I have not watched one of your videos in some months. wow. you look so much more comfortable in your own skin, so much happier, so much more confident. good job you.
As Greek Orthodox I understand why people leave these silly churches there’s not history no tradition no complex thinking at all we as Orthodox have history and science and tradition read Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Polycarp, Ignatius, Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus your church’s never even talked about history
I want you to do everything you can to protect your mental health. If I'm being honest, it looks like it's working. You seem happy, confident and at peace more than I've ever seen you. That being said, you are an amazing encouragement to me and you have always made me feel like I had a friend out there going through some of the same things as me. To find out today that you lost your best friend just blew me away. It happened to me too and it was literally the most painful thing I have ever experienced. What made it worse was that NO ONE I interact with had any clue how bad it was or how much pain I was in. I love your videos and I love that you seem to be coming out on the other side of things.
I agree. As much as I love seeing videos from people, I would rather them just be healthy and happy! If only one of those things can happen then I choose their well being over my own entertainment
Exvangelical now a progressive Christian, on my journey I learned that for the first 600 years of Christianity there were six schools of thought on the afterlife . 4 of them were different variations of universal reconciliation ( everyone is reconciled to god) , one was annihilation (a person ceases to exsist), and lastly the minority view at the time of eternal torment. I started rejecting hell too as my first step in my deconstruction and then much later I learned how ancient and how prevalent universal reconciliation once was. I'm so angry that all of this got buried and that christians have been messing with people for centuries scaring them as hell. The threat of hell is simply used to keep people in line.
i’m currently deconstructing and tbh i haven’t even considered the topic of hell before coming across this video. do you happen to have any resources you’d like to share?
The Desert Fathers were early monastics living in the Egyptian desert; although they did not write as much, their influence was also great. Among them are Ss. Anthony the Great and Pachomius the Great. A great number of their usually short sayings is collected in the Apophthegmata Patrum. A small number of other Fathers wrote in other languages: Ephrem the Syrian, for example, wrote in Syriac, but his works were widely translated into Latin and Greek.
I had similar thoughts watching their video. There was one point when Bethy started to cry that my heart fully broke because I fully imagined that the was thinking of exactly this, the God she loves sending the man she loves to hell. That is so terrifying and painful.
I'm wondering what she thinks heaven is, because I do not think I could exist happily in heaven if my life partner (or anyone I cared about) was burning away in hell. But...heaven makes absolutely no sense to me however anyone describes it, while hell is simple - everyone who doesn't do exactly what awful hateful god of the bible god wants goes there.
@@ziploc2000 it's hard for me to imagine. I grew up in that fundie evangelical sphere and I remember as a child feeling like heaven did not sound that great. Like the naturey aspects like the "sea of glass" and stuff I imagined sounded nice, but gold streets and worshipping god all the time sounded weird and not like a place I'd want to spend eternity in. Just juxtaposed with eternal torture I figured that was the place I'd rather be.
I think it’s great to celebrate steps toward progress, as you state. I agree it’s encouraging and a great example to see Bethany’s interactions with Dav as they are in this challenging space. However, Bethany still expressed some pretty staunch homophobia in the Paul and Morgan video. It makes me uneasy to see Zelph on the Shelf making statements like “we are fully in love you two as a couple” (my paraphrase) in the comments of the Dav Deconstruction video, and making apparent plans to visit them in Texas to collab (heavily implied on a recent community post). I have enjoyed seeing so much support from the Ex-Fundie/Snark community! Including your video here. I just wonder if you have thoughts about Zelph on the Shelf being so forward with their support when we know Bethany to still be putting forth hateful views.
I think this is valid criticism. I also I feel like the expression "you two as a couple" alone doesn't necessarily include the implication "...and you both as separate people". In other words, expressing admiration of a couple's interpersonal relationship isn't an endorsement of their views. But I'm personally not sure how ZotS intended it. The excitement regarding Dav's deconstruction seems to have left them and a lot of other commentators struggling to express clearly as to what part of B&D:s behaviour is endorsed and what isn't. Anyway, I think it is both possible and wise to take inspiration from how Bethany and Dav treat each other in this crisis of theirs AND remain critical of how whatever hateful beliefs they still uphold.
