Very much agree. I wish more discussions around MTG cards would be more contentious. It shows there's some nuance to evaluation. These guys do a good job with that.
I actually really liked the Sythis discussion, though I'm not taking sides. It's just always fun when you get a little bit of conflict in a set review, it livens things up
I'm going to have to go for a rebuttal here, Commanders are more fun when you decide how you want to break them. Saying things like "Commander is more fun when you don't break it" leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
@@enoeht obviously the real answer is that fun is subjective, but Matt's point does underline that there's a substantial population in EDH that has exploitation fatigue.
Sythis encourages a deck archetype that isn't voltron, or at least doesn't have to be, so comparing it to commanders that are building around Auras or Creatures is just incorrect
I agree 110%. You don't have to have aura's in here I think the only aura's you'll have is the buff for each enchantment affects and ones that bounces themselves back
I don't think the voltron versions are necessarily built around auras either. At least mine, and most good ones I've seen, aren't. They have auras, but it's not like those decks aren't also running things like Sigil of the Empty Throne or Starfield too.
@@danaroach29 I see this commander as a pillowfort/stax deck. She isn't really needed to be cast she'll just be there as value. She's less about attacking and more about waiting
If you include it in the 99, how many enchantments do you think you need in the deck to make it work? I wonder if it’s decent in lifegain decks with 15 enchantments in it like Lathiel
My question is, has he ever played a non-aura enchantment deck? Sigil of the empty throne? Overwhelming splendor? Literally any of another dozen enchantment wincons? Heck, not even looking at locks like solemnity + phyrexian unlife etc.
I'm with Dana about Sythis, people are a little too in love with value. Tuvasa is an engine that also kills you, no need for auras, plus blue. Sythis will be amazing (and I'm gonna add it to my Tuvasa list) because is herself an enchantment, but probably will struggle with finishing the job.
I have a Tuvasa deck as well and most of the time if I don't combo out, I win through commander damage with her from all the enchantments I've played throughout the game. Sythis would not have been able to do this without suiting up a bunch of auras and making her an attractive target.
One line that stuck out to me is the counterargument to Sythis being a pure value commander is "well you still need a way to win a game" Your commander doesn't have to be the engine and also the payoff, it could be either or, and your deck will still be quite strong. If you don't believe me, I'd like to point your sights at partners in crime Tatyova and Aesi (well, not actual _partners_ but you get the idea) I get all the people here in the comments saying "some disagreement spices up discussion" but when that disagreement is on the back of a non-starter argument, it's hard for me to get particularly interested. Like it genuinely sounds like it's just a counterpoint for the sake of saying you have one.
@Toxic Atom I believe the point is that the decks play like 15 enchantress cards and having a Win Con or adding blue to the command zone is what more people are going to do
I think Matt is right in that Sythis will be a powerful commander and I love her...but she is a bit boring and will probably end up getting slotted in the 99 by players most of the time, sort of like what Dana said.
Esper sentinel is also the easiest card types to return to the battlefield or protect, pump and abuse. You can clone it, turn every other creature into it etc. The floor is decent enough, and the ceiling is nuts.
@@dmaaryk7967 Of course I get it. It's a reference to Firefly/Serenity from Wash playing with his toys. I'm saying that scene works better as a kill spell or a Threaten affect, not a Bribery/Theft effect.
I like Karametra for Casual because she gives diversity to your value by pulling lands rather than drawing. Especially with how many redundant Enchantresses can go in the 99. Sythis is THE choice for cEDH though. Over on the Enchantress Discord we have been having great success in our metas.
I normally agree with Dana, but I've playtested Sythis, and she is very much not an aura commander. She's an enchantment commander, who plays a bunch of enchantments and finishes you off with constelation effects (like the throne that makes angels, or the one that makes pegesus), or can just absolutely dome you you with an Aetherflux. She's not an aura build, she just slams a sphere of safety, gains a bunch of life, and just blows you out with her 40+ enchantments. She's absolutely insaaaaaane, and very much plays out like a storm build.
Sythis is the most powerful enchantment commander ever. Talk to legacy enchantress players, turn two enchantress every game, nuts. Its going to look more like a storm deck than an aura deck. Also the stance that “what happens when your commander gets removed right away?” Looks flimsy when you also say “this deck has no problem getting an engine online with the other enchantress effects in green white”.
