Edit: huge disclaimer, ignore the part where I said the item description was removed, turns out it was a hoax I couldn’t verify due to having already used the item, I am very sorry. Good point is it can still be used to further the points in this video! MELINA IS MESSMERS TWIN IS FURTHER REINFORCED! I’m very sorry for the misunderstanding! Edit edit…: I messed up big time I said Melina was soulless when I meant bodiless… cmon gecko Hello everyone! Hope you're all having a great day! I felt like I needed to say, I don't dislike the Godwyn cocoon theory but I don't personally believe it, that does not mean it's bad though! Take a shot every time I say in my opinion... actually please don't Would also like to say, Messmer says he hates his flame, yet we never find out why... Maybe this is why? Music is a mixture of :elden ring shadow of the erdtree music, hollow knight music and music from the man the myth the legend @Alexroe ! Don't you dare go hollow friends!!! The discord for the channel: discord.gg/xv8t5bFSzd
They are %100 twin siblings, the butterfly theory is on-point... and I don't know any Elden-Loreist who (so far) disputes this. What's crazy is Melina says she was 'born' at the foot of the Erdtree and her mother is 'inside' the Erdtree. So this would suggest that Messmer was also born at the foot of the Erdtree. I think it was the infant Erdtree they were born at the 'foot' of, because Marika became a 'god' in the land of shadow (or Scadu lol ). So the Neuman must be able the Asexually reproduce by being Radagon and Marika both in the same body and when they planted the Erdtree they also reproduced for the first time. One child, Messmer was plagued by a dark serpent so he will do the killing and the other, Melina... would be the one who governs death and becomes the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Who would become too powerful and had to be defeated by Maliketh so he could seal away the Rune of Death.... I get too into this theory crafting stuff, but I love it. 🍻 Cheers mate ! !
Maybe the born at the foot of the Erdtree is less literal? Maybe her new life “Melina” was born here? What you’re talking about to do with the numen asexually reproducing is giving heavy Athena mind baby vibes lmao! Thanks so much too!
@@theemeraldgecko310 there's so much we don't know concerning Melina's early life as the Gloam-eyed Queen and her eventual defeat at the hands of maliketh. Who is Markia's "Shadow" which seals away the rune of death.
The Gloam-eyed Queen is the most enigmatic figure in all of Elden Ring to me. I hope if there's ever a continuation, another game, movie, anime, whatever... that they explore this further.
I really doubt the gloam eyed queen is Melina. For one, it wouldn’t make much sense for Marika’s daughter to be the gloam eyed queen, it’s heavily implied that the Godskins were a faction of people pre dating Marika’s ascension that controlled death who Marika has to defeat very early on to establish the golden order. So Melina would of had to of been born, grown up, somehow controlled the death rune, and then establish the godskin apostles and all of their traditions/culture, all before Marika established the golden order and sealed away death. Based on how Melina’s spirit looks, she probably wasn’t even that old when she died. Secondly, Melina says she was born at the foot of the erd tree where her mother gave her purpose. She kind of talks about this like she’s grateful for this, but found her own purpose in life. If she was the gloam eyed queen, I’d expect her to just hate Marika and want revenge or something, but Melina just seems pretty neutral toward Marika. Lastly, It’s heavily implied that her “purpose” has to do with being used as the kindling maiden, not anything to do with death or black flames. Melina also never uses any black flame incantations or shows any connection to the godskins. So her role of Marika’s daughter and kindling maiden kind of seems to clash with the gloam eyed queen role in a way that makes me feel they definitely aren’t the same person.
@@donovan4222 The line about being born at the foot of the tree when her mother gave her purpose isn't necessarily literal. It can be figurative, as in 'When she killed me, I got a new, bodiless life, and a new purpose...to destroy all she's built.'
@@danpitzer765 Yeah I totally agree, but I would expect her character to have a lot more resentment toward Marika if she was the gloam eyed queen. I think the only connection Melina has to destined death is that her soul is destined to die to burn the erd tree.
@@lBorosDavidl The fact that she’s so central to the story but also mysterious is part of the appeal. The most info we get is from Melina’s own dialogue and the blade of calling description.
Is not criminal its part of life, its not marvel, you wont get to know everything, some shit never gets revelead ever or until a new game. People went years without knowing who was Gwyn lost son, we still dont know who lady tomoe from Sekiro is, and many other things, thats part of fantasy world building lol
I hope y’all know this is the not the last of Elden Ring Lol😂😂 if Dark souls got 3 titles and was less popular than Elden ring in sales , then you can bet your sweet silly ass that they will at LEAST give us one last Title with a DLC or just one last title but I’m general I don’t believe this is the actual end of Elden ring since we haven’t got Gloamed Eye Queen Content and much more
It would make sence in the why Messmer was left sealed in the land of shadow. Marika has a death phobia, and she did the same with the flame of ruin. If she saw that her childs has flames that could kill, she would absolutely seal them too.
Would be interesting to see if Messmer’s flame also kills gods, or maybe it’s directly opposite like other twins where in it aids gods? I’m not sure! Definitely agree with you’re point though!
i think she did the same with Melina, as the Gloam-Eyed Queen she grew too powerful and Destined Death had to be sealed away... vis-à-vis Maliketh, her 'Shadow'.
@@SuperMaster000X someone on Kosmos’ stream posited that Messmer’s flame actually only exists, they way it does now, due to Marika sealing the Rune of Death, and subsequently posited that THIS results in the Shadowy nature of his Red Flames. They said that this is also the reason why there is SO MUCH undeath in the Land of Shadow (I.e - spirit graves, the shadow fodder enemies of the Land of Shadow, etc.). Messmer’s Flame, influenced by the sealing of Death, is the reason why there is perpetual and unwavering death in the Land of Shadow. It’s literally Hell. No one can truly die. They burn in the Flames of Messmer, but still are forced to remain alive with the Flame’s shadow. Forcing them to live a perpetual life of death
“My purpose was given to me by my mother,inside the Erdtree,long ago. I won’t let anyone speak ill of that,not even you” she LITERALLY tells you she’s one of Marikas kids in the base game if you’re doing the Frenzy path. Why does no one talk about this?
I personally thought it was a misdirect, and that we would find out that she was Marika's sister, and she is referring to their shared mother. But that theory seems definitively dead now!
I still think Melina is the grace from Rannis soul. Ranni is still in a technical way Merikas kid. She was born in death and not really alive. Ranni wanted to remove the part of her that was bound by grace. Killing her body wouldn't have killed the grace in the soul. If bringing back death was the task rannis finger gave her, then she would have the task of the gloam eyed queen. The fingers gave the gloam eyed queen that greater purpose, there's no reason it couldn't be the objective of another.
Also another thing to prove the cocoon of the empyrean is Miquella, the ring on the hand is the same ring as the ring on his hand in the flashback memory cutscene at the end.
Was it you’re comment who said that before? I did have it in the video, but I cut it out because I thought you meant in the boss fight and for the life of my couldn’t see it! Thank you for clarifying where it was, I know I said this before but this was an amazing catch!
