Thanks Jay for the extensive A&B experience. We don't get this from regular reviews. Thanks also for fleshing out the pros of both DACS on all counts. Its so exhaustive and comprehensive. We will wait for the next showdowns / shootouts. Its a lot of fun. I surmise all of us have a common denominator: we all love to listen to good music. Cheers everybody.
Voted 2,1,2. I really enjoy my dCS and recently upgraded from the Bartok to the Rossini. I also have the clock. The MSB was extremely good but for the money dCS is the winner for me. Thanks Jay for a great shoot out!
I agree in my listening experiece, could you make a comment of contribution in terms of Sound Quolity of the dCS masterclock? I tested Mutec Ref10 just with a steramer SOtM sMS200 Ultra and the emprouvement was noticeble, more fluent and natural with very good 3D image.
@@robertobrandoli4462 With the clock you can hear the room on recordings, you get a palpable sense of space. With the clock shut off, the walls of the studio just disappear and suddenly it's a performer in an ambiguous space. Turn the clock back on and the room parameters come back instantly.
Wow, the "in your face" of the DCS is the exact reason I went with the MSB - after seeing all the votes for the DCS (#2) I thought I was full of it as I voted for #1 in all 3 shoot outs - and although I wouldn't really expect to, I generally agree with all of Jay's descriptions in the various categories - and then finally, Jay not "preferring" one over the other of course was a strong possibility to begin with, so for sure, I'd most certainly be happy to own either DAC (Ha! I'd have to "win it" cause that would be the only way I could ever have one!) This shoot out was totally cool - - a tip of the hat from me to Jay for pulling off such a cool comparison.
Just goes to show there is nothing like being in the room! Streamed through quality DAC on my end had me leaning towards Presentation#2! Thanks Jay for the ride along!
Very detailed and informative shootout. Some of the MSB’s strengths are probably hard to hear over You Tube such as the precise imaging, whereas the DCS’s slam is hard to miss:). Will be going out of my way to hear the MSB in person sometime soon. In the meantime time, thanks for all of your incredible effort Jay. You continue to take us all on a journey not available anywhere else!
I'm pleased that I got this one right. For some reason my experience with the Rossini and Bartok really gave the impression of a more digital, clear, but potentially harsh sound that you need cables like Transparent to tame. It's not really my thing and I really appreciated the tonal richness and soundstage of the MSB. At the moment I'm pretty content with my EMM DA2, which probably sits a little closer to the MSB, but between both.
First of all, Jay, thank you! This was an interesting experience and eye-opening as well as gratifying. I appreciate the amount of work involved, and so I don't expect one of these shoot-outs weekly going forward, but I definitely and eagerly anticipate the next one. On a personal note, I am definitely going to consider an upgrade from my current streaming DAC, and it most likely going to be a dCS model (the choice being between the Bartok and the Rossini).
Jay, very objective review...As with so many high-end products it comes down to personal preference, as there are many great products at those price points!
At this level it comes down to preference... I always like precision and truthfulness to the source, but in the end I always put everything through a tube preamp. Saying this, both of these DACs sounded absolutely wonderful. Depending upon the music I played I might have chosen one DAC over the other.
Damn, I liked #1 almost across the board and suspected it was MSB based on how people typically describe their smooth, "organic", and "musical" nature. It sounded more rich, nuanced, and 3D, and thus natural, to me in this shootout. I currently own a dCS Paganini and enjoy it very much, but I may have to look at an MSB Discrete for my next choice.
Jay, thank you for the effort and time your put into your demonstrations! I would also encourage you to try the Chord DAVE which I believe has the soundstage and imaging that would be the sweet spot, And even though it is not as costly as the two competitors, I believe it is an equally worthy challenger. Regards!
David Wilson did indeed used dcs in the development of his big line speakers. David was abour musicality and accuracy. I fully trust your evaluation of c each dac. After all you are the one in the room, and you know your room. Thanks Jay. I'm thirsting for some big boy mono blocks, bring on the juice sir.
