Another advantage of having no cassette at the back is you can have the hub flanges wider apart and build a much stronger wheel for virtually the same weight.
@@uncleputes But braking the rim with that has much larger diameter and is "already there" kinda makes more sense in principle. I need to look into hydraulic rim brakes now. :)
@@dzidmail And how well are they gonna work when riding through mud? I can take a guess it's a little worse than discs...There's a reason motorcycles use disc brakes these days
@@uncleputes (I found my old rim brakes to worked better in wet. Depends on compound.) With snow there were issues. And yeah, with mud though, they eat up through rims faster. :( I managed to forgot about that over the years. And also the fact that any rim wobble is a total pain. Being in hot climate now, I would like to give it another try with rear suspension, but in practice it's unlikely to find a frame with the mounts.
Built my own custom titanium hardtail with a pinion gearbox and belt drive, and 3D printed an electronic shifter for it. It was weird getting back to a derailleur when I travelled to a local island without my bike, and the zero maintenance drivetrain has been magnificent - I’ve not washed my bike in over 1000km (whoops)
Doddy is a great host. The detailed explanation of the difference in feel of the bikes is exactly the kind of thing I want to hear if I’m deciding on a purchase.
@@04Serena Isn't it frustrating dealing with terrible drivers, and the danger they place you in? I ride a motorcycle, drive a commercial truck and enjoy mountain bikes, so I always give road bikes their space even if non are present to me.
The remarks about added friction should be relativized. A gearbox has more friction than a clean straight derailleur chain line. But as soon as your chain line is not straight or dirty, the difference gets a lot smaller. In my experience, the added friction is mostly in between the ears, because it feels and sounds different.
@@juhao81 Yes but no. ;) Off course, the chain gets dirty as well on a gearbox bike, but because of the straight chain line and no derailleur, a lot less dirt gets into the chain itself. Also, a single speed chain without a tensioner is a lot more ‘self-cleaning’, because the sprockets (with higher teeth and more clearance around them) push all the dirt out of the chain links. Therefore a lot less friction in real life.
... and that is original Effigear box. They have now smaller and lighter version called Mimic. I'm really looking forward to what they will be able to achieve in the nearest future... Cheers! I.
Horses for courses. Nothing beats the feeling of a crisp and clean derailleur system. But I also have a gearbox hardtail, and the fact that it just always works is ideal. Especially when trying to fit your mountain biking in between work, kids and social activities. I hate it having to fix up my bike five minutes before I’m meeting my friends to go for a ride.
That's the main advantage for a gearbox. Throw in a Gates Carbon belt and you get a no maintenance bike. This type of bike is totally resistant to dirt no matter what. Cleaning ends in hossing it down and that's mainly for your own conscience and not because the bike needs it. Derailer systems are more efficient when you are investing a lot of time in maintenance but when not the difference isn't this great.
Which is easier to fix when you have a breakdown on the road-- this newfangled, interior rail hub never-seen-it-before system, or the typical derailleur that everyone knows and loves?
@@michaelsigismonde7958 with a Rohloff Hub, or another quality product, that’s a theoretical question. Besides, when you get a stick in your rear derailleur, and your derailleur ends up in the spokes of your rear wheel at top speed, then good luck trying to fix that mess of broken parts on the side of the trail.
Millyards gearbox is a Shimano Alfine hub. His genius was how it was integrated with the bike he made, including enclosing the chain within the swingarm to keep it clean.
Sam Shaw rode Zerode Taniwha in 2018 and 2019 in whole EWS series. Something between 30-40 places overall. But to make it much "visible" it has to be in first 5-10 overall. I belive it will be in next 3 years.
I know that Doddy points out that it is not a comparison of bikes but the whole package makes a difference. It is a longer travel coil sprung bike with a more flexible steel rear triangle and it has a lot more sprung weight. All of these things contribute to more grip along with the unsprung weight. It would be interesting to do a comparison on the canyon where he switches between a heavy duty tire wheel and drivetrain combo, a lightweight tire wheel and drivetrain combo and perhaps even a lightweight combo without chain derailleur and cassette just for comparison of unsprung weight.
"the more you ride it the quicker it goes away" The gearbox oil viscosity would change with some work raising the oil temperature, so yeah that makes sense.