It could be a good experience for Bethany to be visited by people so clearly different from herself. I'm guessing she has had very few actual real-life interactions with the LGBTQ+ community. It could be eye-opening for her, especially seeing how accepting I predict her husband will be. It doesn't seem possible that her husband could be going through such huge changes in beliefs and thoughts without it having any effect at all on Bethany's beliefs. Maybe ZoTS sees Bethany's willingness to accept her husband for who he is to be a sign that she could perhaps also accept others for who they are.
I think that if anyone could help impart better views in Bethany, it would be Zelph. They have always been really great about nuance and understanding, while still looking at things critically. They have been homophobic zealots, so they understand how carefully and slowly you have to approach people with those views. Yeah, they may be outwardly fully fangirling, but I am choosing to trust them in the long run.
As someone who grew up Gothard/IBLP adjacent like Bethy did, it took me a long time to unlearn the homophobia that had been assigned to me by my religious subculture. I adopted someone else's beliefs when I was young. I never even gave serious thoughts to what I believed until I started interacting with people of different worldviews than mine online. I'm old enough that I didn't have consistent internet access until I was well into adulthood. That exposure to the non-fundy world, including LGBTQIA+ people is what eventually led to changing my views and to me being an ally. There's a reason the leadership tried so hard to scare us into not being on the internet. But even then, it took time. The best thing that happened to me was what really decent non-fundamentalist humans were willing to be kind and give me space to grow. My religious subculture said that anyone outside our little group would hate me, and that was simply not my experience with this group I was part of. In fact, non Christians I knew online were getting attacked by Christians far more than we modern US Christians had ever experienced "persecution" by the "world." It may take Bethy longer to work through this issue though because she's received so much negative feedback online that she views as hate. The cultic subculture tells you to go say hateful things in a public space, not so that you'll convert people (which is the stated reason) but so that the non Christians will reject you and drive you back to the cult for comfort and reinforcement of the belief that no one outside the group will ever accept you (this is the real reason). So if we want Bethy to move away from her cultic views, she'll have to find a group that's not part of the cult that doesn't treat her like the cult said they would. That's the spell that (in my observation) breaks the curse of the cult's death grip. As long as people treat her terribly (even if it's justified because she's being terrible), it will drive her back to the belief that everyone hates her because she's standing up for God. I'm guessing Zelph on the Shelf understands this and is hoping to show her kindness in a help her move away from the cult kind of way.
@@beyondallmeasureThank you for this thoughtful response. I agree that the interactions you mention are important and empathy is vital, but I think that it can happen privately/offline and prominent creators don’t have to immediately jump on a very visible collab.
I've enjoyed your perspective and commented on some of your videos a while back but this was one of the most relatable....even as a cis white male ogre. I'm a pretty open-minded secular humanist atheist and my wife is a recently born-again hardcore evangelical. The fact that my wife believes I will burn in hell and seems rather indifferent has genuinely been the hardest thing to live with. For me, it feels like a slow and excruciating death of our marriage as she seems to be progressing through this situation as if she's already mourned my death and now just has to live with me as an inconvenience. It's a crushing heartbreak every day of my life. I genuinely hope his deconstruction doesn't leave him in the same situation I live with - it's a miserable existence.
As much as I despise the things Bethany stands for, I do have some compassion for her (presumably) believing that the person she loves most in the world will end up in hell. It must be really tough to hold that belief. I can't feel too sorry for her given the homophobia and misogyny she pushes, but just a little bit.
I’m also wondering how this journey will pan out for Bethy and Dav in the long run! Getting past the hell doctrine was also the final stop on my journey past the bounds of Christianity, so it should be interesting to see how this develops. I feel like the only things that can happen are that A) they split (I’m personally betting on this one, call me a cynic), B) they both fully deconstruct, or C) they stay together in a mixed faith relationship.
