Melina, The Failed Successor - Elden Ring Lore Theory 

Most wholesome dialogue from Melina imo is when she asks us to be considerate of Boc.

This is by far the most satisfying video out there on Melina.

I think you nailed the timeline of Melina. Marika wanted a successor but when she realized her successor was going to bring back DD, she got cold feet, only to finally acquiesce when she realized there was no viable alternative that didn't involve using Melina

I mostly agree with your theory, but I have a couple of issues with the timeline. First of all, Messmer seems to be informed of what a Tarnished is, which would place Godfrey's banishment prior to the Crusade. I'd say it's fair to surmise that the Crusade was the last thing Marika did before recalling Radagon to the Capital to become Elden Lord and estabilish the Golden Order. Secondly, we find that the Crusaders have grown some Minor Erdtrees in the Realm of Shadows. Since the Erdtree sheds seeds only when it's in mortal danger, and something caused the early Erdtree's blessings to stop flowing, I'd say we can connect the dots and surmise that Melina's rebellion was before Messmer's crusade. This is why she's mentioned in Messmer's Kindling. Moreover, let's remember that the Godskins are serpentine in aspect, which may link them to Gelmir's Serpent God (who is said to be a traitor to the Erdtree and was already reviled during Godfrey's reign, as per the Duellist set). If things are as such, Marika's fear of Messmer would only be componded and give her one very strong reason to banish him to the Realm of Shadow. This may also explain why Messmer was so reviled among Erdtree aristocracy that when they disowned their scions when they chose to follow him. One last addendum: there's some evidence suggesting that Destined Death wasn't completely sealed away until the creation of the Golden Order, which seem to coincide with Radagon's reign (Last Protagonist, amon others, has published excellent material about this matter). If this is so, is it so strange to conclude that Melina was the first "warden" of the Rune of Death, in a time where it was much less feared and its workings less restricted? Only, maybe she could smell blood in the water (plus her visions of the Erdtree burning) and got a feeling where her mother reign was headed, thus prompting her rebellion.

Miquella's boss fight literally starts with him saying that he chose us from the start and guided our whole journey for his own purpose. So Torrent was just following what Miq told him to do. Defeating Miquella means attaining our own agency. We might not have been mind controlled but we were set on a specific path.

An interesting bit of dialogue that I think hints at why Melina is a kindling maiden is Marika's echo at the outer wall battleground site of grace. "In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..." I think the use of the word 'sacrifice' there and in Enia's dialogue is significant. It really does feel to me like the story From is telling here is that Melina was the GEQ, was defeated by Maliketh and as a result became a kindling maiden. Another small connection is the shapes of the Godslayer sword and fire knight greatswords, they are strikingly similar, hinting at a connection between Messmer and the GEQ.

This was so well done love the format and the way you explained lore. Can't wait to binge your content - got my sub for sure 😁

The one Tarnished that is the player is special. The Hornsent describes us as progeny of the strumpet, strumpet is Marika. Meaning we are yet another child of Marika, perhaps even a demigod although the latter seems unknown to the people of the Lands Between (if it was true). The Walking Mausoleums only hold the most esteemed/valuable individuals, and in the very first seconds you can hear the sounds of such a mausoleum, heavily slowed, right before "crossing the fog", which could also be a metaphora for being brought back to life after a long slumber in one of these mausoleums. Gideon says "not even you", Melina says "not even you" - could be a coincidence, could also imply that we/the player is actually really important/special. Going back to the theory that we might be a demigod, that would explain why Gideon is wrong here (he is actually consistently wrong about a great many things, "all-knowing" has to be a joke). When Melina recites Marika's command to come back, brandish the Elden Ring, become Elden Lord and so on, she also says Tarnished a manner as if it was one specific Tarnished (i.e. the player), and not a group of people. And at the end of the day we are also maidenless which has never been the case for any other Tarnished.

There is this theory from a guy called tomato-chan, that said that our tarnished is actually one of demigods that died long ago, if you think about it, it makes sense that why we are so unique and so powerful that we can defeat the god of our world and even when miquella, a new born god tried to killed the tarnished, he defeated by us and we continue our path to become elden lord.

