Meg Wheatley - Beyond Hope and Fear (Post Doom with Michael Dowd)

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This post-doom conversation, "Beyond Hope and Fear", between Margaret Wheatley and Michael Dowd, was recorded in October 2022. UPCOMING: "We Have to Talk About Hope" (An Invitation to Explore Our Dependence on Hope), Led by Margaret Wheatley on Zoom - The Berkana Institute: mailchi.mp/2d7677d98c5e/we-ha...
Previous post-doom conversations with Meg (one with Terry Patton, in 2020, the other with Michael Shaw, in 2022) can be found at the top of this page: postdoom.com/conversations/ (Both are excellent, quite different from this one, and highly recommended!)
"Freeing Ourselves from the Addiction to Hope" - by Margaret Wheatley
TEXT: / freeing-ourselves-from...
AUDIO: / margaret-wheatley-free...
The Place Beyond Fear and Hope -- Margaret Wheatley
TEXT: margaretwheatley.com/wp-conte...
When hope is a hindrance
For Hannah Arendt, hope is a dangerous barrier to courageous action. In dark times, the miracle that saves the world is to act: aeon.co/essays/for-arendt-hop... (text AND audio narration)
Michael Dowd's EDUCATIONAL VIDEOS on hope, hopium, etc - / thegreatstory
Post-Doom, No Gloom (Hope-Free) Audio, Text, and Video Resources - (A): postdoom.com/resources/ and (B) postdoom.com/discussions/
RU-vid Playlist: "Pro-Future (Wise) Living: Beyond Hope and Fear" • Playlist
HOPE RELATED QUOTES…
“Grief requires us to know the time we’re in. The great enemy of grief is hope. Hope is the four-letter word for people who are unwilling to know things for what they are. Our time requires us to be hope-free. To burn through the false choice of being hopeful or hopeless. They are two sides of the same con job. Grief is required to proceed.” ~ Stephen Jenkinson
"Hope is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense, regardless of how it turns out. It is the ability to work for something because it is good, not because it stands a chance to succeed.” ~ Vaclav Havel, author, poet, and former president of the Czech Republic
“Do not lose heart; we were made for these times.” ~ Clarissa Pinkola Estés
“The depth of your grief is the measure of your love.” ~ Joanna Macy
“Inattention to the world’s ecological state is well advised. Because attention to it mitigates against your happiness, contentment, and your sense of well-being. Having a conscience now is a grief-soaked proposition. … “If you awaken in our time, you awaken with a sob.” ~ Stephen Jenkinson

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5 ноя 2022

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Комментарии : 87

@JDBrown4peace Год назад

Thank you both for the conversation. Many parts of it have me making new discoveries of my behavior. One in particular is the grief Meg expresses about her favorite place in the woods where she went to get refreshed and grounded that had been eaten to death by pine bark beetles. Then finding another green place to get that cleansing connection. This was one of those OMG moments when I was seeing our (mine and perhaps hers as well) consumerism being exposed. These places that have fed me when I have felt stress and dispare are dying. And what am I doing? Abandoning them to another frontier that will feed me - virgin soil for my colonial conditioning. That spot that has suffered from my species colonialism is abandoned when it needs me most. It is time for me to demonstrate my connection with this place by unconditionally giving my care and attention - bringing a bit of compost and some seeds and seedlings and love to help it heal - even in the hot bare soil with little shade. This is the part of 'reciprocity I am beginning to understand that Robin Wall Kimmerer talks about that we miss. Reciprocity always happens when we are in need and how nature gives back if we are careful and attentive when we harvest, not when it is our time to be of service. What is our role in the relationship of reciprocity for these special places that have lost their appeal to us - where the forest no longer bathes us in negative ions? This is the place where I can be of service. This is where I can draw on the life force within me and offer it to the forest. I become the fountain of nutrients that restores the forest. Otherwise I am just a colonial consumer harvesting subtle energy until it is also used up. Not much different from the logger or strip mining corporation, it seems. Well, I didn't know I was going here when I decided to comment. Thank you for stimulating my thoughts, and I wonder what might be stimulated in you?

