I converted our sanctuary sound to stereo just last week! We have a convex speaker configuration which did pose as few challenges, but after a bit of testing I've been able to create a stereo image across the entire room. My pastor, who does not have much of a musical ear, was surprised at how much clearer the mix was this past Sunday! I also referenced a few of your past videos to tune the system as well. Thanks for all you do! Your impact is greater than you know!
Convex in terms of a centered PA speaker splay? Ours is 3 speakers - center and two pointing to the left and right. What did you do in your config? I would love some better spacial spread instead of a 3-speaker PA with power-valleys making for aisles between seats. They told me that they got this setup because "we didn't have budget for something better."
@@johnmcvicker6728 we have 6 overhead speaker’s positioned to match the curvature of our stage. In the center we have 2 biamps pointing slightly left and slightly right with an attached fill speaker to each biamp. The last 2 speakers are on the far sides of the room. I tied the left front stack to the right side fill speaker and did the same with the right front and left fill. On the sides of the room the stereo image is flipped but it is stereo nevertheless. I hope this all makes sense!
@@Thereadysetletsgo That's how you can do it. I bet it sounds very good. The separation effect probably helps create a more natural sound rather than single point source effect.
@Dave Rat I feel like someone needs to create a stereo advocacy group lol. I've been an audio fan ever since I was a kid. My dad was into it. Then I was a synth player in an eighties rock band and did sound, and convinced that band to run in stereo. I also did a two year college degree in recording engineering. These days I sing, and we go out and do a lot of karaoke. The sound at these karaoke joints is almost always horrid, and mono. On the rare occasion, probably more by accident than by design, you get a guy running in stereo with an appropriate sub, and boom! It's truly a beautiful thing. In my experience in small clubs, the difference between folks running in mono vs stereo is stark and obvious. The stereo examples not only sound significantly better, you will notice that even in a loud environment, you can still talk to your people in a speaking voice (not shouting) and you can actually make out what the host is saying when he speaks through the system. I don't buy the notion that the impact of stereo disappears in a club environment. I have witnessed its beauty in live environments (my band included) and it really does make a significant difference. It's very difficult to get people to understand this. Most people just don't get it.
I agree with all that was said and appreciate the nod to the man, myth, legend Dave Rat. I agree that mono versus stereo is very room and audience seating dependent. I started mixing mono recently and it’s actually better for this particular space.
Whenever i’m mixing music on a stereo PA I’ve always done the slight pan move to separate 2 guitarists, or the horns, or generally anything that has a very similar frequency makeup. It has always helped me keep the instruments separated and not have one bury the other in the mix. Typically I go about +-25 degrees in either direction, not too much to make it that noticeable but enough to get that separation i need
Very interesting video AGAIN...!!! Fantastic work and really helpful informations... Thanks for that. For me... Stereo all the way. Like your example... when your mixing a Band and (lets say) you stand in front of the left speaker and you mute the right speaker... you will notice that (say +90%). Lot of things are stereo: Keyboard, Overheads, "Toms", Guitars (Helix, Kemper... you name it) with Reverb, Delay, Modulation and even "different Amps/Cabs", EFXs in general, Backingvocals, Orchestra. If you hear an Orchestra in real life (no mics) and you sit in the spot all the way to the wright... you will hear the Violins (left side). Panning Backings left and right is never by 100%... so maybe you loose 3 - 4 dB (on one side) but people have more level difference in Singing. So the balance is "close" enough. If I pan 2 Mono-Guitars hard left/right, than I use a copy on the opposite side with 10 - 25 ms Input-Delay, take the delayed sides on a separate DCA and use it for SoloBoost and/or width (with vocals I put it down, when I need more GuitarWall, I crank it). So I can hear all the Guitars everywhere in any situation. I've never mixed shows over 15.000 people... but in this stage I never had any problems with Stereosystems. But that's just me...
The second copied channel with delay trick works well and even for making a guitar "wide" on a broadcast mix, which I do. Sometime it doesn't sound great but sometimes makes for a better open center for vocals to come through nicely. I think it falls under the Haas effect as why it works.
