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Michael Shermer w/ Joseph Henrich-WEIRDest People in World: How West Became Psychologically Peculiar 

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Full title: Michael Shermer with Joseph Henrich - The WEIRDest People in the World: How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous
Listen to the Science Salon Podcast # 134 (audio-only):
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WEIRD: Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic.
Unlike much of the world today, and most people who have ever lived, WEIRD people are highly individualistic, self-obsessed, control-oriented, nonconformist, and analytical. They focus on themselves - their attributes, accomplishments, and aspirations - over their relationships and social roles. How did WEIRD populations become so psychologically distinct? What role did these psychological differences play in the industrial revolution and the global expansion of Europe during the last few centuries? To answer these questions Joseph Henrich draws on anthropology, psychology, economics, and evolutionary biology. He illuminates the origins and evolution of family structures, marriage, and religion, and the profound impact these cultural transformations had on human psychology. Mapping these shifts through ancient history and late antiquity, Henrich reveals that the most fundamental institutions of kinship and marriage changed dramatically under pressure from the Roman Catholic Church. It was these changes that gave rise to the WEIRD psychology that would coevolve with impersonal markets, occupational specialization, and free competition - laying the foundation for the modern world. Shermer and Henrich discuss:
• psychology textbooks that “now purport to be about ‘Psychology’ or ‘Social Psychology’ need to be retitled something like ‘The Cultural Psychology of Late 20th Century Americans’,”
• Darwin’s Dictum: “How odd it is that anyone should not see that all observations must be for or against some view if it is to be of any service.” What views Henrich is writing for and against,
• evolutionary psychology and the search for human universals in the context of his thesis that WEIRD cultures are so different,
• Max Weber’s book The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, and how his thesis holds up under modern studies,
• a 2×2 grid analysis of his thesis (what about the exceptions?)
• the problem of overdetermining the past (so many theories explaining history: Jared Diamond’s geographic models, Ian Morris’ War: What is it Good For?, Matt Ridley’s The Evolution of Everything: How New Ideas Emerge (ideas having sex), Robin Dunbar’s Grooming, Gossip, and the Evolution of Language, economic historian Gregory Clark’s A Farewell to Alms, Benjamin Friedman’s Religion and the Rise of Capitalism, Rodney Stark’s The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success,
• normative vs. descriptive accounts of human behavior
• polygamy vs. monogamy,
• 1st cousin marriages?
• conformity, shame and guilt, illusions, loss aversion, cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, superstitions,
• religion doesn’t have to be true to be useful,
• national differences in cultural psychology (for example: Italy a loose culture, Germany a tight culture),
• origin of writing and literacy rates,
• origin of religion and its purpose(s),
• the “Big Gods” theory of religion’s origin,
• the purpose of religious rituals and food taboos,
• families and kin, kin selection, group selection,
• meaning and happiness in non-WEIRD cultures, “Then you get Westerners who are like ‘I’m an individual ape on a pale blue dot in the middle of a giant black space” and “What does it all mean?’”, and more…
Joseph Henrich is an anthropologist and the author of The Secret of Our Success: How Culture Is Driving Human Evolution, Domesticating Our Species, and Making Us Smarter, among other books. He is the chair of the Department of Human Evolutionary Biology at Harvard University, where his research focuses on evolutionary approaches to psychology, decision-making, and culture.
This dialogue was recorded on September 10, 2020 as part of the Science Salon Podcast series hosted by Michael Shermer and presented by The Skeptics Society, in California.
Listen to Science Salon via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, and TuneIn.
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30 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 93   
@BobbbyJoeKlop
@BobbbyJoeKlop 4 года назад
Henrich is a genius. Literally a genius. A that is no understatement.
@JayzsMr
@JayzsMr 3 года назад
Will change all social sciences in the future,but not only him there are others . Cultural group selection is here to stay
@vinaymehta8200
@vinaymehta8200 3 года назад
Current western culture is fueled by looting and killing so something that is built on these foundations will not lat for too long as its not built on REAL value - The Royal family of Britain and the Queen is the "First family of Terrorism" in the world having so much blood on their hands - really but they are revered by the world. The Queens mother stole the Kohinoor diamond from a 15 year old child. They say that Britain stole 45 trillion from India and starved 3 million Bengalis in one season (Hitler killed 6 million Jews in 10 years). The whole continent of people in the Americas have mostly been eliminated. I would also TODAY have a great life and systems if I have taken so much from so many people. In western cultures the "Means to an End" does not matter and as a human being myself I think that is just too sad and too bitter and disgusting no matter what is produced in the end.
