The Mauser to test is the Brno VZ 24, made in the 1920s IIRC. The gunsmith that wrote about sporterizing Mauser actions said the VZ 24 had highest quality metallurgy and heat treatment of all the Mauser actions. Lots of magnum calibers are built on them. Anyway, that was late ‘50s info that I went by before getting Model 70s.
Whenever I see a vid on old WW2 rifles, I’m always reminded of the saying “The Americans had a target rifle, the Germans had a hunting rifle, and the Brits had a battle rifle”. I still think that’s pretty accurate. Loved the metallurgy and analysis, but would have loved to have seen it run on a modem chromoly action. 👍
I'm glad to see this matter discussed. It was my experience that the old Mausers were on the soft side. They still make wonderful sporters but I have only chambered them for traditional Mauser cartridges. By the way Swamp Doggy, Hitler went to his secret underground base in Antarctica...everybody know dat!
Mauser receivers are soft, which is why you never see them blow up. But the bolt lugs and recesses are simply case hardened; and when that surface layer gets worn, bad things happen.
I have a 1916 dwm mauser that was sporterized at some point, used to have the czech mauser with the winter trigger guard, and another sporterized mauser in 30.06. Im a fan of the m1917 aka eddystone rifle. Mauser action with the "dog ears" to protect the rear sight. More doughboys carried that than the '03 in ww1
It's fairly straightforward at that point they were using technologies that were old so we're talking about technologies that are perhaps more than a 100 years old by far. They were well designed to deal with more pressure than they needed to and Engine blocks and weapons alike when properly taking care of seem to actually do very very well in the very long term, leaving modern day I'm always made with The understanding that there are a lot of older weapons out there so in a general sense if you stick with factory power levels you're not gonna have problems with a well taking care of weapon. New weapons are stronger but much of the time there's no reason to push the ballistics too far, If you want a lot more power get a larger cartridge.
Its surprising to see how many people get upset with the obvious truth. Machining and metallurgy has come a long way. I own a model 70 supergrade, but if I had to have one bolt action rifle for harsh consitions I think it would have to be my Tikka T3X. Two of the most reliable bolt guns ever made are the push feed AI AWs and Sako TRGs. Ive heard it said that the tikka is like a sporterized TRG, and with it winning a few military contracts it seems to be holding somewhat true. Great video.
yep, those old mausers receivers are so weak, they've been failing all over the world for the last 130 years but no one has been reporting it. they are so weak that professional hunters have never made them into big bore hunting rifles because they were so afraid of those receivers failing.
@@easttexan2933 Hi my friend, you are informed and know what is correct. I was referring to the poster of the video and the other commenter who worked in metallurgy for 20 years yet was taught lies. We both know that old school metal is superior to todays recycled and CNC manufactured garbage. New technology does NOT equal better quality. Today's students will be tomorrows fools by design. Academia is corrupted.
I had a friend that was a gunsmith, he would always send his Mauser actions to blanchards in Missouri , they would reheat to what you wanted , i think he always wanted somewhere around 35 to 40 R back then they changed $100.00 plus shipping for action and bolt body ,
Can't lie, this being the first comment I see and then watching 10 seconds into the video where he literally preempts this whole video with someone not listening while expressing this exact sentiment is hilarious. Incredible meta humor. Thank you.