You have come so far Elly. Thank you for sharing with us through these times. Your stories help me comb through some difficult history as a deconstructed Catholic
Just joining the voices saying we are glad you are prioritizing your health and happiness. Your smile brings literally thousands of people joy because you represent the kind of kindness and humility and empathy a lot of us aspire to. I wish you so much joy, from the bottom of my heart.
I don’t believe in hell anymore but when I did, it was always based on actions and not belief. Nobody ever told me you could go to hell for not believing in God, just that you could go to hell for doing really terrible things. Murder, child abuse, genocide, warmongering, torturing puppies, that kind of thing. So the idea of this vain god that will send you to hell for not worshiping him (and of course it’s always a “him” with fundies!) sounds so ridiculous I can’t imagine anyone believing it. Whole churches are out there accusing God of the most petty, vain, jealous nonsense and I can’t believe they don’t realize how blasphemous they sound! They’re literally just insulting the god they claim to worship!
I really admire your gentleness and empathy here, even when (as genderqueer people) these individuals would never give that gentleness to us. I hope their new understanding brings them to a place where they can truly recognize the harm they and people like them intend to do or already are doing and the deadly rhetoric they espouse at every level, from the interpersonal to the international
I had a best friend breakup 8 years ago and I wish I had the experience you did. I was the one who was dumped. It was kind of ugly because I didn’t see it coming and it also happened while I was going through a traumatic situation, adding some stink to it. I now struggle with female friendships because of it.
I'm curious what your emotions about being close with someone who thinks you're going to hell are - I see where you're coming from on an abstract sense but I think my experience is different and I can't pin down where. Myself personally.. I am still very close and happy with my relationship with my mother and father, who are both still christian. My mother has always been very private about her faith so I don't know what she believes, and my dad and I don't talk about it, but I'm fairly certain he thinks I may go to hell for being an atheist, and it only bothers me a little bit.. the main thing that bothers me is that I worry he is worrying about me, and I don't want him to bear that burden of worry. I think I would be more bothered if it was something he brought up to me, but since he's learned to respect my boundaries around religious conversations, it's not really an aspect of our relationship that I think about much.
The hell thing never bothered me that much. I was Catholic so its different but the basics are the same. Once i stopped believing in hell i didn't really care if people thought i would end up there. I think it was more of an issue for the people who cared about me. Catholics do have an advantage as they believe in faith and works. So some of them can believe atheists get into heaven if there a good person.
Growing up conservative Lutheran was much different than fundie, but there are many similar beliefs about hell, etc. What always angers me is the obsession with this, and legalism vs. what Christ taught us to do(the Sermon on the Mount being a prime example!) If Christians spent even as much time actually loving their neighbor as they do condemning them, what wonderful thing that would be!!!
I also grew up conservative lutheran (LCMS), and though there's definitely aspects of fundies and evangelicals that differ, I still definitely find fundie videos helpful in processing what hurt me about my christian upbringing
I have been a follower for a while and respect you very much, so I want to ask you this: if it was the 1940's during the Jewish Holcaust would you be making content about anything other than that? I will just leave you with a quote from an email Rachel Corrie sent her mom before she was killed in 2003 "This has to stop. I think it is a good idea for us all to drop everything and devote our lives to making this stop. I don’t think it’s an extremist thing to do anymore." Please consider what this means for you. Sending love ❤✊🏻🇵🇸
I don’t know enough about Bethany and Dav’s to know how to view it but I wonder if Bethany in some way believes this is just another test from god and that Dav will come back to believing the way she does. Even though she’s definitely made progress I’m not fully convinced they will make it work in the long run if Dav continues down this path.
4:02 6 years on and I'm still not over the loss of my best friend due to my deconstruction/deconversion... It hurts so bad. I miss her so much. It's caused me to hate the religion I came out of. (Fundie christianity)
I'm totally unfamilliar with these people but, 1 Corinthians 7 talks about this, have they talked about it yet? "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. ..."
It's ironic that you are talking about going to the Christian hell in the afterlife because it appears leaving the Christian faith has pulled you out of the Christian hell you were already in; in the here and now. You seem much happier and healthier compared to your first video.
you are looking fire! whatever self-love journey you are on, it looks like it is working! I hope your inside is looking as good as your outside lol! I know you've been through a lot. I hope things are well.