@vintage_violet Год назад

This discussion couldn't have come at a better time for me (I love when these things happen, there is still magic in life left despite our situation). I'm at a crossroads in my life with career choices, wanting to stop earning for the sake of it and do something that makes a difference (even though I have a disability and fear poverty etc). I've been doing trauma work for a few years to deal with my personal childhood/adult traumas which have affected me since I can remember and now want to turn what I've learned into something useful. I almost feel like knowing how to face/transmute trauma is MY super-power (mind the ironic turn of phrase lol). I have been doing some writing about it but want to do more, want to reach out to others going through personal traumas but also to teach skills to anyone who needs them for whatever is to come. In my opinion knowing how to hold space for the sorrows/pains/anxieties coming (here) will be highly important... And as someone who grew up poor, abused/neglected, rebellious, and highly sensitive I've always been aware of the doom and gloom, life and death have always been intertwined for me (was even a nihilistic gothic punk in college). Yeah it's the HOPE that always screwed me up lol! False hope I should say, not finding resilience and belief in myself & in others, those things have been hard won but are vitally important to have, too. Keep up the BRILLIANT discussions, you're helping some of us so much and who knows how far the ripples from your work will extend out. Namaste :)

@thegreatstory Год назад

Wow...what an amazing, vulnerable, heartful, and oh-so-powerful comment, Vintage Violet! Thank you, dear one!!

@juliebarks3195 Год назад

Life has made me hopeless. Hopium to me hurts. Being a doomer releases my pain. When You grow up with overwhelming pain and suffering and hope never seems to come, you begin to trust only what you know, only what you have experienced. Doomers are not bad miserable people, we are just realists

@thegreatstory Год назад

Yes, and (as you know!) realism can be deeply rewarding without in any way denying the painful - at times, excruciating - realities in life.

@vintage_violet Год назад

Same here, hope to me has never produced results, I'm an "emo" Gen-Xer who grew up as a latch key kid, abusive parents, terrified of nukes dropping, etc. Doomer-ism feels comfortable at least, I am starting to feel I was born for this time, to be a hand-holder in the doom/grief. Maybe you, too.

@thegreatstory Год назад

@@vintage_violet Beautifully said, VV...thanks!

@juliebarks3195 Год назад

The doomer community feels safe to me because nothing is hidden. It's raw and uncompromising. I have had dooming dreams since I was a child. Nukes, clouds of poison, mega waves, huge wolves, and, Godzilla for some reason. I too was born for this time. It's my safe space in a strange sort of way.

@juliebarks3195 Год назад

@@thegreatstory For me the benefits of being a doomer out way the hopium path.

@chrisholliman6406 Год назад

As someone who regularly experiences anxiety and grief over collapse, I am so grateful for this conversation between Michael and Meg. It has truly touched me with its wisdom.

@thegreatstory Год назад

Thanks, Chris!

@chickenfootranch Год назад

This is awesome! Much gratitude to you both for the wisdom here. Meg's very clear description of hope and hopium, framed in addiction, makes its damaging properties so clear. There is so much freedom in letting go of hope!

@thegreatstory Год назад

Wonderful to see an affirming comment from you, Karen...thanks!

@TennesseeJed Год назад

Meg and Michael are further advanced on this path than I am, so it can be difficult to fully comprehend at times. I think I am still short cycling in the choppy shore water between the stages of grief whereas they are flowing smoothly down the deep river swells. I reckon I have had a few moments of deep water flow and recognize their easy way, but I always bump myself back towards churning eddies of thinkin' I can do something to save things. I resent being coerced and used in precarious financial/social situations by my fellow tribesmen. That carrot on a string is inedible plastic y'all! ...I forget that a lot.

@TennesseeJed Год назад

I think all of us eco theological aware will also enjoy this essay on modernity that also came out today ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PmwJ99qgDhk.html

@abluecanoe Год назад

❤ Margaret. Thank you 🕊

@LivingintheTimeofDying Год назад

really a wonderful conversation 🙏🏼. A delight to hear you two conversing

@Anthropoid333 Год назад

I love Meg. Thank you both for another great conversation!