I think people get caught up with nostalgia more than common sense sometimes. We have to remeber that pressure chamberings were much lower back in the 1920's and 1930's than today, a solid 100 years later. The metallurgy of the hayday was sufficient to accomodate the ammunition of that time, but find it hard to safely handle modern day chamberings with modern day propellants. Modern day actions are machined and treated to precise specifications vis modern day computers. To think that a 1920's Mauser action is tougher than a 2020 Mauser action is like comparing a stone age knife to a modern day hardend steel design. You just can't compare. I think what we can take away from the old Mauser 98 design was its control feed action style, which in my personal opinion, is a much more desired action than its push feed action equivelant. Not saying push feed actions are crappy, not by a long shot, but if I could choose between either two, I'd pick the control feed action. That's why many Winchester Model 70's are fitted with control feed actions because they are just phenomal and reliable. Here in South Africa, when hunting dangerous game, a PH will tell you straight up a push feed action chambered in a big bore rifle like a 416 Rem or 458 Lott is utter crap, because if you are aiming at a 2000 lbs pissed off Cape Buffalo, you don't want your action to fail on you by missing the stroke cycle to the next round because you're under stress and injured the animal. Then you better know how to run in zig zags, 'cause you won't want to step into your own shit whilst running away. Anyways, great video DD. Thanks for the awesome content as always. Good hunting😎
@@easttexan2933 you're entitled to your opinion equally as I am to mine, sir. If you have a better one, please share it with us so that we can learn from it. Otherwise, don't belittle a person simply because you don't anything constructive to add to the conversation. You have a nice day further, sir.
@@ruanschmidt6207 I did not make myself clear regarding my statement. I was speaking about the K98 in particular. Yes some of the old receivers fall into the category you mentioned. I shoot a custom Carl Gustav M96 in 6.5x55 and most commercial ammo is loaded to the yesteryear specs of 2600fps. Plenty fast to kill deer and hogs. Spanish mausers are another example. However to suggest the K98 falls into that category is nonsense, thus my incriminating comment of which I apologize. And another thing, I only read the first paragraph, I didn't realize there were 5 more below it. lol😇
Dead right ‘Great K9 Guru’ the mauser is quite strong in design and was probably one of the strongest in its day? They run smooth, feed beautifully and are just a nostalgic joy to own ( in my opinion). I have a Alpine arms british made rifle with a wartime 98 mauser action chambered in 270win. I love the old hybrid mongrel!!
Do you have any experience with Savage 99s? If so would you highlight your thoughts concerning this all american rifle? Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Loved the video! From everything I have read metal really didn’t start to really improve until the 50’s and yes the husqvarna rifles I own were a lot better then anything else back then in the way of metal. The fin’s were ahead of their time on quality steel but that being said they have the ability today to make metals so much better with all of todays tech knowledge that it’s not even a fair comparison. The older rifles shine in that they have some much more style and personality along with the quality of the builder that went into every rifle with pride which is sorely lacking in most things built today.
Actually, the Fins were behind the curve. The Americans and British moved past basic steel for firearms in the 1920s. The real revolution in metals wasn't only high-tech alloys, it was modern heat treatment processes. Only the Americans saw fit to really pour money into research and development for heat treatments. Of course, this was the result of early failures with the Springfield (which caused the military to change to a double process that involved new high-tech pyrometers). All Mausers made with basic steel and basic case hardening suffer from bolt-lug set-back if they encounter lots of bolt thrust over a prolonged period.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 unfortunately like so many others, I am restricted severely financially. THIS being stated I am third generation honerable discharge service member, who loves the original constitution and the second amendment . I love hunting when ever I can pull enough recourses together to get out and do it. What rifle would you suggest for everything needful for blacktail deer, Roosevelt elk, black bear as main target. it must be highly water rust resist, accurate out to no less then three hundred yards, hopefully no heavier then eight lbs. etc one where a lot of after market gismos and alterations are not required. like timny triggers. currently I am using a 338 win mag 1500 from Howa. I'd also like an upgrade in scope suggestions. hopefully less then 400. cost. thanks for all you do. it's highly appreciated and valued.
I love the old 98s. I've built over 100 rifles on the actions, still own about 20 of them, and hunt with 98s every year. The old k98k actions (that don't have lug set-back) are perfect for the 8x57 and all 30-06 based cartridges. It's when you move up to the belted magnums where problems develop.