It was nice to hear the rest of your thoughts! I’m glad you took my suggestion to watch the original video (to get full context), and the Zelph reactions (for some joy). You’re doing great out on that walk! If you ever want to dig into hell related stuff, Genetically Modified Skeptic has a video where he talks about how much he feared hell, then he visits the spot that might have been the place referenced in the Bible. It’s really interesting and you can tell how healing it was for him!
I know this is probably normal in America and totally fine but watching you walk down the actual street where cars drive was stressing me out so much lol I had to just listen without looking. More to the topic, I totally relate to not be able to stay friends with someone who believes I am going to hell, and especially not only believes that it will happen, but even worships the God who will supposedly send me there. That's a moral conflict I can't reconcile.
In the previous Fundie Friday video about Girl Defined, they told that Beth and Dav had started going to Lutheran church. I'm Finnish and Lutheral church is easily the largest (like 80% of all people belonging to a faith) religion in Finland and also the official one. I was technically raised in it (though my family was very secular always). I was thought by a priest that Lutherans don't believe in hell. That people are saved from hell because of God's mercy, and not through their own actions or thoughts. Everyone, even people who believe in different faiths or no faith at all, will be saved, because Jesus sacrificed himself to save the whole humanity. I know this is not how all Lutherans even in Finland see this, and I'm not even 100% sure if it's the official belief of the Finnish church, but it taught to me by a priest (she was also theology teacher in middle and high school). I'm sure that Lutheran churches around the world have some different interpretations of hell and deliverance, I think some of them do believe you need to have faith in god to be saved. But generally I my understanding is that Lutherans have a softer view of hell, even if they don't believe that literally the whole humanity was saved, like many Finnish Lutherans do. Also at least the Finnish Lutheran church is pretty progressive. We've had women as priests for a long time now and the church allows same sex wedding ceremonies. I did hear from a Lutheran in US that the church there too is at least relatively progressive.
This is very interesting. I have a friend of about 8 years who I'm almost certain believes I'm going to hell, and it's never really bothered me. But I completely understand why it would bother someoene else
You look so good lately! Yes, you're a physically attractive woman, but there's an inner beauty this is realy showing on the outside, too. It's in your overall countenance (the real type, not the keep sweet type with a perm) and visage. I'm so happy for you - happy on your behalf and happy for your making the videos and sharing so frankly. Remarkable.
The "eternal separation from god" thing isn't even about punishment for me... it's that god has no choice but to push me far away because what I am is toxic. The reason for the separation isn't because god wants to punish me, it's because he literally can't stand me, and that supposedly breaks his heart. That's what caused wedges/ ended friendships for me. They said they didn't think I was going to burn in a lake of fire, just be eternally separated from god... it surprised me that it felt worse, even though I fully knew that's what they would say... because it's what I would have said in the past. I am late to Dav's Deconstruction Cinematic Universe, but I have been watching all the videos and catching up, and can not wait to see what happens next (their new friendship with Zelph on the Shelf is everything). Definitely curious how it affects Girl (Un)Defined.
Bethany and Dave's Relationship will fall apart. As Much as they love each other, I think Bethany is too Fundy to go along with Dave's progress for long. Her family will pull her back into their faith. Mark my word....it won't be long and it will all fall apart.
