It makes perfect sense. BP is a mechanical mixture. The finer the particles in that mixture the faster and more complete the chemical reaction. More complete equals cleaner. Faster equals, well, faster. Now I’d like to see 72 hour buckthorn or Cottonelle. You’ll start getting relativistic effects as the ball approaches the speed of light. Time to reach escape velocity and low earth orbit.
Yeah… but is it finer? Our esteemed vlog hosts say it’s 3F grind. Are the fines screened out of that? If so the density wouldn’t change… Perhaps the extra milling time is “pounding” more KNO3 into the bamboo particles, regardless of size…? Or am I having a brain fart?
@@Glenfilthie1 Screening (to get 3F powder) comes after pressing into pucks, which itself comes after milling. I think it's crucial for all the ingredients to be in as small particles as possible, because only then they will mix and react well. The largest fraction, be it fuel or oxidiser, will be the limiting factor (as only the surface can react with its counterpart).
Well now that begs the question what would happen if you milled your alder buck thorn & other prior top rated recipes for 72 hours. You know you gotta try it!
I'm actually surprised that so many from the pyrotechnic community in those comments skipped over an extremely important piece of context for milling times. In pyro application 4-12 hour milling times are acceptable and even preferred because you can easily reach a threshold where the powder is too fast and will begin to damage components (usually reinforced paper) or create less dramatic effects. " Antique muzzleloading propellant" is created to achieve different goals than pyrotechnic propellant. I have personally tried making pyrotechnics with muzzleloader grade BP and can attest that it burns way too fast for that application. Different tools for different jobs everyone.
I know what you are saying, but at the same time, most of us pyrotechnic guys are boosting our poweder with a stronger mixture of something else. So I feel like better powder would be beneficial. Lift charge is also a major component, where I believe sporting grade powder is a much better option. I started milling my powder at 24 hours for lift.
I don't consider it a waste of my time when it doesn't require any action on my part. Milling for 6 hours Vs. 72 is just leaving the mill plugged in longer.
@@luisgarza2036 😂👍 Yeah! Just get the ram from your meat grinder and ram it home. You’ll be fine.🤣 You could open a drive through restaurant named “Funnel and Ram”. Think of the time you could save. Just drive up and ram home a burger. Bring your own funnel.
"Wine that has been aged for 24 hours is good enough!" Those were some remarkable results. I was saying "wow!" to myself too. And congrats on hitting 100k subs!
again we run into the "everyone knows" vs "we've tested it at various mill times and this is what works" . I learned a long time ago to be wary of things "everyone knows". They may even be right for pyrotechnics. The shorter mill time might be perfect for them. But I've been watching your channel for a long time now and I've watched you change your mill times. I knew before I watched what the result was likely to be. Thanks again guys. Now pyrotechnics guys can get with the program..
I completely agree. To give the pyro guys the benefit of the doubt I think the quality of powder that is required for fireworks is not nearly as high as Sporting grade powder
@@Everythingblackpowder I agree Jake, I don't think pyrotechnics are too concerned with how clean or generally how fast the powder is but how much brilliance and puissance it has. Maybe they should try it though, it might just be the cat's meow.
You can theorize all you want but you still have to test the results, I can't think why they would think it's not worth trying to adjust all the variables.
Totally underrated channel. Been watching you since you had like 30k subs. I find it interesting with such little subs you have many big channels that are subbed and watching you guys. That says something
This , and indeed much of the channel, is an excellent example of good enough vs best. You have put far more effort into your powder research than it is worth, and I hope you continue.
This opens wide the avenue to re-testing the results of every charcoal you have tested thus far. As a working man, I realize the limitations on your time will slow results but it has also given hope to the rest of us as well. This one discovery has brought about a revolution in the understanding of those concerned that has a huge effect, unnoticed in a thousand years. As has always been mentioned, "Patience is it's own reward."
Science! My first few batches of antique muzzleloading propellant were milled for just 4 hours too and didn't perform well (though I was thrilled at the time that it worked at all). One day I decided to mill it longer just to see what happened. I let it go for 12 hours with lead balls. Like you, I found my powder performed better. Next batch I'll have to double it and see what happens.
Mate I’m watching all your vids I’m new to black powder, I reload smokeless powder cartridges but I do have a 32-20 and struggle to get pistol powder here in Australia, wow this channel is by far the. Best most in-depth tutorial on utube on black powder ! Keep up the great work !