The late great Dr, krockel at Colorado school of trades, told us students the same thing however he still loved the design, this is why Roy Weatherby dropped the 98 commercial FN for his belted magnum.s I have seen 1 shot of an 8mm06 improved set the lugs back 5 thousand on Just the first couple of shots
This is very true. Many original Weatherby's, especially those chambered in cartridges with high bolt thrust, suffered horrible lug setback. You don't see many of those old rifles around today. I probably build half of my custom rifles off of Mauser/FN 98 actions, but I'm very careful with selecting a cartridge to chamber them in. It is what it is.
Desert Dog, I really appreciate your history and technology assessments and then how you call it like you see it! Another great video, thanks for posting!
*Thank you for offering the unique and somewhat technical discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of the old 98 Mauser action. Yes, I did learn a few things, and I am not offended by any of it. I found the silly costume and dialogue with oddly costumed self to be humorous, entertaining, and just enough to keep the attention span from growing short. Well done. Bolt thrust with steel case ammo might be higher than same chamber pressure ammo with brass casings. This increased bolt thrust might explain the excessive headspace...commonly seen in old Mausers... Previously, I simply thought 'sloppy' tolerances or someone got the archived headspace or chamber dimension numbers wrong... Maybe, that was not entirely correct. Metallurgy matters and the commonly seen excessive headspace might be from a combination of factors. After learning that the Mauser two lug action was prone to bolt set back from increased bolt thrust...MAYBE, it was metallurgy combined with increased bolt thrust, from common use of steel case ammo... and possibly sloppy tolerances, and combined factors of friction wear and improper polishing by whomever had access to do it, as well. Well presented... thank you.*
Sir Desert Dog, Another great video especially that point/counter point with Swamp Doggy. I love my rifles built on Mauser actions but I'm not dumb enough to try to turn a 30-06 into a 300 Weatherby. My Mama didn't raise no fool!
The Pattern 1914 and the Enfield Model of 1917 are actions used for modern smokeless high pressure MAGNUM Cartridges. I am very interested in how these would compare to the old mauser steel, and new rifle metallurgy.
I've shot 98 Mausers chambered in .300 Win Mag and .458 Win Mag. Hatcher took Type 38 6.5 Jap rifles basically a Mauser made with inferior metals but superior heat treat to German Mausers, ran a 3006 chamber reamer into the 6.5 barrel. loaded a 3006 proof round and fired it. Results, threads were stripped off the barrel as it was blown out of the receiver but the receiver never ruptured and could be re-barreled for another try. He finally achieved a rupture by driving a steel rod in the barrel. While the old Mauser may not be as strong as modern rifles they are strong enough for most applications.
I would like to see the composition of metals from a swedish mauser. I want to see if the claims are true if the metallurgy behind them included vanadium for corrosion and rust resistance.
I've never heard anyone say that Mauser metallurgy was superior to modern steel. Only that the M98 action was very well-designed, strong and safe. But now that you've brought it up, somebody should do a destruction comparison test between an M98 and a modern bolt-action. Just don't use mine. 😂
In 1909, Argentina bought 500,000 Mauser K98s, but the condition was that they would be manufactured with a new alloy of a newly discovered metal. tungsten. The Argentine 1909 Mausers are made of chrome vanadium tungsten alloy.
LOTS of bad info here.....1) Tungsten was identified and used in the 1700s, and tungsten alloys were patented in the early 1800s. So Tungsten was not "newly discovered"; it had been used in a production setting for over 100 years by the time of the Argentine 1909 contract...... 2) The request for a Tungsten alloy (Wolfram) Barrel was a real thing (barrels only; there was never tungsten in the recievers); but due to manufacturing cost and tool wear; not all rifles delivered had tungsten alloy barrels. Many claims in Websters Mauser book have been dispelled. I tested two Argenitine 1909 Mauser Recievers and barrels, and neither of them contained tungsten...... 3) DWM made just over 200,000 1909s for Argentina; not 500,000...... Having said that, the German DWM 1909 Mausers were very fine rifles built to extrememly high quality standards for the day (the ones made in Argentina are not so great).
Other than the early run, most Mark X rifles had barreled actions built in Yugoslavia. The barreled actions were polished and fitted into stocks in England and America. Quality was hit or miss.
