One more thing on the wheel pommel that i found quite useful wearing heavy steel gloves and a helmet: you will always know where your edge's going. You don't need to see it (and you can't in a fully enclosed visor) but you are most of the time can be sure of hitting with the edge. That will be vital for the combat i believe. And it's strangely omitted by modern hema-fighters sometimes where there a lot of hits done unintentionally with the flat.
Yes, and intentionally flat too, I just watched a cringe video today where almost all hits from both fighters were flat...it took soooo much to not comment.
At our club, flat hits don't count at all. My -sensei- teacher mentioned however these wheel pommels weren't always properly aligned with the edge in the past, so the crossguard was considered more important regarding edge alignment. And as a ball pommel is (a bit) more easy for changing stances and other movements, these have become a more popular. The ball pommel btw. suggests it should be gripped, in contrast to the disc pommel of Indian tulwars.
@@Ezyasnos That is interesting, I would love to see which swords were, and weren't, aligned with their wheel pommels: Rolan Warzecha's research suggests pommels could be aligned off-center as right- or lefthanded, to help edge-alignment. He hasn't said anything about wheel pommels, though.
It made me wonder if the "ice pick" style of holding rondel daggers was influenced by the use of these types of gauntlets making it more difficult to align a knife for a thrust with "sword grip".
Well, based on the unarmored treatises I've seen the ice-pick grip is also used heavily even without gauntlets, likely due to the optimal targets still being the face, throat and upper chest which are best attacked from above.
biomechanics as well stabbing down with the icepick grip uses the same muscle groups as you would with a downward strike from a full sized weapon very strong, much damage good
There's also the theory that when under stressful situations downward blows come far more naturally and aggressively than any others. Why not take advantage of human nature and utilise them?
I've heard someone claim that this is the reason that rondel daggers have, well, rondels. The large disks cover and protect the two parts of the hand that the mitten gauntlet doesn't.
I'm a fantasy comic artist and this channel gives me so much insight that helps my clothing, armour, and weapon designs feel more lived in and functional. The little things add so much value! Apart from a handful of unarmed martial arts I've only ever trained with Naginata in the Tendo Ryu style which has fairly different forms and footwork to HEMA forms that I've seen so it would be nice to get some practical demonstrations from an experienced HEMA practitioner in future. Love what you're doing Matt!
It feels like its been a while since we saw a longsword-related video, it's a welcome sight! I like early modern weapons fine, but medieval warfare is what originally got my subscription :)
Now i'm curious to see gothic fingered gauntlets used and see how those do for using a longsword. Since Germans tended to have slightly longer hilts and more flexible gauntlets it seems.
I remember when I started sparring with my SPES heavies and a fencing jacket. It was a colossal difference and I couldn't believe how often I'm gripping the pommel simply because it's more comfortable and allows for better control during the fight. Great points all around, cheers!
That's exactly why I prefer wheel or rounded fishtail pommels in HEMA. With bare hands in drills, a scent stopper is fine. But once you throw the gloves in you lose some dexterity and some feeling of the grip. With a wheel I can much more easily control my edge alignment and switch between standard and a sideways thumb grip for zwerchauen, schielhauen, etc.
Even in plenty of German sources you can see the people gripping the pommel (In Meyer and the Wallerstein Codex for example) and you can often see how the grip is changed to adapt for certain techniques.
Large pauldrons and a helmet can also be quite limiting to the use of a longsword over your head. When I do armored longsword duels, I use smaller, lower profile (and less protective) pauldrons than the ones I use in melees to get better range of motion.
Thank you Matt, this was both entertaining as thought provoking. I feel like this kind of thought can help us see things in a new light and might explain some enigmas as well in the future.
It's amazing how the prevalence today in the interests of martial arts and gear of the past is revealing fundamental misconceptions in many common historical perspectives. You learn so much living (and fighting) like people of the past, so much more than from studying artifacts on their own, or from writing, art, etc. Battle of Agincourt, I'm looking at you 👀
Seems to me that what you lose in mobility you make up for with the extra protection of the armour. I.e. you won't be able to do as many fancy guards when fighting in armour, but the fact that you have armour on makes you able to tank the strikes you can't parry.
