Mimetic Rivalry and the Hobby 

Here is the article I referenced: violenceandreligion.com/mimetic-theory/

I was drawn to the OSR from out of the 5e space for two main reasons. 1. As a conservative, I found like minded folks in the OSR space. Of great importance was the fact that a decent majority of folks sought to REMOVE culture war politics from their games. 2. The encouragement from the community to take ownership of my table. To make my game my own, as opposed to dealing with bad faith broken character builds and reams of backstory. As someone who is still relatively new to the scene, Shadowdark was one of the first OSR adjacent games I bought. I stashed the pdf in my google docs and forgot about it in favor of Castles & Crusades. I’ve been playing regularly the past few months and it’s been a blast. I really don’t see the reason for all the hate.

I think that the idea that Shadowdark is screwing over the rest of the OSR is silly. If anything, it's providing an off-ramp for 5e players, which I think is a good thing as 5e gets more and more stupid, woke, and corporatized. The haters are just being ugly and jealous.

1:24 Things I didn't expect to see mentioned in RPGs : Girard's theory of the scapegoat.

Thanks for pointing toward an interesting intellectual iceberg! I think I have had me head in the sand or something, because I wasn't aware of too much drama with Shadowdark until a few days ago. But then, I'm not a huge fantasy gamer... But this memetic rivalry is a fascinating rabbit hole to go down.

So, FOMO and jealousy. This goes back a long way. Satan wanted to be equal with God. Things have been going downhill ever since. 😅

Crab theory is probably simpler

Choking out the OSR?? What, with the 0.5% of the market Shadowdark commands? We are all eating scraps down here. Bless her for her success. OSR game writers: if you're feeling left behind, step it up. If you're not finding success where she has, ask yourself what it is YOU are lacking. RPGPundit is a good example of bottom rung cannibals, who CANNOT STAND to celebrate someone else's success, and it's not like he's unsuccessful himself.

I appreciate that you pointed out the dirty way people with a narrow identity often act, Regardless of Their Political Stance. It's that narrow identity that is fragile, and while not all are jerks many are maliciously defensive of that status. There's nothing wrong with having a group. When you start focusing on the "purity" of the group, you're on the path to violence. I don't mean being grumpy towards people you don't want to hang out with, I mean this scapegoating and ostracizing, which some people follow up with attacks on reputation and escalate from there.

Sounds like envy to me. Just sour grapes. I enjoy OSR products, but I guess I'm not emotionally attached to them the way I used to be attached to other products in the past. EDIT: the only reason I don't already own Shadowdark is because I'm broke. Otherwise I would have already bought it as well as a bunch of other OSR stuff I want.

This perception that other people's success sucks away your own says significantly more about you than the person doing better than you.

Congrats to her for creating something that people are buying and playing. I have no interest in her game but that is merely because I am too invested in AD&D 2E and BECMI. I don't have room for another fantasy game if I am being honest. I really only play AD&D 2E, BECMI and Mongoose Traveller 2E/2300ad. The people causing problems over her work are just children that need attention. She should be praised for actually creating a TTRPG that is making waves. This is one reason I ignore social media.

I've been scripting my response to the shadow dark controversy. There's a lot of tribalism, a lot of envy, and a lot of bucket crab mentality involved but there's also a heavy presence of reactionary absolutism too.

A thought-provoking take on the current drama, well said.

"I only am who I am because I was born that way. I have a gift and I am trying to not be selfish about it but to use it. Okay? And if you want to knock me for that, it's your own problem. Okay? Jealousy will get you nowhere. I'm gonna keep rockin' on!" - Eddie Adams Having seen her not knowing she wrote those rules, just playing games at NTRPG my take is she's just a gamer who enjoys playing and running fantasy RPGs. In that brief interaction she seemed undiscernible from other old school GMs enjoying themselves. As for the source of envy, what's fascinating is it's entirely non-monetary since there is no real money to be made, it's just over glory.

As they said on the chan boards, Are You Pro-Skub or Anti-Skub? With Skub standing in for what ever you want.