I was so sure the msb was number 2 , so wrong I was. I listened with nice headphones and IEMs no way we can tell what your room sounds like Thank u for trying!!!
Great description Jay. But, from my point of view, you missed something very important : MUSICALITY. I always look first for musicality. We like each device to sound as good as possible and I mean dynamics, soundstage, depth, bass, etc., but as long as the musicality is missing or less present, I think it is not worth buying (especially on DACs). And in the description, you revealed at one point what the brand of the Dac is for presentation 1. You said that it has a better noise floor, due to the construction. Back then, it was somewhat obvious that it was MSB.✔
Jay, thank you. Great video as always. You just helped me make my choice. I appreciate it a lot. Please keep on doing what you are doing. Thank you again
Yes! And like cars, people always try to judge them by the numbers.. but you have to drive them to feel how different the experience is and which you prefer. They like to call them overpriced and overrated, like Porsches, but "there is no substitute".
@@kimchee411 absolutely… not only the car as a whole might feel completely different but even the characteristics of the engine (with the same horsepower) can be! The guys with so called „engineering background“ much too often don’t get that unfortunately.
I am not sure that they are directly comparable. It also varies quite a bit in terms of the listener's experience and preferences, as well as the accompanying system components. I like Esoteric's N1-XD or K01-XD better than either the DCS Vivaldi One or the MSB Tech's Select DAC and transport, all of which I have owned. But I am a classical violinist, and listen to lots of string music. Of course, all of these products are tremendously overpriced!
@@JingoLoBa57 It may be that you have not heard the new FPGA-based Esoteric K1x, K-01XD or N-1XD. They are very warm and not bright at all. But most audiophiles like to hear things like they are sitting far back in the audience, I like to hear music as if I am playing it. I have owned all of these players side-by-side, and the Esoteric sounded the best and most transparent. DCS's Vivaldi One and MSB Technologies Select DAC sound as if a sound engineer had screwed with the dials to conform to what they thought was most "musical", but even after months of trying them all and using all of the different filters, the Esoteric sounded the best of the 3 different players by far...not bright at all - although I do have a Luxman tube preamplifier, Audio Research mono-blocks, and Wilson Sasha 2 loudspeakers - they may make the sound "warmer."
I auditioned the MSB Select II vs. the full Vivaldi stack (no transport) on Wilson XVX and Dan Dag Momentum pre/amp, and for my taste MSB won by a mile. It made me forget to analyze and take notes, I was just lost in the music. With the Vivaldi I can't help but keep noticing how the sound is thinner, and more sibilant in spots, and how the Timbre and color of the music was more bleached out, also MSB detached the music from the speakers with great depth while Vivaldi was a bit more attached. MSB was like you're at the musical event, Vivaldi was like you're listening to the monitors at the mixing board.
Jay, that was a great recap of these two DACs! It sounds like you would be happy with either in your system, but feel there might be something you prefer better in your system. A few of the DACs that you might consider are: 1. T+A 3100HV (Decked out with a lot of functionality) 2. Brinkmann Audio Nyquist (Known for turntables so was thinking they would make a great DAC as well!) 3. Mola-Mola Tambaqui (Bruno Putzey's company. I believe he invented Class D amplification, or at least had a hand in it) 4. Playback Designs MPD-8 Dream DAC ( Very interesting design philosophy) Thanks for all your hard work Jay!
Such a great analysis, thank you for taking the time to put it together!! You really know your stuff. Which would you recommend for mixing and mastering? To hear exactly what is there, with the least colour, most neutrality etc. Thank you!!
Great review Jay; well done again. The beauty of what you have done for my listening is that I am better able to gauge what I like in “my” sound. Then you constantly challenge my sound, to ensure that what I like is actually what I like. Some important things I have learned is musicality is my #1; then I like just the warm side of neutral, clarity, separation of soundstage and size of sound stage. Thanks for that. On the presentation I liked 1 in 1 (2 was “muddy” to me on the first song), then 2 in 2 and then too close to call in 3. I said I would be happy with either, and probably price sensitive, hence the Rossini. Keep up the good work and thanks once again.
