Borthwick was an atrocious England captain, and he's an absolute charisma vortex. It pains me to say it, but I agree with Andy here. I really struggle to get behind an England team that is basically Leicester 2.0. He'll pack the squad with Leicester players, he's basically transplanted the entire Leicester coaching team into the England set-up (despite them having bugger all international experience), and we'll end up playing a dire, set-piece-and-kick-chase gameplan which will get found out the minute we play someone good.
I think you’re right mate sadly - we could actually have a very dynamic team if he blended the likes of Mercer, Smith, Arundell with some power players like Tuilagi, Billy V and Joe C but we’ll go back to the boring Leicester style and get blitzed by the big sides, as you say
A bit of revision regarding Borthwicks playing career? He was a good player, captained Bath moved to Saracens and 56 odd caps for England the last two as captain. I don't know him but why do you think he has no charisma ? Do you know him ? I doubt he would have had captaincy roles for club and country if he could not engage with the players around him. He us known to be obsessive with detail but that is more important than being the team joker . Why not wait until until yhe team is announced before making more assumptions? England haven't played a overly Leicester type game yet , more like he has tried to play around his set peiceore reminiscent to Sale. I don't want to burst yiur bubble but England will play to secure the set peice and kicking for territory then launch attacks from the opposition half. They are not going to play like Harlequins , this is low risk international rugby . Perhaps he will be bad but why not wait until he does before slagging him .alternatively if you really cant get behind Bortwhick go and support another team and suck the life out of their squad
As an England fan who actively wants to engage with and support the team, I would find it so much easier to do so if they took 'risks' on some players. I would much rather watch an exciting team of talented players like mercer and radwan do what comes naturally rather than have talented players forced to change to fit a mould.
I listened to Ben Stokes being interviewed last night after the last day of the Ashes series, even when he was asked about how great this side is he just kept talking about inspiring kids and bringing in new fans through BazBall, and I believed him and it seems to be working. Then I look at England rugby and and I just feel out in the cold, no engagement with me as a fan bar a few pretty boy shots of Marcus Smith on social media, and no desire to inspire on the pitch. It's just a steaming pile of crap coming out of Twickenham at the moment, and with the issues at club level we really need to be inspirational and engaging or we are going to lose our elite levels of the sport quite quickly I fear. The decision to eschew England and the premiership to go and play better, more exciting rugby for better rewards in France will become an easy decision.
England have been tedious for years. Even in a down period for the All Blacks they are box office to watch - the speed, the skills, the dynamism. Borthwick's England will have us pining for the Martin Johnson years... (joke)
Honestly, and being unbiased here as a Scot, I can see England losing to Argentina and finishing 2nd in their pool. Argentina have a clear philosophy with quality players. Whereas England have quality players but their game plan just looks a bit drab.
Yeah easily. I'm English and I prefer watching both Argentina and Scotland to England. The England squad is average and not exceptional. But they are boring for sure.
The comment around lack of engagement with fans is spot on. I live in France and recently wrote to the RFU asking if England had any open training sessions planned for the RWC (since I have failed miserably to get tickets via the disastrous RWC ticket sales platform). I was hoping to at least be able to go and see the boys up close and wish them luck....In short NO open sessions are planned.....major PR opportunity missed IMO...
Same mate We got a couple of tix but the RWC has told us that we need to now buy a full tix for our 18 month old baby... bonkers I asked the RFU is we could go to a training sesh with the baby and totally blanked us We are not exciting fans. However I do think that we make it to the semi and is anyones game
Thanks. The RFU is great with babies and kids. Babies up to 2 get in free and there's a big drive to get youths in the stadiums!! After being in the 2019 final I was hoping to be in the 2023 as well... After all... French are known for their au pairs....
I blame the RFU, utterly useless! Why Shaun Edwards isn’t at the helm is beyond frustrating England have wasted years and are wasting more and more , I feel for some players, outstanding all season for nothing! Favs as always!
Shaun has transformed wales and France over the last decade, the RFU have had many years to contact him for the role. He’s shown to be the best coach for years and he’s English, yet never ( his words) been approached by England. . Pure madness for me.