I'd love to see you explore the lore of Sage cave where you find Patches hood, Necromancer Garris, and the black knife assassin. There's so much complexity with that cave that it's worth for a video on its own right. Speaking of caves, Stillwater is another interesting one. Has the Sage's set, cleanrot knights, it's in Liurnia, might have some interesting speculation in its own right for a short lore video.

I actually don't think messmer is a child of Marika (sorta. You get it 😅). I think him and Melina were children of Radagon and the GEQ. I think Radagon "seduced and betrayed" the GEQ just like with Rennala. GEQ is associated with snakes and the flame of destined death. Messmer got her snake. Melina got DD. The Godskin nobles have snake tails and even look like messmer (under all that skin 💀). I think Marika did pull those threads out of a snake in the trailer and that was GEQ. Marika their became their adoptive mother just like with Ranni and all them. Kitetales put out a sick video about it 2 days ago. Never thought I'd have my mind changed about Melina being GEQ 🤷‍♀️😅💖🔥

How do you only have 801 subscribers?! Great job sir, ill certainly follow you for more content and theories going forward.

This is by far the most concise and reasonable explanation video for the events in the game ive seen so far. I was maddening trying to wrap everything up and tough we still dont know 100% this was really neat. Thank you

Great Video. I concur that Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, although I believe the Rune of Death was given to Melina. I don't see a reason why Marika would leave the Rune of Death just lying somewhere, it opens the door for anyone to claim the very power that can kill Marika and her children. No, I think she gave it to Melina because she was a demigod, Empyrean, and her daughter. Who better do guard and bear that power? But as the finger reader Enia says "Tainted by the strength of their runes, her children warred, but none could become Elden Lord." I believe that the Rune of Death somehow corrupted Melina and that is why Maliketh had to defeat her.

Interesting idea :) nicely put together! I think we can reconcile Melina in the FF ending? Spirits are specifically what remains beyond Death of body & soul, the memory of the person per se, and would be still taken as dead. Melina then is burned & bodiless, yet she lives - because she is a living soul split from its killed body, a la Ranni, and so isn’t actually a spirit? (Could make sense then how Ranni knows how to use the Rune of Death so specifically?) Could then argue FF's chaotic nature only reduces everything to nothing once the thing in question dies - it can "kill the dead" rather than the living, so to speak?

Hey man, nice video! I reacted to it live on stream. There's one thing I wanted to point out: How can Marika begin the Age of the Erdtree as the Golden Order by removing the Rune of Death, yet you argue Melina was the Gloam-Eyed Queen? Wouldn't Melina have needed to have been defeated for Marika to remove the RoD from the Ring? I'm afraid the timeline just doesn't add up that way

The idea of Melina being a reprogrammed Gloam-Eyed Queen and Marika's child was pretty common even before the DLC. However, I have also seen the idea that the god of the previous Crucible Age was the original GEQ, the giant serpent Marika harvests gold from in the story trailer, that had Placidusax as their Elden Lord and served as the vassal for the Outer God of Death mentioned in the Gravebird description. That the Death God would then seduce Marika's own child to serve as their new Gloam-Eyed Queen and challenge Marika would be a beautifully ironic revenge designed to mentally destroy Marika.

There was a video of someone linking the noise in the intro to the bell of a walking mausoleum, which could mean that the tarnished we are playing is a lost child of Merika. That could explain why Torrent/Melina chose that one as their ride to the flame. If we are part of the golden lineage that would be also kind of neat to basically canonise us basically coming back instantly back to life when defeated since its not possible to kill demi gods.