Great Video. As far a shootout since you have been testing dacs why not an interconnect shootout...or I2S if that's what your using. Would be great to hear about the differences in sound between them. I am not sure if you have done anything like that already. Thanks again....these videos are a lot of fun.
Data Conversion System ( DCS) with the Bartok they offer an excellent DAC for 12 k value far from the 40k of the vivaldi !! Meanwhile try two others DAC : Tambaqui of Mola Mola and Dave from Chord . Theses two DAC gave a hard time sonically to the Bartok !!! But I prefer the Bartok when used with an excellent cables !
J thank you for your effort doing these tests , for me it would have been much more interesting if you had 3rd dac that's in 3,000 to 10,000 USD range , Chord Dave or Holo Audio May Dac or any other ( under 10 k) , just to see how it would compare to the big boys costing 4x more in case of DCS and 10x more in case of MSB .... but I do understand that you are in a different league . Also I wonder why you did not use built in network cards and went for 20k Aurender streamer, using built in network would have shown strength of each DAC better ...
Jay, Perfect timing. I just received my August 2021 Stereophile magazine and their is a two page "follow-up" article 0n pages 97 and 99, by John Atkinson on the AR 6SE. One statement in the article matched exactly what you stated . . . "Which preamplifier I preferred depended on the loudspeakers I used"' Check it out.
Great shoot out Jay, love the comparison between the 2 units. I wonder what the outcome would have been using a taiko extreme as the server then each unit dacs. Extremely surprised you have not had a taiko in your system yet, as it’s hands down the best server money can buy. Your thoughts on this server would be appreciated as you have no monetary affiliation unlike magazine reviews. Really good work, looking forward to your next instalment.
I picked presentation 1. I felt presentation 2 sounded a bit digital in comparison. In presentation 2 the dynamics were better, it was brighter there was more slam but the MSB sounded closer to a good analog system, more realistic. I also felt that presentation 2 would lead to ear fatigue (I would be done listening within an hour).
I know I’m being very picky here (and no offence to you and I understand what your saying), but ALL digital is digital. The purist note curve is the actual instrument, then the curve in a well pressed record, then …… digital is certainly getting better and is hugely convenient and fun at a party. But sound wise will always be third best in sound.
@@philipzappala4850 although what Jay did was cool beyond cool, and that's not just the DACs, it's his entire reference system - you get no argument from me Phillip - - I love records - - and - - I'm a life long pro musician with a fair amount of studio experience. Anyway, I'll never forget the sound of a clarinet being played live, it was the first time I heard a real instrument being played by itself, it was a kid warming up for the school band - I was in 6th grade, it blew me away, I'll never forget it - I'm nearly 70 now to add a bit of perspective to that moment in time.
@@philipzappala4850 And I am not saying I did not like the DCS. In fact if I could afford, I would have both as Jay noted. I would use the DCS to demo my system for friends and family just because it makes an awesome first impression as the vote confirms. I have an analog system (turntable, reel to reel) and I will say you need to spend $$$ to great analog sound. Once you do attain it, its hard to beat especially for older recordings.
With such a difference between what you heard in the room and what the viewers heard through their systems / headphones, is this pointing to a large RU-vid deficiency in sound reproduction?
How much better can these super expensive DACs get? For example the Benchmark DAC3 is considered a great DAC which is transparent. Not saying that , DAC don’t sound different they all do. But if these expensive DACs sound that much better, then one is lying. When I say lying, one must be enhancing the audio somehow.
I think it's a matter of preference, whether you prefer a dynamic sound with resolution (MSB) or a relaxed sound (dCS). I voted for all #1, but I'd like #2 for my sub, lol.
Excellent, comprehensive analysis. Thank you. As I commented in an earlier video, no dealer is going to go to this length for a customer. Do you have an opinion on which DAC is more forgiving of less than ideal recordings?
You should try to hear the DCS Vivaldi, it’s quite a bit better than the Rossini. I love the form factor and features of the Rossini, and it’s really good, but man everytime I think about purchasing one, I always end up with Save for the Vivaldi, or find a used one set. In my experience, all I want is the DAC and Upsampler which adds network streaming.