Absolutely. Did SCA combat for over a decade with gauntlets. IF they are fitted correctly with practice you have 85 to 90% of your mobility. In exchange your hand will be knocked aside by a blow long before you feel it.
+scholagladiatoria *Several boxing leagues of the early 20th Century through today had rules for weighted soft gloves resembling mitten gauntlets, excepting the metal.* EVERLAST® has several models with this resemblance. English mitten gauntlets had better wrist flexibility for wielding infantry polearms (such as the war bill) than Milani, which were devised for cavalry as wrist protection against enemy infantry blows.
I find it interesting how gauntlets disadvantage crossing the hands. My school tends to avoid that for grappling context as it binds both your hands, but the use of armor may also have influenced that doctrine.
I sometimes wonder how much the effigies of lords and other high-ranking knights really represent the fighting kit of ordinary men at arms. I can easily imagine that the armor on nobles was far more optimized for defense and total coverage, while the actual fighting men had kit that more favored mobility, vision and breathing.
@@shinobi-no-bueno I agree that the weight and cumbersomeness of plate armor is overestimated in the popular mythology, but I think that a full plate harness was beyond the means of most regular men-at-arms, except in the 15th-16th century when professional soldiers became a thing.
This was a great video. I never thought about the specificities of fighting in gauntlets. I appreciate the depth of knowledge you bring to the practical aspects of martial combat.
Good points, the interaction between weapons and armor is still a relevant issue to this day, or should I say, has become relevant again with the re-introduction of armor to warfare. How you hold a rifle and what dimensions you would favor from the rifle's furniture in an unarmored situation differs quite significantly from how you would hold said rifle or which dimension you would favor from it's furniture if you are fully equipped. A protective vest combined with load-bearing equipment will add to your own bulk and restrict your range of comfortable movement, a helmet may restrict you, a headset, if worn separately underneath the helmet may add restriction and a gas-mask will absolutely restrict you. Many modern rifles have adjustable length stocks to account for varying anatomical dimensions of soldiers, but also to accommodate varying levels of restriction from protective equipment. Has anyone ever done a "tacticool" sword with an adjustable-length grip?
I know you've had it for a while, but the new audio setup sounds great! Your original run of videos (the tulwar, pata for example) had a ringing that made it physically uncomfortable to listen to on good headphones, so I only got to watch when I could wrest control over the living room TV. But your new mic sounds great everywhere!
I would love to hear about the history and evolution of hand protection in general, but mostly with polearms. Not only all types of gloves, but shields (when they were the only thing to protect hands) and crossguards on different types of weapons (but don't forget polearms, I'm kinda obsessed with them). I don't like swords much, but I'd like to know more about complex guards of later period swords, rapiers and sabers as well.
I found it cool that you mentioned the two finger locking grip on the pommel, that's exactly what I do with my spes gloves and ensifer feder (which has a pear-shaped pommel). It feels so natural.
This is the first time I have seen your channel. Very informative in regards to midevil gauntlets and there limitations in sword fighting. Now I understand why my replica swords are half blades not full blades.
I use Hourglass Gauntlets with a fairly large bell over the wrist and forearm and they provide a ton of movement, but I still run into the same problem with guards that cross the wrist, the bells knock into each other. Another draw back to the hourglass shape is that you can get the tip of your opponents weapon caught inside the bell. Now, its only happened to me a couple times (probably because it isn’t a valid target in our sparring system, for safety reasons) but we do see in the treaties this being used as an offensive technique. Lovely pair of gauntlets and great video!
It's worth mentioning that the "Doebringer" manuscript bit about not gripping the pommel was referencing Liechtenaur's blossfechten, so fighting without armor against a similarly unarmored opponent, and even then, it was advice regarding cutting mechanics, so gripping the pommel when thrusting or winding, or while wearing armored gauntlets, still doesn't go against that text. And as others have said, other German language texts don't really say anything on the matter, and images from many if those texts (including those in the Liechtenauer tradition) show pommel gripping.
7:42 The Spes heavies are exactly like that. In fact I have even less mobility because the wrist/forearm plates are even longer and flare out more. e.g. 8:02 that position is completely impossible.
I was thinking this, as well. The heavies seem to approximate the limitations of this style of gauntlets quite nicely! I'll gladly trade the mobility for survivability, myself.
