guild regulations and ordinances stipulated that brigandines should be proof against crossbow bolts and they should be tested by being shot at with a crossbow much like breastplates were later proofed by being shot at with a musket or a pistol i.e. these things are pretty proof against arrows and bolts.
@@scholagladiatoria It's a source from the Armourers in Angers, dated to 1448. The transcription here isn't mine, so no credit to me for it: "They will make white harnesses for men-at-arms fully proof tested, which is to say to crossbows with windlass, or at least half proven, which is defined to be from levered crossbows and shots from a bow, and however it strikes. The brigandiers [brigandine makers] will be held like this to make brigandines... the heaviest of up to 26 to 27lb, will be proof tested against crossbows with windlass, and stamped with 2 makers marks, and the lightest of 18 to 20lb, tested as above against a crossbow with a levered hook, stamped with 1 makers mark" It's interesting to note that the brigandines are held to the same standard as the cuirasses
@pel thoron People have this weird idea that quality control did not exist in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. In fact most cities required all armour to be inspected by proofers and there were heavy punishments for cheating. One crap shipment of breastplates, or brigandines could ruin the reputation of an armour making centre. The guys over at Cap and Ball tested lamellar armour against hand guns, wheel lock pistols and muskets. Only the muskets achieved killing wounds which is not surprising since they output about two orders of magnitude more kinetic energy than a 160 lb war bow or the (approximately) equivalent war crossbow of about 500-600 lb. However, even a wheel lock pistol outputs at least an order of magnitude more energy than any bow and it did not even manage to penetrate lamellar. Brigandines were tough as hell and would be my 2nd choice right after a properly articulating breast and backplate set for raw protection value. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-OSxFY917UH8.html
A guy that made fretboard with movable and replaceable frets was inspired by lego. It's truly a miraculous toy lol Oh, and his 6 yo son invented one made with legos so they built an actual learning tool together too >
@@scholagladiatoria Oh, you too always wanted them as a kid super badly, but your parents were super poor, but later on in life you realised that long story short the issue wasn't poverty but being stingy, so it still haunts your memories to this day so it is always the first thing you think about? I knew there more of us out there!
I imagine that this would be a common dilemma for soldiers during a siege. Slim rations, possibly diarrhea, losing weight and the armor doesn't fit so well anymore.
I like the outside videos because you do not pace your normal "2-steps-towards-the-camera-then-2-steps-away-from-the-camera" over and over and over again like you do indoors! :) Great content also ofc!
Is that pacing annoying? A lot of video makers do random framing changes, which is proven to keep viewers watching for longer. I actually wonder whether my pacing achieves a similar thing without the need for editing!
@@scholagladiatoria the problem is that once someone notices the pacing it becomes so incredibly distracting. I have often started to count the pacing instead of listening to the things you speak about. Just in case you are wondering - your average pacing is about 60 “2 steps forward-2 steps back loops“ / video. :) Edit - it is like some people who bounces their leg up and down whenever they are sitting down. It comes across as a nervous tick and can be very distracting once you start noticing it.
@@scholagladiatoria Almost any kind of movement is A Good Thing in a video. I think what you want to do is do it more randomly. Some professional speakers synch their movements to the words they emphasize as they speak but that can come off as robotic (something I don't believe you'll ever do), and monotonous movement is as bad as no movement. Just some thoughts.
That explanation of the wasp-waisted shape taking pressure off the shoulders hasn't been mentioned by most of the other RU-vidrs. Thank you for this excellent video.
:D It may mean something like: "Fighting wear" or "Fightingine" "Brig" seems to mean something like "power" or "strength" in some Celtic languages. Possibly a loanword that got into Italian, which then evolved into words for Brigand, Brigandine... and even Brigade (a blob of fighting men).