This is probably the first logical video I've seen on this subject and it's extremely refreshing. I would like to add though, something that seems very apparent to me is that all Empyreans have a womb. Miquella still potentially fits in this because like his mother, he presents as both male and female until of course he discards his "other self". This would explain why none of the male children born with Rennala are considered Empyrean, but Ranni is. Ranni was also the only female born of Marika/Radagon that wasn't cursed. it seems likely that for that reason, Ranni was intended to be the successor to Marika, and Godwyn potentially her king consort, being the only non-cursed male born of Marika and Godfrey. This seems like the logical cause of Ranni having Godwyn killed in soul, while she is killed in body. This would allow her to use her puppet as a vessel for her soul so she can work toward ridding the lands between of The Greater Will altogether. My working theory for why Melina changes in the Frenzied Flame ending is that when the Tarnished releases the rune of death without Melina burning herself at the forge, it essentially returns to destined death to her. She returns to her physical form as the Gloam Eyed Queen, similar to how her brother becomes the Base Serpent when he destroys his "eye". When she urges you not to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame, she tells you "I will kill you, as sure as night follows day. Such is my duty, for allowing you the strength of runes." It seems that she knows what will happen if she isn't sacrificed at the forge, and if that happens, the world she envisions will not only be an impossibility, but she will be trapped in a lifeless abyss for all eternity as a vessel for something that is no longer needed. As for why Torrent chooses us and why Melina has him, that's a big question mark. Melina mentions though that she wasn't sure of your abilities and was testing you. This seems to indicate that this may not be the first time she's interacted with a tarnished warrior that may or may not have been capable, but you prove yourself to her when you defeat Margit.

its suggested certain events may spawn 'seeds'. Melina is very comparable to another certain M named character, pertaining to Malenia. also Melina tells you herself she was "born at the foot of the erdtree." characters are not born of copulation, and 2 partners aren't necessary, as showcased by Malenia and Miquella, because despite Marika and Radagon being a 'married couple' they are also literally only 1 being, switching when necessary.

For me it's as you said Melina has the vision of death flame, the connection between Melina and the Destined Death is exactly what keeps her alive at the end of the frenzied flame enging. (I also could point after dlc that she "could" keeps herself alive divesting her golden eyes or the grace in it in order to open her sealed eye.) If we analyze what's in the game about, the destined death is even capable of killing the lord of the frenzied flame and she claims to be responsible for hunting and killing their lord. Not only is she the kindling maiden, with the purpose on guiding the chosen by grace tarnished on the path to becoming the Elden Lord, but she also has the purpose of killing that same tarnished with the flame of death if the path he chooses (aka three fingers) is not worthy of what she believes. The dialogue of her saying to you "don't speak ill of that" is also the dialogue response to the Shabriri saying that you have a choice on burning the Erdtree and saving Melina (aka taking the Frenzied Flame) and when you are in the Flame of Frenzy Proscription site of grace she says to us "as one who strives to become a lord, deny not the lives and the new births of this world" life is enduring and she see beauty in that. The blade of calling description says that is the blade of the ones that leaves to fullfil her duty and Melina says the exact same words to you after you inherit the frenzied flame she says "If you rise as Lord of Chaos I'll kill you. Such is my duty for allowing you the strenght of runes"

One thing about Melina that I don’t see people mentioning much is her use of the minor erdtree incantation. It’s also weird that morgott doesn’t say a thing about Melina during his boss fight if you summon her.

My thought is that Melina’s destined death power was sealed with the Eye of Occulation (i think that’s the dark eye right) and then it broke when Marika’s elden rune gets broken, similar to how when Miquella’s rune was broken everyone under the spell had it released, so she was in that new(restored?) form after we killed radagon/marika/elden-beast/elden-ring but before we actually took up the mantle and unleashed the frenzied flame.

I believe Melina breaks the fourth wall twice to my knowlesge, as though aware that the Tarnished is being controlled by us. She looks directly into the camera and speaks to us twice---once when when she's burning the tree and thanking us, and another when we become Frenzy Lord and she threatens us. I think it's interesting that in both instances we lose control of our characters and the camera moves independently of them. FromSoft games seem to usually have an in universe explaination for game mechanics, most notably respawning and leveling up, and I think that the player/avatar dynamic is also an in-universe phenomenon that Melina is aware of. Maybe the guidance of grace is that connection between us and the Tarnished, which sets us apart from the other NPCs who no longer are guided and whose players have abandoned them. Melina, Ranni, and Torrent are keenly aware of our Tarnished unique situation.

Wonderful video!! Thank you for your work!

first off, this is a profound theory i enjoyed watching. as for why melina/torrent chose us, i was always under the impression its because we are maidenless. presumably varre killed our maiden, why exactly our maiden? maybe it has nothing to do with us, but its all about melina? maybe mogh (under the influence of miquellas charm?) ordered varre to simply kill any maiden for melina to take over? or maybe it has nothing to do with this at all and melina guides us for a different reason.