I thought that his 'goes away' comment meant that your legs just get used to it but the change in viscosity is a good point. This would mean that the advantage of the gearbox over a dirty derailleur on a cold day would not be as great if the oil remained cold.
@@Sidowse (material engineering student)there are way too many variables but yes. the heat is contained and they have much more friction radiating Heat into the oil. I'm also assuming they're going to using a very light oil. For motor oil the viscosity takes a massive Spike downward(gets more "watery" flows faster) from 0 to 10 c. It starts to plateau around 60 - 70 c. I have no doubt they're using a much lighter oil than engine oil but from that data alone I'm assuming the average fit human should have no problem raising the oil temp I enough. What I meant by 10 degrees Celsius is an increase from standstill not from zero celsius that was not clear sorry this is so long
In my experience going from derailleur setup to effectively a single speed setup with a gearbox or, like in my case, a gear hub reduces amount of maintenance of the chain to such a level that you don't notice it. I think that chain being higher from the ground saves it from a lot of dust and dirt. I don't see much need to go from single speed chain to a belt (and I used to own a belt drive too).
I thought the same. What puts me of the most with the derailleur is the constant cleaning and relubing of the chain. Get all the mud, grime and grass of the jockey wheels and cassette is really a hassle
@@glebivanovsky7886 But belt is a higher level. F.a. people talk about to use some silicone oil spray on belt when very warm or colt on the outside. I set belt line perfecty straight (I think under 1mm tolerance between fornt and rear cog) and after one whole season I have non problematic, ultra clean and silent drivetrain. Totaly different planet for me after sit down from derailleur. Washing the bike is another planet.
I think for UK riding in winter the gearbox is a no brainer, although, I do look after my bikes, particularly the transmission, so have very few problems with derailleurs. I can't understand why downhill bikes aren't already running gear boxes, they don't need loads of gears, additional friction is only a disadvantage when peddling a lot and it eliminates smashed rear derailleurs.
I've had a Zerode Taniwha with a 12 speed Pinion gearbox, and have had it from when they were first released a number of years ago. Some thoughts on the gearbox. I think there is more drag than a derailleur setup, particularly during break in, but you get use to it and largely isn't a factor. From my design experience I suspect the biggest contributor is the drag from all the seals, then from the fact that it is a constant mesh gearbox meaning all the gears are always spinning. When you are pedaling in a low gear, the other gears are turning relatively slowly so the drag isn't that much, but when you use the higher gears, the slow gears that aren't being used are spinning faster than the gears you are using. I believe due to this, the efficiency is pretty decent in the lower gears, but gets more noticeable in the higher gears. The gearbox should be reliable but mine had to go in for a repair when something in the shifting system failed. I understand that Pinion has upgraded this. It definitely adds weight to the bike, but it is low and central, which is where you want it. I also think the Taniwha is overbuilt so that adds a bit of weight. Shifting is something you get use to but there is definitely a learning curve so most experienced riders struggle with it when they first try it. It's something you need to commit to and it does come good. Once you are use to it, the advantages are that you can change gear super fast, you can change many gears as fast as single change, and you don't have to be pedaling to change gears. The down side is you can't shift to an easier gear without taking the load off for an instant, and though with a regular drivetrain you can mash a gear, it is not kind to the drivetrain, particularly the chain. Chains seem to last forever. I'm still on my original chain. For the bike, besides the advantages of taking the weight off the rear wheel, it also affords a lot of advantages for the bike as the suspension pivots can be placed to take best advantage of a single chain line and a fix cog sizes. So I like the system, but it is not the home run for everyone. If I was XC racing, I don't think this is a good option due to the weight and drag, but for gravity assisted riding, and general riding where the fun factor doesn't hinge on weight and efficiency, then I think it a good option.
I ride an R&M Delight Mountain e bike with Rollhof and belt drive after becoming fed up with cleaning mud and gunk from derailleurs and chains after almost every ride . As far as I am concerned the advantages of minimal maintenance outweighs the weight disadvantage . I feel there is more internal drag from gearbox and belt but for my trail riding it hardly notices. When gearbox systems get lighter and incorporated with the mid mount motor they will become unbeatable .... cant wait for the new developments in the pipeline.