@@theemeraldgecko310 I might have but I wouldnt remember. It might have been someone else though, but I know I noticed it when BonfireVN made a video showing the model of Young Miquella and comparing it with his other models
@@bombthing idk why people would think it’s Godwyn when it’s stated his body was buried at the roots of the erdtree and you can visit it at Deeproot depths
@@draw2death421 No, none of Miquella's models are connected to Morgott, though the withered arm is similar to Morgott's corpse arm, it dorsnt have the same accessories
Crackpot add-on: What if Messmer’s Serpent manifested unexpectedly in some way that harmed Melina, leading to the chain of events we follow in the game like sealing him with Grace and shipping him off to do war?
That theory about an accidental outburst from Messmer holds a lot of dramatic weight, even if there’s so little actual evidence for it. His brooding, melancholic nature would have far deeper roots than just the bloodshed he inflicted on the Hornsent. And about the hair - nobody ever mentions that Miquella has straight-up luscious blonde locks just like his mother. Messmer and Malenia inherited his red hair, but Miquella got his mother’s. So I think Melina’s off-pink can fit in that grouping too
He’s honestly such a tragic character and as time goes by he just gets more and more tragic! That’s actually a good point!! I hadn’t thought of it like that!
Imma drop this here Its from the Ingame description of Messmers Orb and I am pretty sure there has to be a reason why its there since the fight against him doesn’t necessarily show this behavior Messmer despised his own fire. Time and time again he hoped to rid himself of it, but ever did it burn.
In his Orb description it states "he hated his fire" and wanted to get rid of it. so there is certainly something there that has made him hate a part of himself. This could very well be what happened!
I know right! I was so exited about it, then I was doing some brushing up on the exact words in the description and found out it got removed in the last patch!
@@theemeraldgecko310 Hey, I just wanted to point out to you that the item description for Messmer's Kindling was not removed from the game. There was a hoax post going around that got a lot of traction, and since people are completing the DLC and have burnt the Kindling Tree, they can't confirm it since they don't have the item anymore. Just want to make sure you know it's still there
Young Miquella in the final cutscene of the DLC is wearing the same ring thats on the hand thats coming out of the cocoon. The person inside the cocoon was Miquella. Pretty much confirmed.
Hmmmmm if this is so then 2 conclusions Mesmer was given iris of grace to keep something dark at bay Then Malina was given the other to block her from receiving grace? For what reason should she be shunned from receiving grace? Hmmm
@@FadedClutch it deleted my reply... Literally this and people just can't let go of the gloam eyed queen theory. She's gone Marikas offed her Melina isn't her lol
It's because of people's expectations with Godwyn and the Gloam-eyed Queen. I had no expectations because I knew everything couldn't be answered with one DLC. I am happy with all the lore we got in SOTE.
@@MikaMikaWhateverThere was a little bit of Godwyn lore in some of the catacombs, but I can see why that would be disappointing. I think a big part of Godwyn's role in this story is that everyone wants the Golden Boy to be relevant, an inspiration. But he's just not. That's a common theme in GRRM's stories, I feel this character comes in large part from him.
Also think about this. The GEQ’s sword is located at the bottom of Radahn’s divine tower being guarded by a Godskin Apostle. Radahn and Messmer were also close friends.
@@theemeraldgecko310 "Sacred sword of the Gloam-Eyed Queen who controlled the Godskin Apostles before her defeat at the hands of Maliketh." I'm curious why you'd would think Maliketh is capable of defeating anything without killing it. I may missed something
Didn’t melina also state she was born at the base of the erd tree. Its possibly she was rebirth by marika after she killed gloam eyed queen. It would potentially explain messmer curse and melina strong desire to burn the tree
I like where you're going with this. Staying with the concept of duality, i think Melina had the ability to freely change from herself to the Gloam-Eyed Queen. I think she - as the Gloam-Eyed Queen - was imprisoned in that secret chamber where we find the Blade of Calling. In that item's description, it says that the bearer will eventually meet Destined Death, the power the Gloam-Eyed Queen possesses. It is possible that Messmer attempted to free his sister, purposefully burning her body in an attempt to free her soul. But Merika stopped the plot, banished Messmer to the Shadow Lands, and rebirthed Melina's soul in the Erdtree, but didn't restore her memories. Melina herself says that her mother spoke to and raised her from within tbe Erdtree, but she doesnt remember much of anything else. That could be a spicy twist. Also explains more of Messmer's hate towards Merika...
I wonder if burning the erdtree would be similar to the sin of all sins, almost like biting the apple of eden, and considering messmer covers the serpent symbolism, I wonder if melina represents the apple, "born at the foot of the erdtree" which is when her journey began to seek a champion to help guide her to burn it, as if she is the most important catalyst to this event.
Imho, Melina is the GEQ and she got all the way to the foot of the Erdtree before being stopped by Maliketh. Perhaps both her and Messmer where afflicted with a serpentine curse (see the theories about Eiglay being Marika's first consort). Marika thought that if Melina could do this then Messmer could do it too, so Messmer got exiled so he would be allowed to live. Then, Melina had her memory erased and she was not given back her body since the curse lived inside her flesh. This was Marika's way of saving both her children. Yet, since Melina had become infamous as the GEQ, she had to start a new life. The only thing she was allowed to know is that Marika was her mother, so at least she would know she was loved by her. Melina's arc in the game is actually an ironic redemption arc. She does finally burn the tree down, but she does so not out of rebellion against Marika, but out of love for her so our player can free her.
@@assasinsbear I really doubt the gloam eyed queen is Melina. For one, it wouldn’t make much sense for Marika’s daughter to be the gloam eyed queen, it’s heavily implied that the Godskins were a faction of people pre dating Marika’s ascension that controlled death who Marika has to defeat very early on to establish the golden order. So Melina would of had to of been born, grown up, somehow controlled the death rune, and then establish the godskin apostles and all of their traditions/culture, all before Marika established the golden order and sealed away death. Based on how Melina’s spirit looks, she probably wasn’t even that old when she died. Secondly, Melina says she was born at the foot of the erd tree where her mother gave her purpose. She kind of talks about this like she’s grateful for this, but found her own purpose in life. If she was the gloam eyed queen, I’d expect her to just hate Marika and want revenge or something, but Melina just seems pretty neutral toward Marika. Lastly, It’s heavily implied that her “purpose” has to do with being used as the kindling maiden, not anything to do with death or black flames. Melina also never uses any black flame incantations or shows any connection to the godskins. So her role of Marika’s daughter and kindling maiden kind of seems to clash with the gloam eyed queen role in a way that makes me feel they definitely aren’t the same person. I think Melina is a parallel to Mesmer, while Mesmer dedicates his life to Marika’s purpose and uses his flame to burn the erdtree’s enemies, Melina finds her own purpose and uses her flame to burn the erdtree itself.
@@donovan4222 @donovan4222 I have been resistant to the theory that the GEQ is Melina for a while before recently starting to believe in it. For me it was also an issue that she didn't use blackflame and the fact she uses the minor erdtree incantation made me wonder if she wasn't some kind of Marika clone (similar to Milicent). Personally, what made me believe she might actually be the GEQ was replaying the game. I noticed that the two first times we get introduced to her, she is seen with the hood over her head and only her mouth showing, while a circular brooch is pinning her cloak. This design matches the appearance of the Godskins very closely. This kind of detail must be intentional knowing the level of artistic intent found in the game. So either it's misdirection or Melina must have some connection to the GEQ. Then, when you consider she is most likely Messmer's sister, it follows she would be born with a body. Marika can revive people, she revives the player over and over. You could say, well, maybe she needs to be a spirit to help the player, so she can't have a body. But to me it feels cold of Marika not to give her daughter her body back even if there is a greater purpose.
