Monarch 10EE Lathe Restoration 4: Removing the Motor Drive System 

I'd vote for painting her the color she was made with, that battleship grey, as a reminder of the war she helped win.

Keith, I just want to thank you for all you do for the world of vintage machinery. I have a 1959 Gorton Mastermil vertical mill and a 1966 Springfield 280 lathe. Your videos have helped me with maintenance and repairs, machining tips, and I'm now going through a full restoration on my lathe with your help. Your channel and website have done a ton for the hobby. Thank you.

I've seen a lot of Monarch lathes over the years, i've never seen on taken apart to this extent. This is really cool to watch.

Those old DC motors are practically indestructible.There is a DC motor that is still in my late father’s motor shop.He dug it out of a mud puddle.cleaned it up and,ran it.Still works.

War finish or not, that base casting is a beautiful piece of work! I’d love to have seen the pattern & core work for a piece that size. “They don’t make ‘em like that any longer…”

I hope you make it clear to the sand blasters that the protection bolts need to stay in during the blasting. I also hope you will overhaul that DC motor. I did plenty of DC motors as an appentice. We would strip them down dry out the windings in a walk in oven to get a good reading to earth. Then skim the comm in a lathe undercut and fit new brushes. If you do it will last for another 50+ years.

I understand about elevating the Monarch. I've have to rebuild my Troybilt tiller this winter. Plans are to place it saw horses to avoid working on the floor. I can get down to floor level, but getting back up is such a chore

Absolutely love these big old motors, they are so well made and easy to work on if you need to make any repairs. That DC generator is also a lovely bit of equipment and if it can be used again in the repair if another piece of equipment, that would be fantastic.

Love old equipment! It's a shame that equipment's not built this good nowadays! Would like to rebuild my Pratt & Whitney model B!

FYI, the brackets / hooks on the lower front of the lathe are for a rod that knocks out the jarno taper adapter for the headstock center not the collet closer. The "motor" you described on the top of the MG set is not the "motor" That is actually what is know as the "exciter" which is a DC generator that provides DC voltage for the controls and the shunt field for the main spindle drive motor. The AC motor is actually in the lower unit of the MG set you pulled out and it is inline with a second generator that provides the DC voltage for the armature of the main spindle DC drive motor. The MG set is summary is one AC motor and two DC Generators. I love mine it works great!

Thanks for donating the parts to the streetcar museum. They do a nice job and give rides on the weekends in warmer weather.

I love watching machine rebuilds. Looking forward to another one.

Keith: That Manufacturer's number, in modern government parlance, is called a FSCM - Federal Supply Code for Manufacturers. I don't know if we commoners have access to the list, but were I still working for the Navy, I could look it up. They probably haven't changed in all these decades. Thanks for the video. Jon

Keith, the "motor" on the top is not the drive motor to the dc generator, that is the "exciter" it generates power to the field winding of the spindle motor. The motor generator is all of the same lower housing and shares the same shaft. The motor generator is a very good and extremely reliable system once gone through properly.

It's wonderful that this machine and the others You restore are saved from destruction and become an active time capsule that in the future folks can look to in learning how to make quality machines.

I'm going to have to check out that museum! Don't live too far away.

Boys will be boys, and we love our toys! Lovely DC motor.

Very interesting Keith, especially the motor generator and large DC motor. keep up the good work restoring engineering machinery and preserving our industrial heritage. (UK viewer)

Something positive before my day starts! Thanks for the video Sir.

Thanks for showing AC motor driving DC motor.

Candy apple red is my preferred colour. It's going to be awesome!

Hi Keith, Thanks for a short trip down memory lane. When I finished ET (Radar) school in the Navy and was sent to my ship I found a Decca Radar system (not military) with two motor-generator sets. Ships power was generated using Diesel generators at 220VAC, 3phase, 60Hz. It was mostly distributed as 110VAC 1phase for general use and lighting. My radar needed 220VAC, 3Phase, 60HZ; 220 VAC, 1phase, 400HZ; 220VAC, 1phase 1,000HZ, and 110VAC, 1 phase, 60HZ. Aside from ships power I had two mg sets to generate the 400HZ and 1000HZ power. They were direct drive, with a somewhat flexible coupling between the motor and generator, both were bolted to a rigid, steel framework that was bolted to the steel deck. Maintenance was to check the lube once a week, verify the voltage and frequency once a month, and check bearing play once a year. They ran an average of four hours a day for four years with no problems. Worst case when we were in the far north and in ice, was 24 hours a day for two weeks. BTW, the radar set was a hybrid with some solid state components and the high power circuits managed with large vacuum tubes.

It's always a great history lesson when I watch your videos. Thanks Keith.

Happy to see the pliers are useful!

