amazed by some stupid comments somewhere else: "thank goodness helio introduced the concept of leverage", seriously wtf?! leverage has always been part of jujutsu, how dumb and/or brainwashed can one be to believe that the brazilians figured out to use leverage in this martial art?
Here in brazil the gracies made a huge propaganda about it, bragging about bjj being the superior art, being born and evolved in brazil and that helio being skinny and small introduced the leverage, and the fools fall in that propagando even today with the internet to prove the otherway.
I think more and more people are doing their research and figuring out the Gracie lies! The Gracies didn’t count on the internet and people really digging and doing their own research and figuring this out. For instance, the claim that Helio was to small and frail to do A lot of Judo moves seems to be bullshit to me. Mifune and Kano were both smaller then Helio. I’m so glad to see these comments from people who have done their research and do not believe the Gracie lie.
4 года назад
the brazilians never invented anything it was all nothing but kosen/kyoto style judo the only time they surpassed the japanese was in the 90s with no gi grappling
Judo is the origin of BJJ...hence Brazilian *Jiu Jiutsu*, JJ being the source of Judo. Master Jigoro Kano distilled several different Jiujiutsu styles into an art which could be used in competition without permanently injuring opponents (most of the time, there are certainly exceptions). Taking this art (taught to the Gracies by Mitsuyo Maeda) and testing it out against "street" fighters, Carlos and Helio Gracie tailored it to their purposes. BJJ comes from Judo Newaza (ground techniques).
Maeda said himself he didn’t do much groundwork in Japan but learned it in London from Tanabe/Handa students like Taro Miyake/Uyenishi as well as catch wrestlers. Kano- the founder of Judo- hated groundwork
@@marcuspiscaer4120 He dont like Kosen Ruleset not Newaza in general. He still include Newaza with Kodokan Ruleset and restricted it to 30 seconds before stopped. But in training, they still do Newaza and Mifune video above is the fine example of Newaza in Judo. Kosen Ruleset is that you can go to the ground as long as you want. Since Kano want safe Judo even for self defense, he dont like the idea of Kosen Ruleset. But most Judo School in Japan will teach Newaza by Kodokan standards.
Maeda wasn't allowed to graduate anyone. He only formed Instructors, such as Jacynto Ferro and Donato Pires dos Santos who formed instructors such as Carlos Gracie. And Judo was Known them as "Kano Jiu Jitsu" or just "Jiu- Jitsu". Only after 1925, the name "Judo" was forced to be used. The Gracies tried to change the name to Judo, but they were weak in nagewasa. So they changed the name back to "Jiu Jitsu".
I'm Brazilian and I have no doubt about history, what we call bjj, is Ne waza, but have no doubt as well that because of the Gracies today Ne Waza is so famous!
I agree that they definitely kept the more technical Newaza aspect of the art alive and brought fame to it because Royce Gracies fights were televised to the world. However, let’s not forget that Mitsuyo Maeda did it first. Maeda was the one that thought focus on the ground was so important and that’s the part of Judo he became a specialist in and won over 2000 challenge matches with his art. Thr art he passed to the Gracies. Maedas matches just weren’t televised because it was a different time. If you read about Helio Gracies matches you will find that a lot of his matches in Brazil with Old School Judokas were declared a draw. However, it is noted that several of these Japanese Judokas dominated him throughout these matches. But the Brazilians still declared it a draw?? 🤔. This is not including Kimura who just broke Helios arm and the Brazilians could not declare that a draw. There was no getting around that one. Also, a note on a more modern fight between Japanese Judoka Yoshida and Royce Gracie. This fight occurred in Japan. Yoshida choked Royce out. The ref called it before Royce lights went out. Yoshida won the match. The Gracies bitched and moaned until it was over turned to be declared a draw. Which was ridiculous! 🤦♂️🤦♂️ The Gracies should be much more grateful to Jigoro Kano and Mitsuyo Maeda! Yet a few then claim “my grandfather invented the use of leverage in ground fighting” which is simply not true!! The Japanese were already doing that in Newaza.