I watched a couple videos some time back of a guy who took a pair of SPES Heavy Sparring gloves and modified them for greater mobility, while minimizing loss of safety. I managed to find part one: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-DKKLcLou05M.html
I'd love to see more videos about the dynamics of pommels in full kit. I've always wondered about the differences in shape and position relative to the hand protection worn.
I'm curious about the question of exactly what longswords were designed for. I think of medium-sized ones like the Albion Munich as marvelously flexible sidearms, suited for many scenarios. Based on Albrecht Dürer's *Knight, Death and the Devil*, Paulus Hector Mair's fight book, & many other sources, we know men-at-arms wore such longswords. They serve well enough in the capacity for striking one-handed from the saddle. An estoc would be better for thrusting & a sabre for cutting, but such a longsword does both fine. On foot in armor, it again performs as slightly worse estoc, used with a halfsword grip. On foot in no armor or incomplete armor, the long handle allows for a number of potent techniques. Period fencing manuals suggest longswords saw widespread unarmored use. Contemporary mix-weapon sparring tends to favor rapiers over longswords, though you can find skilled longsword fencers who at least one their own against skilled rapier fencers. Few historical sources address the matchup. George Silver rated the two-handed sword quite highly & wrote that there was no question weapons made for two hands have the odds over the single-handed sword or rapier. We don't know exactly what Silver's two-handed sword look like except that it had a blade of the same 37-40in length as his "short sword." It was probably quite similar to a standard HEMA feder, a few inches longer than the Ablion Munich. The same goes for Gérard Thibault's two-handed sword, though both his & Silver's may have been rather more substantial than a standard feder. Thibault gave instructions for how to defeat the two-handed sword with single rapier, but paid it considerable respect, placing it after the rapier & dagger & rapier & shield. In any case, medium-sized stiff longsword is at least a pretty good weapon sidearm for unarmored fencing. So this type of longswords made not be the absolute best sidearm for any given situation, but they're decent across the board. I don't know for sure, but I believe the folks who made them had versatility in mind.
You answered your own question: You want the perfect weapon for every possible scenario? Have fun dragging an armoury around. You want a single weapon that is "good enough" in any situation? Get a long sword.
learned something new - I am only training myself with a longsword without gauntlets (don't have any) makes totally sense that they are part of an integrated weapon system
Interesting that mitten gauntlets became common after fingered ones, despite having a simpler shape and presumably being easier to make. Maybe they were facing more weapons optimized against plate armor so the emphasis on protection needed to increase? Maybe wearing them together could be a good way to use the advantages of both- At least, if the hand that needs more flexibility isn't the one that also needs more protection, with the particular way you're fighting.
Obligatory pronunciation correction for "Feder": the length of the sounds should be like (Darth) "Vader", otherwise it'd be written "Fedder". Having said that, super-interesting video as usual, thanks! :)
Awesome info! Thanks!! I think the differences between German and Italian systems with respect to pommel grabbing and even the differences in guards (namely the crossed ones) is due to more focus on Blossfechten aspect in Liechtenauer's system. I.e if you have no gauntlets, there is no need to grab the pommel! (may be that what Dobringer meant when he said don't grab the pommel :) ,also in Fiore there are some guards geared more towards armored fighting and they don't cross hands.
"The Italian humanist historian Paulus Jovius writing in the early 1500s also described the two-hand greatsword as being used by Swiss soldiers to chop the shafts of pikes at the battle of Fornovo in 1495." Hi: Any chance you all can test this out on some pikes? Having, years ago, reenacted with some ECW-types in a pike block, my preference would be to see a bidenhänder tested against a small group/formation/school? of pikes, rather than just a single pike.
Skallagrim has a video on that topic. The basic idea seems to be too use the mass of a greatsword to prevent enemy pikemen from effectively using their weapons which then allows your own pikemen to close in and finish them off.
I wonder if there's utility in that tactic in knocking pike heads off. It seems unlikely that the wooden haft would be significantly damaged, but perhaps in a mass-produced weapon like a pike that you might end up with poor end connections. It might be a long shot given the leverage and how they're held, but I also wonder about simply knocking the pike out of the man's hands. That would probably make an instant encumbrance for the unit, having a bigass pole bouncing around.