@claudiaxander
@claudiaxander 3 года назад
@@vinaymehta8200 Firstly ,here is a list of some pre-colonial massacres in India: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_India#Pre-colonial_India Who invited the East India company and their soldiers into India and why? Theft and Genocide has a long history back to early primate war; no human group is unique in this behaviour. No human group has the monopoly in Psychopaths. sociopaths ,narcissists.
@vinaymehta8200
@vinaymehta8200 3 года назад
@@claudiaxander get your history straight - these were done by foreigners also. The systematic killing of Native Americans in America is a shame and even the holocaust pales in front of it.
@claudiaxander
@claudiaxander 3 года назад
@@vinaymehta8200 I repeat "Theft and Genocide has a long history back to early primate war; no human group is unique in this behaviour." Your religious books are full of ancient war.
@alexlarsen6413
@alexlarsen6413 4 года назад
Did he say Catholicism broke up polygamy in Europe? I don't think that's really the case, neither Romans nor the Greeks, nor our heathen ancestors from the north, really were polygamous. Sure, having mistresses and concubines was an occurrence, but marriage was monogamous with a classic pater familias family structure. It is true that, especially among the heathen tribes, these larger family units and clans, were kind of broken apart by Catholicism, but I don't think that was necessarily an advantage at all.
@JesusisGod
@JesusisGod 4 года назад
Does this help? "Plotting these points together, they found that the longer a population spent under the rule of the Roman Catholic Church, the lower its kinship intensity score, meaning lower rates of cousin marriage and polygamy and looser familial and clan structures. And as kinship intensity drops off in their data, a certain suite of traits grows stronger, including individualism, nonconformity, and willingness to trust and help strangers, the researchers report today in Science." (Nov. 7, 2019) www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/11/how-early-christian-church-gave-birth-today-s-weird-europeans
@alexlarsen6413
@alexlarsen6413 4 года назад
@@JesusisGod No, I don't think that is right. I see it as heavily colored by catholic, western church bias. If you look at pre-Christian communities both historically and scientifically, there's no evidence for interbreeding of cousin marriages anywhere but among late medieval nobility. Catholic church in general has had this tendency to portray the heathens as primitive people, with "barbaric" customs and there's little to no actual evidence that was really the case. On the contrary, the pre-Christian European world seems to have been far more democratic and egalitarian than anything which followed. At the same time, the philosophical foundations for the modern world, both among the Catholics and then later among the Protestants, came from refocusing on the classical Aristotelian logic and philosophy i.e. pagan philosophy, which ultimately resulted in the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.
@alexlarsen6413
@alexlarsen6413 3 года назад
@@aaronclarke7732 Calm down, you seem triggered and to use your own words - passionate. How many replies do you need, lol?! No thanks, I've read enough of catholic propaganda, not gonna waste another minute on that trash.
@alexlarsen6413
@alexlarsen6413 3 года назад
@@aaronclarke7732 This passive aggressive approach doesn't make you look any less triggered. And yeah...whosoever saw a Harvard anthropologist being a catholic propagandist, right? Especially when all of his data is coming from catholic sources. Which are trash.
@priyojitchatterjee6164
@priyojitchatterjee6164 2 года назад
@@alexlarsen6413 you end up sounding like a douche in this exchange.... just saying
@howtheworldworks3
@howtheworldworks3 4 года назад
I don't need religion because fandoms exist.
@micahgmiranda
@micahgmiranda 2 года назад
True
@heygreydey
@heygreydey 2 года назад
After just reading “The Dawn of Everything: A new history of humanity” by the late great David Graeber and coauthor David Wengrow, I can’t get away from the notion that there might be a lack (blindspot, built-in bias, convenience of propaganda?) of imagining the varieties of human culture past or present, only cemented by heavy-handed projections. Their book is like a flare in the night.
@YogiCoachRaghu
@YogiCoachRaghu 3 года назад
What this does not speak about is the destruction that this culture has unleashed! Nuclear disaster, climate disaster, genocide and ... so what about the promotion of violence, colonising and stealing of knowledge and all the shadows of WEIRD? Many of the knowledge converted into technologies of war came from China and India! Also many of the people like Locke studied Buddhist work before they made ‘radical’ changes. This is a self congratulatory model that is blind to all its shadows.
