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Music and Pattern (Royal Northern College of Music Q&A)

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Many of you might have seen this Q&A on RU-vid already. It's been on RU-vid for a whole 6 months and we have made many clips from it, but since it's such a good discussion, I thought it would be a shame not to have it on my channel. Thank you to the Royal Northern College of Music for hosting the discussion.
Original video: • Jonathan Pageau Q&A wi...
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Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Coming up next
00:00:58 - Intro music
00:01:22 - Start
00:01:49 - Why is symbolism an effective approach to religion?
00:06:05 - Does it matter that all of it happened?
00:08:36 - "Only" symbolic
00:13:43 - Archetypes VS fractals
00:19:37 - The purpose of music
00:26:07 - Music and liturgy
00:28:31 - Freeing ourselves from the pattern
00:34:28 - Relationship between objective truth and these patterns
00:37:54 - Can we look at beauty as something objective like biology?
00:45:27 - Was modernism inevitable?
00:54:02 - Do you discover or invent
00:59:44 - Authoritarianism + Freedom
01:00:57 - Traditional iconography and variation
01:05:53 - Do you discover something under symbolism?
01:08:45 - Psychedelics
01:12:36 - Discern pattern and practicality
01:17:15 - Creating new religions
01:22:13 - More open discussion in the West + wokeness
01:27:54 - Orthodoxy and orthopraxy
01:29:29 - Spirituality without religion
01:34:01 - How to avoid the dark side of dogma
01:35:15 - Self-flagellation is pride
01:37:30 - Continue: the dark side of dogma
01:39:28 - Antidote to pride
01:41:55 - Self-reference being psychologically detrimental
01:43:13 - Humility vs pride
01:45:20 - Beauty and artistic idiosyncrasy
01:46:29 - Serving your audience
01:49:45 - Dante
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My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.

Опубликовано:

17 авг 2024

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Комментарии : 54

@DrMichaelMoeller Год назад

The opening clip Jonathan very much describes me after an ayahuasca experience. God glory to God that is no longer my perception of reality. ☦

@sebastienberger1112 Год назад

Same here but with huge amount of psilocybin. I'm soooo grateful God was patient with me and also aloud me to suffer enough to realise my pride and selfishness and that I needed Him. Glory to God.

@RNCM_Philosophy Год назад

Thanks so much for sharing our video!!

@shanecawelti Год назад

For free what a steal😅🎉

@artdanks4846 Год назад

Looking forward to watching this video! As a Chanter/Reader and Choir Director in an Orthodox Church, I imagine this will be quite insightful!

@arlentolentino4369 Год назад

I'm a music producer ... I've notice that one of the reasons that some people struggle with producing music is that they don't get the patterns in the music... They get lost... Like they think everything is random.

@carlotapuig Год назад

The main goal of innovation should be to serve God and praise him IMHO

@betterdaysahead3746 Год назад

Love this. Thank you all.

@missh1774 4 месяца назад

This was very informative. Thank you JP

@SimpleAmadeus Год назад

This insight that humility is fundamentally external is very important for me to learn about right now. Thank you.

@suppression2142 Год назад

As someone with experience with psychedelics he is fully spot on, in his analysis of it.

@improvisedchaos8904 Год назад

I have allot of experience with psychedelics as well- would have been classified as a "LSD Fiend". "Lucy" called "herself" "Lucifer's glasses" to me. It was fundamental to my witchcraft; which I practiced obsessively (was garnering results; no man returns to empty wells.) Music was extremely important during my "trips". I had preset 12+ hour long playlists set ahead of time. The connection between psychedelics and music is extremely important- however a third component is what ties the two together; breath. The timing of the breath, direction of the breath was core. Inhaling being likened to raising up a spirit; holding inhale like maturing the spirit raised, exhale to live as that spirit, holding exhale to die as that spirit. With this cycle in mind, they raise up- and *pin in place*; an unholy spirit that they are blood oath bound to. (What goes up, must come down; unless pinned in place.) It's difficult to not find a song that either is consciously or unconsciously (debatable) raising up these spirits, speaking demonic tongues, and "painting all the flowers red." Music, movies, tv ads- follow this cycle, creating a space for such psychedelic rituals- in other words; it is a tool of initiation.

@marcus8710 Год назад

Do you see them as non-specific amplification? I can't make sense of a world where the evil one is responsible for the most interesting and love filled part of creation. But as amoral tools requiring discipline I could see it.

@improvisedchaos8904 Год назад

@@marcus8710 what are you perceiving as the most interesting and love filled portion? Also - as an "amoral tool" I disagree. The only reason I maintain my "cool" on high doses (most extreme LSD dose was 8,750ug) I had certainly mastered remaining still and calm- delving deep within and coming back without a lisp, or more immediate mental impairment. The only way you come back all squared away is because you know what's going on- what was going on is participation in sin. Stay away. The reason people freak out and run naked through the streets is because they couldn't overcome a shame; the more you overcome- the darker the shame that comes. Johnathan talks about this to a degree - the notion of killing demons brings forth larger demons. My last trip I had a visual where I was in a forest, a massive buck (legendary size and beauty) came out of a tree line; I scoped in on it to put in the kill. A hand on my shoulder gave to me the wisdom to not pull the trigger and slay the final monster deep within my subconscious.