@@RyanRyzzo "Brigand" is a french word that used to mean "part of a brigade" as in "part of a group of soldiers", so : a soldier. In short, a brigandine means "something worn by a soldier". The word "brigand" later evolved to mean "bandit" as brigades of brigandine-wearing brigands pillaged the Kingdom of France whenever they weren't being employed. And we still use it that way to this day. And yes it seems to come from the italian "Brigante" which had the same meaning. Which itself comes from the latin "briga" (which means "to fight").
To think that Dungeons and Dragons (and most RPGs after it) rank brigandine _below_ chain mail in protection, when it clearly should be at the same level as plate mail.
To be fair, D&D assumes "chain mail" to be a full set of harness, with sleeves and trousers, not just the torso. The 5th ed. PHB doesn't have a "brigandine" on the armour list but you can just use "breastplate", "half-plate", or "full-plate" depending on what accessories you're adding to the torso harness.
I got myself a coat of plates replicated after a Find from the massgraves of Visby. The Platemaker made it absolutely clear that I should take my measurements with everything I want to wear beneath. I am glad he did, because now it fits even on my Spes AP Jacket. I never thought there was any need for your video, but I think it was very good for us all that you did. Thanks a lot. 😊👍
One additional thing to mention about it opening to the front, is the ability to simply open it up to cool off. I've seen US soldiers open up the older body armor when relaxing at ranges, taking naps when out in the field and still being able to quickly get ready when the need arises. I would assume those soldiers and knights would have done the same. Whereas with plate, you would need someone to assist you every time.
considering most casualties for cuirassiers in the napoleonic wars (according to an austrian source i read a while back, i forgot the exact source tho) were due to over heating (probably heat stroke preventing active partisipation in an individual battle), i imagine this is quite an important advantage, atleast for scouts and regular infantry...
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Jason Kingsley on Modern History TV did a test on a hot day in full harness, and after 20-30 minutes of just riding around not even fighting, he was feeling the beginning of heat stress. If a man in plate needs an assistant to don/doff his armour, that's two guys who are busy instead of ready to fight. If half a company of knights want to cool off, then you just lost a large percent of a force. Just adding to what you are saying Solar 👍
My first thought was that bringing in the waist would allow more of the weight of the armour to be carried on the hips rather than on the shoulders, but you covered that just before the 13 minute mark!
The look and materials have changed but armor sizing and layout hasn't changed much over the years. We still stop at our natural waist, even today, for the same reasons they did then. We also want it tighter, rather than loose, for similar reasons. If you look at modern plate carriers the cumberbund is often reinforced, especially on larger plate carriers, so it makes a solid loop. Which helps to distribute weight. Although on the larger carriers that can reduced mobility, similar to s full brest plate. So now lightweight carriers are growing in popularity. However they don't usually have the rigidity needed for support. This is why sometimes the lightweight plate carriers tend to be more uncomfortable in the shoulders than the heavy duty plate carriers. This usually leads to people tightening their cumberbunds even more making light carriers even more uncomfortable. However some more recent lightweight designs have plastic or metal reinforcements in the cumberbund to add back that rigidity that was lost when they reduced the bulk. Which gives it the support of the heavy duty carriers without the bulk. This is usually the ultimate in Comfort. Lightweight and rigid while still remaining flexible similar to a brigandine.
Flak vests/jackets (essentially a kevlar gambeson) from the late cold war/single digit years of the 21st century however, are the worst. This because they don't have the rigidity of plate carriers while having almost the same weight, and are simultaneously too rigid to be tightened in with a belt, thus nullifying every attempt at ergonomic weight distribution in the design of the webbing, backpack weight offset belts or other gear details...
@@SonsOfLorgar In my experience i could actually breath in a flak jacket, tightening anything around the waist was just uncomfortable. Of course, I was humping ALICE high on the shoulders, damaging the nerves a bit. Was an 0311 btw, in a victor unit.
Wow, those pauldrons and that arm armour looks amazing! I'd love to see more of it, I don't remember you showing them before. Keep up with the amazing videos!