Great video! I happen to own a hardtail with a Pinion gearbox (11Ants pANTher, lovely Titanium frame). 12-speed, 600% range so even better than on a 12 speed derailleur setup. I'm running it with 650B tyres and treat is as a 'hard core hardtail' and have ridden it in Livigno in the Alps and it performs wonderfully. My other bike is a full suspension with 12 speed SRAM AXS geartrain on it. There is a difference and a bit of a learning curve but since the Pinion shifts with a rotating grip and the other with triggers, I immediately know what bike I'm on shifting-wise. The 11Ants pANTher has a carbon belt, that's even less maintenance than a chain like the one in this video. I still have the sound of the freewheel but if I put a silent rear hub in it, you wouldn't hear at thing on the bike. Keep up the great video's and I'm looking forward to more like this!
Hi Doddy, I really enjoyed your last video! How about you try one of the bikes made by Zerode Bikes? First of all they are carbon so you safe that bit of weight (not that I prefer carbon over steel, because I don't!) And second of all you should be able to compare not just thee new effigear gearbox to a regular derailleur system but also to the gearbox made by pinion ... I'd really like to see that! Keep up the good work 😉
What I really like is that he is admitting that the different characteristics of changing gears isn't really a problem but a matter of experience. It takes some time to getting used to but afterwards there isn't much of a difference. Most bikers had years or even decades to get accustomed to the oddities of derailleur systems so it feels odd to use a gearbox and you just notice it's downsides because you don't know enough to use it's advantages
Spot on, on everything. Exactly how I felt. Centered Gearboxes are made for Mountain bikes ! And rear hub gearboxes for city / touring. It's a matter of time when I get my hands on a beauty like this . 😁 Great video. Thanks again .
Great video Doddy!! Was waiting for something like this! And you did a great job of telling all the differences, pros and cons! Just love the comparison! I personally like the derailleur as of its popularity and replaceability and availability of parts for it in India! Just a great video!
Doddy, great insight. I’ve been sensing some of the same differences on my FS gearbox bike, but there are very few folks to chat with on the subject. While I know nil about Effigear, the Pinion friction is zero in 1st gear and substantial in 9th gear. So climbing in low gear, I get little friction at all. I suppose there’s friction in higher gears, but again, that’s going downhill and it doesn’t seem to matter. Another friction factor is that it decreases steadily over the first thousand miles or so. Along with that, it gets easier to shift over time. Finally, while the Starling is a bespoke beauty, the Zerode bikes are far more sophisticated and mainstream. And they move like Jagger…
Find a Zerode katipo to ride on the show with the Gates Carbon Drive, so quiet. Knowing what the back wheel is doing gives you confidence and smiles. Only in the early days of riding mine and the friction hasn't been an issue. So much fun
Hey mate great vid,i have a c12 pinnon DEVAITE GUIDE ive own it for nearly three year it been an awesome bike and transmission in everyway i say the gearbox has got better with age with hardly no resistance as it got older ,i am using grip shift which works really well with gearbox as you can shift a hand full of gears at anytime chainring gear for me is just quite normal now it did take a bit of getting used to, it performs really well on long xc loops and trail centre's i can't say i notice the extra weight now,i am really happy with mine💚
I bought a hardtail titanium frame with a pinion gearbox several years ago and really enjoyed it. This year I bought a zerode with another pinion gearbox and belt drive and have been blown away with how great it is!
Solid overview by Doddy - it feels like we are so close to gearboxes being a reality - just not there yet. When Shimano and Sram step up (which you know they will) the derailleur will be like 26" wheels and fixed seat posts...
Good video. If you just take the next step of a belt drive, the maintenance would be nearly zero. What puts me of the most with the derailleur is the constant cleaning and relubing of the chain. Get all the mud, grime and grass of the jockey wheels and cassette is really a hassle :-(
Awesome video! I think that is one of the best and fairest comparisons that I have seen that focused on the things that matter in this space. Look at the Zerode range from a more trail friendly option, 140mm Katipo with the pinion would be a great comparison. I have the 160mm Katipo frame nearly fully built up and I can't wait to join the gearbox revolution. I chose a gearbox bike for reasons outside the potential damage to a derailleur. In 25 years of riding MTB, and many crashes, I've never even bent one. It's all their fiddly maintenance, constant alignment issues, extra maintenance of the chain and general mess that I'm over. When taking into account the suspension bonus and the quiet ride, I'll pay the penalties
Yeah, it's a revolution. After one whole season on it... ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zBwEY1-njSE.html. There's no way back. Never again derailleur in any bike to the rest of my life I hope. Now I built FatBike and hardtail with Pinion and Gates... I can't wait to try it in 2022.