@marcus8710 Год назад

Why is this present in the natural plant world? Is it something twisted that was intended to be good? Are we suggesting that the devil created something deeply spiritual? There are certainly Christian applications historically, not least of which are the mazetecan Catholics who use psychedelic communion and have since early contact with the Gospel. I'm genuinely interested in the subject and I'm open to your interpretations.

@improvisedchaos8904 Год назад

@@marcus8710 I think if we know why the plant exists, we would be more knowing why we couldn't eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil in the garden. Psychedelics "paint all the walls red", so that one can say there is no difference between the walls. Psychedelic cults have been a thing since early man; many false religions spawn from such. I kept a stack of notebooks logging details and ideas of trips; a stack of notebooks around 4ft high, created over years of frequent (4x a week at least) use. Nothing logged that is good and constructive to ones life was ever recorded. Every notebook was on creating structures with timed phonetic sounds that draw secret shapes for psychedelic rituals. I have a close friend who has a very scientific mind; together we recreated the MK Ultra experiments many times over years- effectively self torture on LSD. I learned allot; it's not terribly complicated to play a sequence of tones that'll black a tripper out onto the floor, wipe their recent memory, or fixate them on a loop. There isn't a single good thing that can be gained from a psychedelic that you couldn't obtain elsewhere. I'd argue if you discover the changes you desire on your own, they will be more impactful. Seemingly the trips that square people away and turn them away from the substance forever, as well as a life living for Christ- is a suicidally terrible hell trip. Having been in Psychedelic hell myself (a time loop that climaxes as it starts, and never ends. Individual atoms within the self gain awareness and are individually felt, yet collectively tortured.); I believe there are better ways of self introspection that does not come with massive risk to mind, soul, and body.

@Smyrna37 Год назад

The bible is a perfect lense to filter the world threw. Took me a while to figure this out tho

@naikhanomtom7552 Год назад

Yeah. Once it clicks, everything happening around you and around the world just makes complete sense. It's the best path to understanding our existence and human behaviour that's ever existed.

@nathaliealcantarana Год назад

I think the twisted transcendent experience is more so that the person cannot handle the experience in the same way the servant who touched the ark of the covenant in an inappropriate way to catch it from falling died. Which is why God chooses specific people to reveal himself whom He knows is not asking a child to carry a burden a child cannot handle It's like sending a five year old little girl to play rough with her ten year old brothers, but immediately, her brothers will hold back out of love for her and not wanting to hurt her

@ibelieve3111 7 месяцев назад

Thanks

@zynski3451 Год назад

Crazy that the kid mentioned the seagulls and their red dots. I remember studying the visual cortex vis-a-vis animation and came across a study that - if they painted two more dots on the seagulls beak (for a total of three) the chick would peck that much more furiously. Three times too furiously!

@RNCM_Philosophy Год назад

I'm the crazy seagull kid 😉

@mhjbnz Год назад

Ah! So glad you know of Christopher Alexander, Jonathan! I have often wondered if you've gotten into his rather long and overwrought (but ultimately basically correct, and revolutionary, in my view) series of books The Nature of Order? God in the patterns of architecture. Huge overlap with your worldview.

@vangoghsear8657 Год назад

Shyness is probably almost always a case of high intelligence too. I don't think it's all pride. People who know more and can articulate controversial truths but are too insecure because there's no space in culture for it. These people are more important to create open space for them. There's a fat chance they actually have important things the world needs to hear.

@vanessadavis3624 Год назад

I really hope to get a response from you Mr. Pageau because I'm curious to know your mind on the issue. It seems, from my humble study of scripture, that the primary times when scripture doesn't fall into a pattern is when women are involved, which is a pattern within itself. Certain scriptures regarding women, which are generally overlooked, are stories pertaining to women that seem very random and out of place both for the times of the story and the story overall. Deborah as a random general and judge, Miriam as a prophetess that seemed to have the ability to receive prophecy even from a very young age. The Queen of Sheba, Rebekah and her knowing, Sarai and her immaculate conception. What is the pattern of strange women in scripture and what is the symboliism behind it

@tensevo Год назад

1:29:29 Such a good question, and good answer, spirituality without religion.

@Morn1n5tar Год назад

If a punk was dropped in the Amazon was a little bit silly imo … 😆 none of us get to curate God and sometimes it appears he likes three chords and overflowing passion .. wotcha gna do!? 🙏❤️

@majinflaco8353 3 месяца назад

When people say all we are is frequency, vibration, and energy, what do you think of that?