@@assasinsbear That’s really interesting I never noticed the thing with her hour and outfit! I can see why so many fans theorize her as the GEQ, she does have some connections to destined death with her dialogue in the frenzied flame ending, and the blade of calling description (Melina’s dagger which looks suspiciously like the black knives that killed Godwyn). That is definitely the strongest evidence for her being connected to the GEQ. My personal theory that I think is most likely is that the Hornsent Grandam is the gloam eyed queen. First, she’s an empyrean who predates Marika, so she fits with the timeline better I believe. If you look at her outfit, it’s also a bit similar with her eyes covered by both her hood and her horns, and a sort of old tattered cloak that she wears. Second, she constantly talks about Marika’s betrayal and calls her a “strumpet” (prostitute) almost like she is bitter toward her, and they have some kind of history beyond just what happened to the Hornsent. Thats the type of attitude I would expect the GEQ to have toward Marika, as opposed to Melina who is more neutral toward Marika. Third, we know the Hornsent had the opposite views about death to the golden order. They embraced death as part of a natural cycle of life and rebirth. So if would make sense for her to be a rival to Marika for godhood that wielded the power of death who Marika had to defeat to establish her golden order. The only thing holding me back on this theory is I can’t find any connection between grandam and the godskins. But it checks a lot of boxes and makes a lot of sense to me.
@@donovan4222 it is a pretty good theory too. It would also make sense why all these Godskin weapons and the Godslaying Greatsword share a spiral pattern like we see in Hornsent buildings and incantations.
@@assasinsbear Great point, that also implies to me that the Godskins pre date Marika and were probably in charge of handling the death rune for a long time before she sealed it away.
I sometimes disagree with your conclusions, but I found myself enjoying many of your videos. They're well edited, the informations are perfectly summarized and clearly presented. Subscribed! Keep up the good work man
I think that’s honestly the best way to go about watching these videos, disagreeing with something and then discussing the alternatives opens up so many further avenues!! Thanks so much it truly means the world to me!!
You telling me to not subscribe unless I liked the content made me instantly subscribe without watching a thing yet. Nice to have you be reasonable about it and not acting entitled to support.. after finishing the video you did great and I will enjoy more of it. Work well done!
Thank you so much! I always find it a little silly people doing it fully at the beginning when the people haven’t even watched the video yet! Thanks again means a lot!
theres a huge misconception that the description of the kindling had been changed i have the item currently after the most recent it patch the description is still the same
There is still somethings unexplained. A few things: 1. Why do Ranni and Melina share the same eye tatoo and knowledge of Torrent? 2. If Melina IS the GEQ(as opposed to just connected to the GEQ), why is it that never at any point in the game does she ever warn us about the Godskins the same way she has the Frenzied Flame? We all know the GEQ is like a mother to them. 3. If Destined Death was a threat to Marika’s order, why didnt or couldnt Marika lock Melina in the realm of Shadow like she did her brother Mesmer? Why is she still trotting about in the Lands Between?
the first thing im not really sure but my theory is that she would become the next gloam eyed queen and imitate melina under marikas likings like ranni thought so the rune of death was stolen from melina and ranni never received anything and was betrayed
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else, but I just noticed - doesn't Messmer's eye look like an Iris of Grace item that you pick up later in the DLC? And Melina's secret ending eye, it also looks similar to the Eye of Occult, does it not? I wonder...
Definitely see where you’re coming from! Maybe it’s an altered iris of gold? Made by Marika herself? Messmers eye holds or of similarity’s with Marika’s runes from the dlc!
The Beast Eye given by gurranq is the same shade of purple as melinas, and the claw marks on melinas eye could be representative of Maliketh taking her one of her Gloam Eyes. I think afterward, maliketh uses the Red and black flames to burn her body away, but not her soul, as only frenzied and ghost flame sre described as burning souls away. This fight could have happened at the foot of the Erdtree, where we see scorch marks, possibly from her black flame. There, her spirit form is given new purpose.
idk how yall arent subscribed and humoring these theories, it helps actually piece together stuff unlike others that just read lore descriptions in order, not that thats bad.
Okay, so my theory is that if Melina was, in fact, the GEC, Messmer might've been called on to kill Melina. Maliketh, as little more than a beast, had plausible deniability, but Messmer was then branded a traitor for following Marika's orders
@@stampede274 if this was true, I would definitely of expected Morgott to name Mesmer among the “traitors” also, Mesmer doesn’t seem to have been branded as anything. Mesmer isn’t known or mentioned by anyone outside the land of shadow, it’s more likes he’s been hidden away by Marika.
@@donovan4222 or he's simply released from his prison after Messmer had already been sent away. Also, even if Morgott knew of Messmer, there's no way he would name him a traitor when Messmer obediently went to a crusade he would never return from as per ordered by Marika herself. The guy didn't even have great rune to begin with (which further show that he's sent away before the shattering) so he has no right to be a lord (not that he'd want to either).
Melina also participated in the Night of Black Knives as a demigod killer. Probably soon afterward, using the skins of the dead demigods collected during the Night to empower her godskin apostle army, she began her rebellion as the Gloam-eyed Queen but was soundly defeated by Maliketh in the end. Likely her burning came after the defeat.
@@rclaws3230 That doesn’t make sense with the timeline though, the night of black knives happened AFTER death was sealed away by Marika and the GEQ was defeated by Maliketh. We know this because Godwyn was the first demigod to die and Ranni had to steal a piece of death from Maliketh to forge the black knives.
@@donovan4222 You might be right, I may be forgetting where the GEQ rebellion sits on the timeline. Do you know off-hand what lore bit places the GEQ chronologically? But Melina did participate in the NOBK, that's pretty clear.
@@rclaws3230 The gloam eyed queen was the leader of the godskins and wielded the destined death rune part of the Elden ring. Marika’s main goal was to create a world without death, so she commanded Maliketh to defeat the gloam eyed queen, and had him in charge of guarding destined death in Farum Azula, a place outside of time, so death wouldn’t exist in the lands between. Since Marika had to do this to establish the golden order, and it’s implied death hadn’t existed for a long time…it had to of happened pretty early in the timeline in my opinion. Like one of the first things she did after becoming a god.
To add on, I think the bird symbol on melinas eye is significant if she is the geq. Messmers eye is infested by the base serpent god influence. Melinas eye the twinbird, the mother of deathbirds. I think the snake and bird juxtaposition is interesting, especially considering the presence of the rot god within malenias eyes eventually. It's almost as if in marikas offspring, the old former outer gods of old times can manifest and take root. The formless mother manifests and shows it self to mogh in some capacity as well.
A few days ago while replaying the base game I saw the cutscene where Melina's other eye opens. Her hair not only turns Black, but it also has white stripes. I didn't notice that before, even tho I've played the game so many times.
Yeah, plus there's the fact in the Lord of Frenzied Flame ending, the all the color in Melina's right eye, which has a sort of golden color to it prior to the Frenzied ending, has since faded into an off-white afterwards, almost like she's become blind or at least near-blind in her right eye or something. Or maybe that is the Grace of Gold having left her entirely. I wonder...