Excellent and thought provoking video. I had to watch it twice to pick up on some of the finer details.

Thanks for the video Jon

For me a big part of the success of Shadowdark is the layout. I ignore a lot of OSR games due to poor layout. Want my attention? Then learn from Kelsey Dionne and Gavin Norman and Frank Mentzer - get good at the process of presenting your material on a page!

I mean if you tell anyone in business or finance that one entity is screwing over another(by being successful?). They'll say good for them. That's literally the point of any business venture. To captivate the market. Not that things are that simple. I mean are not the different books within the same system competing with eachother on some level. I know i might have actually suffered the misfortune of buying a 5e module if there weren't so many resource books.

"SJWs and Culture Warriors are more alike" BINGO!

It's an interesting thought. I would like to hear more about why you think the role-playing game market has no market cap at all. Why do you believe there are infinite customers buying infinite books?

The envy of ShadowDark seems to me to be caused by zero sum economic thinking. Zero sum thinking assumes all income to one person takes income from another. You got into it in the fifth minute. I totally agree with your thinking.

Shadowdark came at right place and right time. You got other ones like 5 Torches Deep that were a mix of 5e and OSR that didn’t get that kind of attention. I may pickup shadowdark at some point but I got multiple other D&D adjacent games that are sitting on my shelf that I want to use. If I could just get only the GM’s section out Shadowdark that would be awesome.

Thank you for explaining this theory. I was not familiar with it, though I am quite used to the social phenomenon. To be fair, I only see this kind of behaviour online. When I'm playing any kind of roleplaying game (indie, OSR or even DnD), the players are just there to have a good time.

It's more like a the monkey ladder experiment or a crab bucket. Scapegoating would be if everyone blamed Shadowdark for the failings of 5e.

Good video. Excellent perspective. For me, ShadowDark RPG is a great take on another way that old school D&D could have been. Honestly, in some ways, it is simpler than B/X, from a pure rules perspective (ignoring presentation and non-rules elements). It also looks very easy to homebrew stuff for without breaking it. I personally love Old School Essentials and would not part with it. Same goes for my old B/X and BECMI stuff. And, Swords & Wizardry, and Castles & Crusades. And, OSRIC. But, if I were to design a D&D clone/emulator, right now, I think ShadowDark RPG would be a great place to start. But, I look at the whole of ShadowDark RPG as not really presenting rules. Rather, it presents an internally consistent framework from which a great game can be ran. I was recently in a game where the DM was trying to run B/X // OSE and I noticed he was experiencing frustration with a lot of the rules and so were several of the players. As I watched, I couldn't help but think that had ShadowDark RPG been his framework, most of his and the players' frustrations could have been avoided. Rather than making ShadowDark RPG the villain, I think there are some things to learn from in there. And, perhaps someone (or perhaps several) will go about producing other D&D variants that improve upon ShadowDark RPG has done. I do not think that ShadowDark RPG is a danger to the OSR. On the contrary, it shows that there's still room for the OSR to grow. Sure, some might think that if it isn't directly cloning a TSR version of the Game, it's not OSR. But, I would ask, should that be the goal? What if fun, ease of use, and a great gaming experience was the goal?

It's like the theory that not everybody can be wealthy, because there isn't enough money in the world. Wealth is created by work and creativity. It's infinite. The same is true of the OSR. Every good OSR system can be successful. If they are good, people will buy them, and people will play them. It will them increase the number of consumers, thereby increasing the chance of success (assuming it's good).