@vinaymehta8200
@vinaymehta8200 3 года назад
Living in a clan may not bring MONEY but there is less fear, more dancing, together-ness, happiness and comfort in my opinion allowing for the joys of nature & nurture from babies to the old or from birth to death
@priyojitchatterjee6164
@priyojitchatterjee6164 2 года назад
thats the point. WEIRD societies are better at winning prolonged wars than others. hence india was colonized despite having very powerful feudal societies.
@MrBallynally2
@MrBallynally2 4 года назад
I am very interested and going to buy the book. Correct me if i am wrong but doesn't the focus on the individual already start with the pre Socratics? Then through Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Romans unto Christianity and so forth!
@sn-cp2ft
@sn-cp2ft 3 года назад
Great point about identity in other societies based on our place in our family and relationships versus what our career is...
@hansfrankfurter2903
@hansfrankfurter2903 2 года назад
There's no dearth of white westerners constantly telling us how rich, prosperous , educated and democratic they are.
@micahgmiranda
@micahgmiranda 2 года назад
be jealous
@hansfrankfurter2903
@hansfrankfurter2903 2 года назад
@@micahgmiranda LMFAO
@ahmedchoudhury9606
@ahmedchoudhury9606 2 года назад
As an Indian. We grew up hearing this slanted view and felt inferior.
@hansfrankfurter2903
@hansfrankfurter2903 2 года назад
@@ahmedchoudhury9606 Of course everyone from the global south has heard this BS narrative. They colonize India and suck up 45 trillion and then they lecture you about how superior they are to you. You literally can't make this shit up!
@bogdanpopescu1401
@bogdanpopescu1401 Год назад
you chose to have the dumbest take on the subject; do you at least feel more virtuous for bringing race into this?
@howtheworldworks3
@howtheworldworks3 4 года назад
1:20:55 I am in fact working on that system that will top democracy. Please don't die until it's done because I really want you to read it and share your opinions on in.
@dlon8899
@dlon8899 3 года назад
Islam: polygamy, easy peasy. Castration and sex slaves. Christianity: Nice, but check this out...
@Hollis_has_questions
@Hollis_has_questions Год назад
You didn’t complete the preaching of religious v. non-religious morality. For we non-religious, it’s “Be Nice.” For the religious, it’s “Be Nice OR ELSE!” I live in a supposedly secular society, but the OR ELSE dictum rears its ugly head all the time. Religious people think of atheists as “godless,” but to my way of thinking we are “god-free” and they are “god-enslaved” and “god-bullied.”
@cosmicsquid
@cosmicsquid 4 года назад
The Science Salon series of conversations are excellent except for unnecessary added verbiage. The many you knows, likes, ums, ahs, and I means in some of them are particularly ponderous . Thank you Dr. Michael Shermer.
@danmosley4387
@danmosley4387 10 месяцев назад
Please, initiations are not performed by hunter gather groups. They are performed by tribal groups.
@zzzaaayyynnn
@zzzaaayyynnn 3 года назад
Shermer's slanted language when discussing scientific ideas grates on me...
@cvdavis
@cvdavis 3 года назад
Can you give a couple of explicit examples?
@joshthegringo
@joshthegringo 3 года назад
Science and western values will never be able to solve the ultimate implication that the creeping onset of meaninglessness inherent in a hierarchical, agricultural, industrial society will eventually cause the “WEIRD” countries to implode and collapse under the weight of a mass obsession with economic expansion, infinite consumption, and technological progress. Both of these individuals seem recognize the awkward implications of the ideas presented but paper over them with nervous optimistic suggestions that “Facebook” and “science groups” will somehow fix the existential numbness of the masses. Society must be rebuilt from the ground up.
@priyojitchatterjee6164
@priyojitchatterjee6164 2 года назад
WEIRD is like nukes. once you have it you cant go back
@micahgmiranda
@micahgmiranda 2 года назад
Life is meaningless to everyone. The fact that westerners have recognized that doesn't indicate impending collapse. Forecasting doom and gloom is a staple in the pessimistic playbook. There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Building on top of our current understanding functions well enough.