Desert Dog, a thoughtful and provocative analysis. I hope that death threats from K98 purists were at a minimum. The key is using guns within their limitations, which is a key point of yours. I will continue to use my Browning Safari Grade ( Belgian made in 1963) in 300 Win Mag with confidence and pride. (Thanks, Dad). Perry Pappous, SoCal
In most steel applications, copper content is considered undesirable. In the days of K98K construction, copper content wasn't added; it was a natural impurity. Today, copper is often added for slight corrosion resistance, easier machinability, and for antimicrobial properties. But quite honestly, adding a little bit of chromium/moly does a better job of corrosion resistance than copper, while maintaining the steel's strength. This is why most modern firearms are made from chromoly steel.
Good video and info, definitely liked how you presented it. I wonder though if the case is truly closed on this or if anything partly. What would be a modern equivalent to the k98k I wonder? Thank's!
Probably no modern equivalent. As far as I know, all modern rifles are made from nickel steels or chromoly steels. With modern forging processes, they don't even have to add tin/copper/lead to the mix to make machining easier. We now have the technology to custom-make alloys for a perfect combination of desired properties. And more importantly, our modern heat treatment processes are amazing.
About 25 years ago I had a friend who had a 22 250 built on an interarms Mark 10 action which suffered severe lug setback. That told me back then that the interarms actions were still using the same case hardening process.
Do you know much about the metallurgy of the current Zastava Mausers, or the past Interarms rifles that were made by Zastava? Do you have an overall opinion on the new Zastava Mauser? Thank you.
Commercial Mauser actions are far stronger than the old military production actions. I have only commercial Mauser and military Mauser actions and never had a problem with any one of them. Commercial Mausers have been made by a number of makers.
@@richardkramer1094 As you saw in the video, I tested an FN commercial mauser action from the late 1950s. It is made of the exact same steel as the K98k made in 1939 (same with the Santa Barbara actions). The FN commercial action will have a rigidity advantage because of the lack of a thumb cutout, but It's made of the same steel as the old Mausers. I don't own one of the new production 98 actions (like Rigby uses), but those are probably made of modern steel with modern heat treatment; but those are VERY expensive.
Hello Vincent, the metallurgy of Z Mauser is of a high manganese and are on par with the FN except they loose some strength ( later FNs as well because of splitting the C ring in the receiver, and the factory does Over Buff the finish quite a bit, ( although a little more crude the commercial 98 Santa Barbara made in Spain and full C ring had a better heat treatment than standard FN 98 , the vore sporting Mauser’s had those , also the Dimoulin receivers are made from modern steels as well and of course the present original 98 made today in Germany but it’s pricey 💰
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I have a number of the Heym commercial Mauser actions as well as the Zestava, Mayfair, a a couple of Granite Mountain actions and a sprinkling of others. Yes, I watched the whole video. I had someone bring a 98 Mauser chambered in .300 Winchester Magnum and I refused to work on it. It had been fired a few times and the lugs showed severe setback. I agree many military Mauser a serviceable actions and some fine customs can be made with them but one must give serious consideration to the chambering when rebarreling. I try to encourage clients to go with an AI cartridge as the expansion of the brass helps grind the chamber reducing the stress on the bolt lugs.
Fantastic presentation desert dog. Do you know what year the mauser you have from the eastern front was manufactured? The germans i think started to make mausers of lesser quality towards the end of the war. How late? Not sure. Do you know if the metalurgy changed for the mauser? Does the book mentioned anything regarding this?
I have the sporterised mauser the germans shot the british with and a sporterized 303 the British shot back at the germans with. Im not a military guy but i love the idea of the wartime rifles being used to feed the family after the war was done
Desert Dog AKA "myth dispeller". Great info, DD. Do you feel the max loads listed in reloading manuals reflect the metallurgy used in WWII-era guns? Thanks, Dog!