20:40 That question is answered in the Elden Ring manga. Torrent really likes our ass 😂😂😂

I agree with most of what you said. I have to disagree on one main point. I don't believe that Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, despite the dark color of her one eye. I believe that it makes more sense for Marika to have had the GEQ as her alter ego. I mean, Maliketh was said to have defeated her in battle and in Marika's abdomen we see what looks to be a lance of red crystalized energy, very reminiscent of if not identical to Destined Death energy. That would explain her weakened state, the lance and a lot more. There is a great video on it, can't remember who made it though, I've been binge-watching ER Lore videos lately. At any rate, i think that is a much better explanation as to who the GEQ is. The video outlines a ton of indirect yet compelling evidence. If i can find it, ill edit my comment and drop the name of the creator and the video title so y'all can check it out.

Everytime marika and radagon have children they change the era the children they have outside of their union seem to be wild cards

Like Miquella and St. Trina, Marika have two sides to her as well. And the other side is Radagon. But Radagon is said to be cursed by the Fire Giants. Henceforth, he is red of hair like all fire giants. But since Radagon is Marika, that means it was Marika who got cursed. My theory is that Radagon originally had golden hair like Marika. But after their defeat at the hands of Godfrey, the Fire Giants curse Marika, turning Radagon's hair red. After the war, Godfrey return to Marika and became Elden Lord and first consort of Marika. I believe that Messmer and Melina is the child of Godfrey and Radagon. And given that Radagon is cursed by the Fire Giants, it would explain why both Messmer and Melina would be cursed with flames and allows them to serves as kindling. And this would also explain Melina's dialogue to Boc. "I think Boc misses his mother.... Does being born of a mother mean one behaves in such a manner?" Since she was not born from a mother, she doesn't know how it feels.

I can't agree with your timeline. The Blackflame Monks, enthralled by the god-slaying black flame, became traitors, abandoning their posts as guardians. The seduction of a taboo is never easily spurned. The Fire Monks are guardians of the flame of ruin, forbidden by the Erdtree and said to be kept high in the Mountaintops of the Giants. Golden Order was created after Maliketh defeated GEQ and sealed rune of death. At the same time existance of Blackflame monks confirms that GEQ was still active after War of the Giants. As War of the Giants ends the "era of the Erdtree" begins. Godfrey is referred as Elden Lord and is asked by Marika to "brandish the Elden Ring". Which means she was a god already. Creation of the Golden Order comes later. I think Melina is THE GEQ. I am open to the idea she was cursed like other Marika/Redagon children though.

I understand when people say there is a pattern with the naming of children. Considering morg and morgot are both confirmed to be Godfrey kids so yeah. The whole all children starting with an M is not a thing???

You really cooked with this Melina lore perspective I do think Ranni, Melina, and Miquella all were working together. They all actually share the same goal, to rid the world of the broken foundations it was built upon. Only Miquella sought to do this by becoming a God Ranni by simply abandoning the world while locking the door and throwing away the key so no outter forces could meddle in it again And Melina by restoring death and letting the natural order of life/death heal the world through renewal/rebirth. All 3 needed a Tarnished capable of becoming a Lord. And all 3 seek us out at one point or another As for Torrent I suspect Melina originally owned Torrent but Ranni inherited Torrent after Melina died, and when Ranni killed her flesh Torrent then went to Miquella. But in the shadow Lands Miquella finds Melina and gives her Torrent back

Everyone has this same idea, what if she isnt a failed successor. We clearly have her with us as a spirit, do you think that she used her real body to set flames to the erdtree the first time?

Never understood why melina would approve of the godskins wearing literally skin, she doesn’t strike me as the kind of person as the gloameyedqueen. It’s really fuckedup someone would wear the faces of another.

Her children really are just refined Chimera or Vessels like Jars. Seemingly all of them carry either an aspect of herself or the enemies she's had over the eternity she experienced. Kind of sad. All her kids formed ambitions encouraged by a mother who knew well they'd all fail terribly. With all the runes no longer conjoined to properly interpret and communicate they were doomed from the start.