@@griffin2599 basically what I said first, but you use more words, but again if wasn't the Gracies no BJJ no newasa spread all over and no UFC, buy the way thanks to all Rio de Janeiro schools of JJ including the Fadda family who are one of the first in Brazil to do JJ, unfortunately the Fadda's are not that good with marketing, and thanks as well to Brazilian Luta Livre who fight against to the gracie students
damn its an eye opener, ground fighting concept was actually existed/originated in Japan long long time ago. The Brazilians only perfected them and named it Gracie Jiu Jitsu/ BJJ and made their own rankings system and regulation.....marketing hype.
depends on the Brazilian! You cannot judge Martial Arts only Martial Artists. Try to Humble down, it's the only way to learn......a full cup can never accept anything and becomes stagnant!
Actually let's be scientific here. Just like the bow and arrow orginated in all cultures capabable of making them, it comes down to basic common sense. These techniques originate the same way too, since grappling and wrestling was the 'all and all' fighting system of the time with less focus on strikes due to weapons use. All historical cultures would have found them out themselves, it's not like a greek invented the armbar and a roman never heard of it. That would be silly. It's just been packaged last 100 years or so :)
+manz92 though all cultures surely practiced wrestling/grappling to some extent. there's no evidence to suggest that it was practiced to an incredibly high level of knowledge, efficiency and effectiveness the way the Greeks did. that's why they were renowned and well known for said skills. also the timeline of the emergence of hand to hand ma arts in India coincides with the emergence of Greek people/culture in the region. it's also well known that hand to hand ma in India were moving into China along with Buddhism and other aspects of Indian culture. and the emergence of jujitsu in Japan stems from five samurai that were trained by a Chinese man. do your history research, it's all there to be observed. its obvious that weaponry based ma were being developed everywhere, it's also clear that kids are gonna wrestle and that wrestling is an innate part of human existence, but that doesn't mean that wrestling was developed into an all encompassing, complete ma by all cultures. as a matter of fact evidence would suggest otherwise.
The finishing holds and positions have always been those of Judo. What the Gracie's did differently is to work endlessly on the transitions that take them to superior positions, or to zones of sanctuary. A training partner and friend of mine, with whom I was signed up at the Torrance Academy pre-UFC, went to train wrestling with a famous Olympic gold medalist. When he told the guy he was training with the Gracies, the guys said, "Oh... how is little Rorion?". Turns out, while Rorion was about 12, Helio brought the gold medalist down to the compound to drill them all on transitions. These got incorporated into the method, spread through observation and mat-time sharing, and have become part of the fabric of BJJ.
Kano himself never ever called his art Kano Jujutsu He called his art Judo from day 1 Dainippon Butokukai which governs the various martial arts including Judo and Jujutsu was founded in 1895 Judo was part of the Jujutsu department back then But Judo was the dominant force over the other Jujutsu schools from the beginning since then Judo gained more strength and the Jujutsu department finally changed its name to the Judo department in 1919 Therefore then Jujutsukas was treated as Judokas
The ignorant comments below from defenders of Judo are just mind-numbing. We can praise Judo without trying to tear down BJJ. The history is very simple. BJJ evolved from Judo newaza. Everybody acknowledges this. The Gracies took the type of newaza you see in the video above, and continued to evolve it, while Judo moved away from many of these techniques. We should be thanking BJJ, not insulting it. It's a very positive development for martial arts that there were schools in Brazil perfecting old time Judo newaza into what you see today, because the level of ground fighting in most Judo schools is very, very poor. Thankfully that is starting to change, and it's because BJJ pushed us into changing. Part of these reason Judo became less and less newaza/katame waza focused over the decades has much to do with the early political feuding between Kodokan Judo and Kosen Judo. Changing the rules of competition in order to phase out alternative styles that were successful didn't begin with the IJF and Olympic Judo - it began with Kosen Judo's emergence.
Well its probably difficult for a traditional Japanese Judo artist to see everybody calling Triangles, Arm bars, Kimuras and more, BJJ, when most of BJJ is really just Judo. I'm a so called BJJ practitioner and it kind of bothers me too that BJJ guys basically took moves from Judo, Catch wrestling, and Pankration yet take all the credit everytime they do a move that is not BJJ. Use a BJJ move and call it BJJ, don't call it BJJ if you win with a Kimura.