@theemeraldgecko310 Marika never feared Messmer, she hid him away to protect him. Both loved each other, but now is Marika captured inside the erdtree, so everyone in the shadowlands are thinking that they were abandoned by her. Messmers last words, are words of desparation, he feels betrayed, maybe because he sees a faint glimmer of grace in us, so basicaly Marikas guidance. After long time not hearing anything from his mother and then seeing a graceless tarnished under her guidance must be like betrayal.
From his remembrance : A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow. Hidden away-keeping company with the original sin, and a hatred that would not be confined.
@@KindredSunlight "malevolent snake writhed within" - not so great for messmer or his body, possession by evil "plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace" - a drastic measure to seal away the malevolent snake "secret away her child" - not discarded or banned, but secret away and her "child" - direct reference to motherhood, stereotypical = love, care, protection "keeping company" - not his hatred, hatred of the hornsent people. 1. he called Marika "Mother" till the end, only in his last words he looses faith in her 2. he fought consciously a graceless war for his mother 3. he stayed true to his duty, even after he lost contact to her "Yet...my purpose standeth unchanged. Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death. In the embrace of Messmer's flame."
I wish we also got a glintstone butterfly to shed light on why Ranni is an Empyrean. Since there is no such thing I may start thinking she's a jar saint
Deleted my original comment because I completed misread this lmao Totally get where you’re coming from it really is weird! But probably also intentional!
@@Wonderbread91 Ranni isn't cursed like Malenia, Miquella, Messmer and Melina. I don't think the butterflies are an empyrean thing, I think its a "born of one god asexually" thing
@@theemeraldgecko310 There is a theory going around about that. The theory says that the butterflies are a bioproduct of the strange relationship between radagon and Marika because theyre the same body so when in some way messmer was born from marika and radagon almost incestuos relationship the butterfly derived from that action, the same with melina etc etc, is like when in nuclear reactors you divide the same atom into two part and it creates energy, the atom is the body divided in marika and radagon the energy produced is the son in this example messmer and the radioactive waste are the butterflies
I get what you're saying! Saying that though I get why so much has been around the femboy miquallestor but there is honestly so much lore in this DLC!!!
Great vid mate. We’re here for the wild speculative and fun interpretations of the lore. You deliver. Who do you think is the figure we see burning during the crusade in the trailer of the DLC? I don’t know if people have figured this out yet. Cheers!
Thanks so much Oscar!!! Honestly my theory ages ago was that was the gloam eyed queen, though I’m not sure now! There was just something with the spiral weapon that seemed so gloamy lol
@@theemeraldgecko310 yeah I thought the same. Maybe it was Melina who knows. But yeah, I thought someone would have figured this out by now. I’m not that good at finding shit so of course I wasn’t going to find it my play through. The DLC was fun though. Keep pumping out great content man. 🔥
I think that's meant to be Romina, Saint of the Bud. The weapon she's holding looks similar to the Poleblade of the Bud, and its description pretty much describes what we see in that trailer: "Once, in the crumbling, burning church, Romina held the bud in speechless silence. That bud would become her blade."
@@Solibrae thanks for pointing this out! It was bugging me, but yes this makes sense. Of course I killed this person and didn’t even look twice at the item description. Good eye!
@theemeraldgecko310 I only suggest this because each of her kids has some sort of affliction. And who else would the gods call a queen, if she didn't have death at their Finger tips
If you look at the pattern on the Godslayer Sword it looks verry similar with some spiral patterns in Inir-Elim, not to say that the sword itself is a spiral. My theory is that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is not Melina, but her power, or her godlslaying flame was sealed inside her, probably her eye, similar to how Marika sealed Mesmers serpent with an eye-seal. So when we chose the frenzied flame ending, since there is no more Greater Will or grace the seal is broken, the power of the Gloam-Eyed queen activates within her, vowing to deliver the Tarnished destined death. So who was the Gloam-Eyed Queen? She was the Empyrean of the Hornsent, she was above the Gods, since she wielded the power to slay one. I guess the hornsent had a belief system centered around obtaining Godhood or Sainthood, and somehow the Gloam-Eyed queen would oversee and arbitrer this process, so that the ascended Gods do not become corupted and inflict malice upon the world.
This is amazing! I am such a fan of this theory! The final part makes so much more sense than you might think! The hornsent are fans of natural order, destined death is literal natural selection!!
@theemeraldgecko310 This is the only explanation for the item descriptions to make logical sense because we know that Marika ordered Maliketh to slay the Gloam-Eyed Queen, so why do that if it was her own daughter? And we know Melina is fiercely loyal to the Erdtree and Marika since throughout the game all she does is her duty as a Finger Maiden, and if we chose the Frenzied Flame ending she vows to kill us. So the only way this makes sense is that the power of the gloam-eyed queen is sealed within her eye.
@@alexgeorgescu2122 We actually see a Hornsent empyrean in the DLC, remember the Hornsent Grandam? I think she is the best candidate for being the gloam eyed queen. She keeps talking about Marika’s “betrayal” and calls her a “strumpet” which is an old English word for a prostitute basically.
I just had a thought and needed to share it. When Messmer takes out his eye and we look into his eye socket, the ring of flames around his socket looks similar to the Dark Sign from Dark Souls. And when he said "Abyssal Serpent", it made me think of the Primordial Serpents, Kaathe, and Frampt. I doubt there's a connection, but it was something I noticed and thought it was neat.
What if the "outburst" you spoke about was Messmer's reaction to Marika asking him to go on the crusade? The fact that he accidentally killed his own sister probably drove him to agree to be the one to take the blame and follow his mother's orders out of guilt for what he did. He saw himself as the villain, so he became that villain.
Has anyone else noticed that the woman in the haligtree Melania arena looks just like st Trina. So maybe it's my headcannon but I feel like Trina went to the haligree area, grew into the tree and began to grow miquellas adult body to put his plans into motion for the dlc
My theory is that melina and messmir are the same person, same as st. Trina and Miquola are the same, and radagon and merika are the same. My theory is that, similarly to st. Trina, she is a part of messmir that he cast off himself. This part being his feeling of hate and betrayal, but also his love for his mother. He seems numb and kind of juat like a robot. It would make sense that he had to cast her off of him to continue the fight against the hornsent rather than have those feelings boil over and have him turn against his mother.
I really like this theory! I do think he does have some semblance of love and emotion though, he does seem so tired in the boss fight! This could also explain why Melina seems to have a case of good old Amnesia!!
But Saint Trina and "Miquella" are not the same person. And that's been confirmed as well. St Trina is just a part of Miquella that was abandoned. St Trina isn't a person. It's the "nice" part of Miquella. It's his loving side!!
@insanifiable to add onto this, St. Trina and radagon both represent something that each wants but can't obtain. For St. Trina is the most obvious. Miquellas childish need for love and affect while only being able to attain it through his rune. Something that St. Trina seemingly has no issue with. Radagon is trickier, too, pinpoint. I would say radagon is merikas rage for the destruction of her people, but also the love of her people. The last part of her keeping her human. We see merika not fully abandon radagon, which is what brought about her shattering the elden ring, her wanting a family, and her cursing them. The reason why radagon is holding onto the elden ring is that he is terrified his children will die from the greater wills rage. Terrified that it would not send an emissary but distruction for the lands between and all his children.