@thegreatstory Год назад

Our pleasure, Christina!

@pascalw.paradis8954 Год назад

❤️ Your convos and guests. Just bought one of the last 2 copies of 'Overshoot'. We have 2 things saving us now!! COP 247 and Dr. Oz We're gonna be fine now.Good lord have mercy. Like a bad horror movie running from birth, getting progressively more and more scary. Love your work indeed. Day by Day sweet Jesus, day by day. The Awakening is coming into view for many. ❤️❤️🌎❤️❤️

@vintage_violet Год назад

Dr Oz 😂 I mean, right? Could this life get any more nutty??? As if Trump wasn't surreal enough, now we have this charlatan TV doctor (thanks Oprah) whose name is OZ.... To quote the Wicked Witch of the West "What a world, what a world..." 🙃

@thegreatstory Год назад

Commmon, Pascal and Vintage... where's y'all gallows humor? Isn't this great!? :-)

@pascalw.paradis8954 Год назад

@@thegreatstory haha,,,, your so right. gotta keep on smiling. scary midterms today !! wizard of Oz will save us ,, yikes !!

@thegreatstory Год назад

@@pascalw.paradis8954 Not scary for me at all. I've got plenty of popcorn. fyi...I've voted Democrat, Green, or Independent my whole life AND I hope the Democrats get crushed in this election. Just sayin... 🙂

@pascalw.paradis8954 Год назад

politics are in such bad shape. not just in yours and my country.... most countries. but your country with the 900 bases is outta control. your country would be in great shape if it spent wisely. look at Detroit and now Chicago ,,,, black holes. homeless in California is CRAZY. and if could you talk to Biden about getting along with Cuba PLEASE.... haha. I think old white men and their egos are one big trouble spot. just saying ,,,,if more people had the very good common sense you carry around---- good lord the world would be a better place indeed. @@thegreatstory

@em945 Год назад

That was so lovely, and helpful. Thankyou, Both.

@thegreatstory Год назад

You're most welcome, EM.

@KaizenTrainingLtd Год назад

So grateful to you both - thank you

@thegreatstory Год назад

Thanks, Kim!

@benlatimer9495 Год назад

I thought you might like a quote from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (Douglas Adams) “What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in the ground underneath a giant boulder you can't move, with no hope of rescue. Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your current circumstances seems more likely, consider how lucky you are that it won't be troubling you much longer.”

@thegreatstory Год назад

That's a great one...thanks, Ben!

@noahsark2009 Год назад

Open hearted, broken-hearted, Moved to tears, Feeling my connection to the universe though I walk on asphalt I am in an actual urban forest. So much to be grateful for especially the clear visions that you And Meg present In this Podcast. Thank you so much.

@thegreatstory Год назад

Thank you so much for this deeply heartful and encouraging comment!

@noahsark2009 Год назад

@thegreatstory especially found helpful the description of techno-optimism, that "we" got this somehow. It kind of captures how the father of my granddaughter feels about our predicament, living in the middle of the megalopolis, precontemplatively or otherwise addicted to the great machine in a number of ways. Just listened to Nate Hagen's and Simon Michaux's? newest podcast. They developed the concept of the Arcadians who can work over the long term to salvage something of our civilization, which could be in balance with the Earth for the future. It could be hopium, But I do believe certain sectors of the world will be able to come through such as Those indigenous people who can live in Harmony, And people who can develop communities based around permaculture, Such as Jason? Bradford proposes. Perhaps the Scandinavians can redevelop civilization in a harmonious way, as Simon discussed on Nate's podcast.

@benlatimer9495 Год назад

Thanks Michael, just caught the Jem Bendell interview which was also great!

@firecracker3911 Год назад

Excellent!

@thegreatstory Год назад

Agreed. Meg's the best of the best.