I'd expect high pivot gearboxes to be the future. Maybe with some gearbox design that doesn't require keeping gears in the liquid and instead of more oil film on the gears similar to chain? Also, the gearbox design would need to avoid using planetary gears to reduce friction but that requires even smaller parts. The major problem is pretty high torque needed, huge gear range (I'd prefer 500+%) required and the cost. Maybe the gearbox could have some small oil pump that spreads oil film on the gears when you backpedal? That way you could avoid having gears in the oil all the time and any time you feel noise or friction increasing, pedal a bit backwards and it's just fine again.
Regarding gear changes, I drilled gear changes with my Alfine 11 to see how quickly I could change. From a dead stop to sprint it was incredibly fun when you get those gear changes down to a 10's or 100's of ms. Switching back and forth between my derailleur trail bike however created some muscle memory problems, and I mangled some gear changes on both bikes, if I had been on one system for too long. I love my Eagle GX, but the benefits of an IGH were already showing how great gearboxes can be. A proper pinion gearbox is really exciting.
If you were to move freewheel mechanism into the gearbox itself and move the rear caliper to the gearbox side (possible packaging issues) you can reduce the unsprung weight even further with basically the only thing that rear shock has to manage is the wheel, the bearings and the axle. I wonder if that's possible
Good points from Doddy. Surprisingly though, it doesn't take that long to learn to shift on a gearbox. I'd say it took me 5-6 rides on my Zerode. Now I'm loving shifting while coasting over rough stuff, ready for what's coming up. Good honest opinion piece though, mirrors my initial impressions as well.
Great video Doddy. I‘am running a double chainring Rohloff setup on one my bikes for years now. Having about 700% gearratio is absolutely stunning and I would never drive something else again on my fully. No messing arround with jumping gears, no issues with maintenance and thar hughe range of gears that I all use are just a few aurguments for the gearbox setup. Thanks for the viedos an go on.
Just something to add. The higher friction is with the Rohloff more in your mind than in the hub. A neglected or worn out deraileur setup has always more friction than the Rohloff.
My single speed 29r has a silent hub and it has always been a treat to ride and hear the tires doing their jobs. It is a hard tail but I can totally agree how that little bit of weight off the far back of the bike makes the whole thing so much more lively. Will be interested to see if these gearboxes really catch on.
Campagnolo: We made a 13 speed drivetrain. SRAM: Hold my beer. However, I stopped the video at the 14:36 mark, took a screenshot, and counted the cogs. He only has 12 on there. So I don't know why he said 14.
Hi Doddy. Great review mate. I made the switch to a pinion gearbox a few months ago and will never go back. I thought it was all about lower maintenance drivetrain but the real surprise was the suspension performance. Interesting to see you felt the same improvements. When you remove the cassette, mech and chain off the back wheel the magic grip happens. You need to review a Zerode Katipo with Gates belt drive. I guarantee you will want to keep that bike!
Hehe, True. Love mine... After a year I can't imagine going back to the gear and chain. Now I built FatBike and semi agressive hartail, both with pinion and gates.
I have had a Curtis AM7 hardtail with a Pinion gearbox for the last 18 months, it's just the dream, not just to ride but with that Curtis frame, to look at too 😁🤘🤘🤘
Another Thing. You do also move the center of Mass more to the middle, than om the back. That will give more control like a lamborghini vs a porsche. When we talk about engine placement
Doddy also forgot to mention that with some gearboxes you get a small but very noticeable deadzone of pedaling before the box engages movement with the chain. Then you also have to deal with the deadzone before your hub engages too unless you have a real expensive set of hubs. On the gearbox bike I demoed I really despised the laggy sensation of turning the cranks so far without engagement to my rear wheel.