I have a full Vivaldi set that I bought from the dealer in Poland you can email him for reference also you can speak to Raveen Bawa at DCS I am looking at selling it as I am moving to another country if your interested get in touch with me the equipment is 230V silver color
Thanks for the great review. Some things surprised me, and some I just can’t hear since we aren’t in your room. May I ask a qualitative question? Which DAC is more musical, lets you just enjoy the emotion of the music?
curious... what if you were to ouput from the dcs into a tube pre-amp (as when you had the vivaldi)... wouldn't that give you the best of both experiences?
This is all a bit ridiculous to those of us with a nice turntable, cartridge, and phono stage. This would absolutely smoke any of these dacs. This would be an interesting video : a $4k turntable, a $2500 cartridge, and $4k phono preamp. Compare that to any dac…. C’mon, it will be good for business! Not against good dacs, I have a tambuqui, but my phono setup smokes t.
Very interesting. I voted for # 1 all three times and I own the Rossini + Master Clock dCS. An important point however, the sound quality of the Rossini is superior with the Ethernet input than with the USB.
at this level, selecting a noisier product over another doesnt make sense, regardless of other qualities. For that reason, i would say neither of these DACs should stay.
Jay Would you try holo may dac it’s been a rave review on the RU-vid about it’s 3-D Sound stage and image. I have heard of Vivaldi at one dealer it’s clarity is second to none. but it has no soundstage. Price tag sometimes not represent everything. Porsche GT win over Ferrari and Many many more
@@jaysaudiolab You should not be presumptuous and comment out of either prejudice, lack of experience or ignorance. Try the T&A High Voltage PDP series products and others and then make such "authoritative" comments. We are not all fledglings in this hobby! High quality CD playback ( I have the T&A PDP 3000 HV ) WILL outperform streamed music and will eliminate all the whimsical irregularities of the providers! By the way, read what I posted for the first video ( I did not bother for the other two ). Finally, you are doing an admirable job; your concepts and knowledge about sound have improved exponentially, even if at times you fall into minor contradictions .....like all of us! Keep up the good, unpretentious work.
Jay, try a quick tweak: AudioQuest JitterBug FMJ. I didn't think it would make much of a difference, but it was clearly audible in my system, and for just $59.
Jason Serinus of Stereophile has the Rossini + Clock and the DV2 and he says the DV2 is denser sounding. That's why I thought #1 must be the Rossini. Boy was I in for a surprise.
I keep hearing That the PSaudio BHK amplifier sounds better than amps 5 times it's price. If you could get your hands & ears on one of those it would be David vs Goliath
@@bikemike1118 Psaudio pulled their gear from dealers some time ago and only do direct to customer now so a demo can only be had @ Their factory in Colorado.
@@craigblackwood2165 I see. Didn’t know that. Then either try that way or look for a used PS Audio amp, buy it and check it out , compare and maybe sell it again for something different…..kind of like Jay himself does. It is system dependent as well but that it kills amps five times as pricey….think that is an advertising from Paul McGowan . It’s probably this 1% which is UNTRUE in his book „99 percent true“ 🤨
Whilst you have both of the dacs there, maybe you could change interconnects and use downloaded music rather than streaming. I personally don’t have a dac at the moment. I love the convenience of streaming and even the ability to “load” my record collection in a more convenient digital format. I think this format is the future and I know my 4 kids love this type of music. For me the constant changing of sounds does drive me wild.
Holo Audio May smokes all the Chords, which as FPGA Dacs (like dCS) cannot fully control their treble, leading to short, harsh and fatiguing listening sessions. The closest competition for MSB is not any FPGA Dac but the fellow R2R Dac from Holo Audio May.
@@connorduke4619 "cannot fully control their treble, leading to short, harsh and fatiguing listerning sessions" WOW, that's a big stretch of audiophile bullshit. To this day the DAVE measures far better on the APx555 than both Holo May and MSB products, across the whole spectrum. Never once have I heard of the Dave being "fatiguing" - its very much an R2R NOS bias driving your fanboyish statement. I would go for a Chord or Mola Mola over these oversized, overpriced (in particular the MSBs) R2R implementations any day.