@OurPredicament Год назад

so glad to hear you discussing Glubb's work. We are so obviously in the age of decadence. thank you Michael for being a spiritual leader in these dark days

@pookahdragon5850 11 месяцев назад

When Meg started talking about the pine beetles is when i could finally cry. I have needed to for a long time. I bought land to build off-grid. I had hundreds of old growth pinion. Now, I have 3. I do have hundreds of young pinion that have flourished in the last year. I try to focus on those, but it is difficult due to the dead trees everywhere I look. The fire threat is another issue. Felling and chopping trees is hard, time consuming work. The timing is terrible. Building my cabin and creating a food forest is just as necessary. As a genXer from an abusive home, I learned that hope is too painful. Reality has rarely given me hope. My mind learned to ride the wave at a much too young age. I started geeking on climate change, or rather global warming, at the age of 11. Most of the people in my life aren't climate deniers, but they are reality deniers who still believe this can be fixed. With over 40 years of paying attention to the science, I know better. I am so glad to have found this post doom community. There are people in my life, but none have even begun to accept the reality. The inability to have real conversations with those I love has created a sense of loneliness that I have never felt before. Thank you for creating this space.

@thegreatstory 11 месяцев назад

You are most welcome! If you've not yet watched my CACOR video and Q&A: "The Big Picture: Beyond Hope and Fear", I recommend them both to you. See the top of this page: postdoom.com/resources/ Also, if you've not yet begun connecting with others in the PD (CAA) community, see here: postdoom.com/discussions/ (Other helpful videos and Gallows Humor file on that page, too.) 🙂

@zenpig6605 Год назад

I don't see Hope as opposing acceptance . Hope for me, is not grasping onto my idea of what life should be or not be. Hope is doing my best in the moment, but at the same time, not tied to some idea of a outcome. The old story about the Zen farmer who had his prize horse run away, and the villagers said, "Oh, so bad for you", and the farmer said, "we will see". Then the next day the prize horse came back along with several wild mares following him, and the villagers said, "Oh, how good for you", and the Zen farmer said, once again, "we will see". The day after that the farmers son was trying to break one of the wild horses, and got bucked off and broke his leg. Once again, the villagers said: "Oh so bad for you", and once again farmer said, "We will see", lastly the next day the emperors general came to the farmers village looking for young men to conscript but because his son had a broken leg, he was not taken to the front......... and on and on. So non attachment to a perceived outcome . I have hope for mother earth, but I have no idea how that will unfold, I suppose the large majority of humanity will end, but in a few thousand years, our mother will recover like she has so many times before, and I cannot begin to to know how that might look like. I suppose we will see.

@thegreatstory Год назад

I doubt "we" will see, but I'm quite familiar with that parable and, yes, I don't see hope, as you've defined it (key!) to be opposed to acceptance. Still, I highly recommend watching all of this conversation, if you've not already done so AND I recommend the resources linked in the RU-vid description box, especially Meg's writings on the subject.

@TennesseeJed Год назад

I love the Taoist Farmer story too! I have told the grandkids that one a few times.

@bumblebee9337 Год назад

I'm too neurotic to use hope.

@sunspot6502 Год назад

I don't do hope. I don't do fear...usually. I just deal with the facts. Optimism and pessimism are propaganda.

@dianewallace6064 Год назад

Rev. Dowd, thanks for being on Spotify.

@allisonfrank9940 Год назад

The quickening is quickening.

@bumblebee9337 Год назад

The all powerful Wii 😉

@77NickDale 8 месяцев назад

Well, if hope is hopeless and we shouldn't have hope, then - i just give up. I'll give up on all the things I do. Just give up on all my dreams and passions. Why bother? Haven't found the love of my life, don't have a home of my own. ..there we go. That's life. Just give up.

@A.BC- Год назад

(w)He-Man, Masters of the Universe... And then 'some' (allot...) people wake up in a 'hopium nightmare' to realize that reality is not using (tech) magic... Again a wise and beautiful conversation!

@thegreatstory Год назад

Thanks!

@alonsega212 Год назад

An Absoloutly brilliant conversation, thank you. Still, lets ask further, say she wants to have a child with him, but he does not feel suited for that, so for her he is the right petson to serve that need, but for himself he is not.