Almost all the german primary sources i've read so far place the greatsword in every second or third rank and they give the reason that is: to defend your own pikemen from being bypassed by people with shorter arms. Interestingly enough many sources do mention that pikes should have langets else the cavalry would lop off the heads. So it seems that it was possible but that this wasn't the purpose of greatswords. They were ofc used for skirmishing and other things as well but nowhere they write about them specifically lopping off pike heads. For example Hans Wilhelm Kirchof or Adam Junghans von Olnitz. I know some reports of such events but none of them is very clear (one being second hand report) and one having far more halberds than greatswords in attacking group. With halberds we do know that this was done by putting them into the ground or beating them to the side. For example aurelio cicuta mentions this where he also says that great swords wouldnt be able to cut pikes. From my own experience with this weapon it may be possible under the right cirucmstances tactically there would be better solutions.
Can you make a video about lances? Can couched lances be parried? Were they dropped and/or broken during a charge and need to be replaced? How commonly were they used against infantry vs cavalry?
Little conceptual details about these mittens, for dexterity it may have been better to choose a model with a lining to sew the glove around the palm. First your hand would be granted more freedom (larger glove palm) and it is easier to equip/remove, second it can even avoid all the leather straps (or the palm one) depending on the configuration of fingers. Because with these you will probably find handling harder than it should be to manipulate any weapon, that because of those layers superposing in your grip combined with a tight glove, and narrow wrist motion. Ex : CH S18, Avant, ref_arm_1178, ref_arm_1152, 29.150.7k (Met), etc To note that it also exist a configuration with a wrist assembly like that - 2 parts - but articulated, allowing for a bit more range of motion. The difference in use was big enough for me to adopt it in my production.
you should do a small follow up on hand rondels for fingered gauntlets. they are a quick and easy way to make fingered gauntlets acts as mitten/ clamshell gauntlets. i only getting into the sport and its how i got my practice kit set up
I used very similar mitten gauntlets with pole arms (SCA). They are the only way to go for that. And the farther apart the hands are the faster you can move the weapon. I find myself mostly using Katana stances with longswords and gauntlets. I also use a ball pommel on long and great swords to make gripping it more comfortable.
One thing that's not explicitly said here that I think is quite important. My understanding is that many of the guards in the standard unarmored longsword systems developed in a context with a high degree of emphasis on keeping your hands back (out of harm's way) because they are otherwise tempting targets that are quite easy to damage. Once you have gauntlets (and presumably other armor) on, that completely changes the equation. So what if you're stance(es) are vulnerable to sniping at the hands and wrists. Those attacks will do absolutely nothing.
In romance languages like french italian and spanish the words for knight derive from the word for horse, in english however this doesn't happen, and curiously enough english knights tended to fight on foot more frequently than their collegues from the mainland.
Knight looks very close to the german "Knecht" which means servant, and it does make sense as servants of their liege, then again germans use another word alltogether to define knights so i really dont know if the words are related or if there's a connection between the fact that, at least the XIV-XV centuries, english knights fought more on foot than on horse
Early English knights spoke french. Horses were a must for comms, recon, flanking, skirmish and routing and killing enemy on the run. Charges were to be avoided but done in later great battles as too costly.
Once I spotted the migration era sword hanging in the background (to the right of the frame), I couldn't concentrate on what you were saying because I have to keep looking at it and admiring it. Can you please do a video to talk about it?
I do a lot of armored longsword fighting and I use hourglass mitten gauntlets. They do have their limitations and restrictions, but I find that you can still use a Longsword very well and with a lot of finesse. The thing I find more limiting is actually the weight of the armor (mine is about 25-30 lbs heavier then it was historically so take it for what it's worth). I find that I actually have to simplify my fighting to preserve energy. When fighting for long periods of time in armor conserving energy is just as important as skill. It's difficult So gauntlets, in my experience, don't add many limitations because you are already using simpler technique. You have to learn to be as effective as possibly with using as little energy as possible so some moves are just not practical in armor (at least the heavier armor used today in armored combat). It's actually gotten to the point where a sword feels more comfortable to me while wearing gauntlets.