Yes, I noticed this on a Pinon equipped demo bike a while ago. However, Effigears new Mimic box with much better engagement might negate this hopefully.
i think you can solve the problem of the gearbox needing to be in oil and have less oil with a propeler system that flicks the oil round the gears when you pedal
10k km between services sounds marketing bs. What is considered service? I thing cleaning and lubing chain is service :) So this you will do as often as normal bike. How about chain? Does it last 10k Km? Chainrings could last 10k km. So this mainly removes the adjusting of the rear derailleur. Does gearbox still use cable? If yes that will need tuning also. Would be cool to see video of the actual service differences behind marketing bs. 10k km is just the oil service but there are still other service to be done I’m sure. Cool system anyway and would love to try one!
@@RealMTBAddict hehe. No it's not. 10kkm are oil intervals. Yeah, with gearbox in SS mode, chain and chainrings should last about 10kkm in full suspension bike. Of cours You should still clean and lube chain - but deinitely not so often as with standard drivetrain. If you use belt the only maintanence is washing drivetrain when washing bike. In full suspension bike gearbox drivetrain parts (sprockets, belt, chain) last a little bit less. My friend made 36kkm in hardtail bike riding 3 years in every conditions on one set with gates belt. My 9 speed Pinon has 570% range...
I ride a paregrine cycles frame with 165/180 m of travel (f/r), high pivot with a 12 sp pinion gear box. I agree with Dodi’s points, most of the riding I do is gravity fueled and the benefits far out way any negatives. The centralized mass and Un sprung weight give these bikes amazing suspensions characteristics, amazing traction and small bump compliance. The difference in shifting between the gearbox and derailure systems takes a little getting used to but with a little familiarization I have come to really like how the gear box shifts, I can be coasting through rocks where I’m not able to get a peddle stroke and make my next gear selection before starting to peddle again. Love it
YES Doddy, definitely do a second comparison with a more trail oriented gearbox bike on your home turf 🙏 P.S. What's up (side down) with those Öhlin stickers?
I tried a pinion gearbox enduro bike (won´t advertise here). My impressions: - Silence! Having nothing that rattles around all the time, no matter how bumpy the trail, is just bliss - Precision: somehow I got the impression to be able to have more control over the rear - Immediate shifting!! Wrong gear on a hill? no issue! - Clean: washing your bike without tons of greasy parts to clean. My next bike will have a gear box. Till then, I shred on, on my Capra.
Sadly this is already yesterday's Effigear. They've developed the Mimic, wich mimics the Pinion mounting points (pun intended) And the chain is also on the crank axle, instead of a high pivot. I think it's great news for us consumers, because bike brands can now make a frame for gearboxes, which are supported by two brands.
Hi Doddy I bought Zerode Taniwha ( second hand right place right time it seems)140mm travel front and rear 600% gear range with the Pinion 12 speed gearbox. My other bike is a Santa Cruz 2022 Bronson. The Taniwha is 300 grams heavier. Both bikes have carbon rims tubeless tyres carbon bars so pretty much the same set up. The mullet rolls over things better and the Taniwha with the lighter back end seems to track better. I like the lack of maintenance and will be fitting the Gates carbon belt drive later in the year when they are available so silent rides. Enjoy you show great content thanks Cheers Gaz A Kiwi
Always feels like a missed opportunity when a gearbox bike isn't paired with the excellent Gates belt drive. I'm waiting for the day when they make a full suspension e-bike with electronic shifting and gates belt drive. That would be perfection!
Zerode have just opened their European base and distributor. They make the katipo, a carbon framed trail 29er with a pinion gear box(it looks to be amazing). I would love to see the same video with that bike!
i have had a katipo for a year or so - its a great ride. mine has the 9 speed (560%) and the belt drive with the high end fox forks and shocks. it really does give confidence on the downhills. I love cleaning the bike - just soapy water is enough! The only annoying thing is the belt makes a weird sound in dry dusty conditions. this is caused by a built up of static electricity on the idler wheel. in thick mud it is silent.
When I had a Shimano Alfine 11 internal hub for half a season, the shifting took no time to get used to. Yes, you have to stop pedaling to change gears. But the shifting is so instant, it is WAY faster to stop pedaling for a fraction of a second, shift a gear or two or 10, then start pedaling. It was way faster and you'd lose way less momentum doing this, vs traditional derailers where you have to pedal light and slowly wait for the shift. That aspect was vastly superior to derailers.