Good Job Jake! Pyros have very low performance requirements for BP and even de-tune their powder in many cases to make it burn slower. They have no clue about squeezing maximum energy per unit mass out of a powder batch, and burn cleanliness is not a concern for them at all. I think you are right about efficient incorporation being the key to performance. I believe that the Civil War era rifle and cannon powder makers were well aware of this factor. As you noted, grinding efficiency in a ball mill increases with media density. Also, grinding efficiency is influenced by fill ratios, and overfilling of the balls in the mill drum and overcharging of the product within the media charge both reduce efficiency. Industry experience seems to suggest ~50% charge of media by volume in a ball mill drum is optimum, and somewhat less than 50% of the interstitial volume of the media should be filled by the product. Greater grinding efficiency delivers shorter processing times. There will be some point of diminishing returns w/r/t processing time. This will need experimentation to determine. Try increments of 24 hours of milling, all other factors equal to find an appropriate end point for your specific equipment as a first approximation. So try another batch at 48, and another at 96 hours if you are so inclined.
The finer the components in the mix, the higher contact area between them equals to faster and more complete reaction between chemicals. That makes a BIG difference!
I am learning so much watching these videos. I thought making black powder was so simple and easy. I am learning how many factors can affect the quality of your powder. Thanks for sharing your work with everybody. Phil
I agree long term milling improves the quality of black powder. However, it's important to stir the powder to mix with the media periodically to make sure the powder is being milled and not just caked onto the milling chamber walls. The longer you mill, the faster the powder cakes, so you need to stir more often.
As someone who's interested in self-priming muskets, I have a few questions about self-priming for the muskets: 1) People tend to avoid the self-priming loading approach for flintlock muzzleloading due to the fear of unintentional discharge, like a hammer accidentally striking the frizzen, overheated pan or barrel igniting the powder. Can we make self-priming safer by putting on a leather cover on the frizzen and avoid rapid fire to overheat the parts? 2) In your video “What’s The Difference Between ‘Fg’ And ‘FFFFg’ Powder And Does It Matter?”, the 4Fg just self-prime from the barrel to the pan, even when the touch hole of the flintlock musket is not enlarged. That makes me wonder, can we perform self-priming by pouring the 4Fg into the barrel first, then pour the 2Fg or 3Fg powder into the barrel? In my hypothesis, the musket will not loss more velocity and decrease the accuracy because of too much energy leaving the barrel through the enlarged touch hole. 3) If I pour two layers of powder into the paper cartridge, one layer being 2Fg/3Fg, and another layer being 4Fg, would it work for any normal flintlock musket with a normal size touch hole to perform self-priming?
When I got my cap and ball pistol, all I could get at the time was 4f. I used it for years with no problem. No dribbling out the cap hole or anything. Not quite the same, I know.
“That seems awful… bitchin” has got to be my new favorite quote 😂 Also, it would be really cool to send a bunch of these samples off to a lab for particle analysis, you fellas could probably write or help write a really cool scientific paper like the Mythbusters once did.
Wonderful! What the pyrotechnicians forget is that shooting a lead ball through a 1/2" tube is a specialist application not comparable to lifting 3-12" shells from a mortar tube. For that, 4-6 hours suffices because you are making a cannon powder, but antique muzzleloading propellants need a bit more, as you've demonstrated. Next stop, i agree with @johndiblasi4803 , is cottonelle for 72 hours to see if you can get it past 1900 and perhaps touch 2000 fps under standard conditions. It would go viral! Alder/Buckthorn might give a greater performance increase though. as they are harder charcoals.
Great science. And the result is sensible; more milling means more surface area, which means faster reaction. This is why we start fires with kindling instead of logs.
I am still convinced the bamboo powder is so clean because it has a high inert ash content, which means you actually have less carbon present. I seem to recall that your mixture ratios are 77/13/10, so upping the carbon by 1 percent might make the bamboo propellant a bit dirtier but also perform better.
You gents keep doing your own thinking. Experimenting adds to the sport. And like others said just for kicks add mill time to cottonelle? Thanks for what you do guys. I have learned A LOT!
Will be interesting to see if it has as dramatic an impact on other previous good performers, or if one of the reasons bad performers were bad was they required more milling time. Obviously there will be other factors, but it’s an interesting possibility.
Keep the knowledge coming Jake. I learn something new with every episode and it just makes mine and my buds shooting better. Btw, I am not near ready to make my own damned video!
Man. What an awesome experiment and even better results!!! I’m wondering if the same may apply to milling ingredients for my solid rocket motor propellant!?? Obviously can’t and don’t mix the powders in the mill, but I’m thinking now a longer mill time will have to benefit the final product!!?? As for black powder it obvious there a massive benefit!!!! Top job!!!