Matt has the best hair another week in a row😲 but Dana makes great points about Sythis. Great discussion. Personally, I'd rather add blue to my enchantress deck and toss her in the 99 so I can run Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora for more card draw through other means. Drawing is drawing I don't care how I do it haha 🤷♂️
Disagree with Dana for sure: Sythis is no voltron commander, but would be PERFECT for any combo in white/green. I am thinking churning through your deck to get heliod/ballista, squirrels nest/earthcraft, rest in peace/helm of obedience, or even a parallax wave/opalescence. You will churn through your deck FAST to find these items. Now throw in any easy enchantment for extra mana, and you can get these pieces down quick with decent protection to boot.
@@danaroach29 I am not sure what you mean? I know Siona has a combo herself from the command zone, so she could be faster for that one combo lines, however no way is she digging faster than Sythis unless you are just all out trying to blink her to get that seven card peak.
I just want y’all to know that at 23:50, after 5 minutes of saying it over and over, I can finally confidently say Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar. Thanks boys!
Honestly I agree with Dana about the enchantress, although having a legitimate enchantress in the command zone is bonkers I don't think it makes for an exciting deck as someone who's had an Enchantress deck since back in the day of seeing Melissa De toras deck on game knights. I much rather play tuvasa for blue copy enchantment spells or sigarda who's just a nightmare to answer. I do think for first time enchantress players will be lured in by her draw potential though. And she's obviously not a bad commander
It's still too slow and doesn't give evasion. You cast it turn 6, pray it isn't removed, then maybe deal some decent damage. 1 wrath before the attack would happen or after surviving it and you probably lost the game after that
@@titanlord2000 not necessarily true. In a lifegain deck, you usually have cards that lifegain whenever an opponent does something. For instance, soul warden will at the very least buff your creatures by 1 every turn, at least more than likely. Second, there's a very good card in shattered angel which gains you three life any time an opponent plays a land. And it's one you can drop right before the nykthos boi. Just in my experience you usually gain life on each of your opponents' turns in a lifegain deck. At worst it does nothing though, which does suck. But second worst it's a magnet for removal that doesn't hit your other lifegain cards.
Sythis is gonna be crazy powerful. Plenty of wincons to be had, but Tuvasa is more powerful as a voltron commander. But I will still keep my Tuvasa deck because I like having my thassa’s Oracle and enchanted evening style wins. Definitely going into the Tuvasa deck as one of the best cards in the deck. A Sythis deck will definitely be a faster deck than Tuvasa, just not as much interaction.
Out of Time phases creatures out, meaning they never LEAVE the battlefield, meaning they never re-ENTER the battlefield. Those creatures will return with pseudo-haste, but ETB triggers won't go off. (I've had to re-read the phasing entry in the rules many many times...)
As someone who has played against a Sythis deck a few times in my playgroup, I can confirm Sythis is insane. If you can't keep the deck interrupted, it's damn near impossible to keep up with. Sure, maybe it's not strictly Sythis making that deck go off, but she is extremely powerful.
TBH I mostly agree with dana about sythis, however if you are not going for combat at all, and you have some other weird win con in mind for an enchantment deck then it can be a really good option for a commander. Most likely would end up being an engine for getting combo enchantments like squirrel nest, although not sure what you would be going for exactly without blue. I think it mostly ends up being a commander that you use if you don't want to build around a commander and just want some free value for your main gameplan than a build-around.
While I disagree with Dana. It is nice to hear some discussion around Sythis. I agree with Matt, Sythis is just playing enchantments for value not aura voltron. They can play all the enchantment token makers and win out of no where with Epic Struggle or if you want another great win the game card Approach of the Second Sun is easy to cast twice a turn when you have the mana doubling enchantments out and a few enchtantresses. Overall I really like Sythis and think she will be good.
@@danaroach29 They seem to understand it far better than you. An enchantress deck doesn't need to be aura/voltron focused. A 2cmc draw engine in the command zone can find you a win condition faster than suiting up your 5 cmc hexproof commander and attacking for 21. Suppose you drop things like exploration or burgeoning, with Sythis out you draw and ramp enough to be able to replay her for the rest of the game. Below are a few enchantment-based wincons beyond voltron: - Sigil of the Empty Throne + a lot of cheap enchantments - Squirrel-Nest + Earthcraft - Siona + Shielded by Faith - Heliod (works really well with Sythis lifegain) + Walking Ballista - Parallax Wave + Opalescence I've playtested the deck and Sigarda isn't even close to Sythis. There's an argument to Tuvasa due to giving access to blue though.