After the mud and grass carnage of my last cyclocross race, the extra friction of internal gears has to be less than a chain covered in mud, , and pulley wheels collecting mud and grass. Not to mention the few hours of cleaning afterwords. I need a viable internal gear hub for drop bar thru axels. I’d love a kindernay xiv for my mtb, but it’s a lot.
I previously commented on the Dirtshed Show video this last week that the gearbox is likely to be adopted on eMTBs. It seems like a winner for Downhill Bikes where ther application of this has obvious advantages - no rear derailieur and less need to overcome that slightly increased friction of the gearbox.
Yes, Gamux bikes said this is the reason why they switched to a gearbox driven DH bike for their factory team. Also the ability to switch between gears on rough sections without pedalling or mid air.
Nothing beats the quiet ride with instant engagement of the Onyx vesper hub equipped MTB. At some point boys grow out of the baseball card on the spokes motorbike noise. Unless you need to drown out a noisy bike lol…🙏🔑✌️
You might try tp put power meters on a gearbox bike and a derailleur bike and do some runs up the hills, or flats, (I'd say do an XC course but it would be difficult to hold a steady watt output to make the rides equal) at a constant power and see what, if any, time differences there are.
You should look at a third option: internal gears on the rear wheel freeing the crank end for a gear box at the cranks or a minimal middrive. Internals on the rear wheel also offer instant shifting unlike external gearing! Last note is what about a Gates Beltdrive compared to chain drive?
Not sure what all is in these gearboxes but it’d be interesting to see if a fully synthetic oil of a very thin nature and a surface friction modifier like motor kote was used. Or even to the extent of gears with rolling green elements incorporated like a roller camshaft for an engine could do for really minimizing internal friction
Another aspect to deal with: having no rear derailleur allows manufacturers to have symmetrical rear wheels. Easier maintenance of spokes tension and more balanced riding feeling in the rear end. Really looking forward to having my first gear box bike!
In answer to you question re more trail riding. Ryan Duzer from Boulder Colorado uses a Pinion gearbox for his epic bikepacking trips as does the Cycling About dude. Ryan raves about his Pinion set up and i have never heard him lament the friction issue. PS great video, i love everything you guys do. Also that sound track was killer👌
I think if one big bike brand bought out a bike with a gear box,then most would follow like sheep,or make it and option like having 27.5,29 or mullet wheels,sick show lads 🤙
I wonder if an effigear frame can be made cross compatible with the different drivetrains. Like disconnecting the gear box by means of a sort of translator to move the actual teeth of the gears away from the crank spindle and turn it back into a cassette-style bike.
10:06 broke a derailleur recently again. took it and the chain off to finish the ride and it felt (and sounded) so much better. quite a shame that gearboxes are still so inaccessible.
I love the idea of gearbox MTB’s. No rear derailleur, no chain slapping about, etc. Weren’t Shimano working on their own? Will be interesting if the idea developers and I think things will really get interesting if we see a gearbox bike from one of the bigger brands. For now I’m really interested in the Zerode bikes. They look really nice. But I think I’d need to have a day, at least, testing the bike to get a good feel for how it all works in practice.
Now put it in a emtb… that would be the holy grail…the motor will take away the friction issue. One of the things that break the most and takes most time to maintain is the chain and derailleur. Maby even put on a split peld drive fromm Veer ;)
Hi Doddy, great explanation of both drivetrains. Love your videos! Imo, a fairly large number of people don't maintain their drivetrain properly, given this real life circumstances, is gearbox a better option bc it's both maintenance-free and the friction of the system remains the same in a wider range of conditions? Also, what's the standalone weight for both drivetrains? It gearbox system significantly heavier? In the video you have a carbon Canyon and a Aluminum Starling.
The Q-factor on these is pretty big -- 174mm. A lot of MTBs seem to veer into this range, but for someone used to 146 Campy on the road, does it mess up one's knees if used for long clipped-in miles spinning on gravel roads?
I once had a rear del get chewed up out on the trail. I had to remove it and run the rest of the way back in a middle gear BUT I did feel there was more power going through by having the chain in a straight line like in this setup. I’ve always toyed with the idea of running a Hub gear like a Nexus 8 which I know wouldn’t give the 500% spread but it might give you enough.
I like every single host on the MBN channels. But whenever Doddy is hosting, on any subject, the rate of informational transference is optimized to the Nth degree. Don't ever change, my brother. Thanks.