The best England coaches are leading Ireland, developing France, 'inspiring' Leinster to even bigger and better things and now at the helm at Racing 92.
The Mercer situation is crazy. France is way better than england, one of the best players from top 14 wants to play for england, moves to gloucester and then he is supposedly not good enough to be in the english squad? It seems really weird
@@andrewcavenagh9016 in 2015 top 14 was not à lot better than premiership, nowadays you see in european cups that there is a gap between top 14, leinster and the rest, including premiership, plus armitage didn't move back to england to earn that White Jersey. Still it's not just à matter if sélections since Jack Willis, who is excellent with Toulouse looks average when playing in White. So Mercer would not solve every problem with english rugby, but as à french fan, i'd start by getting him in the squad because he can be a hell of à player. Imagine being voted player of the year by the players when you are in the same league as dupont, aldritt, ollivon ntamack and then not being considered good enough to be a substitute in that england team. I would move right back to the sunny south of France if i were him
Agreed. Also, the selection of both Youngs and VP is ridiculous. Both of them will cost England 7,14, or more points per game, simply by kicking possession the opposition at every single opportunity. It has happened for years with them and they know no other approach.
Who were the other choices? Robertson was clearly holding out for the NZ job (which he'll get after the world cup). No one else really springs to mind.
@championthewonderhorse9733 Yes, I think it was always going to be NZ for Razor but you're right - England need that kind of character. Borthwick is clearly a good coach but is he amongst the best in the world? No. And is this job a good fit for a man who does not do media well and doesn't thrill when he's got millions of eyes on the national team. Goodey is right. Kids will want to be Broad or Bairstow or Stokes playing with heart and carefree. Adults and kids will want to watch it and will feel connected to the ethos.
Totally agree ..Arundel got the ball twice last time he played for England ..he could be totally world class but will he ever get the ball..he will for Racing 92 and just watch him go..I’m sort of supporting France even though I’m English ..I just love the way they play without fear
On top of that, all the players guaranteed to play have been playing the last 2 years and have been very mediocre. As always with England, anyone with flair and talent is sidelined.
@timmyhmusic but your reasoning is why he should change it up, the performance off these players have been dreadful and shown they very very unlikely to win a world cup so he should try new younger/fresher players. Imagine DC & JM and the majority trying to cope with say a NZ who pace/power in most if not all positions or SA who have power/pace...
Am going to Marseille games, and I'm looking forward to the Scotland vs SA game so much more than watching my own team against Argentina the day before.
100% behind Goodey’s analysis. No Mercer, No Mitchell, No Simmonds, No Murley ……. And no explanation. Yet Dombrandt & Slade are still there despite not having turned up in an England shirt ever & for 2years respectively.
Mr Goode is BANG ON with all his comments regarding Steve Borthwick as England head coach in this podcast. I believe the English fans will show their feeling by the lack of support in the coming WC. Why spend hard-earned money to watch a boring English team plod on. As an avid rugby fan I am tired of my team and find myself supporting other countries. I hope the WC in France showcases our wonderful sport to the highest levels and a northern hemisphere team lifts the Webb Ellis Cup.
My problem with Borthwick is that he has inherited a lot of past it players and players who played in a very poor 2022 team and they have ALL retained their positions, and any young talent has been shown the door. So we will go into the RWC with basically the same mediocre team that was below average in 2022, when we could have had the likes of Mercer, Mitchell etc playing. Instead it will be the same old ponderous guff from Youngs, Farrell etc.
I have never looked forward to a WC less than this year. We've had good teams and bad teams over the years but this is the first time I've not really cared. It's not just Eddie and Borthwick or the results, its all the stuff going on around the outside....tackle heights, red cards, none stop kicking, etc. It just kills my passion for the game.
@@kenrehill8775 Yep that as well. I would rather England go out early to good teams than get to a final, get thumped, and then have everyone think that rugby is not broken because of how far we got.