Maybe i'm wrong here, but the way Melina seems to "harness" the flames from the giants forge is a huge indicator to how Messmer "accidentally" killed her. It seems to me that they might have tried to work together and combine powers to destroy the eardtree but inso doing she essentially self immolated with the help of her brother. This would, in my mind, be also plenty of explanation as to why he was banished to the shadow realm.
It would also make sense if messmer was asked to kill her flesh, doing so brought out his curse and he was banished for it, but it was all part of Melinas plan to overthrow the golden order. Messmer realizing too late he'd been betrayed by her.
@@theemeraldgecko310 It kinda does, the Gloam Eyed Queen was defeated by Maliketh under Marika's order(i don't remember in which items, but it is there), and then Melina was given purpose by her own mother even tho she was burned and bodyless... when Marika disappeared cause of what we know happened, Melina decided to find a new purpose. Either she was burned by Maliketh or her body got sealed away when the rune was, which could explain why in the Frenzied Flame ending she actually walks to the whistle instead of simply appearing from thin air. Messmer was seen as a threat by Marika, and likely that was the same with Melina(Gloam Eyed Queen) as she literally embodied Destined Death(Messmer's Kindling says his younger sister also bore a vision of fire, and most likely in her case, it was the black fire of Destined Death)
The Gloam Eyed Queen was defeated by Malikith, so i can see Messmer killing her, cause it doesn't say anywhere Malikith killed her, he only defeated her
I love the deep div into the identities of these two amazing characters; you did such a great job with your analysis. I don't think that Melina and Mesmer were twins at birth (there's an item description that heavily implies Melina is the younger sister), but I 100% agree that they are twins in nature. Once again, great job on the video! You earned my subscription, and I can't wait to see more of your lore videos.
Honestly could definitely see this being the case, I just sort of thought of it how in our world we call twins younger or older based on the timeframe they are born, but you’re idea is probably more on point! Thanks so much really means the world!!
Messmer says that the abyssal serpent was shorn of grace, meaning it previously had it. if melina is the gloam-eyes queen, in charge of destined death, then that sets up messmer to have been the bearer of a holy serpent. perhaps after marika had to seal away destined death, she scorned the serpent and took its light
Melina obviously has a GEQ connection, but there are two things that get overlooked that I find substantial 1) the godskin nobles/apostates (the children? of the gloam eyed Queen) have serpent features 2) Melina wears the same traveling maiden clothes as Millicent who we know is an “offshoot” of Malenia, and Millicent and Gowry call Malenia Millicent’s mother. So Melina’s “mother” could be the GEQ or whoever she is an “offshoot” of. Malenia and Millicent both also seem to have spawned with a purpose that they don’t know everything about.
Idk after this recent playthrough, I’m somewhat convinced that Melina and Ranni came from the same body. Maybe it’s too obvious, but Ranni’s body appears to have been burned. You never see them in the same place. The apparition’s eyes line up appropriately. The apparition looks like Melina. They both eventually come to the point where they want to end the world and bring on a new age. Melina’s closed eye is blue. That said, I’m having a hard time giving a crap anymore lol. Fromsoft’s storytelling is annoying, IMO, and is built as a sandbox. Another thing is Miquella’s motivations. Did everyone forget the eclipse and the desire to resurrect Godwyn? I haven’t seen the theorists mention this in their Shadow of the Erdtree speculation. Seems to me that it was connected to Miquella’s desire to have Radahn be under his control, and why Radahn was bothering to “hold back the stars” in the first place. What about this vow they had? I think that Radahn may have promised to bring about the eclipse (whatever that means) and decided not to follow through with it for some reason. Then Miquella sends Malenia to kill Radahn so he can force him to do his bidding. I haven’t heard of another good reason for Miquella to have such a strong interest in Radahn. Anyway, the “real story” will probably never exist and will just be deconstructed claptrap til the end of time.
Smouldering butterflies have to be Melina's butterfly. Melina may have sacrificed her body as kindling previously, or she rebelled against Marika and had Messmer kill her (but the capital has plenty of ash in it before we burn the erdtree, so there was a prior burning that could have just been from the dragon's attack, or maybe something else happened). And she said her mother gave her a task at the Erdtree. His kindling references her "Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire." And they are both kindling - Messmer had an abyssal serpent behind his eye, and Melina's hides destined death. Her weapon description has: "...retaining the power of its former owner, the kindling maiden, is still apparent. The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death." She also has the spell that we get from Marika's village (Shaman Villiage) in SotE. It's pretty certain she's Marika's child, and most likely the one referred to as Messmer's sister. Exactly what led her body to be burned is still open, I think.
While I love all the lore revelations in the DLC, I am very confused about the timeline…I get the impression that Mesmer and the shadow lands have been sealed away for a very long time…given that no one mentions Mesmer in the lands between and there’s very little evidence he was ever even there. But then they revealed that Mesmer knew Radahn like a brother, knows who the tarnished are, and was apparently approved of by Rennala/Rellana when he went on his crusade…all that seems to imply Mesmer was around at least until after the Liurnian wars…so how is that possible? Makes my brain spin
Well from some tries of making the timeline make sense: 1. Mesmer and Gaius is older than Radahn. Mesmer has radagons red hair. This implies that he is a child of Radagon/Marika from before both Radagons marriage to Rennalla and Marikas Marriage to Godfrey or that Radagons genes can be inherited by a child of Marika and Godfrey which might not be impossible given the weirdness around Radagon/Marika. 2. Since Radahn knew Mesmer then Mesmers crusade happened after the end of the liurnian wars and the marriage between Radagon and Renalla. 3. We know from the offical story of the conquests that both Liurnia and the ancient dragons managed to get peace agreements and alliances everyone else offically got conquered. The final war/conquest of Godfreys host was the fire giants and after that Marika disbanded that army by banishing the original tarnished. 4. For some reason Mesmers penal legion was sent instead of Godfreys army to exterminate the hornsent. It could be because that war or maybe it was a civil war happened after the banishment of Godfrey since after Godfreys banishment the crucible knights and the crucible lost their place in erdtree culture, this could have been the event where it happened. It could instead have been so that Godfrey refused to massacre the hornsent since the land of shadow could have been his homeland since the crucible incantations and the divine beast incantations like the feather ones seem closely linked. 5. I think the reason that so little is known about Mesmer is in large due to Rykard. Rykards vulcano manor is on the surface a beautifull manor to be a guest at but the walls hide secret passages leading to vast prison complexes full of torture victims. Some speculate that this torture kidnapping of guests was the beginning of Rykards betrayal of the Erdtree but I think he did it for the Erdtree. Rykards job in my opinion was to find and torture information out of potential heretics and traitors to the erdtree. So Rykard tracked down and destroyed heretical beliefs but he was therefore exposed to them that is why he knew the most about serpent magic and lore. He covered it up leaving only scant few relics like the serpent sacrifice curved sword or the formless serpent assassin bow outside his personal controll. 6. there we have a theory of the censure of Mesmer, all serpent magic knowledge was destroyed by Rykards inquisition and the serpent was turned into a symbol of despicable enemies of the erdtree in colloseum fights symbolised by the gladiators with serpent armor that were "the bad guys" against other gladiators. Might have been easy for the arena institution who was aligned with godfreys brutal martial ways to decide to paint Mesmer as a villain if Godfrey was sympathetic to the hornsent that Mesmer killed. Hope this wall of text isn't unwelcome I felt inspired to see if I could make the timeline make sense for myself and answer your question at the same time.