Yes. If we're talking about the 8x57JS, most reloading manuals try to stay in the 50k-53k psi range at max (just like the Nazi ammo). This is a great Idea, because probably 99% of 8x57 loads shot are through old k98 receivers. Some loading manuals for the 7x57 loads through, will give modern loads because the 7x57 is very popular in modern production rifles.
You have to remove the barrel to measure it and inspect the lug recess. But, look for typical signs of headspace issues like growing brass. Sometimes, you can feel it while you're locking down the bolt or lifting after firing, but you have to know what you're looking for through experience. Modern "go/no-go" gauges really aren't accurate with those vintage war Mausers. If it gets bad, the safety lug usually keeps the gun from going Kaboom, but you will get a case failure. Also, people mix and match bolts on those 98s all the time without properly headspacing, so it night not be set-back. I usually run a field gauge in the action and make a decision on buying a gun off of that. That's all you can do without removing the barrel.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 @Desert Dog Outdoors thanks for the insight ,,,,,,,,,,,iill keep a close eye on my brass ,,,, that would seem to be the easiest way to detect an issue my mausers tend like a hotter loads for accuracy unfortunately ,mausers and pre 64 winchesters have never failed me in the field however i had a new winchester decide not to fire in a snowstorm that cost a nice buck
Have you personally witnessed any bolt set back on a Mauser action when shooting non magnum cartridges? All I know is I recently got a 1945 Turk and that thing seems way better than I thought it would be. The headspace is pretty tight for a battle rifle and I seem to be able to get good velocities out of the old 8mm cartridge without seeing any pressure signs. It does have the advantage of a long barrel though. Thank you for the video!
DESERT Dog I recently bought a sweedish carl Gustav 6.5by 55 sweed that was sportarized by kimber of America in the late 80s have you ever came across one?
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 it seems solid if you'd like a pic ill send one , great channel keep the good info comming ,, I'm from Louisiana hunt whitetail in South miss and South la so 3006 is my go to it is overkill but deff gets the job done , I'm thinking about reloading some 6.5 sweed from what I read it deff enegh energy for whitetail and a joy to shoot !
I wish you would have gone one step further, and made a side by side comparison with a modern M70. Discussed metallurgy and design evolution. I thoroughly enjoyed the video you did on push feed bolts and their extractor systems. An amalgamation of these topics would make one hell of a video. As always, incredibly interesting. Keep ‘em coming.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 - That would be interesting as hell. Do you have any experience with American Rifle’s Mausingfield actions? I’d like your opinion on it.
Good point in Hatchers notes when you see the 1903 Springfield go from single heat treatment 1025to1030 single carbonized to double carbonized and drawn you see the yield ie point of stretch and a couple of years later again 1923/24 the change to 86series steel ( nickel) the actions become increasingly durable again , and when ruger makes the m77 out of 4140 Crome nickel molybdenum those actions are only limited to the brass case that starts to melt at 70.000 psi
Metal quality on Mauser 98s suffered especially during ww1 when the Germans had a hard time getting high quality steel. This became quite noticeable after the war when converted K98bs had increased parts wear (especially the barrels)
Nothing super secret about the M98, people have been “ trying” to blow them up for decades with high pressure cartridges, even cartridges like the 308 Norma mag and 300 win mag . Unsuccessfully I might add, unless a reloading error occurs.
As clearly stated in the video "BOLT LUG SETBACK" is the problem. I, nor anyone else claimed that old Mausers are "blowing up" constantly. Sticky bolts, extraction issues, accuracy problems, and brass damage are the usual results of bolt-lug setback; which are VERY common conditions with vintage Mausers.
Actually it wasn't. Americans were already using nickel steel and 4140 chromoly at that time. Our heat treat process was also decades ahead of the Germans (thanks to early failures of rhe Springfield).
I'm sidin' with swamp! You don't know a thing about it! Mauser majik is what it is. Created with the black arts is whut they were and you better come around to knowin' that like all the rest of us, son! Now straighten up and fly right!