This is something the English don’t seem to understand. They keep talking about ‘how we play’ thinking ‘attractive’ rugby is the only thing that will bring fans in. As a bok fan I think you are all crazy. Play whatever style will give you the best shot at winning. When you are winning, interest will come back. U think player numbers took a drop in SA when we played the most boring rugby to win the 2019 RWC. Naaa Man U guys are off the pace here I think.
Also rassie Erasmus won the World Cup taking over the team with one year and the first thing he did was simplify and focus on the key parts of the game not playing an “exciting” style of rugby.
Erasmus took over in 2018, so he had 2018 AND most of 2019, 2x rugby seasons and nearly 2 years. And as you say he took the Boks back to basics and solidified a simple but incredibly effective gameplan. Andy 'Piers Morgan' Goode just doesn't like Borthwick and really has gone on a ridiculous rave here
It’s a proven fact that winning (by any means) is the only thing that boosts spectator numbers. Exciting ‘styles’ of play don’t make a difference. Also, the last time I checked, there were no points for style in Rugby, but there are in rhythmic gymnastics. It’s also worth pointing out that kicking has always been an integral part of the game, it’s called Rugby ‘football’ after all. There isn’t a single team in world rugby that can play ‘attractive’ rugby without first setting up a platform of set piece, kicking and strong basics.
You’re right but I think that playing in that physical attritional way, won’t work either. That’s the problem. So if you’re playing that way AND it doesn’t work that’s even worse 😂
I think Borthwick is an excellent coach, but the engagement thing - he’s right. I’d not thought of it, but I’ve never been less excited - less interested even in England at RWC. Includes ‘07 and ‘11, which were also not vintage teams. And I’m already ‘captured,’ life long fan and club season ticket holder. Yet I’m looking forward to the Prem more. Not good.
Argentina have just beaten Australia and come within a point of SA. Would anyone with an ounce of judgement really back England to do the same right now? Finiishing second in their group looks the most likely outcome to me, setting up a QF against Australia.
England were one dimensional under Jones and worse in 6 nations with Borthwick, can’t even see us making quarters in RWC, totally agree with you Goodey, someone needs to take the handbrake off the England squad and see how far they fly
Let's wait and see how England play in the warm up games before being critical, they didn't have enough time in the 6 nation's to really change much but now they have had time together with Borthwicks preferred coaching team so let's reserve judgement for now. Personally I couldn't care less if people think he's boring, what I want is excellence on the field of play and a team that we can be proud of .
Completely agreed mate. I think we are going to get tanked by Argentina and then struggle through the group. We will be dumped out of the Rwc by Australia. 😢😢
This podcast should be called the RUGBY’S KARENS It is even fascinating to watch “I don’t like the French they don’t speak English!” “I had a beef with him … in my head!” England need “to try new things!” Man your depth of analysis is stratospheric “England has a new coach - poor team no passion nothing ….” and yet like in any sport Karen deserve a victory or “at least we get a semi” Well you probably woke with one to be that optimistic!
Hard to fault this Goodey.....your comments about lack of engagement and involvement with fans is so true.....RFU lot to answer for and Steve Borthwick should have taken some risks and changes in 6 Nations to build for the World Cup.....I.e. World Cup 2023 ...not 2027...way its going is building for World Cup 2019
Like others watching this video, I totally agree with Andy Goode. I personally don't see Borthwick being in charge for more than four years at best .Bring back Lancaster
England should be looking to play at speed - recycling speed like Sarries and Tigers just lets the defence organise and smash the crap out of us. Get down to sub 3-seconds like Quins (who don't rely on up-front dominance) and you can keep a defence rolling back, you create 7 or 8 different attack vectors that the unsettled defence has to cover. Plan A again and again just tells the defence where to focus and the slow recycling means they are organised - same thing every time: 5-10 seconds minimum to set up another caterpillar ruck, so the defence is set up and blitzing and leave one guy in the back field to clear up the inevitable high ball to nowhere. As for "Dombrandt is poor, Billy is in form", lets be blunt: in a "poor" 6 nations, Dombrandt made 5.6m per carry and 83% of his tackles. Last time Billy played for england he made 4.4m per carry and 75% of his tackles. Domestically this season, Billy average 2m per carry, Dombrandt made 12,6m per carry. Dombrandt had far better defensive stats, as well as making 8 clean breaks beating 31 defenders and scoring 10 tries. And that was a "quiet" season for Dombrandt. Take off the Sarries-tinted specs and Dombrandt is a country mile ahead of Vunipola, who is slow, weak in contact and usually injured. In fact, he's still injured and not training in camp right now. Manu is not training because they don't want him *to get* injured. What idiocy is that? Mercer, I remain unconvinced, but take him and Dombrandt. Stop kissing Farrell's arse, as he has been declining at Test level every year since 2020 and was bloody awful in the autumn and six nations. Build a squad around Smith, bring in Finn Smith as the backup. roll the dice, as we'll be lucky to get out of the pools with the current favourite lineup and tactics, let alone challenge for a win. Build for 2027 and cull the 2019 era deadwood as Farrell, Youngs, Ford, both Vunipola's and Cole (how is he even near a test team?) and the rest should have gone long ago to allow us to develop the youth.