Very nice Keith!

Looking forward to this build. Great content.

Anxious to see how it turns out! Thanks Keith! God bless!🙏🎚🇲🇾🇲🇾🇲🇾

If it is a war machine, that is a history worth hanging onto. I'd paint it back the same, just for the history.

Good to see you're still at it Keith! Great project!

Thanks for sharing!

Your workmanship is just outstanding. Wish I lived closer as I’d be there to be your helper / gopher. Oh - I vote for Battleship Grey.

10EE is my dream lathe. I’ll have one one day but for now my 10” Logan will have to do lol

I enjoy watching the restoration videos

Happy New Year to you and your family, Keith. I'll add my thanks to those expressed by so many other of your faithful fans for all the education you have passed along. I'll never be a machinist but at least I can understand much of what they say. All thanks to you. Best John

Awesome that you're donating some parts to the Streetcar Museum in the Twin Cities. I'd ridden on their restored streetcars a few times when I lived/grew up there.

that motor is amazing, I would love to have such an amazing machine and work on its restoration

Apparently, Monarch was still in business last year. Motor/Generator sets were relatively common. I worked on flight simulators that had a motor driving a 600vdc ±300vdc) to run vacuum tube & servo motor computing systems and another one geneating 400Hz to stimulate actual aircraft instruments. Desktop computers have more power than in those days (3/4 of a century ago).

Well done Keith - I was impressed with the way that you got the motors out - always difficult when things are that heavy. Looking forward to the following episodes. Thank you for the video.

That lathe looks real nice in a light tan paint. Had 3,10EE's that color. Loved it!

Great video Kieth. A a newer subscriber I'll now have to go back and watch the first three vids on this lathe!

Well gutted! Fascinating how it all works - getting that high torque control by manual means like that. Very ingenious how it was invented in the day! Happy new year to you and all, Keith!

Thanks for another interesting video.

I don't blame you for updating things as much as possible. I learned, with ham radio, that direct current can be quite fickle compared to alternating current. Connections going bad was a constant problem, so any step you take in making sure they stay tight, clean, and corrosion free is a plus.

Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.👍👀

Another great project

Great video Keith! Paint it Fire Engine Red!

I had my 10ee bed reground by Schaffer Grinding in Los Angeles. They like you friend did an excellent job, first grinding the bottom contact points then the bedways. A good friend of mine then scraped the 6 contact points, printing off the bed. It didn’t require too long and came out perfect without needing shims. I’m enjoying this rebuild and looking forward to seeing rebuilding it. Your plan sounds terrific. Cheers, Will

Thank you for sharing Keith! It's my understanding that the original color was military gray but mine is puke green. Serial 13464, built 1-1942

Love these old machines. I have a 12" Monarch surface planer, 3 ph which I run with a phase converter. I also have an old Goisner drill press restored, a Sheldon 10" and an Atlas 10 metal lathe. Love using. Just wish I had the youth and expertise that you have. Keep up the good work.

That is a cool old motor. Hope your visit to San Antonio was good. Looking forward to the rebuild.

Good for you thinking about the streetcar people! As you know, I work at a streetcar museum; most of it is DC electricity!

Bubble gum pink to make it stand out. Only kidding. Great series of videos Kieth.

War finish - it also hid the material under. I have beautiful BLACK Silk Tool box - like those you have for machinists. My Sheldon Lathe is war Gray, I have a Navy surplus Desk and it was Mahogany and one drawer had the front pulled off and Plywood placed with a Locking hasp attached. Security.

Thank You !

i may have missed it in videos past, but i just noticed your Philmont belt!

Bravo! What a beautiful machine, looking forward to this series. Gantry cranes (and tractors) let one dude move giant stuff safely, love it. For color, how about "Fire Engine Red?" You're gonna be so chuffed with a restored version of this awesome tool, show that baby off! If you had a giant oven and tons of fuel , Asphaltum and linseed oil I might suggest Japanning it and pin-striping it ;)

Keith, as I would assume you intend to use this Monarch lathe long term, I would be very tempted to take the DC motor to a motor rewinding specialist and at least have all the field windings tested for earth leakage and the commutator windings for equal inductance. At least you would then know it is good for the long run and if it isn't, it is in the correct place to have any problems cured. It would do no harm to put new bearings in at the same time.

Like so many other viewers I watch these because they motivate me to get off my butt and do something worthwhile. Good call on using your tractor I didn't know you had one. It's funny how sometimes we try to do things the hard way when we have better tools at our disposal we just don't think about them at the time.

I worked on a ship that generated ac and converted that to dc. I was told the conversion tripled the output dc power. Thanks for sharing.

Gonna be a great machine when done..