I was initially a little surprised to see the direction of overlap at the front of the brigandine. However, it is clearly authentic as shown in the contemporary illustrations you have used. As a former fencer, I automatically think of right hand and right foot forward and would therefore want the right front panel to overlap the left front panel to reduce the risk of a weapon slipping in through the gap. However, I guess that fighting with either a shield or with a 2 handed pole arm, much of the time your left shoulder and left foot would be forward in which case left front overlapping makes sense. It looks like a nice piece of kit.
It is interesting to note that brigandines seem extremely uncommon in the HRE in the 15th century, especially the german parts. This also goes for areas influenced a lot by the HRE, for example scandinavia. Brigandines are hardly ever depicted there (in fact, I have yet to stumble across one) and the very very scant references to them when they are used suggests import from Italy, but even this is exceedingly rare. There can be many guesses as to why. My personal speculation is that germany already had an established munitions breastplate industry which either actively suppressed brigandine making (since guilds can be very competitive) or by its mere existence just didn't give any need for the brigandines to exist. From the second half of the 15th century we already have a bunch of german munitions breastplates, and while barely any survive from the first half of the century the art depicts quite a few of them on infantrymen as well. Regardless of what the actual reason is the sources point to it being extremely rare bordering to nonexistent there, which definitely should be kept in mind. They're very common in flemish lands, especially in burgundy and the french lowlands, but this doesn't carry over to germany... I should also throw in an edit. A lot of french and flemish art depict covered breastplates rather than brigandines on men-at-arms. It's a common mistake to assume that everything fabric-covered with a dotted pattern must be depicting brigandines (one I am guilty of myself). One can see clear cases of this in more detailed art, where the rivet patterns on the brigandines are distinguishable from the different patterns on the textile covered breastplates/cuirasses.
@Kaiser Franz von Lappen der 2. it'll give it a look. Emperor Maximilian however is one of the few germans we have records of owning a brigandine. Which is not terribly surprising considering his ties with Burgundy and the fact that he owned lots of armour in general.
@Kaiser Franz von Lappen der 2. Oh right, those. I have seen them before, I must have searched for the wrong thing. But yes I wouldn't put much trust in those depictions. Most of them are 'heroic' in style and do not depict contemporary armour.
@Kaiser Franz von Lappen der 2. WTH is that "breastplate" on the 3. to the right? Look kinda like the armorer was a time traveler that took inspiration from a tiger tank XD.
@@scholagladiatoria perhaps, but in a sense, it is also the least amount of material overall for great level of protection, it allows a lot of personal design (cheaper than plate perhaps). And in the end, whatever the reason, it is just badass! Order a new one by the way, we all know you want to! :P
I must admit that I do think about ordering another one in a different style - perhaps one optimised to go with the rest of my plate armour. And not black, but some horrific gaudy colour combo.
I've always wondered how the repair effectiveness and maintenance is with brigandines. If a plate assembly is damaged so is the fabric (or leather?) covering. Would one remove the rivets and damaged plates and then have a cloth patch sewn over the damaged fabric then reassembled?
I sadly don't have a source for this other than observation of materials in use, but I believe the leather or fabric (especially fabric) could be patched or resewn fairly easily, and would be done prior to riveting on the new plate. There's also a decent chance the damage could be from blunt force (hammers, maces, kicked by a mule, etc.) so the fabric wouldn't take so much damage itself, even if the backing plates were bent out of shape or the rivets torn out. Like the later buff coats I think it was expected for the outer layer of a brigandine to be fairly sacrificial, being cheap enough to simply be replaced when worn out and the steel plates reused on the new suit. Individual plates would likely be fairly cheap to order from a decent blacksmith, so the big expense would be the initial buy of the unit, then parts would be replaced as they wear/break (comparisons to car ownership are apt).
I don’t know if this was ever done, but making the fabric out of many smaller segments stitched together could make it easier to replace certain sections with out disturbing others. It would also make sense since looms weren’t all that big.