Watching the two games against Wales, I felt I would be better off sticking red hot pins in my eyes, it would be less painful. Come on England, prove me wrong !
Goody makes a very good point here too. Being a fan isnt just about watching the team grind out a result. We need entertaining (like England cricket have done). For me Borthwick is from an old era when the international game was different...hope im wrong, but never liked him as an England player...
I dont see how I get more engaged with the England set up while spineless, visionless Sweeney is in charge, a good clean out is needed. Borthwick maybe be boring but he is shrewd, if a better context and vision were presented to him as necessary he is smart enough to make adjustments in that direction.
Is he? I've not seen him ever change an approach to a game when the team was against the wall...they continue with the boring kick chance and play for opposition mistakes...this might work for the premiership (which has been in decline for a couple of years now) but against the best in the world that type of game gets you battered so sadly I'm not holding my breathe for any adaption during tough games this world cup.
Is this why he was appointed as England coach? Had the results with Leicester granted, but did the old farts in the RFU want someone they could potentially control?
Boring old England it’s been said many many times over the years The prem last 3-5 years has been interesting rugby but yet England remains same old Farrell show kick to the corner, defend like hell and hope for a few penalties I completely agree we need a plan b,c ~x,y,z also let the players play what’s in front of them
Looking forward to the Wales v England game here's where Gatland and Wales show where we are going into the World Cup, I think Hamilton and Goode are going to look a bit foolish with writing Wales off in past Rugby podcasts.
It's unfair to say we've been bad in the Six Nations in recent years. In fact, we've been aggressively mediocre: from 2021 to 2023, it's been two wins and three losses. So at least we've been consistent. Haha.
There is a difference between a club coach and an international coach. As a club coach you can bring players in, you have more time to work with players, to an extent you can get away with forcing your opinion through until the players get it. As an international coach you have less time, you can't make transfers, and the players may all regularly play against each other and not really like each other that much. Obviously you need to be able to coach either way, but I see the jobs as requiring different skill sets.
We have the players to win a World Cup but the coaching is hampered by our national identity. Will the likes of Arundell, Lawrence, Smith and Cokanasiga ever get their hands on quality ball? Not under Borthwick.
I don’t think it’s down to the coach to tell stories of the players and stuff to the press, that’s the RFU. As far as risks and “changing the narrative”, weren’t both EJ and Borthwick coaches when they played really exciting Rugby?
I agree with a lot of what Andy says but saying Farrell is head and shoulders above any fly half is a bit of a stretch, and conflicts with his position that England are boring. To me, Farrell is the epitome of England’s dull game play - win the percentages and kick the points with little creative output. I’m not saying Farrell is the issue but he’s definitely not the answer, and England are much more fluid with Ford at 10 and Farrell outside.
There is huge English talent playing in Premiership &France but only a few selected.As many say Borthwick a dull choice .Engl may not even make QF as will lose to Argies game 1.Depressing after wonderful Ashes series
I cannot fathom why Goodey loves Faz so much. England look at their bluntest with him at 10, and have done for years...?! Ford should start, Smith on the bench.