Most Monarch lathes are a machinery gray or the Monarch green color. But a shiny gloss black would be neat with that brass Monarch tag.

Enjoyed as I have a MG unit, tool suggestion get a small chain come-a-long in lieu of the second strap simple weight balance

so it's a machinery resto mod! good idea if you plan to put it to daily use!! great video and best wishes for the new year :)

I've been watching Four Ponds Shop He's done an amazing job restoring a couple Monarch lathes, might be worth a quick look Keith.

Hi Kieth, I had an EE that had a 7 1/2 hp AC motor inserted into the gutted frame of the old DC motor, replacing the removed armature and field magnets. It was direct coupled to the gear box. This allowed gear shifting and VFD. It worked well.

The war finish tells a great story. Consider it.

Nice machine, War Finish here in the UK (Great Britain), also didn't have any chromed handwheel or graduation dials. Looking forward to the build.

A Requiem for an Inspired Design I have a 1942 round dial 10EE. I understand your desire to modernize the DC generation for your Monarch. But watching you tear it out almost made me cry. The design is such a monument to the engineering methods of the time and the quality of manufacture as to merit almost religious awe. It is an example of the so-called Leonard-Morse drive that was common in elevators going back to the turn of the nineteenth century. On the plus side you are keeping the wonderful DC motor. And the trolly museum will likely do justice to the rest of the parts. I am not criticizing you. Monarch went to a different system as soon as they could. But still, it's a little like watching a Climax locomotive converted to a gasoline motor in order to reduce the maintenance. I enjoy your videos a lot. You are a good guy. BTW that bar that sits on brackets on the front of the lathe is for pushing stock that got stuck in the spindle behind the chuck out.

I think it would be great in battle ship grey also! Great video

if i were restoring it, i would definitely go with the original colour. still like the videos and work you do :)

Battle ship grey!

You need to come up with a Kieth Rucker Green and paint all your machines that color.

Nice tractor 🚜 👌

I didn't know we had a Streetcar Museum, but will have to check it out now! One of the lines is only a couple miles from me too

Let's get it 👍

16:42 - "Freedom's Forge", Herman. Bill Knudsen's first problem was a lack of machine tools to make the munitions for WWII.

Keith, you should get a hydraulic lift cart. That would've helped you alot pulling the motors

Hey Keith, I would go with the war finish, maybe that's just the nostalgic in me. I really enjoy your channel Keith

For the other machined surfaces that you want to protect clean it very good and apply a couple of layers of ductape. If you use quality ductape and press it down good it doesnt come loose with sandblasting. Best wishes in 2022 Keith.

Navy Gray #5 , best contrast for video.

This Lathe is going to look good Keith, i think it would look good in Black though

Mr. Rucker thanks for information I also have one like it very interested in the drive ya putting in it. I have an AC motor driven by a V.F.D no gear reduction would very much like to put my original motor with gear box works back in keep up the good work thanks Phil.

I was more worried about you running over the dog!

The January/February 2022 issue of the Home Shop Machinist is starting a series of articles on rebuilding a Momarch 10EE lathe.

What happened to part 2? God bless Keith! 🎚🙏🇲🇾🇲🇾🇲🇾

I have a MG 10ee and the "motor" on "top" is the exciter for the field coils in the DC drive motor. The AC driving motor is the unit where the junction box where you cut the wires is attached. So, you have an AC motor driving a generator and exciter, which creates DC power, driving a DC motor.

DC power was available for a very long time. When we built our commercial photo lab in 1982, there was a fair number of heavy duty DC outlets throughout our three floors and the basement, in this 14 floor building. The street level elevator for the basement had a huge DC motor. This power was still on when we sold the company in 2004. I use a Dremel with a cut off wheel to flatten the sides of those stupid drive screws when they’re stubborn. Then it’s easy to grab. If the tag is thin, it’s too easy to damage it otherwise. But, I’ve been suspenseful with a Stanley screwdriver type nail remover. Sharpening the ends let’s it get below the tag, and around the screw, giving support to the tag around the screw. In cases with small really thin tags, and some are made from thin zinc die castings or thin zinc rolled. For those, pins are used, and I take a blade from a box cutter and grind a very thin slot with the Dremel and cut off blade on the sharp edge. That can sneak below that tag and pry it out without damage. If I can, I replace these things with small thread cutting hardened stainless screws. Yes, not 100% authentic, but far better for future restorers and users.

The two little brackets in front held a rod with a head on it that is used to push material through the spindle. There were two brackets on the rear that held the drawbar. The war finish on mine was a stucco finish of a dark gray/blue gray color.

Battleship grey is my vote too!

I had no idea that's how those lathes worked electronically. Very interesting. I'd love to see it painted its original color.