And it probably bothers wrestlers that Judo calls a double-leg "Morote Gari", and a hip toss "O Goshi". Do you think that Judo invented everything under the sun, or merely curated and improved upon what already existed? Nothing is ever totally new. It doesn't matter what BJJ calls a technique. Not every country wants to port over the Japanese names - it's easier for the average practitioner to just use the translated term.
+Roy W Pancras, cacc wrestling, judo, bjj all share the same roots nobody is ripping anybody off. wrestling/grappling have been in existence since the dawn of human existence. each style is a unique variation of some sort. after all it was the perfected fighting style of the Spartans (Pancras) that was brought to India during the Alexander the great era. that spawned m.a in India, which spread to China, then Japan. everything would just be called Pancras. should boxing, wrestling and bjj all be called Pancras?
Raul Duke Hey if somebody gets put in a triangle or Kimura, call it what it is, Judo.. If Judo guys use a wrestling move, call it what it is, Wrestling. Its best to just use grappling, like many MMA gyms call their ground game classes. Or submission wrestling.
"Jiu" es "JU" dicho en portugués, "Jiu jitsu" es el de Brasil, ju jutsu es el japonés, y en fin el jiu-jitsu es un ne waza más desarrollado, pero ne waza al fin, todos amigos.
+Roy W You are viewing this debate through the lens of technique categorization, which is ultimately at the discretion of each art. Judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc need not classify each of their techniques as belonging to one or the other. The system within which it exists is more important. Each art involves selected techniques from other arts (or ones they evolved themselves) that conform to their specific combat philosophy and system. Judo is a system of techniques selected from various ancient Japanese jiu jitsu forms, codified into a single system that we call Judo. BJJ is a system of techniques, many of which came or evolved from Judo, or catch wrestling, strung togetger by their own innovations and philosophies. Karate does this as well. This focus on ego and style gratification through technique nomenclature is pointless and counter productive. If we were to "call it what it is" then Judo would be wrestling and ancient jiu jitsu. It is not the techniques, it's how they are assembled within a system of combat.
History is good, but when we use it to pump our ego's it becomes useless. Martial Arts is a human expression of combat period. Brazil got it from Japan, Japan got it from China, China got it from India, India got it from Africa, Africa influenced Europe. Bottom line we have all learned from each other. The problem is were too damn prideful and ignorant by choice. Yes there is roots to everything and that is good. What sucks is when cultures learn from other cultures then try to take credit for what they've learned. But let's not be hypocrites, according to history this is what humans do!
The degree to which Jujutsu was derived from Chinese martial arts is close to insignificant though. One or two of the earlier styles (Yoshin Koryu for example) did have some chinese influence but it was mostly just influence. The problems Chinese martial arts were designed to solve differed meaningfully from the kinds of problems Jujutsu was aiming to solve. "Japan got it from China" is more true of Karate than it is of Jujutsu.
Sorry but the Brazilians totally appropriated this .. an art of hundreds to thousands of years just taken over in one generation. Perhaps it was a business decision, to create its own subcommunity. Perhaps it was to avoid calling it The same thing... Whatever the case, Brazilian jiujitsu is basically jiujitsu/judo
Judo gave life to many martial arts an example zambo and bjj, the Greices made a great revolution, but only copied some things. Sensei Helio Greice himself, in interviews says that his jiu jitsu he created from judo.
ralf da silva rozas but he didn’t create anything! What he learned came from a Japanese immigrant to Brazil. The Gracies are lying and saw opportunity to take credit for something they didn’t create.