My wife is still a fundamentalist Christian, and I think that at least currently she believes that God will eventually bring me back to faith and that will solve the problem. While it absolutely has been a rough journey, personally I have had the realization that since what I truly want is to be loved for who I am without being required to change or fake my beliefs, that kind of love is what I will model for her. It is still sad for me that she is upset and worried about me going to hell. But I absolutely still love her as she is, and will continue to whether or not her views on hell ever change. And I will not try to change that myself if she does not want me to tell her why I don't think it is a correct or necessary belief. While I absolutely hope she eventually finds her way to a peace that doesn't depend on hoping and assuming I will eventually change my mind, as long as she can also keep loving me for who I actually am right now, I will love her as she is as well without requiring her to change herself for me to be happy. I think this is influenced by the fact that she is not the type of person to try to yell at someone about how they are going to hell, or berate gay or trans people for being who they are, or make someone feel bad for believing differently. She just truly believes that what the church teaches is the absolute truth from God and she has to have faith and believe it, because to question any of it is to question God. Even though I think there are parts of it she may not be happy with. If she was actively displaying hate and anger towards me and others with different beliefs or different orientations, I think that would affect my assessment of her character a lot more. But with her beliefs, I know she can't choose what she believes is true any more than I can, and it is how she chooses to act given what she currently believes that is important to me.
Hi, really interesting reflections that you gave. I think the teachings of He'll can be the reason why some Christians who are questioning their faith can struggle to live fully in their autonomy. It's like, what if Hell is real. It then is a reminder of the coercive aspect of teaching, if people fear the wrath of Hell then they won't walk away from their faith. Deconstruction can indeed be so complex, however there can true healing and release along the way. Thanks for posting another video and hope you will find understanding and supportive friends as you continue to move forward ❤
Purgatory is a thing. Most people are probably destined for that, by none of us can know God's will for anyone else, so it seems very weird to just run around telling anyone they're going to hell.
Thanks for sharing! You were the first deconstruction RU-vidr that I watched and I was bummed you didn’t post as often. But I found some other cool RU-vidrs in the process. Genetically Modified Skeptic is my favorite, do you have a favorite?
When I was a Christian, I had a really hard time believing that anyone who did not believe in Christianity would go to hell. I remember having a discussion with my childhood best friend about it when I was deconstructing a little bit about that view. We sense grew a lot further apart for other reasons not religious and I still wonder if she still holds the same views today. she doesn’t know I’m not religious anymore and I don’t think it would be that big of a problem with her since we’re not too close but it’s still something I think about. I like the view that we only have one life and we should make our life the best we can and not just focus on an afterlife.
I wonder how much of Bethany's understanding and patience is genuine. Idk why but I can't shake the feeling that it is ultimately self serving , meaning if their relationship sours she can have video evidence of how hard she tried, and how submissive she was to his wishes... I am just having a hard time buying that for years she preached against this stuff and now she's totally ok with it and even loves him anyway and isn't bitter or even disgusted by his lack of faith. Faith is her entire brand, life and income. And if she truly believes what she and her sister preach, she should be incredibly distressed at the thought of him not going to heaven, being rejected by the church they attend, national audiences, etc. Does Bethany have the capacity to love Dav through this journey if he stopped loving her ? Or can she only love the atheist she's married to ? (Edited for clarity and many typos)
You look happier, and I love that you shared the whole vibe/ scenery of that walk with us. I've been watching multiple reactions of Bethany & Dav's video, and I have to say it's been so refreshing for our whole big atheist/ deconstruction community to share the experience of this hopeful, loving, respectful, honest interaction. I'm just absolutely thrilled about it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
All that hell, devil, burning in fire and brimstone stuff was all added long after Christianity began. The pagan god Pan was the initial devil template.