@bogdanpopescu1401
@bogdanpopescu1401 Год назад
"...the creeping onset of meaninglessness inherent in a hierarchical, agricultural, industrial society..." Huh? Aren't all societies, especially the less "WEIRD" ones, agricultural (well, except maybe for a few modern city states such as Singapore)? And was there ever a society without hierarchies? If anything, the modern society has made the hierarchical nature of society less oppressive, by multiplying the hierarchical structures into an ever increasing number of more or less decentralized hierarchies. And the obsession of infinite consumption sounds more like last century; today's advanced societies are mass obsessed with public health and saving the planet. Meaninglessness - yes, there is a lot of it in the modern world, but it's very much up for debate where does it come from and especially how to cure it. "Society must be rebuilt from the ground up." - this sounds like an oxymoron; "must" doesn't fit well with "from the ground up".
@joshthegringo
@joshthegringo Год назад
@@bogdanpopescu1401 pre-agricultural hunter gatherer society was non-hierarchical. The “original sin” of humanity was agriculture. Hierarchy has only been able to flatten itself through outward expansion. But there’s no more land. There’s no where else to go. Inequality is getting worse. Modern medicine is only remedying the diseases created by agricultural society in the first place. “Saving the planet” from the very evil that was unleashed into the world by society. Hunter gatherers lived in a closed-loop harmonious feedback with nature that represents 95% of human history in which no climate crisis ever existed.
@bogdanpopescu1401
@bogdanpopescu1401 Год назад
@@joshthegringo you are the product of the "original sin"; are you prepared to die to fulfill your vision of going back to "Paradise"? there's no way the planet can support 8 billion of hunter gatherers, not even 10% of this. No climate crises exists now either, it's a manufactured crisis to justify the exercise of power by the ruling class. I'm not sure how non-hierarchical the hunter gatherers were; I'm no expert, but I think there are various theories about it. Jonathan Haidt speculates that the non-hierarchical structure is just a phase, probably triggered by the invention of weapons; and that the hierarchical structure is built into our biology (which is what JP's lobster is about). Anyway, at least it seems we know that they were highly conflictual; the statistics I've seen show the pre-european inhabitants of the Americas having the highest chance of dying in war. It's good that you are mentioning the "original sin", it gives away that you are just expressing your religious beliefs.
@danmosley4387
@danmosley4387 10 месяцев назад
Joseph Henrich plays things fast and lose.
@feedback-loop
@feedback-loop 4 года назад
"nucular"?
@GalenMatson
@GalenMatson 4 года назад
I've even heard Brits say "nucular" so I've just had to give up on this one.
@vinaymehta8200
@vinaymehta8200 3 года назад
in a sad way - so much genocide and slavery
@alf-erikritsland1051
@alf-erikritsland1051 3 года назад
This is important.
@ryanalt5048
@ryanalt5048 4 года назад
I think we are observing a serious western decline, especially relative to China.
@j.h252
@j.h252 4 года назад
Very interesting talk with an open mind not following an agenda of ideologues but patterns of facts and reason, so one could in relaxed mood listen to what conclusions Joseph Henrich came to, instead of being forced into a rejection mode as I am usually in, when sales people of biased trash concepts are selling their "goodies" mainly to convince themselves or their peers.
@micahgmiranda
@micahgmiranda 2 года назад
I'd be curious to know what your examples of trash concepts are. Most likely concepts that you're personally biased against because of your worldview.
@vinaymehta8200
@vinaymehta8200 3 года назад
Living in a clan may not bring MONEY but there is less fear, more dancing, together-ness, happiness and comfort in my opinion allowing for the joys of nature & nurture from babies to the old or from birth to death
@claudiaxander
@claudiaxander 3 года назад
I do not want to have sex with any of my cousins, so you can keep your clan behaviour.
@joshthegringo
@joshthegringo 3 года назад
The happiest westerners are those that create community over consumption.
@claudiaxander
@claudiaxander 3 года назад
@@joshthegringo Superstition can make some people happy, Until they are incinerated by an asteroid they failed to scientifically predict and repulse.
@priyojitchatterjee6164
@priyojitchatterjee6164 2 года назад
@@claudiaxander or have their property taken away by a bunch of thugs with sticks
@amanchandekar4075
@amanchandekar4075 4 года назад
Great skeptic society
@squatch545
@squatch545 3 года назад
Shermer got schooled by Henrich.
@micahgmiranda
@micahgmiranda 2 года назад
Really? Do we have to only categorize things in terms of winners and losers?