Nykthos Paragon is very narrow but in the decks that want it, it will do a lot of work. I love the differing view points in the discuss though. Gives the audience more to think about.
I agree with Dana as I have a tuvasa deck and I wouldn’t add sythus as the commander because blue is such a good color to add. Tuvasa operates at flash speed so I like that versatility so I can try to not get 2 for 1’d. Tuvasa gets huge with all of the little enchantments so I’ll be hitting for 14 or something pretty early in the game. If you build tuvasa in the flash route you’ll often draw just as many cards as sythus and will likely draw into an enchantress.
Esper Sentinel fits well in Human- themed Sigarda, Heron's Grace. Tribal pumps + Commander protection makes it better for late game. Also, I like that I can benefit from the same opponent multiple times in each full turn cycle.
I completely agree with Joey on his assessment of the black cards. Unmarked Grave and Persist will have a place in reanimation because of how many pieces the deck needs to be effective.
So Question since Search the premises says whenever a creature attacks you or a planeswalkers you control does that mean you investigate for each creature since in doesn't say one or more
I think Dana is completely correct with Sythis. The real strength of a commander is having consistent access to its effect. You really want your enchantress effects every game so it seems like a no-brainer to want it in the command zone, but your enchantress effects are already the most redundant part of your deck. And your opportunity cost in running Sythis is that you have less consistent access to a win condition or key enablers, like Tuvasa or Sigarda provide. Sythis is just adding consistency to the already most consistent part of your deck and leaves you to fend for yourself with putting together a wincon. It's not an "incorrect" choice to run Sythis, but I think other commanders will actually prove more valuable than Sythis in guiding your deck to winning.
So my argument for sythis is that instead of worrying about auras, she plays very well with value enchantments and constellation cards, especially if they have a lifegain bend
Out of Time is probably going to be interesting with Zur and Vanishing, as a fully fetchable board wipe that is arguably the best wipe in the game, avoiding all manner of recursion (including recasting of Commanders) provided you can protect the enchantment. Zur can generally do that too fairly well.
I want to like Young Necromancer, and I might sneak it in, but I've already got Hell's Caretaker in, and Sheoldred, not sure if I need a 3rd reanimation engine. I *hate* the exile two cards, my Meren deck doesn't self-mill, so it tends to have a small yard, and can't afford to keep doing that. I suspect I'd be better off just sticking to what I'm using. I might want Vile Entomber, but it'd be displacing something, so we'll see. The reduced mana cost can actually be relevant on the Lamia for example. Dauthi Voidwalker however is insanely good for black, a card roughly as pushed as the silly Opposition Agent that nobody likes playing against (or playing with). Black gets access to cards that are roughly as good as anything ever printed for high level play, while white gets Esper Sentinel and is told to be happy because it's less mana than Rhystic Study. I would like to point out that the 'white' card doing something similar is not only hilariously weaker, it's also more obnoxious since it's a colour-hoser. I'm sure there is a reason out there why white can't have nice things, but saying Sanctifier is 'comparable' seems entirely too generous. That's almost a *bad* card, might even be one depending on your meta. Just ugh WotC.
Sythis doesn't need to be aura's. "It won't be good cause removal" nothing is good cause of removal. Sythis will be a very strong commander jolreal will be nice with her as well. It can be a token enchantment deck. She can also be played in stax
I think the problem with out of time is not the potential for the creatures to come back, but the fact that you cant play it while your commander is out without loosing it for a long time.