@thegreatstory Год назад

Yup, that's a predicament, for sure. No idea how to coach him/her/them in this situation.

@peterclark2374 Год назад

Michael and Meg - We enjoyed this conversation. We've followed you for a while. What do you think of the work of Dr Michael Mann, U Pa? Is he too much of a hopium peddler for you? Michael, would you consider contacting him to arrange an interview? I don't know if he would accept an invitation, even if offered. Thanks for your consideration.

@thegreatstory Год назад

Seriously, Peter? Michael Mann would not touch me with a ten-foot pole, I'm quite certain, especially after this video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-g59vxAbof2s.html

@peterclark2374 Год назад

Thanks. I had forgotten that you mentioned his book in that video.

@dion8962 Год назад

Is it okay, in your eyes, for a drug addict trying to get off drugs, to be hopeful about getting clean, or should they just continue to use drugs because there is no hope?

@SLefd Год назад

When the hope is pointing to something that is possible to reach, hope is not destructive. The addict can be able to make it. But here we are discussing the hope that "something, someone" or "we" will manage to avoid the great global disasters that we see coming closer. Tons of facts show us that there's just no chance. Only fools keep on kicking and screaming when surrounded by the Hulk, Superman, the army of a superpower and ten wild horses. All they are asking us to is to calm the f down.

@dion8962 Год назад

@@SLefd There should be more clarification about that in these video clips. Because some people might lose hope entirely about everything, out of misunderstanding. People will give up entirely and take themselves out, and possibly other people too, if they dont have any hope at all, just out of fear and desperation. Most people interpret doomerism to hopelessness, in every area of their lives. Especially drug addicts. Hopelessness can ruin addicts in recovery, especially if theyre just barely hanging on.

@SLefd Год назад

@@dion8962I see what you mean, and I'm sure some individuals can and will turn to desperation after listening to videos like this. But I just don't agree that this justifies more clarifications than there already are in such videos. It's like saying there shouldn't be any news media because bad news will terrify some. There's just no way of communicating honest and constructively about these issues *without* that risk you're pointing to. There is never any way to protect and secure everyone everywhere. Some will get it and feel better than before, some will not get anything out of it at all, most will never even discover conversations like this, and some will listen and misunderstand or in some other way use it as reason for killing themselves and others. We civilized humans, we're on our own a lot. It's just hard.

@vintage_violet Год назад

I see Doomer-ism as Acceptance of our plight, of our frailties as humans (not as Supreme Beings/Super-heroes like they spoke about), a way to accept our humanity and find ways to stay IN our humanity despite The Truth of what we've done/the situation. As someone who has close family getting clean right now it strikes me that the Serenity Prayer works for both situations--we MUST accept the things we cannot change, connect with our innate/deep wisdom, lean into a "higher power" in a sense--in the way we can be of service to humanity, to something greater than ourselves, etc. My family member has reunited with his kids and that is pulling him forward, it's his "something greater." For me I want to share the methods that helped me heal from trauma with others to help mitigate the collective suffering. We need people to show others how to sit with their humanness and not succumb to nihilism, perhaps people who've overcome addiction could be of service that way, too. I had another family member who recently died from their addiction. It left many of us with lingering PTSD from their downward spiral and did not serve him at all either. Doesn't help for anyone to numb themselves and/or take themselves out, it only adds to the suffering on the planet, makes things harder in the end for those left and for what's to come (in my opinion of course, not that you asked, lol). Namaste

@dion8962 Год назад

People need SOME hope, but not the toxic positivity kind of hope. Theres a hopeful balance. We can still be doomers and have hope in other areas of our lives. To much or not enough, can be toxic in my opinion. If a addict uses their children as a higher power and they find that theres no hope for that childs future, that cant be good, if theyre depending on that to stay clean.

@abluecanoe Год назад

27:52 -31:42 🎯 Okay the rest too! 🕊

@thegreatstory Год назад

Agreed! 🙂