@zachvinka6764 Год назад

Wake is always catching up. We don't exist. We reach, to exist. Pain is the void creating the desire to be filled, and to fill, it must reach. Music is just a small subset of gradian. Its similar to geometric color unity. Red is base is round is wet is objective. Blue is extenuating is sharp is dry is subjective.

@denisdenis5609 Год назад

Hello Jonathan, is it possible for me to voice your videos? I'm from Ukraine and I'm studying at the university to become an English teacher. I find your content to be effective and it makes people think and ask questions. I want more people to know Orthodoxy better. But I do not want to violate any of copyright rules. Is there any way of cooperation?

@redbeard0311 Год назад

I'm not connected with Jonathan in any way but I saw your comment and I just wanted to say don't be surprised if he doesn't see your comment. Perhaps you could find a more direct way of contacting him? I'm not sure. But I thought what you asked had merit and I'd like to see the cooperation you are looking for.

@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026 Год назад

Dr Iain McGilchrist does a brilliant exposition of Beauty in the chapter on Value in his great book, The Matter with Things. Page 1155 Starting from first principles, the essence of beauty is harmony, including its judicious violations: appreciation, therefore, not of things, but the relations between things that are simultaneously similar but different. This is a strength of the right hemisphere. Furthermore, given that in art the ambiguous and unexpected are important aspects of aesthetic preference and given that the sense of beauty depends on understanding implicit meaning and gives rise to a response that one cannot entirely separate from emotion; and given that the beautiful, and the sublime, can never be made explicit; and given that beauty is the most embodied of all values; there seems to be a prima facie case that the right hemisphere is going to play an important role in aesthetics.

@thomasblack9038 Год назад

18:21 I think a good example of modernism in music is Drake’s Search and Rescue. Its instrumentation, Melodies, and rhythms are extremely simple, yet invoke deep emotion (at least for me). This is very similar to the way color field paintings are stripped down to just the essence of the colors themselves, which work as one homogenous entity.

@improvisedchaos8904 Год назад

"Paint all the walls red so we can say there is no difference between them."

@MoiLiberty Год назад

A classic!

@grailcountry Год назад

Very similar take to some of the things John Tavener said, though Tavener held Mozart in very high regard.

@naikhanomtom7552 Год назад

The RNCM in Manchester? Strange syncronicity here. I'm from Manchester, my wife worked at RNCM when we met and partly due to your channel us and our kids are catechumens.

@RNCM_Philosophy Год назад

Hi! Yes, this was at the RNCM in Manchester - I set up the discussion after realising that the college has all the necessary facilities for online conferences, as part of my creative project for my degree 😊

@naikhanomtom7552 Год назад

@@RNCM_Philosophy Thanks for setting this up. Really enjoyed the conversation. As I say, I've been following the work of Jonathan for a while and along with others, he was one of the people that convinced me to attend an orthodox liturgy with my family and ultimately decide to be baptised. Showed my wife this video and she couldn't believe it either 😂. Good luck with your degree.

@RNCM_Philosophy Год назад

@@naikhanomtom7552 glad you enjoyed! In that case you might enjoy other conversations on my channel, particularly with Michael Sugrue and John Vervaeke! 😊

@naikhanomtom7552 Год назад

@@RNCM_Philosophy love the work of John Vervaeke so will definitely check it out. Thanks mate 👍

@konbouzikos Год назад

If we want the world to take music more seriously and see the pattern in music then we need to create Classical schools . Classical education is spreading throughout the world . Music is one of the seven Liberal Arts .

@SmiteTVnet Год назад

Shyness can be fear too though

@jbsweeney1077 Год назад

1:44:00 shyness as pride

@tensevo Год назад

God is simply the category of the unknown, unknowable prime mover.

@0live0wire0 Год назад

So Jonathan says concert music is too abstract and divorced from participation but then also slams pop music for being trite and overly participational (dance)? Then he says jazz is better because it's sort of a middle ground between entertainment and higher function. While I get where he's coming from, I don't agree with his take that abstract concert music cannot be inspired or exalt the divine outside of liturgical setting. In this regard, I'd even say that music has precedence over other artforms because it is abstract in essence and thus it's not subjected to the same risks of profanation of religious symbols when dealing with divine subjects. For example when I compose a symphony it may very well be an exaltation of God even though it may be considered "secular" music and by doing so it will achieve the requirements he set about participation and higher function.

@marklefebvre5758 Год назад

Moidernism? Materialism might be a better way to think about it. I have a video on that.

@AlexLGagnon Год назад

The margin is where the water falls down the ledge 😂🌈😭🎭

@AlexLGagnon Год назад

@@metaspacecrownedbytime4579 I can have a glimpse of it and it is glorious, brother.

@ethanb2554 Год назад

It's funny that right around the death of western music in the early 20th century, is right around the same time record labels started traveling around in the South recording African Americans on their porches with the new Recording Technology.

@carlotapuig Год назад

The black guy on the left was late and then didn't pay attention, pretty rude if you ask me 😕