Im just not excited by the England rugby team. Win or lose i just hate the style we ended up playing under Eddie and its a very similar style under Borthwick. If you love how sarries play then you will love it. But I just want to see exciting, fast, ball in hand rugby. The physical kicking style just makes me switch off. I have also noticed negative vibes and low confidence in how some of the coaches and players have been speaking. Almost making excuses before the first ball is even kicked at the world cup. I will support because its my country, but all a little worrying!
England's peril has always been over conservative rugby: Scotland's peril is often trying too much. To make sense of this, Scotland have never had the physical bulk to suck the life out of the game: England have had talent, and chose to ignore it.
In just 4 games Eddie jones turned Aussie from the worst team to pushing the All Blacks to suffer a narrow 3 point loss to the ABs. There's no way Aussie aren't getting out of their group...
The lack of engagement and that point at least is valid. This rose, is boring. The guys are way too focused on being clean cut, media trained nice guys. Only the one with Care and Youngs was interesting. Because they seemed to open up a bit more.
« Rugby championship is so good at the minute » Whaaat ? The ABs were great indeed but SA, Aus were really poor imo. Argentina brave as usual. But besides NZ there were little to no flair. 6N was way better
Re Zach Mercer: Seemingly, everyone was asking for Dombrandt to come into the ENG squad and he's been pants. I wanted Mercer to have a chance too, but I don't get to see what the coaches see in camp and neither does Goodey. .Edit: "When has Jonny May played well recently?" Does the guy even watch rugby? I'd imagine he gets sent a highlights package each week... George Ford not anywhere near as good as Faz? Ignoring that Ford was/is still building back after injury, this is laughable at best, the nonsense Goodey is coming out with.
Classic Goode. Years of saying we need Simmonds at 8, then he isnt good enough and and we need Dombrandt at 8. Now he isnt good enough and we need Mercer. Typical theme amongst daft England fans. Always onto the next big thing.
Can't understand borthwicks decision especially with murley he scored the most tries in the gallagher premiership and it would seem like a no brainer to at least try him out in the summer nation series
The reality of the situation is that you can't have it both ways here Goodey. We signed / extended Jones for this world cup. Like him or loathe him, he usually turns up for a world cup and while most are jumping on the Jones is done bandwagon, he is usually vindicated in having some unexpected plan up his sleeve. Obviously things were on the decline prior to his removal, but we should have kept on and given him a chance, as we previously arranged. You and others wanted Jones gone. You were granted your wishes. Now, as you say, we are stuck with a relatively unproven and conservative coach, who is going to play it safe. He lacks inspiration and presence. Instead of attacking this World Cup with a pretty decent squad we have this kind, honourable bloke who is devoid of creativity and conviction to make the big calls. In his defence, what time has SB really had to make an impact with this team. You mention BazBall with Stokes and McCullum - they've had 18 months and sufficient time to remould the team. Crucially though, they have the right mindset. SB was never the man to make the big calls and for England to play with freedom.
As a cricket coach who shared an office with rugby coaches who wanted rid of Lancaster,( look what he's done for irland) was far better than charecter less Borthwic. A big mistake
Blimey - doesn't Goode love the sound of his voice!! Not a chance for anyone else to get a word in! If / WHEN Faz is the starting 10, then ask him who he wants inside & outside him & build the team around that - hopefully that will mean Ben 'two pumps before passing' Youngs will get nowhere near the XV
Borthwick defintely feels like the safe option and he is. Eddie was progressive as a coach for the first 4 years and it was suoer fun. There is no world where i would pick Mercer over Billy V though. Borthwick has picked what he thinks is best and you cant say the players that will be picked arent exciting. Malins, Watson, Cokagnasinga and Arundell are the most excinting wingers and probably the best.
Couple of things. Ford is in no way a poor man’s Farrell. Very different in the way they operate at 10. Structures around them also very different. But have to agree that we need a way of beating the best sides in the world and that isn’t by doing what we’ve been doing since and including the 2019 final.