Damn it... I know I read an account somewhere that common soldiers were forced to repair their armor on their own, implying that it was possible but uncommon. I know it was connected to brigandine though. That's the problem with studying history for pleasure, rather than academic pursuits; you don't make notes of what you find where.
It's a fortunate coincidence that I'm listening to this video while working on the details of a fantasy character design that wears a sort of hybrid cuirass/lorica segmentata right at the stage where I can adjust the waistline of the armor.
I'd love to see a more in depth discussion on fashion and armor design. How civilian dress influenced armor, how armor influenced casual clothing, etc. I'm fascinated by the idea of certain concessions made in the name of looking swag on the battlefield.
Don't know how I missed this video last month. Very I informative as usual . I've become very interested in the brigindine recently so excellent timing. 👍✌
Just put an internal belt in it. Put small loops of leather around the rivets and run a belt through them. Thats a relatively easy fix that won't be visible from the outside and I bet it was a common practice in the past.
It raises me a question, maybe the pigeon shape you talked about would not only allow for more movement, but also creating a space for more padding in the ribcage and sternum, where you would need more to protect the bones and vitals.
If Matt doesn't have a PhD he should. His knowledge is incredible and his research is well done. Lots of practical knowledge, too. I've been well schooled. Thank you. 😊
My very first thought was, “Matt’s honesty comes back to bite him” (i.e., actually giving an accurate waist measurement, without caring what anyone thinks of it). :)
I'm kind of warming up to the look of the brigandine lately, it really is pretty cool looking, especially with that black plate harness, looking very slick Matt!
Soldiers today still struggle with armor weight distribution, specifically related to the ratio of weight on the shoulders to hips. One of the best things you can do for your own endurance and long term spinal health while wearing armor is to tightening it down on your waist as much as possible so the weight distributes itself more to your hips. Would a hefty belt solve your problem by chance? Perhaps thats a bit anachronistic, but I cant imagine there wasn't the odd unfortunate man at arms who had to work around sub-optimal armor fitting.
It's actually wouldn't be anachronistic, you have to keep a sword, dagger, or whatever choice of sidearm somewhere. So, most would have worn a belt anyway, not just the unfortunate man-at-arms. And you're definitely right about today, when I was in the Marines everything had to be worn tight or it would be on your shoulders. Had my pack pop loose near the end of a hike and was mostly carrying it on my shoulders, was way easier before that happened...
@@jamesfigler6576 Oh yes, of course, the sword belt. He'd even be justified in a pretty wide one, I'd wager. I feel you on the packs though, dd. The army provided all many of new and artistic shapes for my spine to take during my term.
I would love to see the video of you taking that to a seamstress to have it altered. The blank/shocked look on their face OR the blank/shocked look on your face as they start pulling out a grinder and box of rivets would be priceless.
I wonder if anyone ever put small metal plates on the leather straps prevent them being cut. Probably not now that I think about it; if you're getting repeatedly slashed down the middle then you've got bigger problems to worry about.
The wasp waisted shadow is really interesting. As well as reenactment I also spend a lot of time lifting weights. Compressing your gut is really helpful - which is why weightlifters use belts- it takes strain of the back and makes you more stable. In the art their armour looks tighter than it needs to be for mobility - it looks like it's actively constricting their waists. I wonder if it's also to reduce back again and provide strength and stability.
Is brigandine that buckles at the side common or even historically accurate at all? It seems like it wouldn't be that much harder to put on and it would be easier to get more overlap on the one side where it buckles. Which would be less of a weak point and a smaller one at that. Plus not right in the middle of your chest. I'm going to assume I'm some how wrong. :)
I would argue against side buckles not being that much harder to put on. I have a brigandine that buckles on the side, and it's extremely difficult for me to buckle those by myself. To the point that I usually just buckle them loosely and slip the whole thing over my head instead. Even though mine is a crappy non-historical model, I'm certain that the side placement and rigidity is a bad combo if you plan on doing it yourself. Having it just a little bit forwards would be a substantial improvement.