@squatch545
@squatch545 2 года назад
@@micahgmiranda Just making an observation.
@tteot1wph
@tteot1wph 4 года назад
Is he using a Snapchat filter or something? The image looks bad
@nbme-answers
@nbme-answers 2 года назад
4:41
@tnvheiseler
@tnvheiseler 3 года назад
Group selection 1:10:45
@isagenesi1326
@isagenesi1326 4 года назад
Really enjoyed this thank you so much!
@mcgee227
@mcgee227 4 года назад
You never had a real job at 19?
@jamesbnorman1
@jamesbnorman1 4 года назад
Im glad he got his hair die color sorted out before the interview.
@andthereisntone3454
@andthereisntone3454 4 года назад
His hair dye game is indeed strong.
@chuckleezodiac24
@chuckleezodiac24 Год назад
but someone fucked up his eyebrows.
@view1st
@view1st Год назад
​@@chuckleezodiac24 I seems to be wearing eye makeup too.
@wtfamiactuallyright1823
@wtfamiactuallyright1823 4 года назад
Loved this, ty.
@albionicamerican8806
@albionicamerican8806 4 года назад
It's interesting to think that the Catholic Church created the conditions for today's atomized individualism in WEIRD countries by discouraging cousin marriage and promoting the marriage of strangers in other communities. Though that has its disadvantages when it comes to pairing up with women. Back when you had to marry one of the girls next door, at least you could get a good read on her personality and character through long acquaintance, and you could see from how your elders talk about her elders the kind of family she came from. Today, in WEIRD World, you don't have any of that context available when you meet single women, so you don't know right away if you're dating a woman who is promiscuous, potentially alcoholic, unfrugal or otherwise damaged and unsuitable as wife material.
@micahgmiranda
@micahgmiranda 2 года назад
Oh no! Heaven forbid you have to actually talk to a woman on a date to assess her character.
@andrew.r.lukasik
@andrew.r.lukasik 4 года назад
That was great, thank you!
@vinaymehta8200
@vinaymehta8200 3 года назад
you mean white christian colonialism - the ISIS of its times?
@cvdavis
@cvdavis 3 года назад
I didn't realize he had these on video. I listened to it on the podcast and found it so interesting I bought Henrich's book. I'm only a little over 200 pages in since I just bought it but find it fascinating and enlightening. I keep reading stuff and wondering how Shermer thinks this stuff affects his ideas on universal type ethical issues. When I say this stuff I mean the different view points of people who grow up in societies that are more clan and kinship based. It appears to have a huge impact on moral decision making. It also makes me wonder if Sam Harris has read this book and what he thinks about it from the moral standpoint. I even wonder how these different world views would affect what kind of AI they would want in their self driving cars compared to WEIRD people. Love Shermer's work and interviews.
@vinaymehta8200
@vinaymehta8200 3 года назад
Living in a clan may not bring MONEY but there is less fear, more dancing, together-ness, happiness and comfort in my opinion allowing for the joys of nature & nurture from babies to the old or from birth to death
@cvdavis
@cvdavis 3 года назад
@@vinaymehta8200 If you've read his book you'd know that he says there's MORE fear from people who live in clans.
@PMKehoe
@PMKehoe 4 года назад
Interesting, that Michael long expressed Enlightenment genetic predicated views are now “in play” or ripe for foundational over writing...
@micksc1
@micksc1 4 года назад
The west is the best! Always new it.
@vinaymehta8200
@vinaymehta8200 3 года назад
How can committing genocide in USA & Australia, stealing and taking babies away from their parents make the west best? In USA we live on stolen land built to a large part by stolen people or even Chinese & Japanese in camps
@micksc1
@micksc1 3 года назад
@@vinaymehta8200 Current western culture although not perfect is the best as far as i can tell. But maybe Japanese or something is superior.
@vinaymehta8200
@vinaymehta8200 3 года назад
@@micksc1 I think so - if you consider happiness, peace, dancing, less stress and a healthy planet - a success - it depends how you want define success.
@insaneweasel1
@insaneweasel1 3 года назад
@@vinaymehta8200 The thing is, most societies have committed atrocities and genocides. The ones that haven't probably just didn't have the opportunity to since human nature is not significantly different from one corner of the globe to another. However Western society has led to massively increased life spends cures for terrible diseases, put people on the moon and so on.
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