Mate, with the money the RFU has, with the limited amount of time left till WC23 when they fired the Japanese warlord, they appoint Borthwick effectively setting him up to crash and burn at the absolute, absolute wrong time. Jake White, Steve Hansen a tried trusted man should have been hired to take us through to the WC. Look and learn how the bloody best do it. Robertson has just been appointed to take on a full world cup cycle with the ABs from next year.
It’s likely that he’ll end up with a semi final against his name, but not because he’s a top coach. If they make it to the final, we’ll that’s a different thing
@@kenrehill8775 we ALL love Borthwick, but we all also know he is under cooked and England's unravelling last year proved as such with a one dimensional game plan, broken set pieces, no cohesion with the backs and zero parity up front. If they get past Eddie Jones's Wallabies then the utterly ridiculously talented Al Blacks await, there's no way on planet earth Mitch Slade and Ollie Lawrence stop Reiko Ioane and Jordy Barrett. Anyhow, RWC just over a month away, can't wait!
Goodey - I don't understand when you say he doesn't let the players do anything to keep them shielded but don't they do that O2 RU-vid video series like every tournament, Borthwick's let them do that and lots of people watch that and you see (admittedly not all players) but you see a good fair few! maybe tune in!
Using Cricket as an example, a counterpoint to where England are in Rugby is interesting - ex England players are quick to rip into Bazball when it doesn't deliver but not the fans, the fans love the approach, the players buy in to it and the coaches communicate their clear vision - none of this applies to England Rugby and will not until we have a management structure that brings this about, is Borthwick this man - not for me. We constantly hear about how he is a student of the game, players are there on merit derived from continous high quality performance - and then you have Youngs, JVP, Coles, Dombrandt etc none of which were the week in week out stand out English performers in the Gallagher - i love rugby but I thank the sporting goods we have bazball
Agree with 99% of what you said but dombrandt is class at club level, always provides for Quins……. Yet to see anything from him at international so I agree there.
@@iannoble404 He had a stellar 21/22 season, dipped for me last season but I would not cast him adrift. Number 8 is a missing piece in the English jigsaw and I think he has struggled for direction in a pack that has struggled in general, Itoje, George, Curry etc have struggled to impose the pack in a game.
Proof is in the pudding. England kick, lose possession, lose the game. Against Wales forward possession 85%, trying to break defend off slow ball, fail and kick again and lose. Carr, Smith and Dombrant are their best off fast ball over multiple phases. They do that for Quins but not for England. That can only be coached strategy. Who is to blame? Mogadon Borthwick!
It’s a lose lose. If he takes risks and we don’t win people slaughter him. If we play boring people will slaughter him. And if we don’t win realistically it won’t be due to personality or charisma it will still be a hangover from Eddies mismanagement. Give the guy and the team a chance. This is a multi year process starting from a low point. Let’s see what the cycle after the WC brings. Just a constant negative media spin, you cannot implement a global turn around change at 10 and back line style of play in a few weeks. France and Ireland tactics evolved over years. I find it hard to engage with England when all the comments section and media is so negative 😂 Rassie won with SA through defence. Kicking. Scrum. It was strength in basics. Can’t have it both ways.
@@championthewonderhorse9733 playing exciting rugby takes time. Trying to play exciting rugby immediately will look a lot like missed passes, dropped balls, going backwards. People won’t respect that they will criticise. I believe they are playing to win with a game plan they can put together in the quickest time possible with the players available to them, I don’t think that’s play to not lose. Each to their own. I’m just going to try and support and get behind the squad 👍
Goodey- this is poor pal. You are chatting absolute rubbish we arent going to win this world cup we are too far behind the other teams, what are you talking about taking risks? Borthies has come in when this English team had been destroyed by Jones the last 3 years. It was a tough job to take and aside from a hammering by France we showed improvement. What do you expect him to do in six months??!!
Some really incisive points from Goodey on Blunderwick's lack of charisma The interview after the Cardiff debacle was laughable Looks out of his depth & not getting a senior attack coach ie the fella at Saints - Sam Vesty - shows his closed thinking Mind you disagree Smith is the answer. Cardiff showed his inability to unlock defences & cure Englands inability to score when we get in the oppo. 22. Issues are at 8 & 9 for me. Laughable selections