@@simonwahlen7150 Not unwelcome at all those were all good points and cleared up a lot. I never thought of the idea that Godfrey would want to leave because of what happened in the shadowlands, or maybe he was banished for disagreeing with Marika? Either way that makes sense. Marika basically sacrificed a bunch of people to attain godhood at the divine gate, joined with Godfrey to conquer the lands between, then after that was done wanted to go back to her original sin and cover it up, as well as get revenge on her original enemies…Godfrey refused/disagreed, him and the tarnished got banished…so she chose Messmer instead, and sealed him in the shown lands. That also explains why Mesmer would be so surprised to see tarnished, because when he left the lands between the tarnished had just been banished…he didn’t know they would return/had returned.
Well. Melina obviously was killed in flesh but not spirit. Which suggests whoever had done it, had the power to give Death. Even if it is only a partial Death. Ranni had to perform a complex exchange to get the same. Where while Godwyn was killed in Spirit only, she was killed in Flesh only. This suggests something had to have happened to allow that outcome. So however it occurred it is related to Death. Not just fire I suspect. Though I suppose it could be that the Dark Fire of Messmer could perhaps have some property that allows it to reduce flesh to something basic and inert.
That was my sort of pet theory! Twins seem to have similar yet different powers, maybe he rune of death powers of Melina/The gloam eyed queen, is present in some similar god slaying way in Messmers flame, I mean they do look similar don’t they?
I've been consuming videos of ER lore and finding channels to watch and got to you. I really like how you present things about the lore so thanks for that. One thing that i can't seem to get and find is videos about Marika offspring(hope you do a video about that)....And what a mean is their order of birth and interactions between them. Who came first??Morgot,Mohg and Godwyn or Melania&Miquella??
Thanks so much this really means the world to me! To me it’s always seemed like Messmer/ maybe Melina, then morgott and mohg, then Godwyn, then Melania and Miquella :)
@@theemeraldgecko310 I think that is about right. Having omen twins after killing off so many hornsent seems like a twist of revenge on Marika for the crusade.
I like this theory, as it presents a reasonable alternative to the story. Although, there are two main problems with it: 1) We know from the item descriptions of godskin and Blackflame items, that the GEQ was felled in battle by Maliketh, who wielded the rune of death as his blade, in response to the threat of her Godskin Apostasy. It would make sense that her body was destroyed by destined death, and that her soul managed to survive given her familiarity with destined death, and fire in general. 2) The Erdtree has been burned before. It’s likely that it burned when it was called the Great Tree in the age of the crucible, and would explain why there are ashes all around the elevator leading to the forbidden lands. The exact time period where this occurred is not clear at all, and while Messmer could still have been the one to burn it, it wouldn’t make sense for Melina to be there.
I don’t know bois. Godskins have a serpentine feature and abilities to them, they fight like snakes. If anything, I think the abyssal serpent inside Messmers eye is the sealed version of the Gloam Eyed Queen or at least a portion of her power.
They do have serpentine features, but snakes also pop up on the coffin like ships that are crashed, which im thinking are the shamans... maybe snakes are just something very much linked to the shaman/numens home land? And that has transferred to Marika's first borns?
@@theemeraldgecko310 I don’t know. Rykard feeding himself to a serpent in that case is a case of irony that Marika probably felt very embarrassed about. My question is, how exactly are these Numens travelling via coffins across some vast ocean. Almost sounds like they were bunched up into coffins and then cast away, cause whatever land they were on before, the people over there didn’t want them.
Nothing, absolutely NOTHING in both the base game and the DLC implies Messmer has anything to do with Melina's death. Brother and sister? Absolutely. By a deferent parent then the other children of Marika? Almost certainly. Fratricide? Pulled out of the left field. Any "evidence" as presented is purely interpretative and circumstantial.
I do agree that Melina is Mesmer’s sister/twin (the butterflies pretty much confirmed it) and their is way to much circumstantial evidence that point at Melina being the GeQ. I don’t think Mesmer is responsible for burning Melina. Just doesn’t seem in his character and if anything Melina had the stronger flame. Being able to threaten the gods and all. What I think happened is something more like this. Marika sent Messmer in his crusade against hornsent and then blamed it on him. Melina seeing this rebels and start the godskin apostasy. It fails when malekieth defeats her and she presumably burns in her own flames. Then as a preventative measure, Marika locks Mesmer in the shadow realm (if one fire proficient child rebels so might the other). Marika takes advantage of the situation by then sending and suppressing death in the shadow lands. A sort of dump for all the things she doesn’t desire anymore. That’s my unhinged theory, thanks for your time.
I love this theory and honestly it’s so much less unhinged than you think! I really love this theory so much! An alternative theory to the whole accidental burning of Melina that fits into you’re theory, maybe Melina was defeated by Maliketh and sealed by Marika and in her weak state Messmer then had an accidental outburst and instead of Marika banishing him, he self exiles? We do hear him offer to go to the land of shadows!
@@theemeraldgecko310 okay I must ask, where does the idea of ‘Mesmers outburst’ come from? Didn’t marika put a golden seal on Mesmer precisely to avoid that? I know that there is plenty of evidence that the erdtree was burned once before but there’s nothing (to my knowledge) that proves Mesmer is responsible for it. If anything Melina is the likely culprit as she was the one that rose to arms and has the power of destined death (same power we use to burn the tree ourselves). I also don’t where it says Mesmer offer himself for exile.
I have a theory that Melina also has "another self" that was sealed away. I think she isn't the Gloam Eyed Queen but the Gloam Eyed Princess, where she was able to disappear by killing her body, but not her soul.
I literally thought this theory up as well and discussed it with other people and they think it makes sense a little bit. But they still think she’s the Gloam Eyed Queen, which wouldn’t make sense because Maliketh killed the Gloam Eyed Queen, and I don’t think Marika would ever want to harm her own children.