Jake, great video's! Thanks for the education and inspirational thoughts. Milling time is definitely helping. When you did the TP powder, you added to the sulphur in the mix by using paper...here's a thought; kraft paper is the highest acid content paper produced. How about 72 hrs of milling with charred kraft paper?!? Good luck!
So now I wonder what the improvement would be with your better powders? Or if it just makes a difference with particular carbon sources? Also appreciate how you take a little bit of time to respond to people. That actually means Alot man! I wish I had you as a neighbor!
This is when I’m glad to have 2 hobbies involving home made blk powder . Fireworks and rifle powder is a big difference especially when making rockets, mortars. To rifle powders
Those pistol shots at 35 yards is some damn fine shooting out of a black power pistol......Sorry i am a day late guy's....Thanks guy's.... Old F-4 II Shoe🇺🇸
Jake, you guys are great. Never boring, always full of truth. Now for the questions. You gave a formula for blasting powder. Is that 78-17-15? I wrote down all these numbers and I forgot to label them. Now I cannot remember them. I trust your research, and I trust Beaver;s numbers. He speaks well of your research. I built a Gemmer in 50 cal and few folks know what that is. It is heavy. I do want to make Cottonelle powder. I love muzzleloading. At this moment I am making my own boots. It is work indeed. Thanks Doc
I rather suspected this might be the case... thanks for doing our research for us. My max mill time so are has been 12 hours, and it's definitely way better than 8...... The harder source woods obviously benefit from long mill times, which makes sense chemically speaking... My mill balls are linotype, which is about as heavy as lead..... Your results are conclusive....the gain is not trivial... borderline spectacular in fact. I am convinced... long mill times are the thing, especially with not-so-good charcoal wood. Thanks again for the trouble you take for us all... 🙂 x
I'm going out on a limb here. Perhaps the focus should be on charcoal density. My guess is that less dense charcoal requires less mill time to fully incorporate. The denser charcoal is harder to crush, so it requires extra time to pulverize and completely incorporate into the other ingredients. Thinking black is seems the hay was slightly better. Compare the hardest and most dense charcoal to the fluffiest charcoal after milling 72 hours to see if there are fewer improvements in the fluffy stuff.
Man, you have a great channel. I really enjoy the science and look forward to the smoke clearing and seeing what velocities you have achieved. I have 5 pounds of 2F Schuetzen - it is super dirty and I wish I hadn't purchased it. Could milling it for a few days improve its performance? Thank you for the excellent content. By the by, you are a good marksman.
I think with your comments on how dense the bamboo is compared to other charcoals used, the extra time milling helps in incorporating the ingredients. So, do you now revisit this by milling a batch 48 hours to see if it preforms the same as 72 and 96 hours to see if it now matches Swiss velocities? Also, lets see this "clean" powder in cartridges, 45 colt, Snyder etc.
I very much appreciate the content you provide as I find it very educational and entertaining. I am just starting to getting into diy "muzzleloader propellant" and am starting with the CIA method to experiment. Thank you for sharing.
I do pyro stuff and i have to say, you are completely correct. even mediocre charcoal can make decent powder if milled for 24 hours vs 4. most the time though pyro guys have no problem with quickly milled powder. usually we can just change the granule size to match our purpose, and super fast and fine powders have very limited use outside lifting small shells into the air. personally I use eastern red cedar milled for 6 hours and it will destroy medium sized shells when lifting them into the air if I use finer grains. for pyro, in the end mill time matters because we are often producing huge batches of 25+ pounds for a few months to come. I can get 3 batches done a day with ERC at 6 hours per milling using an automated timer. its just "good enough" for all pyro stuff. we don't often need the extremely fast stuff. even when using it as a burst charge in shells you can add just a couple grams of a "special" stuff sprinkled into a shell to aid in the power of the burst charge for pennies per gram. why mill it longer for pyro at that point? if you need something faster than 6 hour BP, you can just use "boosters" depending on the end use or switch to something that requires no milling and is substantially faster and more powerful. our powder just has to be good enough. A lot of guys claim theirs is "as good as Goex" and to an extent it is. when using the same grain size and quantity to lift shells, it performs identical. same exact height/hangtime. but using it in a firearm, the pyro powder will NOT have the same velocity. I think it comes down to the lack of an air gap around a bullet vs a shell and the much longer tube. Goex will very likely win. there is often a considerable gap around the shell and the walls of the mortar which means it never builds to the same pressure as in a firearm. all this being said I have milled some powders for 72 hours just to see and it definitely has a noticeable improvement but it also tends to obliterate shells. It all just comes down to optimizing mill time because I don't have 2 months to waste making only 25lbs of excellent powder vs less than 2 weeks to make 25lbs of very good powder. as a final anecdote: my black powder rockets motors will perform flawlessly with 3 hour powder. at 6 hours they are a little more punchy. at 48 hours, about 1/3 of the motors fail and explode. I view firearms as the same end use problem. you are tailoring its to a specific function and making the best powder possible. It's great for firearms and bad for pyro. whereas I am making powder that is great for pyro and bad for firearms. the soot my stuff makes would drive you crazy. greenhouse grade KNO3 and TLUD charcoal are hardly the most pure.