Oh no! I guess I'd better get rid of my plethora of Sporterized M-98's and trade them in for some plastic stocked, plastic magazine POS that is VASTLY superior.. Pfft. Mauser may have checked their case hardening (which WAS state of the art at the time) visually. Ha, ha, ha. But that doesn't mean that they didn't know what they were doing. And I damn sure would put their craftsmanship and quality control against 90% of the "me too" garbage that is being peddled in today's market. Do we have the "capability" to produce superior steels and superior machining today? Absolutely. Does that mean that every rifle on the shelf today is VASTLY SUPERIOR to a custom rifle built on an M-98 action. Not only no, but HELL NO! Not by a long stretch! (Get free sh!t from vendors much DD?)
You skipped over the part where I stated that I build many of my custom rifles off Mauser actions. You were so desperate to be offended by something, you skipped over the actual content of the video. Almost ALL modern rifle receivers are stronger than a vintage Mauser; you may not like hearing that, but it doesnt change facts. By the way, I have no sponsors and receive no free gear; I'm one of the only outdoor channels on RU-vid who can claim that.
Ackley's crude destructive tests did nothing to measure bolt lug and lug recess wear, and actually weren't scientific tests at all. His bolt thrust test was only done with a 30-30, and his theory on that has already been disproved with higher power cartridges like the 30-06. Basically, 30-30 brass was a horrible test subject for failure rates.
I think we really need to know the carbon content to make a meaningful comparison. Carbon is obviously the key element here. These alloys are possibly completely different due to carbon content differences. So a bit misleading to use the fancy machine to illustrate the given point, when we actually need to know the carbon content to draw any real conclusion.
not really important. These are all low-carbon steels and the balance of material is undoubtedly almost all carbon. Easy to deduce. This is rifle steel, not knife steel.
Sorry to burst your bubble; but they did use computers to develop nuclear fusion and to put a man on the moon. They were analog computers, but they were an integral part of those accomplishments.
Two of my favorite guns are the Mauser 98 and the Model 12. The oldest Model 12 from the early 30's and earlier were made of nickel steel after that chrome moly. People often say the older ones were the best because of that vaque saying workmanship. Steel matters on how good it is. The post war Mausers were made out of I think chrome vandadium instead of chrome moly steel. All guns now made are chrome moly now.
I tested a post-war 1959 FN mauser reciever in this video. Same steel as the old mausers. The swede steel was just basic low-carbon steel ( but with fewer phosphate impurities)
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 The early model 12s that were shot a lot and that really means only trap guns had problems with steel peening on the recoil lock ups because of the softer metal in the early ones. That may be why the old Model had a head space adjustment. The ones made in WW2 skeet guns were used to train gunners for bombers were really shot a lot and as far as I know did not have this problem. I love old guns they have a soul something a Ruger American does not have.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 …. Here’s an example of a metallurgy issue. The US Army for a time produced poorly heat treated M1903 actions at Rock Island Arsenal. They were identified, recalled, and taken out of service. But as a service rifle the M1903 was used till the Korean War.
So why is my K98 from 1941 whit Norwegian barrel in 3006 going better then my friends Remington 700? 5 shoots at 100 meters give 13mm group and his is all over... warm is not someting i care about and i shoot 30-50 shoot every time with no bad groups? hmmm.. mine was taken from the nazis that was here.. tell me why?
of course modern firearms are stronger than old to the counter point having a surplus rifle in mint shape that clip loads and takes a bayonet is aso cool
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 i come from the surplus world originally my roots in firearms were from cheap fun ad modern defensive tools hunting isnt my forte so perhaps i dont understand why someone now would tear up an old action to put some odd bubba caliber in it i would think 8mm wounld do more than what most would want
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 oh I figured as much I've seen alot buy the receivers just for that at that point you are using parts like if I bought an AR receiver but there are many a German and Japanese rifle sold "rechambered" locally for a pristine gun price and that's why the cost of surplus has made it collectables not surplus anymore it's sad but a way things are