@@johnmcvicker6728 right... sometimes it doesn't work. I also found out that between 20-25ms delay on one side has a bad sideeffekt. If I use it on Clean - oder Acoustic - Guitars, the low F-A (one of them and it depends on the ms) have some canceling out (like crazy timing/waves - phase issues). have a nice day everyone
Could the DaveRat method been used directly by inserting a 1ms delay effect on Main FOH LR Mix? This could solve both music and singers comb filtering, or am i out in left field?
im waitinf or my Mixer so I can experiment with Panning my tops speakers. Like, Pan my right speaker to the right and same for the left. so wach speaker can be panned to play their side from the mixer since since they already have L,R signals. I hope this makes sense! lol
Unfortunately it sounds like only acoustic treatment will help with your situation. If you’re on a budget and can’t afford an acoustician to work with you, build some wooden panels and stuff them with rockwool. There are many videos and links online that can give you some basic tips. Carpet on the floor (if it’s concrete currently) and padding on the seats (if they’re wood pews currently) may help immensely as well.
I would love to test this out. Unfortunately, we only send the left channel to the speakers. It would take lots of resources (time, talent, and treasure) to get to a point where we can start testing this technique. Being an Engineer by trade, I would love to try this out. Problem will be to convince everyone else that there is a benefit before we can actually get it done.
Do you know the “Input Controls” feature in Studio One? You can set the polarity and gain right there. This shows how: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-CQSx1wAAY-0.htmlm55s Thanks for discussing this stereo/mono topic, it is exactly what is bothering me in our church (type “reverberant cathedral”). I have the impression that using a stereo instead of mono PA would increase the intelligibility especially in this reverberant environment. I am trying to convince the church to change this PA to stereo.
If I remember correctly, Dave used to send the vocal to an extra linearray (right in the middle or beside the main hangs), to get around masking problems with music vs vocal signals. (Same situation with multiple monitor setups for more demanding (louder) situations)
Excellent observations as always. I stumbled into using stereo when I had an acoustic guitarist and a keyboard player consistently playing in the same range. Splitting them between 10 and 2 made a huge difference.
Great information and well presented, bro! We are BIG advocates of using a PA in "stereo" and panning as an additional mixing tool rather than it being about presenting a "stereo soundfield" to everyone in the room. One thing you point out that hasn't often been argued is that having a totally mono system with no panning and where you have two speakers spread out (not in a central cluster) is the variable comb filtering that occurs. If at least some of the sources are panned, this seems to minimize how noticeable that comb filtering might be...
Great video! A technique that has worked pretty well in our church is to apply a 'slap' delay to the lead vocal. I run about 25ms in one channel and 50ms in the other and mix that back over the vocal. This seems to help de-correlate the vocal while still giving a phantom center. It's a fairly live room so you don't hear the delay as an effect and it reduces those comb filtering nulls around the room. I love your 10 and 2 idea for moving instruments around without having them disappear for part of the audience. Thanks again!
Would you recommend running stereo for small to medium, rectangular sized room where the PA is set up on the shorter wall? Just a single sub and main on each side of the room. We just started running stereo for our IEM's and broadcast mix. Haven't really tried for live sound yet!
Interesting. I tend to use a Haas effect on vocals, sometimes. It helps if you are layering and repitching one of channels. Just adding a subtle few db’s will make the vocals pop really well. The last step than is always added, would be multi-band compression. Just -2-3db, rarely -6db, is sidechained/ducked from the lead vocals to the entire mix. Normally around 1.2k-1.5kHz to 5.5k-6.2kHz. Doing that in a live environment is trickier.
Hey, James , trick behind this method is to send different outputs to the PA system. I run five speakers in our church and I’m going to separate them because the left and the right are linked at the moment. Once I do that my vocals will be coming out from the two center speakers left and right and I’m gonna be panning my vocals,to the center speakers my instruments will be coming out from the two outer speakers left and right. I also have a mono speaker in the center. I don’t know what I’m going to do with it maybe I’ll get my main vocal channel coming out through there or whatever I want to do with it, one thing is for sure. I know this will eliminate a lot of comb filtering. I saw it on smaart last time I analyze the system. Panting works only if you are using two speakers then you can send whatever you want to each side. Linking pa speakers is not such a good idea. Good video thanks
Would it be ideal to put a convex horizontal four-way speaker array on the ceiling in the center of a room (which is roughly the size of a basketball court, but a touch larger), angled down to point midway back from the stage with a configuration of left, right, left, right for a stereo mix? That means the left side of the room would have a left/right stereo mix, the right side of the room would have a left/right stereo mix, and the center of the room would have a right/left stereo mix; the right and left would be switched because of the configuration. Stage is on the long side of the room, and the stage is an additional 20-25’deep.