I can completely understand your reason for parting ways with your friend. I was never religious, but my best friend was. I remember asking her about hell when I was about 15/16, and I remember her saying she thought I would go to hell when I die. I remember it bothering me a little, but I also never had the baggage of growing up believing in hell. I asked her about it recently (she is no longer religious) and she was a little embarrassed to think she ever told me that. She also said that it was something she struggled to reconcile with when she was younger, knowing that her best friend and other friends would go to hell, when she considered us to be good people. All this to say, I’m glad I stuck with her. She is an amazing friend and one of the few people who truly understands me, and her no longer being religious removed some of the barriers that were originally there in the friendship. However, I can imagine it being tricky to find that someone who once knew you well and you had so much common ground with slowly become less and less understanding of you as you changed and broke away from your original beliefs. It was great to hear your thoughts about this Elly! You seem to be doing well :)
I suppose it would vary between relationships. I deconstructed so I'm a theist but no longer a Christian. My husband thinks people like me are on their way to hell, but then again what did I expect. Its his faith. I respect what he believes and it's not a deal breaker for me. Another issue might be though. 🤷🏿♀️
I am also a former fundie. Somehow, growing up, I could never really connect with the idea of hell. When sermons or Sunday school lessons went that direction, part of me would mentally check out. Same for end time prophecies. Even as a little kid it was like I had a mental shield up about that stuff. My belief in hell was one of the first things I deconstructed, and it was an easy piece to dissect and discard because I think I was eager to find a reason to let go of it. And I think that lack of willingness to fully engage with the idea when I was still in has made it a lot easier now to shrug off the fact that my believing loved ones probably think that’s my ultimate destination. And I say probably because no way am I going to ask them what they think. I don’t want to invite them thinking so specifically about the topic because I worry that doing so would be taken as an invitation/provocation to more targeted attempts to pull me back in. All that to say that I think which points are going to be the really hard ones to navigate in an “unequally yoked” relationship really depends on what those individuals hold most dear. If hellfire fills Bethy’s stress dreams, and/or if Dav fretted about hell as a kid, then it will almost certainly be a hard one for them to navigate now. But if they have both taken a more arms’ length approach to hell, something else will probably be the hardest thing to sort out between them. But *something* will be the spot that rubs. For their sake, I hope they handle whatever that is with kindness and grace.
It is harder to deconstruct Human Rights, tho, which are way more toxic than religion. Think about it: there is ZERO evidence humans have any more value than an amoeba, and we are told to "treat others as equals" or some unscientific bullshit, pay taxes for people who hate us, support stupid wars, etc. Clearly we all are not equal, some people are way worse or way better than us. Some people even have negative value... such as criminals. Human Rights are very toxic belief system that invaded our laws, social norms and goes against any kind of logic. NOTHING in nature is equal or valuable or "deserves" shit, but all is relative, even human 'value' and 'dignity'.
@@mariaquiet6211 I don't have naturalistic beliefs, but see the cognitive dissonance here: We have no value and we are just animals, but somehow we have to implement equality and be fair? WHY?
I'm not in the fundie/ex-fundie/deconstruction sphere (by choice, cause it's often a trigger for me) but I just wanted to add that I think it's kind of admirable that they (Bethany/Dav) are willing to discuss this with their followers and not hide it from them.
I was absolutely stunned. Mostly bc the only time I ever heard about Bethany was bc of that show she shares with her sister and it was portrayed as them being very judgemental..I am fascinated that Bethany is accepting what's going on. I'm a 48 y.o woman that went through deconstructing on my own and the relationship in my life at the time was with a (sort of closet) atheist (as in he never brought up the subject but when I did, he'd counteract with a few verses but wouldn't say he wasn't a believer). So, my experience wasn't at all the same. On the one hand I think he's surrounded by believers and doesn't really have a chance BUT on the other, he's got a plethora of resources and testimonials via the Internet. Good luck and I have no idea where Bethany will end on this but I've heard of other couples where the husband went all the way but the wife still clings on but is much more' liberal' about it.
Edit: Your vibe in this video is amazing and your smile is beaming through the camera. Edit end. I find it fascinating how Hell changes with age. From being this eternal tortures burn put when we were kids to a more lenient place as we get older and more realistic of who we are and what we do as humans of a certain age. 😅😂😅
Your feelings around maintaining friendships with people who think you’re literally going to burn in the underworld 5ever is something I’ve struggled with my entire life. I never could wrap my brain around it.
Think of God like a judge. Jesus is your defense attorney. 2 Corinthians 5:10 Sin must be paid for. Anology: Most people agree that at some point, a debt must be paid or forgiven. God's gift is, He lets the individual decide to let Jesus pay or you pay. The wage of any sin is death. If one feels that they feel Jesus/God is not being fair: This world will end. If for no other reason because the Sun will destroy it. God makes 2 new places. One of those people will be with him. Other one people will not be with him. Where do u want to be? Or, are you saying you would still rather have a place that includes bad/nonbelievers and believers?