@@Eiterra Thanks for the input. I guess it is a concern. Granted maybe more historically accurate and higher quality brigandine might be easier to buckle yourself? Maybe, maybe not? However, you can do it right just with extreme effort? Would that be worth the extra protection to you?
@@arc0006 Interestingly, the higher status/quality historical examples tended to fasten on the back, not only because this afforded greater protection, but also the wearer of such higher status versions would expect to have attendants to help them arm.
Brigandine is believed to have developed around the 13th century or earlier from East Asia, and was brought over to Europe by the Mongol invasions. The first European kingdoms that used brigandine were those in Eastern Europe.
I remember Lindybeige getting a suit of plate armor made somewhat recently. I think I can speak for all of us when I say "Ir would be awesome to see Matt Easton, Lindybeige, Shad, Metatron, and Skallagrim together, in their best armor. Although, admittedly, I'm not sure what Skall is working with these days in terms of armor. I remember seeing him put on some decent armor some time ago.
I suspect that the medieval solution would be to make adjustments to the waist cinch strap, so that at the waist the overlap in front becomes more pronounced. Should be accompishable without altering plates, just re-affixing the belly/waist cinch slightly further from the buckle
I saw a thing on early 20th century army webbing - French and British, I can't remember if they were 1st or 2nd WW, where the being able to carry the weight on your waist made it so much more comfortable. Those lessons were learnt 500+ years ago.
a special request: can you please make a short video describing what the job of a Raider was in norse / scandinavian warfare middle ages? Also could you include or expand on what the term raider actually entails. thank you immensely I am aspiring researcher I watch your channel consistently for years
You could have someone move two bottom straps 5cm away from the middle and rivet it. Possibly leave the original strap and have second strap not to have hole left, or have them duplicate the flat rivets that are around the armor to mask it. You should get the same effect as you would get with a belt, you will still have extra overlapping, but it would be hidden.
I take it that the steel elements of the brigandine prevent from punching more holes into the leather strapping and simply “ratcheting” it tighter around the middle.
Matt. When you were tightening with the rope, it looked like the straps were starting to bind. You MIGHT still be able to get a tighter waist with an exterior belt by loosening the waist strap a good bit and the neighboring straps just a little.
Yeah, taking in a brigandine properly would take 1) punching out most or all of the rivets and sort the separated plates. 2) Take the cover apart at the seams 3) Take the cover in as desired and re sow it to the new measurements. 4) Re attatch the plates that still match their original holes to the reduced cover. 5) Reforge or replace those plates where the rivet holes didn't match the original holes in the reduced cover. OR, use the easier method: 1)Have a brand new cover made to the new measurements. 2) Separate the plates from the old cover. 3) Arrange the old plates on the back of the new cover and reforge or replace individual plates too big or the wrong shape to accomodate the new size. 4) Punch the rivet holes in the new cover so that the holes match the rearranged plates. 5) Rivet the old plates to the new cover and have a child apprentice wax or flax oil all of it as a preservative coating unless the customer has ordered tinned plates, then the tin is applied prior to riveting to both plates and rivets.
Yes, I want to hear more about this as well - assuming Matt knows or have sources about it. Brigandines isn't something most people think for Middle Eastern armour even though contemporary records from al-Qalqashandi on Mamluks and Ruy Gonzalez de Clavijo on Timurids stated Brigandines to be common
Hey Matt, how about a stylish silk sash instead of the downright pedestrian rope? I have to assume your problem was not entirely uncommon back in the day - it's not like everyone had bespoke kit. Surely many people were making do with ill fitting second hand.
Obviously people's body shapes play a part in what is and isn't possible with armor shapes and we do see a wide variety in the historical art as well. I don't want to imply that *all* brigandines were domed - some in art and surviving are flatter.
Shad doesn't really have a dome shaped body... or didn't, he's lost a bit of weight in the last several months. Moving to a rural property I suspect he'll slim down and tone up even more over the next year or so. May have to buy a new brigandine because his older one will be too big.
