Mozart’s Most Motivically Masterful Minuet: K. 464 String Quartet in A, Mvt. 2 

Facts!

ADONIS

@@hunterac45 Cool to see Hamza connaisseurs in the classical music world.

Gigachads have classical music RU-vid channels?? Tell that to the middle-school version of me!

Yes! The variation movement of K. 563 is sooo exquisite!!

I look forward to that as well. The first minuet is an absolute gem!

I don't find Rosen really trustworthy due to his limited view of the period (tries to explain every phenomenon of the period based on 3 composers only; Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven), which can be understandable for his time, because of the lack of revival of other composers' music.

@@pdqbach4552 yeah I've noticed that as well in what I've been reading so far, but I do like his take on sonata form, as a manifestation of the style of the time, rather than a set-in-stone schema that is commonly taught today, although I feel both interpretations have pros and cons

Tovey was wrong about many things about the Classical period, and so was Rosen. Their "subjective views" and "speculations" about the history should be taken with a grain of salt. Tovey said of Beethoven's Missa solemnis: "There is no earlier choral writing that comes so near to recovering some of the lost secrets of the style of Palestrina." But look at "Missa in Dominica Palmarum" (1794) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oYaMfYPvd7I.html I don't know how your talk of Haydn Op.20 is related to Mozart K.464 in any way, but there's no evidence Joseph Haydn invented the "stuff" and all other composers followed. Tovey and Rosen could be wrong cause they didn't know much else outside of Haydn and Mozart, due to the lack of revival. Look at Franz Ignaz von Beecke's string quartets. (such as the one in C major). If you have a copy of Charles Rosen's , have a look at page 281, where he discusses Mozart's K.174 quintet; "The immediate model for this work is not at all Michael Haydn, as has been thought, much less Boccherini, but ..." In this manner, he goes onto discuss Mozart's other quintets, how they were homage to Joseph Haydn. The closeness of chromatic language and stuff Mozart has with Michael, -Rosen does not mention. MH287: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qIPffGnkaKU.html (compare with K.515/i) MH284: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ppTToo8lrMQ.html (compare with K.465/i) Each of Michael Haydn's quintets (MH187, MH189, MH367, MH411, MH412) predates Mozart's by several months ~ 1 year (MH367, the slow movement of which resembles that of K.465, predates it by months), but Rosen does not mention this either. The relationship between the fugal final movements of MH287 and K.387 (both of which begin on 4-note patterns) the slow variation movements of both composers' A major quartets, MH299 and K.464, (+ a bunch of other things) -he does not mention. Why? It's because Rosen did NOT know the stuff. This Michael Haydn quintet composed in 1773 (MH189) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-9gDxnpn5vb4.html was far more important to Mozart than anything in Joseph Haydn terms of contrapuntal dissonance.

By "Tovey and Rosen could be wrong cause they didn't know much else outside of Haydn and Mozart, due to the lack of revival." I mean, the revival of Classical era music (especially music by composers other than Haydn and Mozart) was minimal in their time, how could they have known and listened to everything? They didn't, and their views were obviously limited because of that. I'm saying critics and academics of the past aren't authorities to be relied on unquestioningly. It is now known that Bruckner admired the liturgical music of Franz Joseph Aumann (1729~1797), studied the counterpoint and colored harmony of Aumann's music, but how much of it has been recorded? What do we know? Not much, even today.

@@pdqbach4552 do you have any sources you could share regarding Aumann & his influence on Bruckner? I don't think anyone is suggesting Rosen is infallible. Perhaps the (probably justifiable) reverence in which he is held is itself testimony to the lack of decent insightful (if inevitably imperfect) scholarship, echoing the exact situation that scholars of his era faced with respect to the wider range of sources & influences you mention. In the land of the blind ... Rosen was recommended to me by a professional composer, & remains, along with Schoenberg's Harmony text, one of the great revelations of my potted & ham-fisted attempts at providing myself with a decent musical education. "Thank God for the internet" essentially ... & for channels & videos such as this one ... & for your comments in turn.

Indeed. Mozart also used the pink motif in the Andante of that same symphony. Actually, the first theme could be thought of as an elaboration of this pink motif, and one of those extraordinary examples of hiding in plain sight, like Mr Atkinson points out in the latest Brahms video.

The first motif also has the same melodic contour as the final from Symphony 41

Yes, I started a video on this a few years ago, but I haven't had a chance to finish it yet!

Hoffmann is such a strange composer with such a weird output. During my Bachelor's program, I worked as an aid for a professor who was an expert on Hoffmann's music esthetics. A protestant Prussian with a love for latin church music and an absolute love for counterpoint which sometimes bears really crooked-sounding results, the symphony is a great example for this, his piano trio and solo sonatas also have some really bizarre passages.

Definitely someday! The C major String Quintet has been on my list for a long time.

I joked in one of my old videos that "all of Bach" is on my list.

@@Richard.Atkinson Ayo! I love your videos man, keep it up!

www.proquest.com/docview/1494106084

btw magnificent use of alliteration in the title haha!

I'll make It easy for you. Mozart is best because of his memory. Fuck beethoven. Even know his last name meets the pattern of 3 narrative. Nobody meets mozart. Not even bach

I’ve actually made that same comparison with 132 in the past, but I completely forgot about it for this video!

More Mahler is coming soon. I'll probably do some Chopin at some point, but we'll see about the ones you mentioned.

...at an appellation!

I have not read that last article, but I was already planning to discuss this (the finale of K. 464 uses motifs from the third movement, etc.) in the videos about the later movements.

Someone else already mentioned this in an earlier comment, and yes, I'm very annoyed I didn't make that comparison in this video.

Most sources list Symphony 47 being composed in 1772 and the sonata being composed in 1773 and published in 1774. But that doesn't tell you which came first in his mind.

This part: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5loanKuuYq4.html

I love Tanyeyev too, thanks for this list of music, I haven't yet heard all of those pieces. Have you heard his piano trio? I love that one as well. And the Oresteia is sooooo good!

At the Reading of a Psalm (Taneyev's final composition) is easily up there along with Bach's greatest choral music. And it includes the most Earth-shattering fugue I know of in the first movement. You can listen and follow the score here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-CIYP1xzVF64.html Great video as always!

@@sanderspoelstra8961 Yeah the piano trio is a wonderful piece. I should really listen to it more.

@@lauratabe1945 I agree completely. At the Reading of a Psalm is one of my favourite choral pieces ever made, along with the 1st cantata and even the 12 choruses.

@@Godzilla-xt4nd It's great to know more people are listening to Taneyev and even reading his works.

the second movement!

Hard to choose between them. The last ten are all masterpieces.

@@thomasskoronski8625 They certainly are! I’ve always liked 575 the least of the ten, but even 575 is superb.

@@Richard.Atkinson I listened to K 575 just yesterday, as it happens -- gorgeous. I've always considered it the most lyrical of Mozart's quartets. Not contrapuntal enough for your tastes, perhaps.