I have a theory. Once upon a time, a young Queen/King Marika/Radagon gave birth to two children: Mesmer and Melina. Melina like her younger sister Malenia was born an Empyrean and like Malenia, Melina was touched by an Outer God. Not the Scarlet Rot, but the Outer God of Destined Death referred to in the Deathbird description. Since Marika had already removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring, Destined Death itself had little power in the lands between and Melina was mostly free of its infulence. Also just as Malenia had to succumb to the Scarlet Rot 100% to become it's avatar, Melina would have to die to become the avatar of Destined Death. Since Marika removal of the Rune of Death, she had granted her demigod children immortality, Marika believed Melina would never die and never fall under Destined Death's power. But then something happened. Somehow, Messmer lost control of his flame and Melina was fatally injured. Though she could not fully die in soul, her body was now ash and she was "bodiless and burned". She was also now under Destined Death's power and later Destined Death would grant her a new body. Perhaps one created by the Nox through mimcry. They hate Marika as a vassal of the Greater Will and would be happy to help Melina overthrow her mother. Now Melina was reborn as the Gloam-Eyed Queen and Destined Death retrieved the Rune of Destined Death and gave it to the reborn Melina. Like her younger siblings, the Great Rune drove the reborn Melina into madness and she swore to destroy Marika and the Erd Tree dynasties in revenge. Her Empyrean womb and Nox mimicry science were combined to create the Godskin Apostles, beings that would hunt down and slay all of Marika's godly brood. Unaware of her daughter's rebirth, Marika had moved on with her life. Given the Carian presence in Messmer's crusade Marika would have married Godfrey, had the golden lineage, banished Godfrey and married Rennala as Radagon by the point she banished Messmer to the crusade. Now with Godfrey and his army banished, Messmer and his army banished, one half of her being tied down in Caria as Rennala's husband, GEQ!Melina judged this the best time to challenge Marika. She forged the Godsslayer's Greatsword to channel the power of the Rune of Death to her Godskin Apostle children so they could slay gods and began the Godskin Apostacy rebellion against Marika. Possibly with Nox assistance, more on that later. We know that Marika had other lesser and unanmed demigod children other than the named eight. We can see at least four of their soulless, headless bodies in the Wandering Mausoluem. While those four were likely killed in the Night of Black Knives along with Godwyn due to being in the same half-dead state, the Apostacy fully killed other unnamed demigods who were likely dead in body and soul. In such a weakened position, Marika sent her only remaining available asset, Maliketh to defeat the Gloam Eyed Queen and seal away the Rune of Death. He succeeded in defeating GEQ!Marika - and the description says defeated, not killed - and kills the Noxian mimcry granted flesh. He seals away the Rune, both depowering the Godskins and removing Destined Death's infulence on Malenia. Marika then places a seal on Melina's eye to seal Melina's memories And her connection to Destined Death away. Melina then believes she was "born" at this moment and like Revan in KotoR 1, has a new more useful personality installed. To cover all of this up, Marika banishes the only other person who knows Melina was the GEQ, Maliketh, away to guard the Rune of Destined Death forever. She already removed all traces of Messmer from tht Land Between, and she now does the same with Melina. Melina remained a spirit in the Erd Tree bound to her mother's will until she is dispatched to help the Tarnished in the beginning of the game. As an aside, their near success with Melina likely helped convince the Nox to work with Ranni later. Ranni however would prove to be a less loyal ally. Now let us skip to the Lord of Frenzied Flame ending. If the Tarnished embraces the Frenzied Flame and completely destroys the Erd Tree, Marika's power is completely destroyed. This unlocks the seal on Melina's if she's still alive and reveals her Gloam Eye. Her connection to Destined Death and the power of the newly freed Rune of Death reactivates and two personalities of the GEQ and Melina merge to form a new one and both sides hate the Tarnished. After all the GEQ wanted to rule the world as a god, not kill it and Melina feels betrayed. Thus they become the Adversary to the Tarnished's new form and resume their position as the avatar of Destined Death, promising to deliver Death to the Tarnished. Likely the death of the Lord of Frenzied Flame and resealing the Flame would allow the Greater Will to reshatter the world again and give it birth to a new Land. Death creates Life and Life creates Death in the eternal cycle.
I think you're onto something, but it's heavily implied that Melina is Messmer's younger sister in the description of one of the items he drops. I find it unlikely they are twins like Miquella and Malenia.
Something that can also count is the relationship with snakes. After all, the godskin nobles and apostles, followers of the gloan eyed queen, have some serpent aspects, because she wrapped them in a type of cloak for that purpose.
I note also that it seems Messmer and his army were already reviled even before the war started. This might just be because everyone knew they were off to commit genocide, or it might be because he had already done something awful, like burn his sister to death trying to destroy the Erdtree or something like that. I think it's also very possible that Melina was in on it. My initial thought playing the DLC was that she saw how Messmer was treated and then became a rebel herself. But it could be that the whole business was already done by then, and that the two siblings were in on it together but their attempted coup failed and Melina ended up dead.
Interesting! Maybe it was un justified hatred? Maybe the accidental burning was portrayed as a premeditated action? I really like all of these points, awesome stuff dude!
pausing the video to comment this so you might go on to say this, but where I'm at you're talking about the possibility that Messmer accidentally "scorched" the gate of the Erdtree and at the same time burned Melina. However, i remember watching a video from another creator (I apologize as I'm not sure who right now) talking about how Leyndell is already covered in a SIGNIFICANT amount of ash when we get there - when we burn the Erdtree ourselves with Melina's spirit as kindling, it adds tons more. I think there's a pretty good chance that Messmer actually fully burned the Erdtree in the past, which would also explain why the tree is spectral rather than physical, at least until you are specifically at the gate - which again, looks burned. When Messmer burned the Erdtree long ago, he burned Melina's physical form as well the physical form of the Erdtree. Then, we later burn both Melina's spirit and also the "spiritual/spectral" version of the Erdtree. This could also connect with him having "fled" the Erdtree as described by another thing in game (I believe the spirit ashes of a black knight? andreas maybe?) and why the serpent is considered a traitor to the Erdtree. Just my thoughts! :)
Maybe Mesmer burned the Erdtree alongside Melina? Because the fact that burning the Erdtree is a cardinal sin, implies it has been done before and might explain why Mesmer was "banished".
@@theemeraldgecko310 ahh no it wasn’t me, i could never have seen that haha! I remember seeing on a youtube video someone speculate: “The Erdtree must’ve been burnt before because it’s a cardinal sin and that implies it’s happened before.” And that really stuck with me, loved that theory, and i have lived by that ever since. Then yesterday I watch your video and it makes even more sense, that mesmer probably did it and maybe him having a snake (snake=bad in elden ring) might be securing the idea that maybe he was behind one of the burnings. Maybe even the first burning! I love to speculate, and i’ll for sure keep watching your videos, you make very good speculations!! And OFCOURSE the whole thing about mesmer and melina being twins, makes total sense. It’s a tragedy what happened to melina but the elden lore is only tragedies so it makes sense 😂
If Melina were the Gloam Eyed Queen, it would make so much sense and it would fill the gaps in the lore so nicely. However, the only thing that makes me think Melina is not the Gloam Eyed Queen is that when Ranni talks about the Empyreans, she says that "Of the demigods, only I, Miquella and Malenia could claim that title". This implies that the Gloam Eyed Queen was an Empyrean, but not a demigod. Therefore, if Melina is Messmer's sister, she is a demigod and thus, she cannot be the Gloam Eyed Queen.
Guys…I have a theory, I’ll start with Messmer, based off the Fire Giant corpses being impelled, it’s safe to say Messmer fought alongside Godfrey against the Fire Giants, Godwyn is believed to be the strongest demigod but we don’t know when he was born, maybe Messmer was the strongest demigod before Godwyn, or maybe Messmer was the most trusted or loyal child of Marika, for some reason I have this idea that Messmer was born during the age of the Crucible, maybe Radagon was made when Marika became a god, we know he is Messmers father as he has very close ties with him, I believe Marika sent Messmer to get revenge on the Hornsent for her people, the Shamen, being tortured, stuffed into Jars, killed and turned into the Gates of Divinity(that sounds crazy but I swear it makes sense) but her wrath would never be satisfied until every last one has been burned and killed, from what we can tell about Messmer, he was a well liked guy and loved by his soldiers, even one of the Carian Princesses left to fight alongside him, he even kept the Hornsents history books intact, he doesn’t seem like the mass murdering, impeller he builds himself to be, he probably has some abjections about killing ever Hornsent but does it anyway for Marika, Now for Melina, I believe she is the Glom eyed Queen, I’m not sure but I think she could have tried to overthrow Marika or did something to make her untrustworthy in Marikas eyes(the opposite of Messmer btw) losing Destined Death to Maliketh, but because she’s a child of Marika, he couldn’t or didn’t want to kill her, so she lost the freedom to step foot outside the Capital, needing to travel with someone or Torrent to do so, that’s why her hair is pink, she’s not complete, apart of her is missing, either locked away or killed by Destined Death, she basically got grounded, I have some doubts about her and Messmer twins being tho, I want to know what you think. Good video by the way, a lot of this came from what was brought up in it 10/10
I think the reason he burned her is obviously her allying with the god slayers to rebel against Marika. Mesmer likely fought in the war against Melina and must have been the one to burn her body after malaketh killed her.
what if melina was born with destined death and marika had to get rid of death itself? she sent messmer to kill her and take the rune of death from her. melina only opens her left eye after the frenzied flame ending takes place. could it be because after killing maliketh the rune of death went back to her? just food for thought
I never thought messmer killed Melina I just saw her being burned and bodiless being her curse since all of her full siblings also have a curse inflicted on them. Plus if she is the gloam eyed queen the lore says she is defeated by maliketh but I’m not sure if it says he kills her in the fight or not.