@@rustygates3367 My ears are particularly sensitive to any kind of harshness or brightness in the treble, which pretty much rules out DS or FPGA Dacs for me. Secondly, with respect to Chord Dave and Mola, both of them stick noisy SMPS's smack bang into the same box in charge of the DAC process. And then ask $10,000 for the privilege. No wonder they cannot compete with the dual double ladder Dac Holo May which has an external, flat-wired, dual LPSU in a separate box. So that leaves the Chord and Mola having to compensate for that massive circuit noise disadvantage into the programming of their chips. And they both simply fail to do it.. Chord Dave treble is too harsh and Mola treble is too bright, whether there is yet a proper measurement for that or not. No wonder Holo May is now the reference Dac at Stereophile magazine and not these overpriced imposters with their cheapskate SMPS's destroying any chance at achieving a premium sound quality before the poor chip programmers could even begin.
@@connorduke4619 Wow, that was a mouthful. I don't even know where to start explaining how incorrect you are with your bashing of switch-mode and potentially extending to class-D amplification too. It just seems to me you are one of those suckers who buy up the BS sales lingo for premium $$$ like "class A", "linear PSU", "zero feedback", "NOS" and think it somehow is a silver bullet to sound quality, but given you most likely have very little technical background, I'll start. Quality SMPS's are actually far more difficult to design and get right than linear PSU's, and same with Class-D amplification. The notion SMPSs or Class-D is noisy is based on some bullshit from yesteryear. For example, the Mola Mola Kula, is one of the best sounding amplifiers on the market and its Class-D, powered by a kickass SMPS and has plenty of feedback circuitry implemented correctly (just see Steve Guttenburgs review as a start). The Tambaqui, if you read the newest Stereophile review, in Herb Reicherts own words, *the Holo May could not match* (oh, its powered by an SMPS) and there's a lot more smashing of the May that happens in that article. The noisiest amplifiers and DACs I have actually heard or seen measurements of, are actually linear or Class-A. Sure, there are linear PSUs & Class-A that is done right (like the Farad PSU), but in terms of RIP OFF, that award definitely goes to the likes of Dan D'Agostino, MSB, etc. etc. all those audio wank "premium brands" with sub par sound quality. As for your "bright, harsh" treble BS, you firstly need to get your ears checked, and secondly, if you did a blind test where you did not know what it was or if it had a SMPS or if someone lied to you and said it has a linear PSU, you would very likely be all over it; that's the reality of the matter, a bias against things you don't remotely understand. So much for those "poor chip programmers" such as Bruno Putzeys and Rob Watts two of the best electronic engineers in audio to walk this earth, who've made machines that perform better than the long winded R2R, linear PSU approach.
@@rustygates3367 Thanks for your lengthy reply. As an Old Soul I do not fall for marketing slogans actually. I recall for years Class D was regarded as unable to compete with Class A/B but that the Mola designer has helped to pretty much close that gap. Linear PSU still seems to get overall better press than SMPS but no doubt the best of the letter likely close most of the gap as well. Stereophile still rates the May as one its 13 "A+" Dacs alongside the Mola. From the limited number of Mola demo's I have heard, none blow me away with the 3D holographic soundstage I prefer which virtually every Holo May Dac demo does. I attributed this in part to the design decision of Holo Audio (and MSB Select who's sound I also like) to place their PSUs in a separate chassis, in order to prevent EMI interference with the clocks in their Dacs. If I hear a persuasive demo of the Molo that would likely persuade me that the design feature of a separate PSU is relatively unimportant. However I have not heard such a demo as yet.
@@chrisrichards2827 why the negativity - he has his own approach, it’s his journey. Yes there may be better reviewers, but he didn’t have to create a channel. We have a choice to listen or ignore. Thanks Jay. BTW I will never be able to buy anything at this level.