Great vid, thank you. A few ideas: Have you tried sonicating your KN during recrystalization? Have you tried wet milling in a solvent like naptha? Have you tried adding a catalyst like red rust?
No, no and no but the first two sound interesting. We haven’t been able to come across a solvent that all three components will dissolve in, that isn’t extremely carcinogenic and easy to obtain.
@@Everythingblackpowder The solvent is not for dissolving it limits particles from sticking together and allowing them to mill better (finer). I've used hexane, but naptha should work. I've done some experiments with KN ultrasonic crystallization. This produces very fine crystals which are easily crush-able. I have no BP info on red-rust, but there is data on red-rust as catalyst for KN decomposition. I look forward to seeing your results.
Bamboo, this brings up the question in my mind about the inventors of black powder thousands of years ago, the Chinese. Of course bamboo was and is in abundance there. So it stands to reason that their cheapest and most abundant source of charcoal would be bamboo, eh? So many things made from bamboo which produced much scrape as well. Just an idea Fellers. Those results are very impressive. So will you try milling longer with powders you already have good results with at 24 hours and try longer milling times? Kind Thanks, Many Blessings and Good Shootin! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
Enjoy your videos. I know you use rifles and handguns in your testing. Have you ever considered using blackpowder shotguns to test your powders and to develop good loads. I've been shooting blackpowder revolvers and rifles for awhile now but just starting to get into the shotguns and smoothbores. Keep up the good work.
I wonder if the density of the bamboo charcoal made it especially worthwhile to mill for longer. Be an interesting test against some of your other charcoal sources.
Jake, this makes me thinks 2 things, one has nothing to do with black powder, but everything with long mill times, the other is a request. First thing is I remember how smooth candy chocolate was discovered, I saw a documentary on chocolate in general and one the thing they talked about was a guy (?in late 1800s) that was milling it (to make candy) and forgot about it. when he finally remember his machine was running, he panicked at first, thinking he ruined it, but when he tasted it, he discover it was the best tasting chocolate he ever had! Like 3Xs the mill time I believe (don't quote me). So now the request, what about longer mill times? like 4, 5, 6, or even 7 days? can there be better higher velocities with longer than 72 hour mill times? Or could there be a point where not much is gained after 72 hours? would be really interest in seeing this in a chart. I really like your content! thanks for positing!
Pyro guys carried ona making BP after the switch to smokeless powder. Some companies continued toake commercial BP for the few people in the 60s and then more in the 70s that shoot smoke poles. Since the inter webs and youtube came about the pyro guys shared theyre knowledge. Now more of yhe BP shooters are making their own powder and needed a place to start, the pyro guys. Yes, used in different applications. Not really the same BUT it IS the same. Dont complain to much. The pyrp guys kept homeade BP going for a long time and have us all a place to start.
You have to wonder if all woods are equal but the processing of them is where there is a major difference. Milling does what exactly? Breaks down the charred fibers and compresses them? So the ratio of milling to the quality of the wood is where you could theoretically see all of the different types begin to equal each other. That and using brass media instead of the dirtier lead media.
It was nice to see you shoot paper. Definitely not needed for the powder testing. We know you can shoot and the SMR is a great shooter. Just shooting quick off hand won’t say much from powder to powder.
You do realize that now you have to backtrack and re-mill all your old attempts the new prescribed time .... what else were you doing anyhow right ? great video
You mentioned that bamboo charcoal was denser. I know most other people use lead media when milling, you use brass media. Brass is much less dense, so it stands to reason you might need more milling from your media. When I get mine set up I was thinking of using copper balls, which would need the same consideration. It seems the more a powder is thourghly mixed, the better it would burn. Don't take to much advice from pyrotechnic guys, they are after a different end result. -Happy smokin'.
I've wondered this pretty seriously. I've wondered if anyone has ever looked under a microscope to look at the results and tested the speed and power at which it burns depending on milling times? I've seen Many videos over the years, but I don't recall anyone testing it to an extreme. I think I've only seen people test up to 24 hours... but separate from testing, I've seen people mill for several days. There's no way to compare though, because the powders were made by different people, out of different ingredients and made in different processes.