Shad’s brigandine is also a replica of a pattern that was made up mostly of regular rectangles. It’s the Chalkis type 2. What’s interesting is that it was found along side other brigandines that are more globe like.
@scholagladitoria This is great as I'm in the process of purchasing a full plate harness and have really been wondering about my measurements, especially because I'm going to start powerlifting and also to take into account my doublet/maille.
I literally have a brigandine from the same maker. I've worn heaps of different types of armour both of larp and replica quality and this is the most comfortable armour I've worn. I also have the same regret though. I also wish I had of been tighter with my measurements, especially around the waist
I'm puzzled by something - if you're also wearing a piece of plate on the chest, why the brigandine up above and the plate around the waist? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a solid breastplate higher up and the more flexible brigandine around the stomach and waist?
Why were the plates riveted on the inside instead on the outside of the fabric? Would it make it more difficult to push a blade through in between the plates? Or does it help to protect the steel from the elements? (even though there is more contact with saline sweat)
Having something on the outside means more points for weapon to hook and drag you, it exposes your weak points and it is less of glancing surface. Having them all on the inside means the slip points are more well hidden and there is more of glancing outer surface.
Mail sleeves, mail skirt, mail collar and a female waist? Another fascinating video. As I have the heroic physique of Sir John Falstaff, I would look rather more Pigeon Stomached than Pigeon Chested.
this is a great video matt, very informative and helpful. i have recently taken a great interest in 15th century fashion and armour. one question for you (if you see my comment) or anyone else reading this. where can i find a good arming doublet? i have had a small look around and i can find all kinds of gambesons but nothing like what i see more experienced (and better equipped) members of the community have. do you make them yourself or have them made alongside the armour? any help would be greatly appreciated as i am rather new to all this and still quite ignorant. i look forward to your next video.
Why aren't there any brigandine-plate hybrids? For example, you could probably have two thick and solid plate pieces for the pecs since that is a relatively large area with little motion. That would reduce the need for riveting many smaller plates. Other area with relatively less motion could also see larger pieces of brigandine plates. And further....were the plates of different thickness depending on the need and value for protection of specific areas? And why were brigandines riveted to leather rather than directly to mail? It seems much easier and more effective to use wire to fasten little plates to mail than to deal with leather and rivets.
I note the brigandine is really noisy when you're handling it, but much less so when you're wearing. Not sure how well you could sneak in it, but seems possible. The plate arm at the end is really noisy again, though.
A brigandine is nice, I guess. (Matt puts on arm armour.) YES! Now I'm getting it. Is it possible to replace the plates at the waist with plates that are a bit shorter?
What about moving towards the back the two lower buckle pins? This way you could have the same effect you get from the rope, and the steel plates will overlap so no problem on their side...
What about the Chalkis type 2 brigandine from around 1400? It’s basically made from rectangles with little regard for the waist. It’s form isn’t really shown in art except for the rivet pattern.
I forget the reason, but why are the straps at the front not a big safety concern? I remember you talked about it, but I can't recall which video it was in. So I am asking the silly question what stops an attacker from slicing your straps and stabbing you in between your now loose fitting armor? Because the brigandine looks awesome and I can't remember this part about it.
Matt, simple answer is eat more pies!!!, however failing that have you considered speaking to ASH who in my mind makes top end Brigs, I'm lucky enough to own one of his, perhaps he could make the alterations for you
Hi, you said it was made from carbon steel plates inside and could even get them tin plated to stop them rusting, but what is the outside part of the brigandine made from?
Were keepers (loops like on modern belts) not used to hold the tab ends of the straps flatter? It seems like they would get in the way a bit sticking out like that.
1) the size of the plates, lamellar *tends* to be smaller plates (although there are exceptions) 2) how they attach, lamellar tends to be attached plate to plate or to an internal material vias ties or chain links, while brigandine tends to be on the inside rivited to an external material.