But you have to exile 2 cards for it to work. Sure you can mill yourself to have no cards but you will also have no cards in gy. If you add other peices it could be a combo but i dont see a 2 card combo
@@AnthonyCapps ehh i dont think its good as that either. Its a real cost to exile 2 cards each time. I have muldrotha deck with alter an there are so many better ways to churn. Like if your lokking for a card tutors work better an your not filling your grave cus you are exiling the cards you jus milled. Stichers supplier is 7 cards in the bin for 1 mana. There is that blue enchantment that does 10 a turn if you have acend or something. Underrealm lich an a lil bit of draw fills your bin in a way better way. Not to mention hermit druid if you got the budget. What your describing is a bad tutor at the cost of 2 cards an exiling basiscaly your whole gy an deck to get to your combo peice. Jus run a 4 cost tutor it will do this better
Dana is in the right here about enchantress and Voltron. Either deck you are setting up an engine, and in aggressive/voltron builds. You want an evasive creatures swinging as soon as possible. I understand you will be able to set up an engine a turn or even 2 turns earlier having a 2 drop enchantress in the command zone. But engines are very consistent and in the 99 with this new 2 drop, there are plenty of 3 drop and 2 drop enchantress that you can get turn 3, so having access to the creature is far more important. Now, it will be really strong still, but undeniably the deck with the hexproof flying creature will have the advantage.
As far as the tutoring goes how often do you know what you need to tutor for? Sometimes I wait to tutor until I've played most of the cards in my hand cuz I have things to do. Waiting for a tutor to unsuspend is fine cuz it gives u more time to analyze the boardstate. If ppl try to target u after suspending u can argue that yall might need an answer in a few turns after player X begins to assemble their engines or w/e
You missed the interaction of Opalescence/Starfield of Nyx and Out of Time. It'll enter as creature, will be phased out as well and everything will stay phased out until the game end or the player who played Out of time dies.
My nicol bolas the ravager dragon tribal control deck is hyped for murktide regent. Tons of instants and sorceress to put in the yard and exile to make it chunky then with backdraft hellkite giving instants and sorceress flashback thats more coming out of the yard
Man, I just want to have an "Iconic Cards of Magic" Garth deck. Just load it up with all of those cards that people remember throughout Magic's history.
Matt I get the hype..but I have to say I agree with Dana. In the 99 its bonkers, it's most definitely going in my tuvasa deck. To give up blue wouldn't be fun.
I think you guys are SUPER wrong about Nykthos Paragon. Like in terms of ways to anthem your board in the right deck it is going to put in just as much work as Cathars' Crusade. It is certainly more niche, even in life gain decks your just as often gaining 1 a bunch as you are gaining large amount, but in decks that gain large chunks this is going to be absurd. Like playing this with Trostani anthems the team for 6, and it only gets more powerful when you realize you can get the counters during someone else's turn too.
Players can't be wrong 99% of the time about evaluating mono white card draw on creatures, there have only been a handful of cards that even meet that requirement, no where near 100.
FINALLY SOMEONE SPOKE ABOUT THE GREEN WHITE ENCHANTRESS COMMANDER. Man, talk about a boring and ineffective general, thanks for point out that stuff Dana.
Agree with Dana..... Sythis as a general is strong, but not as strong as people make her out to be. Sure you can build her in a way to weaponize the draw and lifegain, but then everyone's deck will look the same after than. But hey, it's another option, and a very good one at that. Maybe in lower power level playgroups where no arms-races occur she'll be fun for the table :)
I mean I don't agree with Dana in regards to Sythis, she seems reasonably nutty, but my real strong feelings are that no one mentioned Kestia as an enchantress commander, and she's my boo
ideas for white value: creature(s) with reduce the activation cost of clues by two; 3W divination with convoke; 3W cultivate with convoke, put both on field if oppo has more lands; scry/cycling as a mechanic can be more emphasized in white
I dont like those cards at all. I see alot of people jus wanting white to be another color. Why does it jus get bad versions of blue an green cards why not make actually white cards. How about WW or maybe jus W for an enchant land it gains tap make a treasure. White could have harrow imo i feel like sacing one land for more is white not green.white should have stuff that rewards blocking say a draw a card whenever a creature blocks or whenever an opponent gains life, has creature die etc draw. I want white cards that are good in monowhite but also an actual reason to splash white with other colors. That land enchatment works great with blue untapers greens token doubling. If you have white in a 3 color or more deck, you 100 percent have swords maybe path maybe smothering an ondu inversion. White is not worth runnin in a deck with other colors. I dont think those cards help with that issue, id jus run the better colored versions, and in my angel or knight mono white deck both those cards suck. I dont wanna have to build around artifacts esper sentinal is cool cus he happens to be one but im not forced to run any artifact stuff.
Nykthos paragon isn't even good enough to make it into my dedicated lifegain deck, and it's a 4-5! Rather disappointed with that card. Thankfully, Strixhaven gave me a whole bunch of new lifegain cards to play with.