I have no experience making black powder. With that said, is there a process where you can mix (mill) the ingredients using distilled water (or whatever) in blender as a slurry, pour that onto paper to remove some of the water and then go straight to pucking it?
Yeah it’s ok to mill for 6 hours if your making fireworks. If you want great antique muzzleloading propellant for your rifle may I suggest you listen to this man and mill for 24 to 72 hours . The next batch of Cottonelle I brew up I think I’m going to set it and forget it and maybe even let it go for a solid five days. Also I don’t know if any of y’all have tried it before but I had a batch were I mixed 50/50 cottonelle and bamboo charcoal and it was pretty damn good.
Have you ever tried Buck Horn 209 it’s a substitute for black powder. I use it in my Woodman Arms in-line 45 cal. It’s so clean they say you never have to clean your rifle. I put 45 shots through mine and it still load like the first. I also have a Flintlock my uncle built for me in 50 cal. that I use gox 3f in it and I’m lucky to shoot it 5 times before I have to clean it. I still think your a hoot and love your channel and thanks for doing.
The Algorithm requires engagement so... Paper for the good powders sounds like a good idea, as do others suggestion of doing the same test with some of your other powders. While I'm left curious about where the limit on milling really is you've done more than enough without running the same powder in the mill for a week straight or more just to see when diminishing returns vs time start to kick in, assuming they haven't already kicked in at 3 days.
0:25, definitely ignore them. When I was doing fuel cell ceramic research we'd mix for 18 hours or more because mixing is important. Its the same way with black powder. Unless the chemicals are extremely finely mixed they won't react. They just wont. And if they don't react they just make more fouling and don't contribute to the energy released when you shoot it. Edit: isn't learning fun!
Have you guys ever looked at the media under a microscope after you've finished milling it? A lot of our engineering world fails to advance due to a lack of comprehension of what we cannot observe with the naked eye. We form all sort of theories about stuff we make based on testing but never actually have a good look at the microscopic realities. To use an example: Coffee aficionados say in order to have a fabulous cup of coffee, the grind size, particle size, grind uniformity, exposure to water, water temperature, and brew time are all very necessary to control in order to have a really good result. You can take the best, most expensive coffee that's been roasted to the perfect time, and it turn out rather lousy without proper grinding, temperature, brew time. My theory about the BP powder milling is you are achieving a much more uniform grain particle, probably much more spherical in shape, and as such, the burn consistency and flame propagation between all the grains is only getting much better as the charge ignites. It's equivalent to burning a bunch of uniform BB's compared to jagged particles of gritty abrasive sand, of all different sizes. That's my theory. Seems like you can have the best ratio of elements in the world, but if the combustion process isn't taking into account the mechanics and physics of grain size and shape uniformity, the result can only be so good.
Jagged particles will actually burn faster as they have more surface area. But everything else you said is on point. Leaves me wondering about the upper limit when the ingredients start getting incorporated to the nanoscale. But that's going to take ridiculous mill time with conventional methods.
@@Slowly_Going_Mad Jagged having greater surface areas, yes, but milling method produces naturally spherical grains, which has increased performance the longer it's happening. Leads me to believe the combustion science is where this is getting optimized.
I sometimes would mill my powdered for about a week because i would forget about it and the batches i would forget for a long time would always be the best.
That is amazing!!! 200 fps increase! For pyrotechnic visual displays, you probably don’t have to mill longer. But for this purpose, you just proved your point to me. Just remember to remove all the pork fat from your chopsticks before charring.🥴
Good video Jake! Very impressive results with the bamboo powder. Lets see all the naysayers make a video with their powder if they so knowledgeable about it.
As others have said, seeing different types milled for 72 hours would be cool as a comparison. I'm more interested in how 24 hours and 48 hours stack up to 72. My guess is that it'd follow logarithmic curve with increasingly smaller gains, but seeing how it curves out might push the question from "are you willing to mill for 3 days?" to "are you willing to mill overnight?" which is a much smaller ask.
Interesting results. As far as putting some shots on paper, I think it is worthwhile for the better performing powders because what good is a really powerful powder if you can't hit anything with it?
I usually milled for at least 12 hours with my Poplar/Aspen/Cottonwood BP. I found it wasn't nearly as good when only milled for 6. I used lead media. I would sometimes mill for up to 24 hours if I had the patience.
You have something now Jake, how about milling some of your alder buckthorn for the same extended time an seeing what happens - for science and curiosities sake.