I would say Melina isn’t the gloam eyed Queen but inherited her power as a curse, The queen is theorized to be a serpent. So like Mogh and Morgot inherited the crucible aspect as a curse for Marika’s crimes against the hornsent and Miquella and Malanieia being cursed by outer gods for Marika rejecting the greater will and thus it’s protection. Messmer inherited the serpent as a curse alongside the flame of the fell god and Melina the flame of destined death, it’s even possible she was born burnt in the womb by the fell flame but remained alive in spirit through the power of the black flame.
As messmer also, melina changes appearance during the frenzied flame ending Her hair turn black and the left Eye Is White. As messmer, the GEQ could be sealed inside her left Eye and, once defeated by Marika, used as a last resort against the worst ending possible
@@theemeraldgecko310 im putting something up here and there by linking some dots like: - the divine Bird ornis ashes tell us he tamed the divine Bird, this could be a reference to the twin kite Bird (y know the shield) since hornsent and death rituals are so close - the ancestral followers could be a society that comes from the hornsent culture (in various areas of the hornsent upgraded versions of the horned talismans can be found) - Godwyn Will never be resurrected since its stated that his knights are waiting for the Age of the duskborn - Marika could be actually a correct result of the sainthood ritual in the jars and Radagon a part of the innards inside that jar, also Marika could have betrayed the hornsent at some point otherwise how could She ascend to the divine tower? Did She Need a consort ti ascend? Maybe radagon was there all along and this could justify messmer and melina presence as the eldest of the demigods. Also, during this period the fingers could have started to act choosing both the GEQ and Marika - Enir Is full of the Marika's arc/ braids iconography, so maybe they warshipped her at some point. - Torrent surely originates from the Land of Shadow as the spirt ashes tecnique. - Midra could be a sort of scholar Who, After meeting nanaya, started studying about the frenzied flame. Since this Is capable of killing the Spirit, the hornsent banned this practice and impaled Midra and his fellows. Nanaya told him to endure the pain and the suffering, for sure she's an agent of the frenzied flame, maybe shabriri?
Melina being the Gloam Eye was defeated by Maliketh but that doesn’t inherently mean death was the result- if it was the iris of occultation we would still be able to see the pale dark grace visual within her eye- the color palate is intentional from the Frenzied ending. It seems all Marika’s children are born with curses and we can only assume Melina was born to oppose her mother to some extent- while still being kindling herself- like her brother Messmer.
Melenia's powerr hp regen. Messmer's power is of flame Melquila's power is forced love Melina's power is to turn Runes into power. The same power she left with us. The power of an empyrian. The power of a God. Why "bosses" we kill stay dead? Why Maliketh can't perminitly kill us? We steal their power, their soul with the embers of destined death.
Melina's purple/gloam eye always interested me. I think that Marika somehow at some point used Melina's body to host the GEQ's soul. That's why Melina looks different, with no red or golden hair, the soul has changed her appearance. The reason I further think this is: the fact that the GEQ was the owner of the rune of death before Maliketh took it from her. Melina keeps talking about destined death and she shares the same moveset as the black knife assassins, who used daggers infused with the rune or death. The fact that Melina has her eye open after Marika disintegrates and fully dies in the frenzied flame ending, making it seem to me that her eye was sealed by Marika, and is now unsealed due to her death. I find it crazy that we still know almost nothing about Melina. The only issue with this theory is ... I can't make sense of the timeline of all this.
I'm convinced that, if Melina is the gloam eyed queen, that she rebelled against Marika to restore destined death to elden ring and Marika ordered her other empyrean half(Messmer) to put her down. Messmer and Gloam Eyed Queen seem to predate Godfrey and both have heavy association with serpents. perhaps the prominence of serpents in gladiatorial contests have to do with the contest between the two. The Gloam Eyed Queen having her body destroyed by Messmer is unable to return to the Erdtree and therefore is stuck as a spirit "burnt and bodiless". After the destruction of her body, Melina is left as an amnesiac spirit and given one directive to reach the Erdtree and fix what is wrong. in her travels she has learned of the tarnished and looks for one that may be capable of bringing her to the base of the Erdtree so she can assess her mother's condition. after learning of the state of the world she endeavors to do the same as before but needs the firegod's flame to do so without having her own body.
What if Melina and Messmer are related in a sense like how Radagon and Marika are one in the same just split personalities given physical form due to their "God Like" powers
We have the confirmation they're brother and sister at least, don't know if they're twins or not but probably they're not as we can see a statue of Marika holding just one baby in Messmer's chamber in the Shadow Keep. Also, I think they're Godfrey's children as we can find Talisman of Lord's Bestowal with Godfrey's image in the Shadow Keep too. As for Melina, I think she burned the first tree, since the erdtree we see in the base game is just a spectral tree and we can see ashes in some parts of Leyndell (even before we go to the mountaintops). Maybe, I'm just speculating here, it was Marika who ordered Melina, as she's the less loved child, the tree burnt to rebirth the erdtree just as she wanted it to be and then started war against giants to ensure "her tree" won't be burned. Also she banishes Messmer to the land of shadows not only to take revenge on the hornsents but because he's the only one left who could burn the tree for himself.
Hold-up; destined death flame is not black. It is black with a red rim. Messmer flame is red with a black rim… I’m getting convinced of this twin theory
Good video. Just a thought, when we first arrive in Leyndell you will see ash in many places. Also most of the houses are boarded up with melted wax. This is to prevent the airborne ash from seeping indoors. So this kinda indicates that the Erdtree was burned before using the fire giant's flame. Who did it or if Melina lost her body from this time is still unclear, but i do think Messmer wasnt involved in this initial burning. i could be wrong. This was discussed by Smoughtown and Tarnished Archeologist in earlier videos. Still a good video 😊
Thank you so much! This is super interesting, I am just wondering though, if they’ve sealed their houses how are they getting in lol? I can definitely imagine that’s why their sealed but maybe the throne room scorch marks are from a different instance? Could be reaching to be fair! Thank you!
@theemeraldgecko310 well it's inferred based on two things: furnace golems using messmer's flame against the hornsent AND the item description for the Hefty Furnace Pot
Did you get the wordplay of getting to Marika You can't open a path to Marika Without Her kin Kindling = child of Marika her kin Messmer and Melina are kindlings to open the way to find Marika You get it