Many people might find it weird but i feel a bit sad about Melina's death Particularly her facial expression and body language. It feels like she's truly contempt

The soldiers in the shadow realm absolutely know about the erdtree in its form in the lands between. Various item descriptions suggest this.

Torrent chose us because that was Miquella’s plan

I just made a video about Godwyn Sorry for the spoilers for my vid Godwyns soul is not truly dead. It's only dead as far as the golden order and erd tree burial , are concerned. 😢

mmmm.. Why would Melina accept to be kindling maiden in the first place? Why would she want to burn the erdtree and allow Maliketh to take the rune of death, seal it and hide in farum azula? isn't her all existence and purpose was based on the opposite outcome? to "deliver death indiscriminate"?

Melina is vikes old maiden. Torrent is vikes old horse, who is twin to miquella horse. Thats why she mad when you do the same path as him and she took a deal with the new snow witch to be bodyless like her. Naw im kidding😂😂

this video made me realize a few things with melina, torrent, ranni and miquella I might be wrong but Is there any mention of torrents purpose? and Like why is melina and torrent together in the beginning and why is torrent finding a "suitable" tarnished for the role of seeking the elden ring? I like to think that with the context of the new DLC that miquella is proven to be torrents former master and maybe torrents "purpose" is to deliver melina to the chosen tarnished so she could burn the erdtree once more and maybe miquella "revived" melina after the first burning of the erdtree (like what he did with rahdan) and the true purpose of the chosen tarnished is to eliminate the other demi gods and destroy the former order so miquella can ascend to godhood, and Is the gates of divinity need alot of sacrifices to access or it? or its just design like that because of the hornsent? anyway going off that the tarnished did exactly what miquella wanted and also giving him a consort (killing rahdan and mohg) or st. trina sent torrent and melina to the lands between in hopes to stop miquella and torrent finding "THE tarnished" maybe because our tarnished can see spirits which only a few can see them stated by a few characters specially by the nepheli and roderika questline which is weird to think about that only a few could see torrent and melina (if she is truly burned and bodyless) and other spirit summons ( is there a difference with "spectral" and "spirit"?) which is ranni is also involve with, which also lead me to think that melina and miquella has some "involvement" in the night of the black knives and melina has many similarities to the black knife assassins maybe she "introduced" them to ranni and miquella "involvement" is showing the flaws of the golden order to ranni which leads to ranni to abandon his empyrean flesh which miquella also did later on in the land of shadows (maybe to not be manipulated by the fingers while he ascend to godhood) also its off that miquella didn't even mention malenia his sister in name, like wasn't that his first priority to stop outer gods so he could save her? and only refers to her as "my blade" but its also could be referring to rahdan as his "new blade" which is weird... and also the note saying here I abandon my love like whats that about? It got me thinking "what's kindness with out love?" maybe that's what st. trina is referring to of "caged divinity" it's only purpose is "control of the lands between" and not "to be controlled by the finger or something else" but like bound to the laws of the land between he lost his true goal of true kindness without the TRUE guidance of the two fingers and maybe thats what marika realized and tried to change eldenring but ultimately shatterd it in frustration IDK and "kindness" is also what marika tried to achieve referring to the minor erdtree incantation "kindness of gold without the order" and what happened in shaman village and jar saints but there's no denying in order to achieve this, one needs to destroy what came before in reference to Hinduism

If Marika was able to subdue the abyssal Serpent with a seal of grace and she maybe did the same with death in Melina, why did she not due it with the outer god of rot in Malenia and with Miquellas nascency? Was she unable or unwilling?

I think she's rannis true form I mean they have the same voice same eyes are closed and the both know torrent well and destined death. They also remind me of the sword of night and flame. Both of them guild u to do to effect the greater will in almost the same. It's interesting the both want to be you madien. What if they both killed your maiden from the start.. my point is they are opposite sides of the same coin. 😅 someone sees it too right?

Interesting theory, but what about the different ER in Faram Azula? You think the dragon god disappeared before Marika's ascension?

The naming convention means nothing - using the same logic, you could claim that Morgott and Mohg were Radagon's... But they were Godfrey's.