VOCÊS SÃO MUITO TEIMOSOS! = NÃO SI CANSA DE PASSAR VERGONHA ?????? O JIUJITSU SEMPRE FOI OQUE É , EU TREINO A 40 ANOS E NUNCA MUDOU ! FUI ALUNO DO MAIOR NOME DESTA ARTE = ((( IVAN GOMES ))) PARAIBANO QUE VIVIA NO RECIFE PERNAMBUCO ! QUE GANHOU CARSON GRACIE !! OLHE NO RU-vid O FILHO DO CARSON EXPLICANDO TUDO !! CARSON GRACIE JUNIOR EXPLICA QUE IVAN GANHOU DO CARSON INDISCUTÍVEL A SUPERIORIDADE DE IVAN COM O JIUJITSU TRADICIONAL ! IVAN E O SENADOR JAPONÊS ENOKE (( DONO DO PRIIDE )) VIAJARAM O PLANETA LUTANDO COM TODOS EM EM TODOS OS CONTINENTES !! UNICO BRASILEIRO QUE TEM UMA ESTATUA NO UNICO MUSEU DAS ARTES MARCIAIS NO JAPÃO !! NEM HELIO GRACIE , NEM NENHUM GRACIE MENTIROSOS !! OLHE OUTROS VIDEOS DO JIUJITSU JAPONES E VC VAI VER QUE HELIO GRACIE NUNCA INVENTOU UMA ALAVANCA PARA CADA TECNICA DO JIUJITSU JAPONES !!
The triangle, to armbar transition is how I still learn today. That's amazing. BJJ has evolved and incorporated so many other grappling styles. No matter who started what, I'm just grateful I get to practice.
The triangle to armbar has been in Judo since 1906. As example in The game of Judo/Jujutsu by Yukio Tani's book in 1906. www.docdroid.net/PC2xkV8/the-game-of-jujitsu-yukio-tani-koizumi-1906.pdf
@@emperorjimmu9941 Thats a misconception that Tsunetane Oda invented the Triangle choke in the 1920s during the golden days of Kosen competition, but he didnt invent it, he created set-ups and angles for it.
That is when they trained until everyone was good at it. Now it is Americanized because Americans don't want to wait 3 years on white belt until their sensei promoted them.
Leglocks are in fact in some Kata, they were taken out of Randori practice due to high incidence of injury. BJJ has outlawed all leg reaping for the same reason.
Fascinating footage. A lot of people watching this don't realise how contrived it is, however. In Japan at the time, huge, almost neurotic respect and obedience was given to senseis, particularly elderly ones. You see this in aikido, where students of Ueshiba practically throw themselves around at his merest touch. But you can also see this here, if you have ever practiced ground fighting. Mifune's larger opponent has many opportunities to counter, but never does, flailing around like a trapped insect before tapping out. It's largely acting, but it makes Mifune appear almost superhuman.
He is controlling his trousers at the back so as long as you keep them pulled up and then stack them, they won't be able to find the angle or movement to attack the arm.
By that point I would be more considered for the man on the ground, because in real life if he tried to keep resisting he'd just get a knee to the face.
Goes to show how little UFC fighters (who are supposed to be great at BJJ) actually know. UFC fighters are white belts in Japanese martial arts in reality, BJJ is the McDonalds of the restaurant business, good for some but of poor quality when compared to real food. Just look at these guys man and that one guy is like 70. Man if UFC fighters new any of this stuff, the UFC would be a different ball game, but then the UFC is little more than a corporate business selling goods that it claims to be the best while trying to force it's competitors out of business so that only it's inferior goods are left on the table. Sure I love the UFC but I understood a long time ago that there are some fighters that it wont sign because those fighters will totally destroy its business model. Would hate to go back to the stage where we have those Gracie leeches mind you, such a boring martial art.
El Dee The proof is that plenty of fighters have both blackbelts in japanese jujitsu and brazilian jiujitsu and they will tell you themselves that the modern brazilian jiujitsu is a more in depth martial art. I have a black belt in goshin jutsu ryu and i got it before i was even 18. I got a serious shock when i tried bjj and expected the techniques to work with out knowing proper setups.
+thecraighi There is NO actual ground grappling in "Japanese Jujutsu" all that newaza was invented in the 1880s in Osaka. Thats why there is NO videos of trditional jujutsu ground fighting kuz it doesnt exist in traditional schools. LOL FACT!
Bob Belson Thats funny because I had to do a lot of ground fighting to get my black belts in goshin jutsu ryu and kyushin ryu but mabye im just special. There isnt much ground fighting in the FORMS but every school grapples.