I have a helmet from the same workshop and am quite happy with it, and those gauntlets look nice too. But they seem a bit large for you - does the inner side of the palm cut into the handle of the weapon?
I have found that it is critical on how the thumb is cut away. If the thumb has a large cut out around the knuckle with an over lapping thumb piece then no issues with swords.
It would be interesting to see you try the same mobility tests with lower arm protection on... As the gauntlets overlap the lower arm protection, I expect that in that case all crossing over guards become almost impossible...
Those look very nice and accurate to be sure and they'll protect very well. Except where they don't. You're going to want to be very mindful of your finger and thumb tips. While sacrificing some accuracy I've found I far prefer Grettir gauntlets to all others for (in order) protection, mobility, weight and accuracy but that's my own priority sequence.
Whats your thought on flexible offhand? So instead of crossing your wrists, your offhand leaves the handle/pommel and joins your swordhand position or reinforcing your swordhands wrist. So depending on the strike direction/guard position, your offhand switches flexible between pommel and swordhand position. my personal experience is, that i have stronger strikes and blocks by "abandonning" the pommel instead of crossing the wrists.
You mention having restricted wrist motion as a negative. I don't see this at all, as hyperextending the wrist like as you shown (which may have been exaugurated for emphasis?) can (in my case has) caused wrist injuries. I find that using your fingers and relaxing/strengthening your grip (even in my spes heavies) provides extremely good mobility without hyperextending the wrist.
With the sword in armour, from the perspective of Fiore, shouldnt you use the postas di spada in armour like, posta sagittaya, vera crose, crose bastarda, serpetino lo soprano instead of Fenestra, posta longa and coda longa?
Just a thought on the crowd that do not want to grip the pommel. Could it be because of the style of pommel or the quality of its attachment in the area? If you have a pommel break off while holding it I can see it being troublesome for example.
Careful with the thumbs on your gauntlets, Matt. They look less than great. They aren't grounded, and look pretty flexible. I've had both thumbs broken fighting polearms with free-thumb mittens (rather than covered thumb). Obviously you know what you're doing. Just a word of caution.
Unfortunately, 'grounded' thumbs are a modern invention. I don't really want to go down the HMB type sport armour route, and these are simply based on how the original period gauntlets are constructed.
@@scholagladiatoria i have almost the same gauntlet, but short cuff and "modern" hmb style thumbs. not authentic, but i think thats acceptable, it looks like a period gauntlet but as being a musician and audio engineer i really need my fingers functioning in my day to day life :) so it's a good compromise i think.
@Ford the plates on the thumb reach down to the shaft of your weapon on the sides and front making it a "shell" that basicly "grounds" any hits so that the force of the strike goes into the shaft/hilt of the weapon you are holding, or in some case you can even get a fully enclosed thumb tip. These type of fingers usually don't have leathers just rivets as articulation, much more protection, much less mobility, and not the most historical way, but you'll survive anything in those with your fingers intact.
Im curious would it be the same for the Greatswords? Their handle is longer but is it long enough to give the gauntlets the same freedom as the poleaxe would? I know several illustrations of half and full mitten gauntlets worn by Landsknechte with Greatswords but would they need to restrict the usage of some techniques?
Interesting. Would you recommend HEMA practitioners to learn with historical gauntlets? atleast to get a better understanding to bring back to regular dueling contexts.
You didn't mention what an absolute pain it is to pick anything up, or how much more difficult they make it to just grab things in general. From personal experience I found fingered gauntlets way better for use with a sword than clamshells, they are just much more flexible and take up less space.
This makes me curious how practical a different style of "half mitten" gauntlet would be. Instead of the "half of each finger in a mitten style then fingers extending from it" what if you have your thumb and index finger separately fingered, and just the lower 3 fingers in a mitten style piece? A little more freedom of movement with that upper part of your hand which is most likely to be making use of that flexibility, but still with the added protection of a connected piece of armour covering the lower - and easier to hit - part of your hand.
I wish common longswords had a bit longer pommel. Surely it would have been an issue in history unless you really are supposed to put the off hand on the pommel. Just isn't enough room for mobility otherwise.
Outstanding video, just what I was looking for. Out of curiosity (I am fully aware that it is impractical and absolutely not done). Could one shoot a bow while wearing fingered hourglass gauntlets?