Conversations on Twitter and RU-vid about gaming of any kind, and especially independent development, is like a bunch of people noticing how they don't live in a society enough. It is an industry talking about an industry... King Waspinator 's Clout Snake character repeated in reaction ad infinitum. Even good people, good participants in industries, are sucked into the vortex so long as they are not acknowledging which rules they expect an industry to follow; the worst part of trade unions is how they tend not to represent their purported purposes and instead try to take control for the control, and the less transparency there is in that the more it tends to actually revert to coercion, bullying, and even violence. ... and the obvious political actors against activism aren't worth listening to if they don't follow their own rules and aren't holding themselves to standards keeping these factors (in themselves) in check, and doing so transparently. But... if it's for gaming, and not control of an industry, or the corollary to a trade union or social network or guild (for lack of a different and less implicit choice of words), then there doesn't really need to be a conversation about it. The value of the conversation itself comes into question, and seems to ask for some clarity of definition of purpose. (I don't want to unsee the mass psychology or scapegoating as much as I don't want to repeat it myself)

Well done, sir, well done indeed!

I got expelled from the Old School @2024

There is a distinct irony in the scarcity mindset here, as Shadowdark appears to have brought a large audience along with it. There’s a fair chance that those players, new to old school gaming will want to branch out.

OSR has had a constant and repetitive cycle of pointing at scapegoats for their lack of dramatic success. The reality, from the start, is that the hobby as a whole is so small that there really is not money for everyone who produces content for the hobby to make a living at it. Pareto means only a small number of creators will find monetary success. And, the failures will always have a need for a new scapegoat.

Petition to rename the OSR to the Goatscape.

Take a drink every time someone posts a negative video about Shadowdark. I tried to join Basic Experts villain arc legion of Doom, I wanted to be Gorilla Grodd, but it turns out I'm the condiment king

It isn’t about economics, but ideology. Hell even Pundit’s decades long war against ‘story games’ was on the basis of ideology rather than any practical element of design. For them any failure in the market implies a failure of their ideology. And for the most part the entire indie market is like this now. I have some theories as to why this is the case, but none of them would help fix the issue. Meanwhile #ShadowDark is well designed and delightfully free of any such proselytism. So if it’s taking market share from other games that’s fine with me, despite the fact it’s not my cup of tea.

Interesting video! Sometimes a background in Philosophy just over complicates the truth ( I use Occum’s Razor) - why not just “Haters gotta Hate”? - jealous talentless wannabe game designers cast shade on successful others -

I'm not an american, so maybe I don't know anything, but it seems to me that extreme ideological purity has some roots in american puritanism. American far progressives seem seem to have alike mindset, but competely mirrored ethics to reactionaries. Non religion treated like religion, anti-conservative norms just as rigid as conservative ones. It's weird to me, an atheist progressive social democrat.

SD has zero presence in my local circuit. It's like no one's even heard of it. It can't possibly be choking out anything.

This really just sounds like more reasons to take Grognard complaints with a grain of salt and to enjoy the games you like despite the drama.

I don’t know about all the choking out other games and stuff, but why all the hype about her game? I looked it over and it’s pretty much like all the rest. Here is another game that does this, does that, and timer on torches. Whoopee! I don’t get it. She takes concepts that have been in other games and packages them neatly is all I’ve seen. it’s just another OSR

It is really absurd to suggest the success of Shadowdark is costing other 3rd party independent creators. Shadowdark is actually leading me into buying other OSR rulesets and independent publishers to add to my coming Shadowdark campaign. Previowuly, our group had been 3.5 players and then Pathfinder when 4.0 came out. So if not for Shadowdark, I’m not sure if I would have gone down the OSR rabbit hole and checked out other systems, and I bet there are lots of other people out there with similar experiences.

I neither understand the appeal nor the hatred of Shadow dark. It just seems like another old school product.

i find this troubling that we even need to have this conversation. The strength of the hobby, from my view, was the support it has for everyone within it, no matter what your flavour of gaming. Do i blame any one entity for this seeming dissension? possibly, one maybe a few corporate entities have a large part in creating this negative hype and creating negative rivalry instead of positive support. I would love for my game to be the next greatest thing in our hobby, and yet I am not dwelling on anything, but am enjoying seeing others becoming successful, such as Kelsey and Shadowdark. Which is how this hobby should be moving forward. Support is fleeting within a capitalist society. If we dig deeper, maybe we can find it again. Play what you love, 5e, OSR, whatever you want to call it, just play stop bringing others down to lift yourself up. Ego and pride grow dissension.