Hi Keith. As an electronics person myself, I’d probably just replace the old (and probably worn) DC motor with a modern AC motor and a VFD, especially as you already have 3-phase via your rotary converter. Obviously, you would have to find a motor that 1) fits, and 2) has the right Horsepower for the application. 😊

Ah, now the article about rebuilding the drive of a 10ee in the current issue of The Home Shop Machinist makes a bunch more sense.

I wouldn’t give the old drive away until you’re sure you are satisfied with the new drive.

Ahh the old MG sets, remember a machine i used to run had one a little bigger than that one. It had a 300hp drive motor, we never turned it off unless we had to. Darn thing would dim the lights in the building starting up. I'd go with battleship gray, beats the "standard lavatory green" on the machine i ran.

The motor looking thing that's belted to the generator is actually the exciter, although at first glance it seems like it is the driver.

I have worked with both VFD and DC for the industry I worked in VFD worked circles around DC for hp loss in DC over lower speeds and economy VFD ramp up to speed and monentary stop less that one full rpm

Always nail biting stuff watching big stuff being lifted off centre! In a previous job, before the advent of cheap AC inverters, we used DC motors in production machinery. Always specified '4-quadrant' drives to make sure there were no torque fluctuations especially at low RPM.

Be careful of your electrical assumptions. That is not a Frankenstein drive energizing the DC spindle motor. That particular era EE has a Ward Leonard drive where field weakening was used on the motor in operation above base speed. For speeds below base speed the generator field was weakened to vary the spindle motor's armature voltage. The system might be old and antiquated but it was very sophisticated for its time capable of delivering constant HP stepless motor RPM over a wide range by adjusting a single control. My first suggestion is If you can get the original drive to work properly, move heaven and earth to make it happen. There is no escaping the engineering and calculations necessary to obtain a successful spindle drive conversion. "Torque" has a specific definition in mechanical engineering quantifable by universally accepted equations having power and RPM as variables. Here is a commonly used formula for calculating torque in Imperial units: Torque = 5252 x HP / RPM (Note the inverse relationship between torque and HP.) Using "torque" carelessly in a technical discussion - for example: "... loses torque at low RPM" without defining causes is confusing if not irresponsible and delays solution to the problem. Notice earlier I said: "constant HP." The spindle motor is rated at 3 HP base speed - which I think is about 850 RPM for your machine. 3 HP @ 850 RPM = 18.5 lb ft torque. 3 HP @ 3000 RPM = 5.2 ft lb torque. This RPM range is achieved via motor field weakening and the motor output is constant HP over the full range. Lower than base RPM of the spindle motor is obtained by weakening the generator field which reduces armature voltage delivered to the motor. The spindle motor features series windings in addition to the shunt windings and I think interpole windings - all designed to enhance motor torque and stability at low RPM. It's a very sophisticated and expensive motor. I believe the motor can deliver its full HP down to about 600 RPM (26.3 ft lb) but motor torque stays constant thereafter. I can't recall if that year EE was furnished with a "back gear." I strongly urge you to select the DC drive with care. If you install a general purpose DC drive you will be very unhappy with the result. The max spinde RPM will limited to the motor base speed and you will be plagued by spindle stalls working larger diameters at lower RPM. I strongly urge you to consult with a drives expert with experience in machine tool spindle drives. I know what I'm talking about. 30 years ago, I worked as a technician under an electrical engineer who was generous with his 40 years experience and brought me into his design considerations. We were called in to remedy two separate EE conversions both botched by uninformed drives component selection. The fixes that we applied worked well but were expensive in terms of purchased off the shelf equipment. But we got stepless spindle RPM at full power almost as good as the original drive but with the advantage of greater reliability. Given today's electrical equipment, my recommendation is to replace the 3 HP DC spindle motor with a 10 HP three phase induction motor and a general purpose VFD. This combination provides the low RPM torque and has the advantage of operation over the full RPM/torque range with a single control duplicating the stepless drive characteristics of the original Ward Leonard apparatus you desire to replace. A 10 HP 1750 induction motor develops an honest 3.3 HP @ 550 RPM. This is a far simpler remedy needing no integration of exotic components like variable current DC field supplies and control kludges using a stereo 2 deck balance pot. People may argue the EE will be damaged by 10 HP. The answer to that is limit yourself to 3 HP cuts. Others might cite the motor's starting surge. With a VFD, a low inertia load, and a moderate accel setting in the VFD's parameters, full load nameplate Amps are never exceeded: there is no starting surge .

I have a 1941 10ee. Very interested in this series. Mine is mostly complete except the compound is missing and a power button. Looking forward to seeing the electrical system you install

A friend had his 10EE hot tanked to get it clean. The inside is usually coated with an asphalt coating.