You speak if a room in the forbidden lands where Melina was hidden \ seal is there any evidence in the game for it. What are the forbidden lands? Just curious cause it's the first time I here someone talk about it 12:20

The moon blocks the sun, not once have we seen true daylight in this game.she tried to knock down the tree. Look at how the scadu tree on the left side looks like it's holding the very straight but split trunk. I think we're looking the lower part of the urd tree. It's got an arm.

Peace together why she disappeared from the DLC

I think Marika stole both children from Rakhard the snake god. Both have fire connections and can kindle and messars music has hints of Rakard music in it theirs also the whole flame monk location connections etc

I want the theory of Melina being the Gloam-eyed Queen to be true just because she really does not have that much lore to begin with. She mentions not remembering her life after being burned and body-less.

17:49 Drew Barrymore anyone? 🔥

I understand the implication of "Messmer the Impaler" and the impaled Giants in the Mountaintops but other than the fact that they are impaled, there is virtually no evidence to support this claim. The spears are not similar to the other impaled people we see throughout the DLC. We have no item descriptions that even remotely place Messmer in the mountaintops or that he was part of that conflict. Please stop spreading this claim. I see it everywhere and it's virtually baseless.

So while I also thought Messmer would be Marika’s first born I don’t think he was because Godrick’s Great Rune says how Godfrey and his lineage were the first demigods . So that relationship must’ve come first. I think Messmer and Melina were born well into the Erdtree era, most likely before the Liurnian wars that would lead to the birth of Ranni, Radahn, and Rykard.

Hot take. Melina and Messmer were adopted by Marika, after she killed the Gloam eyed Queen. That's why Messmer looks like skinny godskin apostle and the frenzied flame ending, Melina unlocks "DESTINED DEATH"

(1) How did Melina inherit torrent? During early development, GEQ was Marika's sister. Her statue is still in Farum Azula. She was supposed to be Melina's aunt and the mentor who trained her as a phantom assassin. GEQ left torrent with Melina because... (3) Why did Torrent choose us? In GRRM mythos GEQ was the player's mother i.e. The mother of that tarnished of no renown. It was supposed to be the big bombshell reveal of the entire game.

ooo

My question is why most of her children have an outer god. Marika power is sealing things or just seals in general. Like miquella is stealing hearts. But damn Miyazaki messed up the story by not giving answers to basic questions he made. This why dlc story wise is 3/10

Just to be sure, do you realize that Melina can't be both Radagon's daughter and the GeQ? GeQ was born and was an empyrean in the Age of Crucible, same as Marika, which is when her alleged godhunt took place. At the start of golden order she was defeated and the rune of death sealed. If Melina is GeQ it would automatically mean she was born quite some time before Marika becoming a god. There's likewise absolutely no reason to believe Radagon existed before Marika becoming a god. Oh, I just watched the rest. Sorry but you are factually wrong, the rune of death was sealed into Maliketh's sword at the beginning of the golden order, which is when the power of destined death was lost from the world. That's when the blackflame lost its power and GeQ was defeated. We also know Melina didn't kill any demigods or gods of Marika's age, so if she managed to kill some it was in the previous era. Smough made this dumb mistake as well and presented wrong timeline, but since then he corrected himself (without deleting/altering the original video). For most of the claims you made there's zero actual evidence but it's a fun guessing, but in case of Melina and when the rune of death was sealed you're just wrong.

Pretty much lines up perfectly with my general canon on Melina. Could nitpick the timeline specifics but the overall story seems to match perfectly. Easy subscribed. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the connection between Marika, Metyr, the eternal cities, and the Black Knife Assassins. Marika is both a Numen and a Shaman. The black knife assassins are said to have ties to Marika and are described as Scions of the Eternal City. The eternal city betrayed and wounded Metyr (who presumably guided Marika or the GEQ). We know that the wound on Metyr caused it to be abandoned by the greater will and that the greater will punished the people of the eternal city. In addition the Nameless Eternal City is beneath Leyndell and its missing throne is found is Sellia. There is just so much there it’s hard to make sense of and it feels important to the story at large.

Nice Video. I had a little theory, what if the finger slayer blade was made with the original charred body of Melina, which had part of the power of destined death. That will explain the treason of the Nox and why it had the ability to kill the two fingers.