Great insights. Just my thought, a four piece band like us, purple fusion wouldn't need so much space as a worship band would. Infact we would sound much tighter and fuller if we go mono. Really love your videos😇🙏
I'd love to know how you wire your speakers. We only have 2 speakers, left and right. But when we eventually get our own space I'd love to know how you wire/route your speakers as left, right, center(?), and subs as well. I was a bit thrown off when you said the 2 on the left are panned left and right as well
Dont test it without audince. It will be different if theres alot of pople, they absorb sound so it doesnt travel to another side. For me the right design of speaker placements L-R......C........L-R then delay them a littlebit.
Weird there is comb filtering when gtr is centered between your LR setup. Mainly because they are different speakers with eq on at least one of them to match them. Guess you did a great job matching them
In your description of pan controls you make it sound like its a gain control in that you are increasing or boosting the gain to make it louder on one side over the other. All the pan controls I've seen work like volume controls. Is that not always the case? Do some pan controls work using gain, instead of attenuating volume?
hello sir,I have used a ts cable from the guitar to the multieffect, from the multieffect to the mixer I use a ts cable and from the mixer to the active speaker I use an xlr cable.. in your opinion, is the resulting sound stereo or mono?
It's not stereo unless there are two distinct signals that have variation, so the type of cable on the input side is rarely stereo unless there are 2 jacks
Hello James, kindly help me out, I have wireless mic systems,there is one mic that's pickup & be heard in another separate mic antenna, what could be the issue
James, I have a totally unrelated question, which you may have covered in previous videos. What are your suggestions for mixing backing tracks? I’ve usually seen the tracks controlled on stage by one of the band members using either a midi device, laptop or iPad. In this situation, how does the sound engineer control the tracks’ mix for the PA. Do they send each track separately to the board. I have a X32 so I don’t a lot extra channels for backing tracks. At my church, I control the tracks using an iPad directly plugged into the soundboard via L/R aux. Downside is that the music leader doesn’t have control over starting and stopping of songs, and can’t easily adjust tempo, key, etc. But I have control over the tracks mix on the iPad. Be good if could provide some best practices and options for setting up backing tracks. Plus, tips on how to mix them so they sound good with the band and vocals.
@@jasonengle6835 Gotcha. Well I know Prime has the track rig which is an 8 channel output interface that you can send individual channels from your tracks to your FOH that way they can mix them for the house. I'm not familiar with multitracks but I would guess they'll have something similar. Prime also has a Bluetooth foot controller called looptimus which can control start, stop, next song, etc. You can check them out on the loopcommunity website under products.
@@KeyofGtutorials Thank you for the suggestion. I am familiar with those products and we are looking into them. They send midi cues, so pedals controls will work with backing tracks app that have midi I/o. This is something I’d like to see James cover in one of his videos.
After some time contemplating this technique, it seems to me that just adding a delay may not decorrelate the signals enough for some installations. Lets say you delay the left channel by 1ms. While it is true that when you stand equal distant from both speakers, the interference you heard when it was not delayed would indeed be removed. Unfortunately, if you step 1ft closer to the left speaker, you will again get the interference pattern where everything is perfectly correlated and cancels itself out again. You can push this line all the way to the left or right be delaying the channel more, but if your speakers are 20 feet apart, you will need to delay 20ms. This is a worst case scenario because it does not take into account the coverage cone of the speakers. I think you can probably get away with a 5ms delay depending on how narrow the main lobe of the speakers are. maybe one of those 3d sound mapping programs can provide the minimum delay for your facility. Quick google search found this: windowsreport.com/speaker-simulation-software/
@@robnilsen Definitely! Anything to change how well the two paths correlate will improve the room coverage more than a fixed delay (IMHO). Adding in a Chorus effect that changes the pitch, tone, or even de-tuning would be the first things I will eventually try if I get a chance. I'm still hoping that some audio engineer will chime in on my comment to shoot holes in my theory.
